"Livi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham." Hebrews 7:9Rich Organised churches love tithes. Saddleback church makes it clear that the full Gross not Net is given and to no one but them. If you are in a church which tithes I can almost guarantee that your pastors and elders have added up the number of people in the congregation estimated their income and then calculated how much money they should get each week. (Huge amount) Then been disappointed that your church rarely ever hits this mark.
Tithing is a wicked practice equal to re-instituting circumcision. The church that requests tithes says this: "Jesus is not sufficient to be our high priest and the death of Christ on the cross was not once and for all"
Israel Tithe Vs. Government Tax
The tithe was used to help the sick as the Livis had the tasks to examine the people and declare them clean or unclean. Also the tithe was used for those unable to look after themselves such as widows. Now in Australia might I point out that we pay 30-50% of our income to the government and our welfare system does the same humanitarian things as Israel. Perhaps far more considering the billions of dollars we pump into other countries. What tasks are the church's doing that warrant receiving such a massive portion of their congregations gross income?
Melchisedec and Jesus - A Perpetual Priesthood
Jesus is our high priest of the order of Melchisedec. First Melchisidec bought bread and wine representing the sacrifice once and for all Jesus was to make. Next Melchisidec was the King of Salam and was in no way related to Israel. This is so with Jesus for he could not come from Abraham's fleshly line and was without descent for Jesus is born of the Holy Spirit. Now with Melchisedec it is witnessed that he lives. This is so with Christ who forever makes intercession for us.
Abraham Tithed Only Once
The most important tithe of the whole bible was by Abraham who only ever tithed once and out of the spoils of Sodom and Gomorrah. Israel paid tithes to the Levitical priesthood however their tithes were only ever meaningful because their tithe was paid in Abraham who before they were ever born paid tithes to Melchisedec who represented Jesus. So now that Jesus our high priest has appeared should we go back to tithing to a church or priest which can never be perfected? Let it never be.
Tithing is Abolished
By the act of tithing you are saying there is perfection by the Levitical priesthood and the new covenant established in Christs blood is not sufficient. You can say all you like that: "10% is a good idea and principle" BUT how did you feel when you didn't tithe that one time? You felt bad didn't you? This is the curse of the law.
"for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith:" Matthew 23:23
Giving and the New Covenant
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loveth a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7
Isn't it so simple to give not the 10% which is a necessity under the law but purely because of the purposes the Lord places in your heart.
Further Reading
Hebrews 7 - Understanding Melchisedec can be hard but worth the time (Key to tithing)
Why Teaching Tithing Is Evil
Rands Rebuttal of this post - To get both sides of this argument
Interesting post.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct that we are under no compulsion to give 10%. In fact, 10% is a rather arbitrary number to pick (as I will explain in a second).
I'd be careful to not suggest that it is just mega-churches like Saddleback who say things like this. I have heard the same thing in multiple churches, and Crown Financial Ministry (which is not a church) says the very same thing. They do not always say it for their own benefit, but because they truly think that the bible teaches it (and they are afraid of passages like Mal 3).
However, for those who insist that the Tithe is still for today, I must ask why it is that you do not continue to follow the Tithe. Yes, you might give 10%, but unfortunately that would presuppose that the Old Testament only demanded 1 Tithe. Unfortunately, this is not actually the case.
The first and the most famous of the Tithes is "The Lord's tithe" which is 10% of one's annual income given to support the Levites. Passages that teach this type of tithe are in Num 18:21-29 and Lev 27:30, for example.
The second Tithe is called the Festival Tithe which is another 10% and is found in Deut 12:10-11 and v. 17-18.
The last of the Tithes was 10% every third year. This comes out to roughly 3.33% per year. This is the Poor Tithe in order to provide for those who could not take care of themselves. Deut 28:14f, for example.
This totals to about 23.3% of our annual income. If you are faithfully giving this much, then God bless you. If you are not giving 23.3% then you would have a hard time arguing that the Tithes out to still be in place.
However, the other problem is that we shouldn't stop here. Why just keep the Tithes? If our Hermeneutical method allows for Tithing then it allows for a whole bunch of OT laws/commands that we no longer follow.
So then, what is the alternative? Give nothing?
Well, the best passage in the New Testament is 2Cor 9:6-8. Let us heed the advice of Paul:
Now I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed".
And now, because I have discussed this enough times, I can guess the objection: "Didn't Jesus tell the Pharisees that htey should keep tithing?"
