Puritan Belief

The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone.

Dummies Guide to Calvinism - TULIP

When a Calvinist answers Yes to one question people in their heart think they are answering No to another. So here is the quick and easy nondefinitive dummies Guide to Calvinism. Those well founded in the reformed doctrine of TULIP won't get anything new below but will reminisce those times you laboured passionately to reveal the answers.

T - Total Depravity
What is man depraved of? The Spirit of God
Before salvation is man dead in Sin? Yes
Does this mean we should do nothing for them? No
Can a depraved man choose Jesus? No
Should we tell him to believe in Jesus? Yes
Is it their fault they are totally depraved? Yes

U - Unconditional Election
Does God elect everybody? No
Do we know which people are elect? No
Can I elect myself? No
Can I help God elect someone else? No
Should I evangelize to people even if they probably aren't elect? Yes
Can I know if I am elect? Yes
What if I do good things will this give me better chances for election? No
If they will get saved anyway is there a need to preach the gospel? Yes

L - Limited Atonement
What is Atonement? The penalty of sin being dealt with in full on the cross. (Like forgiveness)
What is Limited? Not everyone or Very specific to the elect
Was the death of Jesus on the cross for every single human being? No
Should I stop telling unbelievers that their sins can be forgiven? No
If I do something wrong should I bother to confess my sins? Yes
Since God is a God of Love why doesn't he just Atone the sins of everyone? Because his glory is shown even in the destruction of sinners.
Then how can he blame sinners? Who are you oh man to answer back to God?

I - Irresistable Grace
Can I do anything to earn God's Grace? No
Can saving grace be rejected? No
Should I tell of Gods Grace to every single person? Yes
Does grace need to be "activated" or "accepted"? No
Will someone with this grace automatically Love God? Yes
Can someone with this Grace Hate God? No
If I have this grace can I give it away through my choice or sin? No
Should I pray for others to receive irrisistable grace? Yes
Can someone come to Christ without being first drawn by God? No
Will Christ save all who come to Him and believe on his name? Yes

P - Perseverance of the Saints
What is Perseverance? Continuing in Christ to the very end.
What is a saint? Someone who is completely sanctified (Set apart)
Is this the same as "once saved always saved"? No
Will every single saint persevere till the end? Yes
Should a saint stop worrying about the things of God then? No
Was someone a Saint if they fell back into sin even to death? No
Who makes sure the saints always persevere? Jesus

TULIP
Is the Free-Will gospel False? Yes
Does this determine if they go to hell? No
Then does it matter which gospel we preach? Yes
Should I preach TULIP to the unsaved? No, Preach Jesus one mighty to save to the uttermost.


Further Reading
A Defence of Calvinism - Charles Spurgeon (Absolutely Brilliant - The definitive defence)
Tulpedia - An abundance of scriptual proofs when the Yes No just doesn't cut it.

Add Your Comment(252)

Dummies Guide to Calvinism - TULIP
Posted by Correy Edmed Tuesday, January 31, 2006

252 Comments:

Blogger Mike Garner said...

Does Irresistable Grace mean that God's Grace cannot be resisted?

No. Fallen man naturally resists God every step of the way.

What then does it mean?
It means that ultimately God's Grace will triumph over and resistence because nothing can thwart God's Saving Grace.


Just thought I'd add those because I hear that somewhat frequently.

-mike

February 01, 2006 3:11 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Great thought Mike. I love how you make Gods saving Grace Amazing.

February 01, 2006 3:14 PM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Puritan Belief, you said, "Should I preach TULIP to the unsaved? No, Preach Jesus one mighty to save to the uttermost."

That is NOT the gospel. With that hateful message you would be offering salvation to the lost sinner. If you tell a lost sinner that Jesus is, "mighty to save to the uttermost", then what are you telling this person? You are telling this person that Jesus is mighty to save them. Is this true? No! It is a lie. Jesus saved His people period. You would be speaking peace, peace, when there is no peace. The gospel is God's promise to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. Those who do not believe the gospel are lost (2Cor 4:3).

February 01, 2006 3:29 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Maki:
Although there is some truth in what you say what you talk of is not calvinism it is law and intellectualising a spiritual message which is to be proclaimed to all the world, nation, tongue, tribe etc.

