Puritan Belief

The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone.

Isaac Watts - Burnt His Hymn Books

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died,
My richest gain I count but loss,
And pour contempt on all my pride.

Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
Save in the death of Christ my God!


People Still Burn His Hymn Books TODAY
Although in each and every line of his hymns the Word of God is proclaimed and exalted many people have burned his hymn books making a mockery of him and his beliefs. WHY? Because he opposed the catholic doctrine The Trinity. Many now label him a Unitarian. (blanket statement such as oneness or Arian)

Spurgeon & Isaac Watts Hymns
The greatest hymn writer of all time is Sir Isaac Watts in many of the Old puritans eyes. Charles Spurgeon in his youth was given 1 penny for every Isaac Watts hymn he memorised by his grandmother. Unfortunately for her bank account his memory was amazing.

Early Years
Isaacs father was twice imprisoned because of his beliefs in the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ. When home he exhorted all his children to go to Jesus for salvation.

At the age of 16 Isaac had mastered Latin, Greek, Hebrew and French and excelled in philosophy and mathematics. At 24 Isaac preached his first sermon in the congregationalist church after refusing to be part of Anglicanism.

Sickness
For most of Isaacs life he was weak and ill however he applied himself to scripture for the Lords sake quoting "for Satan finds some mischief still for idle hands to do"

Hymns became Alive
In Isaacs day hymns were paraphrases of the Psalms and his father encouraged him to write new hymns and Isaac said: "Behold the glories of the Lamb Amidst the Father's throne, Prepare new honours for His Name And songs before unknown" His endeavour was to change the older paraphrase of the Psalms by weaving The New Testament into the Old Testament Psalms. We all know at least one Isaac Watts Hymn here is one you will know. Joy to the world

Died at 74 (1674 - 1748)
Over 500 Hymns later many of his hymns are still sung and studied today such as "When I survey the wondrous cross" or "Alas and did my Savior bleed"

Christ-Centered Hymns by Isaac Watts
Well might the sun in darkness hide
And shut his glories in,
When Christ, the mighty Maker died,
For man the creature’s sin. (Full Hymn)

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love, (Full Hymn)

Add Your Comment(57)

Isaac Watts - Burnt His Hymn Books
Posted by Correy Edmed Friday, April 21, 2006

57 Comments:

Blogger Johnathan M. Thomas said...

Praise God! Your thoughts are well received.

peace.
johno~

April 21, 2006 4:46 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

thanks PB,
I really enjoy and benefit from your posts about the great men of the Church's history.
I love this hymn also, especially the last two lines.
"Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all.
"

MDM

April 21, 2006 5:53 PM   Edit
Blogger tracifish said...

He denied the Trinity???

April 22, 2006 11:17 AM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tracifish asks: "He denied the Trinity?"

Maybe he just didn't "get it". You know, the "3=1" thing is kinda hard to conceptualize. But I guess we're going to get a quiz when we die, and I think "explain the Trinity" is an essay question. If we don't articulate it clearly, straight to Hell we go!

April 22, 2006 12:19 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I dont understand why you continue to to refer to the trinity as a 'catholic' doctrine as it is a doctrine held by all the reformed churches as well as the catholic church it would be more accurate to say the doctrine of the trinity held by all christian churchs except the cults such as jehovahs witness, mormans and oneness pentecostals...if there is a current reformed church eg baptist, presbeterian ect that denies the trinity i would love to hear about it

April 22, 2006 1:14 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Tracefish:
Yes Isaac Watts denied it and openly opposed the catholic doctrine the trinity as do I.

Anonymous:
In relation to your essay question on the trinity to get to heaven. I guess if you get the trinity essay right according to the catholics you will go straight to PERGITORY...hehe

When the trinity was formalised all the catholic bishops/Unregenerates declared:

"Thus the catholic church believes"

April 22, 2006 8:54 PM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

I think people have a need to label/categorise other people... makes them feel more comfortable somehow. I'm guessing Jesus didn't fit into any of the categories of his day either.

April 22, 2006 9:49 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

PB,
"When the trinity was formalised all the catholic bishops/Unregenerates declared:
Thus the catholic church believes"


you are ignoring the question.
Can you name a single organised group of believers (which is not a cult) that holds your view of the trinity and its non existance?

The whole of the REFORMED church holds the trinity as truth too. The doctorine of the trinity IS NOT CONFINED to the Catholic Church nor does it have its foundation there. Saying the Trinity is a 'catholic' doctorine is false and demonstrates a lack of understanding in the matter.

In The begining was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God.
- John 1:1

The ONLY way Jesus can both be God and be with God is if the Trinity is truth. To deny this is to deny scripture and to hold false doctorine in the place of truth.

MDM

April 22, 2006 10:19 PM   Edit
Anonymous paulpg said...

Anonymous:
Maybe he just didn't "get it". You know, the "3=1" thing is kinda hard to conceptualize.