Indeed he did. However, there are two concerns, first obviously the New Covenant was not in play yet. The obvious corollary is that the Pharisees were still under the Judaic law that would require them to pay Tithes.
The second point is that God told them that they needed to tithe, correct, but God told the rich young ruler that he needed to sell everything. God also commended the widow who gave 100%. We do not get to pick and choose which conversation of Jesus that we like. If someone claims that Jesus says to give 10% then I have equal right to suggest that Jesus says to give 100%. In fact, the overwhelming teaching is that all money belongs to God and that we should live in light of that reality.
In Christ alone,
mike
Wow Mike:
ReplyDeleteYou touched on just about everything there.
Yes you are right that it is just not the mega churches. I used Saddleback as an example because it is Rick Warrens church and his influence stretches far and abroad.
Unfortunately I do not know of a church in Brisbane Australia that doesn't preach tithing except a home church I visited once where the guy said.
"If you give me your money I will tell you to perish with it"
Thanks for the post. I agree with it all. I grew up in churches that taught tithing. Interestingly my parents weren't faithful tithers. Not until I heard a sermon series preached by John MacArthur,against the tithe, I felt free to give, and I wanted to give more than 10%.
ReplyDeleteThanks again for the post.
'"Not until I heard a sermon series preached by John MacArthur,against the tithe, I felt free to give, and I wanted to give more than 10%."
ReplyDeleteAnd that, my friend, is the heart of Biblical Giving.
"Unfortunately I do not know of a church in Brisbane Australia that doesn't preach tithing except a home church I visited once where the guy said.
ReplyDelete"If you give me your money I will tell you to perish with it""
Haha. There are problems with that to (as i'm sure you are aware) but it does suggest that his heart is facing the right direction.
In Christ alone,
mike
Good post -very thought provoking.
ReplyDeleteI have experience two sides to this mindset –both of which are wrong:
For many years I was taught the ‘10% or die’ rule. And later in life I experienced the ‘blessings’ argument –that is, the pastor would often say things like “Someone asked me whether they should tithe on the gross or the net, and so I answered them: ‘do you want a gross blessing or a net blessing.’”
Both present the curse of the law, one does it out of legalism and trying to reduce godliness to a set of rules, and the other one is based on the greed of the pastor and his ability to manipulate his audience by appealing to their lustful desires.
Last year there was a pretty bad ice storm here in GA (an ice storm this deep in the south is bad news). It just so happens that the storm fell on a weekend, and traveling on that Sunday was near impossible. Everything was closed, and all the churches in the area cancelled services. Wouldn’t you know it that a few days later I received a typed letter from my former church (you know how Baptists will leave you on the role for years) where the pastor was reminding everyone to ‘double up’ this upcoming weekend because ‘just because we didn’t have church, doesn’t mean that you get to skip that 10%’.
SDG
I agree that tithe is an Old Covenant deal and was kinda like a tax, but if someone wants to give 10% that's great. God bless 'um.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with folks that say that your giving should primarily be to your local church. I think that Galatians 6 backs that up.
Hmmm...
ReplyDeleteSorry PB, but I don't agree with many statements in this post.
First, you title is wrong. There is nothing wrong with tithing in and of itself.
Second, I fellowship in a church in which all members, at the very least, tithes. The pastors and elders are kept ignorant of who gives what (only the treasurer knows, and he's sworn to secrecy).
Third, while instituting the practice of tithe as a means to favour and salvation from God is wicked and equal to legalism, the practice can be done in a godly way, just like any other tenet of the Law. Honouring the Lord's Day is another example of this. Would you say that a serious believer who takes the Lord's Day as a day unto God, in which he does no work but applies himself/herself to God is wrong?
Fourth:
"What tasks are the church's doing that warrant receiving such a massive portion of their congregations gross income?"
Please do not be offended, brother, but this is a terrible statement showing a lack of vision. I know missionaries in the field today that live on rice and barely have enough funds to keep a roof over their heads. I don't know of any faithful church that couldn't find a way to use more funds for God's honour and glory.
Fifth, Jesus was a perfect Man. Therefore, his flesh was from the line of Abraham. If this isn't so, then all the prophecies made from Eve all the way to the Conception would be unfulfilled.
Sixth:
"But how did you feel when you didn't tithe that one time? You felt bad didn't you? This is the curse of the law."