After all does not God cause the sun and rain to fall on the believer and the unbeliever? So are we to do with the gospel and to those perishing it will be a deadly stench but to those being saved it is a sweet aroma.

All my questions and answers are straight from scripture here is the one I was referring to.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Yes those that come to him are the elect and only do so because they are drawn by the Father I agree. The truth in proclaiming the gospel is to obey his command to preach the gospel to all the world, tongue, tribe, nation for this is soul winning and the fruit is those souls that believe. May the Lord free you from your legalism and set you free to preach the fullness of Jesus to even those that sneer at you and hate you for it. Perhaps the Lord will draw them by His Amazing Grace and Love to himself.

Maki: If you do respond please supply exactly what you would preach to an unsaved person?

February 01, 2006 3:36 PM   Edit
Anonymous Bethany said...

In light of what you just wrote I want to ask the following question. I have never recieved a satisfactory answer hoping you and your fellow bloggers can help - Can we influence God through prayer? If not why would we bother to intercede for others to come to Christ or about anything for that matter?

February 01, 2006 7:36 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

February 01, 2006 9:29 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

Nice and simple explination of the TULIP doctorine of Grace.
What about DAISY and the doctorines of Responsibility?
For each of the five points of Calvinism, there is a counterbalancing truth also found in scripture.

Deliberate Sin

Possible distortion:
Point T alone could lead some to believe that depravity is a condition we passively receive.

Corrective:
The doctrine of Total Depravity is balanced by the doctrine of Deliberate Sin.

Isaiah 53:6

We all cooperate with our innate depravity by sinning wilfully. Sin is our conscious choice.

All-Encompassing Call

Possible distortion:
Point U alone could be taken to mean that some might be denied salvation though they desire it.

Corrective:
The doctrine of Unconditional Election is balanced by the doctrine of All-Encompassing Call.

John 3:16

Revelation 22:17

The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is available to whoever wants it.

Infinite Love

Possible distortion:
Some might infer from Point L alone that God is indifferent to the lost.

Corrective:
The doctrine of Limited Atonement is balanced by the doctrine of Infinite Love.

2 Peter 3:9

John 3:16

God loves the whole world of man, including all who will reject His love.

Spontaneous Faith

Possible distortion:
Point I alone could be construed as saying that a man should wait for saving faith to descend mysteriously from above.

Corrective:
The doctrine of Irresistible Grace is balanced by the doctrine of Spontaneous Faith.

Romans 10:10

Saving faith originates in the authentic desires of a man's heart. It comes not from without, but from within. If, in his heart, a man desires to be saved and believes that he can be saved only through Christ, he need not postpone a decision for Christ until God grants him a special kind of faith. He already has exactly the faith he needs.

Yieldedness of the Saints

Possible distortion:
Some might view Point P alone as an excuse for carelessness in the Christian life.

Corrective:
The doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints is balanced by the doctrine of Yieldedness of the Saints.

2 Peter 1:10

The proof that a man is saved is then a life befitting a saved man.

PB do you believe that...
T = Total Depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints
should be / needs to be, ballanced by...
D = Deliberate Sin
A = All-Encompassing Call
I = Infinite Love
S = Spontaneous Faith
Y = Yieldedness of the Saints
?

February 01, 2006 9:35 PM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Hello puritan belief, you asked, "If you do respond please supply exactly what you would preach to an unsaved person?"

Lost sinner says: What must I do to be saved?