Or it could be the Holy Spirit convicting the saint of a lack of spiritual giving. I give at least 10% to the Lord. AT LEAST. I don't think that any respectable saint can give less.
Brother PB, I don't want to argue or insult you in any way. I simply ask you that you reconsider these views in light of 1 Timothy 1:8:
"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully."
You paint this subject with a very broad brush. I do not ascribe to any of the heresies you mention in this post, and yet, I, AT LEAST, tithe.
Tithing IS a good principle, one clearly set out in Scripture. It can be an excellent tool to remind saints of their responsibility toward giving. And when I speak of giving to God, I'm not only speaking of money, but also time; I believe saints should, AT LEAST, tithe their time as well.
Food for thought, I hope,
Rand
Side note:
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I do not believe a pastor/elder should demand tithing from any saint. There is no place for that kind of commandment in the New Covenant.
That said, I have no problem with a church teaching the benefits and importance of saints giving AT LEAST a tithe.
My 0.02$... actually, make that my fundamental 10%,
LOL
Rand
Rand:
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments. You make no mention of Melchisedec. Which is the basis of this post. Actually no one has? Melchisedec is the start of the "meat" in Hebrews. If you can manage please read Hebrews 7 a few times. Your thoughts are more of a tithe being a good idea rather then a scriptual one related to the NEW COVENANT.
The moment people start preaching tithing to say that they need your money they usually need to put in the carpet or make the building better. (Most churches only tithe 10% of their 10% to missions (see saddleback)) I have a problem with this. If they were to live by faith they would come straight out and say to the congregation look we believe the Lord is asking us to contribute this much, this is what it is for, please pray about this and decide weather it be NOTHING or $XXX.XX that you give.
Malachi 3:9 makes it clear that when you fail with tithes then you are robbing God and will be cursed this is not the Holy Spirit Convicting you this is the curse of the Law. If Christ did not set us free from this then all is in vain.
So if you found out that one of your members were not tithing the full 10% what would you think of them?
Does your congregation agree that all the men should be circumcised?
My Sabbath Rest is in none other then Jesus Christ. For I like you could never fullfill it. This does not mean that my Sunday is spent partying I am merely saying I do not ever think that I could do this by the flesh. Can You?
Here is a verse to consider in relation to the Timothy verse you left me (I am not calling you foolish it just proves a point)
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians 3:3
This relates to tithing, circumsision, Keeping the Sabbath. I think it is important that we continually check that we are not going down this road but are instead living by faith. The road to the law makes you feel IMPORTANT after all you are doing something that another brother isn't. This is a loaded question but would you feel better in Gods sight because you keep the Lords Day holy and tithe every week over 10%. Does this make you better then someone who transgresses on these laws?
As is made very clear in Psalms, Hebrews and Genesis Jesus like Melchisedec is without descent from them for he is conceived of the Holy Spirit and is the firstborn of the many. Of course Mary and Joseph can be traced back to Abraham to fulfill the prophecies. (NB. Melchisedec is a shadow eg. he bought bread and wine Jesus used his own blood and his own body)
I do appreciate your comments Rand. I know so many people that find out they disagree with me on a point and instead of confronting me they merely write me off. After listening to your mp3 sermons I am convinced of better things.
Sincere Regards.
PB,
ReplyDeleteWe are completely agreed that tithe is NOT a commandment for the church age. That said, I believe the Scriptures are clear that Christians should be known for their giving (which IMHO exceeds 10%). Consider the end of 1 Timothy 6 and 2 Corinthians 8.
We are also agreed that in many churches, money is NOT well spent, but that most certainly doesn't mean Christians should stop giving! It means Christians need to go to better churches. Think about it: should a Christian stop partaking of the Lord's Table because some souls in the church eat and drink without examining themselves?
I didn't deal with your analysis of Melchisedek because, IMHO, it's a non issue. Pretty much the whole teaching of Hebrews is against Legalism; but we're not talking about Legalism here. If I keep the Lord's Day holy unto God, does that make me a legalist? The example of Melchisedek in Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with Tithing per se; the point is that Abraham submitted to Melchisedek and that Melchisedek's priesthood was imperfect. Which I agree with completely.
We are not made complete through tithing or any obedience to the Law. But we are sanctified by these.
You ask: what I would think of someone who doesn't tithe? I don't think much of any saint who can't find a way to give AT LEAST 10% of all he has unto God. Sorry if this offends.
Finally, circumcision is a poor parallel; actually, it's no parallel at all. Circumcision was a mark of God's covenant. It wasn't an act that brought about any salvation or sanctification (Ahab was most likely circumcised... you know what I mean?). Comparing this physical mark to say... the poor widow in Luke 21, is more than a stretch.
Tithing is not a the minimum or maximum standard of church giving. It is an example CLEARLY shown in Scripture. Consider: there is NO COMMANDMENT in the New Testament stating that Christians should congregate on the Lord's Day. Yet, we read that the saints in NT times gathered and worshipped on this day. We use their example to formulate our day of worship; and there is NOTHING wrong with that. Following godly principles and practices are of great benefit. Tithing is no different.
That's it now. That's my position and I believe it is Scriptural, and sound. Hope you come to see merit in all this.
Later,
Rand
Thanks for your comment Rand: You have made your point so their is no need to respond unless you feel you should. The question marks are there to prove a point not per-say request a response.
ReplyDeleteMelchisedek and tithing a non issue? Hebrews devotes a whole chapter to this showing how all the tithes past and present are in Abraham who tithed ONCE to Melchisedec.
You missed the crucial point of Hebrews 7:
The whole point is that tithing to the Levitical Priesthood was not sufficient. Not Abrahams tithe to Melchisidec who represented Christ. This tithe was done ONCE because it WAS SUFFICIENT because it was done by faith and as part of the promise "without contradiction the less is blessed of the better"
Is Christ being our high priest not sufficient that we need to load up the Christian by tithing AT LEAST 10% of their GROSS income? Then if they don't "not think much of them" This is horrible Rand and yes it offends! I know people who have been broken because of this heavy YOKE you are prepared to place on their backs. Do you know all their circumstances? What gives you the right to say that they should give at least 10% every week of everything? Are they not complete and sanctified by Christ already? Are you not willing to trust in the Lord to speak into their heart the amount they should give? Why go back to the flesh on these issues?
I would like to summarise what I think to be a more excellent way:
Isn't it so simple to give not the 10% which is a necessity under the law but purely because of the purposes the Lord places in your heart.
I believe one week this can be 0% or 100% and will never load my brothers and sisters in the Lord up with any fleshly formulae.
i tend to agree with most of your arguements PB. what i dont understand however, is the leap from tithing not being required to thus being wicked or wrong. under Jesus' Grace for my salvation and being free from the law i am now free to eat pork, but does that mean it is wicked not to?
ReplyDeletethis part of your statements just dont make sence to me.
I don't agree at all with this post, and Lord willing I'll post a response today or tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great discussion, I am enjoying both sides because this is an issue I am trying to work out myself. So I'm carefully listening to the strong arguments of both sides.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the Mechisedec argument goes, if Jesus is of the order of melchesedec, and abraham paid tithes to that order why shouldn't we still pay tithes to Christ through His Church. He is our priest. My comment here is not speaking of what, or how much we should give, but it seems plausible that we should give something.
Working it through,
Doug
but it seems plausible that we should give something.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. The question is not whether we ought to Give (giving is all over the bible), but whether this Giving and Tithing have anything to do with each other (i'd suggest not).
In Christ alone,
mike
MDM:
ReplyDeleteBecause of the curse and bondage that people place themselves under when they tithe by the law instead of a more excellent way ->GIVING<- and by faith. There is freedom in giving and bondage in tithing.
Doug: Christians are the most generous people I know. This is because of the freedom they have in Christ whom they are slaves to not because they are slaves to the law and all its ordinances for the ordinances such as tithing which spoke against us are nailed to the cross. (Just think of the curse you receive if you miss tithing just once Malachi 3:9) Therefore we give because of what the Lord places in our heart not of necessity but from faith and by His Spirit.
Mike: Look what happened in Acts with the first converts they gave away all their possessions. Then what happened is later they realised they had to eat so the other saints had to support them. In the early church they would look after the widows ("widow in deed") and many other great things.
I love how when Paul was telling of the freedom we have in Christ in going to the gentiles Peter and Barnabas thought they would be pious so they said "Remember the Poor" then Paul says OF COURSE we remember the poor we are eager to do this.
In churches who demand tithes they think that their church can't possibly do it by generosity and giving from the heart so they go back to demanding a tithe.