My response: With men it is impossible. All men by nature are spiritually dead in sins, and unable and unwilling to obey God and come to Jesus Christ for salvation. The sovereign God of the universe, who causes and controls everything, has an elect group of people based upon grace. Every person without exception is either a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath. There is no one about whom God is undecided. Because God is perfectly holy and righteous, He cannot fellowship with anyone who does not have a righteousness that equals His righteousness. Therefore, all who do not have a perfect righteousness in accordance with God’s law shall perish in Hell for all eternity. God, having only loved His elect from the foundation of the world, sent His Son Jesus Christ to save His people conditioned exclusively on atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, being fully God, and fully man, and who knew no sin, established a perfect righteousness for His people that answered the demands of God’s law and justice. God’s wrath towards the sins of His people was appeased by the work of Jesus Christ, because He took the sins of His people by imputation upon Himself on the cross and paid in full the just penalty for their sins with His own blood. God is just to justify the ungodly based on the work of Jesus Christ alone totally apart from the sinner’s works and efforts. Because God was fully satisfied with the work of Jesus Christ He raised Him from the dead so that as Christ was raised from the dead so are His people by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, in which God seals His people forever, imputes to them the righteousness of Christ, counts them as holy before Him, causes them to walk in His statues, and gives them faith and repentance. Nothing they did merited the grace of God to be bestowed upon them, for Christ's Church stands by God's election.

February 02, 2006 1:45 AM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

Puritan, with much due respect I am going to take exception with one comment in your post. "Is the gospel of free-will false? Yes."
Are you saying that their are those who will choose to come to God and will be rejected because they are not in the "elect"?

May we examine the Scripture for light on this?

John 6:37All that the Father giveth unto me, cometh unto me; and he that cometh unto me, I will in no wise cast out.

Romans 10:13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I can agree to disagree with the differences between Calvinism and free-will gospel. Not all of us who teach free-will gospel believe that you can lose your salvation. In fact, I know many that don't.

The exception that I take is with this, calling what we preach for the gospel: the deity and perfection of Christ, the sole sufficiency of Christ's atonement, salvation by grace and not by works, and eternal security, is a bit over the top.

I do not mean to be strident here. I simply do not feel that the differences between the two positions are great enough to label the other a "false gospel".

February 02, 2006 2:07 AM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

In the next to last paragraph, it should read, "What we preach for the gospel...a false gospel."

Sorry.

February 02, 2006 3:09 AM   Edit
Blogger TheDen said...

PB,

Thanks for sharing the TULIP teachings of Calvin. I'm not familiar with them and always open to learning new things.

Dennis

February 02, 2006 3:09 AM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

both free grace theology and calvinism are doctorines. the bible alsks us to preach the GOSPEL not doctorine. the gospel is summed up in 1 Corinthians 4:3-4 that
"Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again on the third day according to the scriptures:"
1. It is important that Jesus "died for our sins according the scriptures" - both in referencence prophesies about the Messiah and also that sins needed blood in order to be forgiven.
2. It is important that Jesus "was buried" - in reference to baptism as a symbol of following Christ and dying to our own sinful nature.
3. It is important that Jesus "rose again on the third day according to the scriptures" - defeating death, so that we might have life.

should the distinction be made between gospel and doctorine when preaching to the unsaved?

February 02, 2006 5:39 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Unfortunately I am extra busy with work for the next few days. I have speed read most of your comments and I haven't had a chance to ponder what you really mean from your questions. Please if their are others who would like to respond please do so.

Magi:The moment one point DAISY stands the whole of TULIP falls. No Arminism and Calvinism are not the same. Please refer to Tulpedia for an abundance of scriptual proofs.

Bethany:Should I pray for others to receive irrisistable grace? Yes The Lord Jesus forever makes intercession for our prayers. Would it not be Him who put these purposes in your heart. Then if it were Him wouldn't it be even more glorious and worthwhile. May those whom are on your heart flee to Jesus.

Maki: I am sorry I haven't had time to ponder your thoughts.

Gordon:"Are you saying that their are those who will choose to come to God and will be rejected because they are not in the "elect"?"

No, What I think is that all those who come to the Lord will in no wise be cast out. So those who come to the Lord for salvation and believe in his name shall be saved. What I was referring to the false gospel of mans free-will is simply when people preach how it is up to man and his works or decision. Not what you were talking about in regards to Christ.

Best Regards Everyone. Will be back Sunday

February 02, 2006 6:19 AM   Edit
Blogger mxu said...

Thanks for the post,

one minor point I disagree with though:

"Should we preach TULIP to the unsaved."- Why not?

Paul says in acts 20:

26Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, 27for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

Jesus says in Matthew 28:

19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

I'm not saying we should preach TULIP to the exclusion of the gospel , but merely that TULIP (if it's biblical) should be part of the "full counsel of God." What greater relief for someone who is struggling with sin and despair than the promise that God will never lose them if He has called them? No one will say that they actually "saved themselves" whatever position they take, TULIP is a natural outworking of that.