To him who is pure all things are pure Whenever people hear that we are free in Christ they think we will go off the rails so instead of being lead by the Spirit they quickly revert back to loading us up with the LAW.
OBVIOUS POINT
If I get $10 a month and tithe $1 then I have $9 to live off. This is very difficult. $1 can go a long way when you only have $10
If I get $1000 a month and tithe $100. I still have $900 to live off this is so easy.
If you are on a big income and tithing is easy for you. You can say to the poor TITHING AT LEAST 10% is EASY and should be a bare minimum I tithe sometimes 20% or 30% no dramas.
I was just told by a friend that there was a guy who use to tithe 90% of his income can anyone here beat that? Off his remaining 10% he was STILL able to fly around in jets and visit where he pleased because of his wealth. Is tithing really as fair as we are lead to believe?
In light of the fact that communism DOESN'T WORK and we are not all equal financially are you willing to first think yourself noble because you tithe AT LEAST 10% and next do you still feel comfortable telling someone on half your income that they should tithe 10%
I know I will be frowned upon for this statement but I will say it anyway. If the Lord willing I was asked advice about how much should I give from someone who was "Poor". I would tell them look I WOULD NOT GIVE 10% this is to much of a burden for you financially. Decide in your own heart how much you give and live by faith in this area from week to week. Do not commit to something you can not handle and trust the Lord to provide for you. I think this answer to be sound and justified in light of the NEW COVENANT. I am sure most of you would do the same thing.
Mike,
ReplyDeleteThanks for responding. Just to clarify my comment when I said it is plausible that we should give, I meant "required" to give. Regarding calling giving tithing, the writer of Hebrews called it tithing to the melch preisthood so I don't really see it as a problem
Puritan,
Think of the curse that comes upon you if you commit adultery or some other serious sin, does this mean that you are under the law. Would it be legalistic to say that you are required by God to not commit adultery.
Enjoying the discussion and friendship,
Doug
Doug:
ReplyDeleteYou have bought up a great point here and I believe this is where we must bring out the word Grace.
Before I start let me say I am talking about people who are saved NOT the Unsaved.
In relation to it being a curse
I think the Lord would severely chasten you if you be his child and you went down the road of adultery. But curse you I will be bold and say No you are not cursed for Christ became your curse on the cross. This is where I err in grace and not Law Doug. Even in a ha-nous sin like Adultery if you be the Lords Child he would work it together for good. For example From Bathsheba and Davids Union came Solomon. Why didn't the Lord decide to choose one of Davids other Sons to make pure instead of Solomon. I say purely because this was the Lords purpose so that his glory might be shown and perfect plan be unveiled. For as Paul boasts. In my weakness you are strong.
To summarise: I do not believe that a born again christian who has the promise that God is working everything together for good that he would be cursed in any sin he commits. CHASTENED most certainly. If someone want proof of this then spurgeon's sermon on Chastisement I found most helpful.
Next, Tithing is an ordinance of the old covenant related to the levitical priesthood which is now done away with that Jesus our High priest has appeared.
Abraham tithed ONCE because it was sufficient. It makes it clear that he never tithed again. Of course he would have been generous after this because he was living by the promise.
Therefore I say we are FREE not to commit adultery for we have the law written on our hearts and minds namely it his the Holy Spirit within us now. We are freely lead by Him into the Joy of the Lord willfully choosing the things of God for we love them. I know I am being picky but I like the way of Grace rather then the way of the law eg DO NOT, You must do etc. I believe this to be the way that Romans talks and what prompted Paul to say What then now that Grace abounds should we go on sinning. GOD FORBID...
I don't see how you could argue from Heb. 7:98ff that we ought to tithe. The only purpose of the illustration is to show the superiority of Melchizedek over Abraham (and thus the superiority of Christ over the Law). It would be my contention that we have ventured into eisegesis when we beging to demand that this passage say more than it actually says.
ReplyDeleteIn Christ alone,
mike
Mike:
ReplyDeleteHeb. 7:98ff ?
Oops
ReplyDelete7:8ff. I had written 7:9 but changed it to 8ff. Apparently I need to work on my back spacing skills.
Puritan and Mike,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your thoughts. As I mentioned earlier I'm still working through the issue, and your thoughts and arguements are helpful as I consider the tithe.
God Bless,
Doug
Np.
ReplyDeleteThat is the purpose of Christians contenting for truth amidst one another.
In Christ alone,
mike
An excellent article, Mr. Belief.