February 02, 2006 7:59 AM   Edit
Blogger mxu said...

As a side note, I always thought DAISY was something made up by Calvinists who wanted to poke fun at the Arminian viewpoint. How interesting.

February 02, 2006 10:05 AM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

my understanding is that DAISY was a calvinist responce to arminian objections to the 'doctorine of grace.' As for DAISY to be relevant, all 5 points of TULIP must first be understood as correct doctorine. I did not think they were in opposition as Calvinism vs Arminianism is.

In regards to my other question is calvanism a doctorine, and as such useful for believers to be taught. or the gospel and thus must be preached to non-believers?
get to this when you have time and have a good weekend.

February 02, 2006 12:10 PM   Edit
Blogger reformation man said...

Puritan,

I appreciate the Blogg and stand behind your view pooints. I have a Reformed blogg of my own and I am glad to see that I am not alone in the. Keep going and God bless you.

The Reformer

February 03, 2006 2:01 AM   Edit
Blogger David Robison said...

Thanks for your primer on calvinism. While after reading it I must confess that I'm probably not an ardent Calvinist, I do enjoy reading your thoughts and the thoughts of those who respond to your posts. Keep up the good work.

David

February 03, 2006 1:52 PM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

Are you saying that their are those who will choose to come to God and will be rejected because they are not in the "elect"?


This is a misunderstanding of the position. I doubt Puritan believes it, but if he does then he would be wrong. The correct way to view this is that none will come to Jesus on their own because they are spiritually dead. However, the elect are made alive in Christ and will necessarily come. Therefore, it is then impossible to have this situation that you have diagrammed where a person would come to Jesus and not be part of the elect. John 6 denies that this is possible.

February 03, 2006 4:08 PM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

Mike, this is what I understood Puritan to say. I personally do not believe in unconditional election. My question to Puritan, does he then believe that I am preaching a false gospel?

February 03, 2006 4:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

In regards to my other question is calvinism a doctorine, and as such useful for believers to be taught. or the gospel and thus must be preached to non-believers?

Calvinism is not properly a doctrine or the gospel. It is true that Doctrines are contained in Calvinism and the gospel is presented when Calvinism is explaied (correctly). However, Calvinism or "Reformed Theology" is properly a systematic theology. That is, it is a synthesis of the entire teaching of the bible in several areas. This teaching is then organized, taught, and applied.

February 03, 2006 4:11 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

so mike are you saying that calvinism falls under the category of teaching rather than preaching?
this is what i would have thought.

another question.
if only the elect can deire God through him making them spiritually alive, why is the Perseverance of the saints point needed?
a person cannot desire God if they are not elect, and if they are elect they will persevere.
the 'P' point seems to be a catchnet for the unelect who think they are saved, in other words is how calvinism deals with those who 'backslide'.

February 03, 2006 5:51 PM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

Gordon,

I will allow Puritan to respond to whether that is actually what he believes. You did pose one question to him that I would like to comment on if you do not mind.

You stated,
My question to Puritan, does he then believe that I am preaching a false gospel?

Can you please shortly summarize what you believe the Gospel to be. In other words, to determine whether you would be preaching a false gospel, we need a sense of what you are in fact preaching.

February 04, 2006 9:24 AM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

so mike are you saying that calvinism falls under the category of teaching rather than preaching?
this is what i would have thought.


I would say that Calvinism falls under the category of Systematic Theology. I would say that Systematic Theology contains information that affects both teaching and preaching. So I think that Calvinism is going to have implications of both teaching and preaching but I do not think that it could be summarized or contained in either category alone.


if only the elect can deire God through him making them spiritually alive, why is the Perseverance of the saints point needed?
a person cannot desire God if they are not elect, and if they are elect they will persevere.