ReplyDeleteChrist loves a joyful giver indeed. This is sound advice from God to the New Testament believer.
Those who oppose this teaching might want to reasses the god they worship!
I've finished my post on tithing. I would like to dialogue on it and hear what you have to say about it.
ReplyDeleteTithing
Since I don't think Biblically it could be said, the moral grounds for tithing still exist.
ReplyDeleteDoug:
The Moral grounds for giving have always existed and are best summed up below. I personally think this to be the best verse in the bible on the topic.
"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loveth a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7
The Law of tithing no longer exists as I think this post and the comments show. Think about my scenario of OBVIOUS POINT a few comments above. Are you willing to load up another saint on 5% of your income with the law of tithing?
There is blessing in giving not the law of tithing. Because giving comes out of the heart and tithing from necessity (See verse above.)
However you are right it must really be the Lord that shows you this for my words here could all be misguided unless the Spirit of Jesus testifies to their truth in your heart.
Puritan,
ReplyDeleteMay the Lord drive us all to the scriptures to seek His truth.
Looking forward to future posts and future discussions.
God Bless,
Doug
Mike Garner nails this one. this a heart issue and not one of the law. It has been my experience that believers in love with their Lord do not need to be coerced, threatned or even basically reminded to give. They have a heart after God's and give willingly and wholeheartedly.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment Jada, Yes Mike did bring out some great points.
ReplyDeleteSteve Camp said this on his blog when tithing was bought up
One point of clarification for you: tithing is an Old Testament concept equal to paying taxes today. Under Jewish theocratic law, people had to pay three tithes (or taxes) that would amount to about 23.33% of ones income. Where did the 50% figure originate you mentioned... the same place that global warming did maybe?
BTW: the New Testament model for giving is found in 2 Corinthians 9 where I would direct your thoughts.
Found in the comments on this page
He bought out a very similar point to Mike in the opening comment.
Stephen:
ReplyDeleteNo need to go to the tithe unless you need money so much that you are willing to replace the eternal gift for an extra buck!
Very true. Tithing certainly is a wicked practice.
You know what is saddest of all to me. I used to get into these kinds of theological debates back in Bible College with all of my friends.
ReplyDeleteBut I've since found out a sobering reality: The world doesn't give a damn about the stufff we're fighting over. All they care about is that Christians are wrangling over stuff they've never even heard of. They could truly care less.
The sad truth is, the more theologically obscure our discussions become, the less relevant we become.
I could get into this whole issue of Melchizedek, Abraham, Levi, Christ, Heb. 7, whatever... but somebody please tell me, what IS the point?
Oh yeah I forgot for a minute--there's a world out there dying and going to hell because they doin't know Christ, but we're over here fighting over freaking TITHING. Wow.
Clint:
ReplyDeleteIn my talks with people who when confronted with a topic to do with scripture say:
.. there's a world out there dying and going to hell because they doin't know Christ, but we're over here fighting over freaking TITHING.
or instead of tithing they might say law or church leadership or the deity of Christ.
I find that they are the last ones to actually evangalise. If the very heart of scripture is not worth getting right to them why would they even bother in soul winning?
This really is the heart of your comment:
The sad truth is, the more theologically obscure our discussions become, the less relevant we become.
The truth is we are not to be relevant and we are not to try and appease the world. For God is well pleased with the foolishness of the gospel preached unto salvation.
Again, what you said makes my point more eloquently than I could have: My point is, it's not about being "right," or proving a point, or "getting to the heart of Scripture."
ReplyDeleteIt's about any hill deemed worth dying on, it's about infighting, it's about the whole mentality that feels like it has to defend capital "T" truth at all costs.
And yes, surprisingly I do agree on one point: many times, those who sit around and argue theology do that in place of evangelism. But it's more important to be "right" than to have relationships. Why do you think the world doesn't care?
Please read what I wrote again it says the opposite to what you thought it did.
ReplyDeleteHard to find a church in Western Australia, that doesnt preach the tithe. I see the tithe as not relevant for the New Testament Church. And would love to know of Churches in WA that don't preach the tithe. In fact I have been barred from membership at my church. AOG as I will not tithe.
ReplyDeleteRod
ReplyDeleteI wonder about churches that require "membership" as well. We are born into the kingdom by the Spirit not on the dotted line.
When the church is lording it over you so that they discommunicate you because of not tithing it shows what state the church is in.