Good question and I believe I responded in a similar manner (although to a different question) in an exchange with Dawn. The question becomes whether God only provides Saving Grace and regenerates a believer and then leaves them on their own and will only protect them from falling away once they have died. There are some who do in fact believe this.
The 'P' teaching says that not only does God provide this Saving Grace at this moment but that the implication is not simily being "Saved" at that moment but that they immediately have Eternal life and will be sustained and protected by God's continued Grace.


the 'P' point seems to be a catchnet for the unelect who think they are saved, in other words is how calvinism deals with those who 'backslide'.


I am not entirely sure what you are saying but it sounds like you are saying that "P" exists because Calvinism needs a way to explain the people are seemingly believers but fall away. This is not properly the teaching of P but I suppose it i s a valid implication. However, the bible clearly teachings that there is a False Faith and a Belief that even the demons have. However, the bible never suggests that they are eternally saved. If the bible allows for this category of people, then we must also.

As to how Calvinism deals with "backsliders: We would say that no one backslides. There are true believers who do drift backward at given times and there are those who professed belief but have since rejected it. In either case, there is never an incident of those who at one point have genuine faith and at a later point have no faith.



I'm not sure if that answers your question. If I have missed what you are saying or if you'd like me to say something another way then feel free to rephrase the question.

In Christ alone,
mike

February 04, 2006 9:35 AM   Edit
Blogger Daniel said...

Based on the number of comments, you would think that people care about this issue. :)

February 04, 2006 10:14 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

MXU: Everything you say was spot on in regards to preaching TULIP. I personally think that when you preach Jesus as a savior to the uttermost you evidently will be touching on all 5 points of TULIP. I think it was Spurgeon that said Calvinism is the gospel and nothing else and he meant this in the same way you did. When I said NO we should not preach TULIP I was pointing out the obvious that you don't go up to someone who is unsaved and start telling them first of Total Depravity then Unconditional election (This is the dummies guide after all)

Mike: Everything you were saying is spot on. I like the points you bought out and yes I missed this aspect of Gordons question all together. Thanks for your thorough answers and effort you placed to answer many of the questions here. I enjoyed hearing your perspective.

Gordon: I do enjoy reading through your blog which shows me you have a great foundation in the truth of the gospel even though you admit not to have believed fully in Limited Atonement.

MDM:
Should the distinction be made between doctrine and gospel?

Doctrine should be how we formulate with words what the Lord has placed in our hearts. Therefore if you love the doctrines of Calvinism and the Lord has placed them in your heart the Jesus you will preach will be Sovereign, mighty to save. Giving new hearts making people alive by His spirit etc.

If you have a Universalism gospel in your heart then you will preach to the flesh and instructions to man to create faith and decide to chose Jesus by their own free will. Basically they just can't help it. They tell of a God that has his hands tied and is powerless to do anything for the unsaved unless they let him into the door of their heart Building man up and dragging God down.

February 04, 2006 2:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

Puritan--thank you for your answer.

Mike--To reiterate my comments, I was simply asking for a clarification on the statement concerning the free-will gospel. I believe that salvation is through grace alone, through the atonement of Christ. It is not of works, but every individual has the responsibility to choose faith and repentance in Christ.

I think we would probably differ primarily on when does election come into play? You would probably say that a person is saved because they are in the elect, I say they are in the elect because they are saved.

This is (in my mind) a very fine difference and I was concerned that Puritan seemed to be referring to this a "false gospel". He has answered my question, however, and I appreciate his graciousness in that.

February 04, 2006 3:25 PM   Edit
Anonymous Frederica said...

Hi PB,

Quick question -- I read the extra reading (Spurgeon), who seemed convinced infants go to heaven, to the extent that they will out-number those people who go to hell.
This doesn't seem consistent with TULIP - where do you stand?

February 04, 2006 4:32 PM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

Frederica,

This doesn't seem consistent with TULIP - where do you stand?

He would maintain that every infant that dies is part of the U who have already had any sins cleansed by L.



Gordon,

It would probably be my contention that you are wrong but would not be so quick to call it a false gospel.

However, I must ask you about some of your comments.

but every individual has the responsibility to choose faith and repentance in Christ.

I dont think that is really in question. The real question would be whether you believer every person has the ability to choose faith and repentance in Christ.

Similarly, can a person choose faith before they have been given Spiritual life? Paul seems to make it clear that only the Spiritual can understand Spiritual things. The implication being that a Spiritually dead person would have quite a difficult time professing faith in Jesus.