What do you do with Malachi 3:10-12 - what of the Old Testament do you still accept?
ReplyDeleteIf you read it carefully it is a call. It is a challenge to at least give the 10%. The New Testament gives it more shape. The Old Testament and the New Testament discuss the same view of God from two different perspectives.
Just like Thou shalt not kill has become do not hate your brother without a cause. Same fact just a different depth.
or
Thou shalt not commit adultry has become do not lust. Same fact just more depth.
The Old Testament is not done away - it is fufilled. It has gone from the action of the hand to the intent of the heart.
The tithe did not go away, it just became fuller and deeper.
Please visit theundershepherdsobservations.blogspot.com/
for more information on this and other subjects.
Me and my wife gave 31,000 in income tax last year which is over 40% of our income.. The tithe in the old testament was like our present day income tax which serves as meeting social needs and takes care of the poor, so in essence, we give almost 50% of our income.. and on top of that, we give over and above to the church.. Argue all you want, NT scripture KEPT IN CONTEXT, does not support the notion of a 10% tithe.
ReplyDeleteI recently left a church on mothers day where the pastor preached an entire sermon on tithing. He was saying some of you and you know who you are arent tithing very much or anything at all and For that i am very disappointed and cant support you. I sent him an email telling him that he was preaching false doctrine by preaching legalism. I sent him another email with several scriptures proving my point. He got furious and demanded an appology which he will not be getting. I also told him about rick warren and he became very defensive. I am glad that i left that cult!!
DeleteVery Interesting Topic Friends:
ReplyDeleteHere is my little INSIGHT:
1)BEFORE THE LAW
- Abraham tithe ONCE to Melchizedek, this was NOT a COMMAND from Almighty GOD. So Please lets stop making a law where there wasn't one. That's for every Leader, Pastor Deacon etc.. who make-up commands.
2)Jacob made a promise VULUNTARILY to GOD that if he bring him back to his people he would give yes GIVE a tenth of everything he has. Agin this was not GODS idea but Jacobs idea. So please do NOT make a command where there isn't one.
THE LAW OF MOSES:
- The commands regarding the LAWS started back in Exodus, into Leviticus and onwards. There are a HOST of commands from GOD to the ISRAELITES: and yes I capitalized ISRAELITES because it was specifically to them at that period in time. If any person wants to dispute that then let them go ahead and try following EVERY command that GOD gave Moses for the Israelites - they are NUMEROUS. We are no longer under the law of Moses so the tithe mentioned in Levitisuc does not apply to us.
The FAMOUS book of Malachi and chapter 3:10 is ALSO directly to the children of ISRAEL and more specifically the PREISTS. If anyone don't believe this statement please start in Malachi 1:1 and don't stop reading untill you reach Malachi 4:4.
First Malachi 1 - "I am Malachi. And this is the message that the LORD gave me for Israel". Does anybody want to dispute that???? I didn't think so. How about 4: 4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel. Anybody wants to take a shot at disputing this crowning verse?? What is so difficult about that friends? PLease rightly DIVIDE the word of GOD.
Nowhere in the New Testament are we commanded to tithe as New Testament Belivers. It is clear in Hebews 8:13 ."By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." why do we christians still have a problem with the word OBSOLETE? God does NOT dwell in temples made by hands anymore: our BODIES are the Temple of the Holy Ghost. The sacrifices of God are a Broken Spirit and Contrite heart GOD will not despise.
I can go on and on but I hope I shared some light on this contovesal topic of tithing. Everyone is FREE to give as GOD has blessed him - story end.
May GOD bless and enlighten the eyes of every reader, AMEN
Thanks for reading.
Well it seems that in Australia tithing is big. Many churches teach it and once again I try another church this time the Vineyard church in the same area as my AOG church and am told the same story that I cannot become a member as I don't tithe. Its obvious that Tithing is a big issue in my area.
ReplyDeleteI will continue to look for a non-tithing church but they seem difficult to find over here
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGreat write-up PB. I've been a Christian for 4 years and after reading the entire Bible not by its texts but the true meaning behind them, I came to understand that Tithing is not required of Christians today. Many Church leaders today quote a lot of Old Testament verses out of contexts when they're collecting tithes every week, and never actually teach the entire chapter that mentioned tithing. The local church I used to attend, VOH, is a branch of the Vineyard Churches, never teaches 2 Corinthians 9 when collecting tithes. I have questioned on this subject in that church and I became "blacklisted", literally.