I believe that salvation is through grace alone The Reformers used this phrase against two wrong views. One wrong view was against the works-righteousness of those in the Roman church. They also used it to mean monergism. Simply, that is that the Holy Spirit alone is the operating force in regeneration. Synergism is the other option which would be a cooperation of the Spirit and the human. Are you using "Grace alone" in the classic sense? Asked otherwise, do you believe that the Holy Spirit is the only operating force in Regeneration or does the sinner cooperate by 'choosing faith'?

I say they are in the elect because they are saved.

Would you define "to elect" or "to predestine" for me? I often hear this argued, but it seems to be an out and out betrayal of the English language. If "elect" were only a word that we were using to describe believers then we could just say "Saint". However, it is (with Predestine, and ordain) used as a verb. If words are to have any value then they must have meaning. Elect, predestine, ordain, etc. all mean something that would seemingly speak against your view. Now, if your contention is that the Greek is translated improperly then we could discuss that, but I would probably warn against that.


In Christ alone,
mike

February 04, 2006 5:48 PM   Edit
Anonymous Frederica said...

Mike -- "He would maintain that every infant that dies is part of the U who have already had any sins cleansed by L."
On what basis? If a person is elect or not, what difference the age at which they die?

February 04, 2006 6:26 PM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

On what basis? If a person is elect or not, what difference the age at which they die?

Well that is somewhat of the point. If a person is Elect then it does not matter if they are only 2 months old, God may spare them.

On what basis ... that is a trickier question. We do not have very many examples in Scripture so it is difficult to speculate on. First, we have David's son who will be in Heaven although he died extremely early. Second, we have John the Baptizer who may very well be regenerate in the womb. This is all of the biblical data and even some of it is questionable.

Accordingly, I do not make as bold of statements on this matter as most people. If someone were to ask me then I would assure them that we serve a merciful God and our only hope is trusting in His mercy and goodness. How does that ultimately play itself out? I don't know. All we can know is what the bible gives us reason to believe.


In Christ alone,
mike


P.S. I should be sure to note that I absolutely reject the notion that the bible teaches an Age of Accountability. I believe a baby of 1 day is a sinner and deserving of God's wrath.

February 04, 2006 7:16 PM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

Puritan Believer,

From my blog I can tell that you left a comment on the 2nd Philippians post. However, when I go to look at it from the actual website it does not show up. Do you know why that might be?

Thanks,
mike

February 04, 2006 7:17 PM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

Mike, I have been involved in this debate for many years with many people. At the risk of opening up a huge can of worms, I will answer your questions.

I believe that we are saved by grace, through faith, without works. I do believe that man has the responsibility to make the choice of faith/repentance on his own. I know that you probably feel that you can make a case against this with various scriptures, but I could say the same thing. This reminds me of the discussion concerning systematic theology on Daniel's blog. So in your words, I would probably be a synergist.

Concerning election/predestination: Every time in the NT these terms are used, it is both addressing and referring to those who are already believers. We are predestined to be to the praise of the glory of His grace. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. I do not believe that this view cheapens the meaning of these words, I believe that it enhances the meaning of being born again. We cannot just live a life of spiritual idleness after we have been born again.

Quite honestly, I almost feel like this conversation is similar to the one about the chicken and the egg. Both of us believe that it requires the grace of God to be saved. Both of us believe in repentance. Both of us believe in the perseverance of the saints. I would hope that if we take these differing positions that we can agree to disagree and still serve God's kingdom together.

Concerning your comment to Frederica concerning John the Baptist being regenerate in the womb. I would be interested to hear your supporting arguments on that. Perhaps you could write an article on your blog and we could discuss it there.

Also, I unapologetically believe in the inspiration, infallibility and inerrancy of the Scriptures.

February 05, 2006 2:58 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Frederica:
Many of the puritans believed what Spurgeon and Mike have said. That is that the Lord in his mercy and kindness would not send any unborn babies to Hell. They argue that they have not physically done one thing wrong in the womb and the Lord would show them all mercy.

John Owen had 11 children the first 10 died mostly before they were born. Back then it was common that children would die in the womb or be still born. I would say that this led to a very emotional understanding of your question.

There are verses which state that even from the womb the wicked have gone astray. Also if Esau died in the womb it is clear he would have went to hell. My understanding is that the unborn must be saved the same way as everyone else and that is by the blood. I can not see evidence that the Lord saves every single one in the womb however I would like to be proven wrong.

February 05, 2006 6:45 AM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

We cannot just live a life of spiritual idleness after we have been born again.

I'm not sure anyone has suggested this and I can pretty much guarantee that I have not.



In any case, do you now agree that you do not believe in Grace alone for regeneration. It seems what you are saying is Grace plus Faith = Regeneration. Grace alone would say Grace plus nothing.

I would hope that if we take these differing positions that we can agree to disagree and still serve God's kingdom together.

The great problem of the Roman church was adding to God's grace for Salvation. I see the evangelical church moving ever so slowly back into that captivity that first grabbed Pelagius. We can suggest that it is a small matter but I believe it strikes at the heart of the Gospel.

February 05, 2006 5:22 PM   Edit
Blogger delete said...

Great job, Puritan, as always. I think I should print this out and carry it with me!

By the way, have you read John Piper's address at this year's
pastor's conference? It was on Tyndale. Here's the path:
http://desiringgod.org/library/biographies/2006_tyndale.html

--Shawn

February 06, 2006 2:34 AM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

Mike, I was in no way implying that anyone had suggested that we could afford to lead a life of spiritual idleness. I was merely explaining what I believe the Bible teaches about the purposes of election.

Brother, throughout this discussion I have tried to be gracious and speak in a civil manner. To compare my points with Roman Catholicism is outrageous. This is a problem that I see with Calivinism in its extreme form, it produces an arrogant and isolationist spirit that becomes more enamored with adherence to a system of theology than it does in fulfillment of the Great Commission.

This will be my last post in discussion with you.

February 06, 2006 3:45 AM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

Gordon,

Repeatedly you have dodged the key questions and tirelessly expounded on points that were never part of the discussion. If you would prefer to not discuss the matter then at least say that. To suggest arrogance, isolationists, etc. is a tired red-herring and ad hominem that hopes to direct the reader's attention to some other matter than the content of the discussion at hand.

becomes more enamored with adherence to a system of theology than it does in fulfillment of the Great Commission.

And this is the problem with modern evangelicalism. We do something that the bible never does, namely we create a dichotomy between correct Theology and Practical living (in this case performing the great commission). The bible always puts the two hand in hand. To drive a wedge between the two is to do something that the Scriptures never do.

February 06, 2006 2:29 PM   Edit
Blogger David Robison said...

PB I have tow questions, in calvinism can one ever know for certain that they are elect? And if we believe ion Calvinism, does it matter whether we preach a true or false Gospel since election is irresistable? Just wondering... Thanks for sharing your beliefs... David

February 07, 2006 8:44 AM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

Hey David,

I'll give a shot at your questions:

PB I have tow questions, in calvinism can one ever know for certain that they are elect? And if we believe ion Calvinism, does it matter whether we preach a true or false Gospel since election is irresistable? Just wondering... Thanks for sharing your beliefs... David

First, the question of whether you are elect is simply a way to say "Cna you know that you are saved?" The bible certainly teaches that we can know we are saved and most Christians agree with this. Since In Reformed Soteriology a person who is Elect is simply going to be a person who is a true believer. So then, if you believe that you can know that you are saved, then in Reformed Soteriology you believe that you can know you are elect.


Second, the Holy Spirit doesn't operate in a vacuum, but rather uses different means. One of the means is the preaching of the Word of Christ (Romans clearly says this in chapter 10). The truth is paramount and in the same way that God elects a person to believe, God has ordained that a person preach the true Gospel to that person.

Must we be concerned with the preaching of Truth? Absolutely. Dare we to suggest that we will thwart God's Eternal plan ... of course not. The fact that you are saved right now does not depend primarily on the person who preached the Gospel to you, but primarily on God who opened your heart to the truth. This stands in tension in the bible and so it stands in tension within reformed Soterilogy. To error either way is to become unbiblical.