ReplyDeleteHow I knew that what I received from the Biblical Teaching was the church leaders/elders' reaction and response to what I said-aggressively and defensively while directly commenting that I'm being used by the Devil in attempt to overrule the church's biblical teaching . Their reaction and attitude only confirmed that I poked in the right spot-like I burst a spore on one's flesh.
The point I've been trying to explain was that, tithing does not apply to Christians today as it was a Mosaic Law placed upon the Israelites mainly, under God's command. What Abraham did was an act of free-will out of his own heart in faith, to honor God, therefore it's completely irrelevant to the tithing churches are teaching today. What applies to us Christians today, the core is found in 2 Corinthians 9, though one should read both 8 & 9 to see the entire contexts. But the common response I get from other long-time Christians is: "how can you say Christians should not give to God? It's the most basic duty a Christian should do!!" Yet, never once did I ever mention or imply that a Christian shouldn't give to God...basically, they all tried to put guilt in my mind & heart for pointing out the truth of Biblical Teaching..
God didn't set a specific % for Christians to give is simple-everyone is in different financial state and 10% to someone who is not financially abundant can be a really tiny amount and might still be a burden; yet it may very well be tens of thousands or even millions to another. Now let's say, single mom with a $3000 job whom is supporting 3 children, a house, a car and all the expenses by herself, still needs to tithe 10% of $4000. She's both reluctant and in fear because that extra $300 may mean she won't be able to make her next mortgage payment, car payment or her kids can't eat well; all the while being fearful because the church she attends told everyone that if they wish to receive the full blessings from God, they need to give that 10%. Now, how is that in any way, biblical? Where is the truth in that? How is that type of church teaching not evil? It clearly puts guilt in the hearts of God's children and places bondage around them which in truth, is a blasphemy at best.
I can't stand people who quote bible verses out of contexts to the advantage of their argument/teaching. Believe it or not, the local church even SKIPPED 2 Corinthians 8 & 9 during the Sunday school bible study which I attended for over a year from 2006. Two other churches I went to also taught the same thing and needless to say, I stopped going as well.
I have no problem giving back to the Kingdom of Heaven in honoring Lord our God. But I have huge problem with anyone twisting the Word of God...or putting words in God's mouth-
Howdy,
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Who said anything about a "requirement" to tithe. Reguirements are Old Testament. In the New Testament, we have a higher motivation, but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with giving the tithe. The reason Christianity is feckless and has a ridiculous number of "denominations" (more than 250!) is because Christians insist upon creating an iron clad theology about their interpretations of Biblical meaning, what's important and what's not in one's faith walk. Most of what passes for doctrine is just someone's opinion. The decision to tithe or not to tithe ought to be between God and each individual believer. When Christians band together in unity (rarely) it's out of a sense of a powerful common desire to follow and imitate the life of Jesus Christ and to express love for the Body of Christ. Simple--but not easy.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed reading all of these posts. I am only 16, so my arguments may not be very strong, but I had to say something. I think that we should all give a tithe. I think that, at least for me, tithing has improved my relationship with God because when I don't have the money I need, I must lean on Him.
ReplyDeleteAs a Christian I don't believe that, if someone doesn't tithe, we should judge them. That goes against what James 4:12 says: There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
Another point I wanted to comment on was that I think that tithing can only help you. For example, if you tithe, you grow closer to God, but if you don't nothing bad happens. God is a loving God. Yes he is also jealous, but I feel his love prevails.
Love you all and God bless
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ReplyDeleteEvery chuech I've ever attended or visited hammered the tithe. Yet many who do tithe can't afford, often giving up basics such as food and clothing to pay the tithe. When I was earning minimum wage I could barely make ends meet, and tithing was out of the question. When I had a good paying job and thought I should tithe, it quickly became a burden not a blessing. God meets you where your at and would never ask more of you than you can give. Tithe was part of the Mosaic Law, which was fulfilled in Christ and a taskmaster for spiritual children. Only once is tithe mentioned in the early church, but never commanded to be practiced by it. In fact, the elders and Apostles met in Jerusalem and determined that Gentile believers were not obligated to the Mosaic Law as even the Jews could not obey it. There only request was to abstain from meat with blood or offered to idols and to refrain from sexual sin. "If you do this you are doing well. Tithe is nothing more than a way to control and opress His church, nothing more.
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