In Christ alone,
mike

February 07, 2006 9:29 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Greetings David:
Click here to view the verses that mention election in the KJV. It would be great for you to have a read through these verses in your own time to see the context. I am sure you will see that election is purely of Gods choice of us not the other way round.

In regards to knowing if we are elect. Here is a verse I love.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

This verse points out the importance of election. It is important to know that the Lord has set you apart from the world and he has made you alive by the Spirit.

Yes Grace is irrisistable. A verse I love in regards to this is "The gifts and callings of the Lord are irevocable." When the Lords grace appears so does his salvation. There is not one case where he has lost one of those that he saved.

I see what you are saying with your second question. A lot of people think that if this be the case then what does it matter if we preach the gospel at all or even which gospel because won't they be saved anyway?

Now if you were totally dead in sin and the Lord called you by his grace and made you alive by his spirit because he loved you. Would it not follow that you would love to tell of the one that saved you? Would you not rejoice to lift Jesus up in the hope that Jesus will save others as He did to you.

The bible says that the Lord uses the foolishness of the gospel message preached unto salvation. Now the truth is that the Lord even used a donkey to speak for his purposes how much more will he use you?

The scripture puts great importance on making sure the gospel you are preaching is truth and not error. There are warnings all throughout scripture especially the letters because of false teachings in the church. Here is a great one.

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

February 07, 2006 10:58 AM   Edit
Anonymous Child of God said...

Umm. So if you are elect, you can never be "unelect"?

What about 2 Peter Chapter 2?

20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

So you can be saved, and know God, and yet return to wickedness. Not only that-- but you can lead others astray. Wonder what would happen if these false prophets repented again--

Do you think they would be saved again?

March 03, 2006 4:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Larry said...

If all are totally depraved from birth as stated in Isaiah 58:3, what about babies that die at birth or soon thereafter. According to total depravity they should not go to heaven. But David claimed when his firstborn died, that he be with him someday. That can only mean heaven. That is the only tenant of Calvin I have difficulty in accepting.

August 29, 2006 3:59 PM   Edit
Blogger Larry said...

The verse about Isaiah 58:3 should be Psalm 58:3 concerning Calvin's TULIP Doctrine, whether babies that die at birth or soon thereafter go to heaven or not.

August 29, 2006 4:39 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Child of God
Good point with regards to Peter. I think many people know full well about Jesus and do exactly as it says there. I agree with other verses on topic which say they depart from us for they were never of us.

It is important to note that the true born again Christian is looked after wholey and completely by Jesus Himself and Jesus will never fail. If they know jesus but are not of Him then they will eventually fall away for man will always fail left alone to his own devises and will.

Larry:
Another great point I am looking up the bible re this one. Perhaps the Lord saved that child of his own good pleasure. Some "Calvinists" believe that in the Lords loving kindness he chooses all the babies to eternal life.

But the example of Esau directly on the subject in Romans 9 says before the twins were born.... and even goes on to say that this example was so that election would stand.

August 30, 2006 11:59 AM   Edit
Anonymous Larry said...

You made this comment:
Another great point I am looking up the bible re this one. Perhaps the Lord saved that child of his own good pleasure. Some "Calvinists" believe that in the Lords loving kindness he chooses all the babies to eternal life.
This is my response: Where is that found in the Bible. Just because Calvinists believe it does not make it true. And if Esau was hated by God it has no relevance to my question. He did not die as a baby. The question I asked do babies that die at birth or soon thereafter go to heaven or hell as defined by Scripture.Or did that only pertain to David's baby, and if so was he born sinnless in defiance of total depravity.

August 31, 2006 12:13 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So...I guess that John 3:16 isn't something that is commonly preached here??

April 11, 2008 12:37 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Here is a whole post on John 3:16

Do Calvinists ignore John 3:16?

April 11, 2008 1:05 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you are one of "the chosen", do you pick a "chosen" wife...and if so, how do you make sure your children are chosen. It would be hard to tell your kid that he or she is going to hell.

April 14, 2008 2:01 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Answer 1:

Yes you pick a wife that has the testimony of being "chosen"

Answer 2:
It is impossible to make sure that your kids "are chosen" as they are chosen apart from your "works".

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