May I use an 'Allegory'

The pastor visited me,
Paul I have to talk to you about your 3 wives, the Lord does not want you to have 3 wives! you committing adultery.
paul"
oh no pastor I do not have 3 wives I have only one wife.
the pastor"
Don't be stupid I can see 3 wives
Jane, Sue, and Mary, that's 3 persons.
paul"
but pastor I have only 1 wife you know the 3 are 1 its kind'a hard to conceptualise.
pastor (Isaac Watts.)
Do not be deceived, all adulterers the Lord will punish 1 Cor.6:9-10
What about spiritual adulterers, what will happen to them?? Rev 2:22

April 23, 2006 12:16 AM   Edit
Blogger ajlin said...

paulpg-

may i ask what Church congregation you attend?

-Andrew

April 23, 2006 2:47 AM   Edit
Blogger ajlin said...

Following on MDM's last post- we build our doctrine of God, which has been given the nickname "Trinity" in order to not have to write a book every time we speek of God, from a slow and careful study of the Scriptures, verse by verse. And so we begin with the knowledge, given to us by God, never dreamed of by Man, that the Word is both God and with God (John 1:1-2). In John 1:14, we further see that the Word became flesh and that the Word came from the Father. In this prologue to the Gospel of John, we have revelation that becomes the bedrock for our understanding of Jesus as both identified with God and distinguished from the Father. Only by throwing out phrases such as "the Word was God" in verse 1 could Jesus be misunderstood as not being identified with God. Likewise, only by throwing out phrases such as "was with God" in verse 1, or "came from the Father" in verse 14 could we misunderstand the essential nature of the relationship between the Word and God (verse 1) or the Word and the Father (verse 14) by glossing over distinctions demanded by the text of Scripture.

April 23, 2006 3:17 AM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

paulpg,
you are falling into the same pattern as riven and trying to understand God as though He is in our image. Comparing the Trinity or triune nature of God to being like three women is misrepresentative of the trinity and it shows a serious misunderstanding of what the Trinity teaches.

Scripture shows that Jesus submitted to the will of the Father "Not my will but yours be done" - Luke 22:42 Jesus did not say 'Not my will but mine be done'. Doing simply what you plan for yourself is NOT submission, is NOT obedience. Nor did Jesus pray to Himself, he always prayed to the Father. Praying to the Father as Jesus often privately did aswell, is not simply for an example for the disciples to follow, Jesus did this in private, not for show, He spoke to His Father.

Clearly There is only one God and Jesus is God. Equally clear from scripture though is that the Father, Spirit and Jesus are all distinct and yet are all the one God. This is not 1+1+1=3 or 1/3+1/3+1/3=1 simple maths cannot explain the divine nature of God, nor can an analogy consisting of three women.

One cannot 'begot' oneself. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. " John 3:16

paulpg,
do you simply ignore verses such as John 1:1 "In The begining was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God." or do you edit them as the JW's do so that they do not have to read "...and the Word was with God."?

MDM

April 23, 2006 7:56 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

(I am paulpg from before)
oops! I forget to mention something in the Allegory:

Paul:
"But pastor! you seemingly don't understand that God created my wife in his likeness, 3 persons in one wife 'Jane, Sue, and Mary.
Therefore i don't commit adultery!
Look the whole world believes that."

ajlin, I hope you understand what i mean.

Brother Isaac Watts was persecuted
and rejected by the universal church, because he did not believe that God is 3 persons! God was in one person reconciling the world to Himself, namely Jesus Christ.

By "universal church" I mean virtually all modern churches, who hold Roman Catholic doctrines.

If you hold the trinity, then Jesus is your stumbling block.

Jesus is THE fullness of God and NOT just a part of God.

April 23, 2006 12:10 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Magi:
If the Word of God is not God the Father come in the flesh then the Old Testament and all its prophesies are false for they were speaking of my Heavenly Father.

My God says nothing is impossible for Him yet you say he can not begot Himself.

April 23, 2006 12:22 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

I went to church thismorning which holds the trinity and asked a 5 year old girl what the name of God was and she said Jesus. Then I asked her who her heavenly Father is and she said Jesus.

I rejoice with Jesus:
"I praise you Father Lord of Heaven and earth that you have hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to infants."

April 23, 2006 12:32 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

indeed paul g,
the middle section of John 1:1 tells us that "The Word was God" I am not refuting this. Jesus is God.
How do you explain the next part of this verse, that "The Word was with God"?
It is very clear that Jesus was with God while He is also God. Do you ignore or edit out this portion of he verse as the JW's do?

If Jesus is not begotten of the Father, that is the Son of God then Jesus is a liar a He often calls Himself the Son of God. Jesus cannot be His own Father unless the Trinity holds true. To suggest that Jesus IS His own Father and that the Trinity is false at the same time is like attempting to reason that Jesus was a woman.

My God says nothing is impossible for Him yet you say he can not be a tri-unity.

MDM

April 23, 2006 5:53 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

The ONLY organised group of 'christians' who claim that The Father and the Spirit do not exist on their own but are merely manifestations of Jesus is the Oneness Pentocostals.
Do you side with them in thei debate PB?

MDM

April 23, 2006 7:19 PM   Edit
Blogger ajlin said...

paul pg/g:
You still haven't dealt with the inspired texts, only your man-made analogies.

puritan belief:
so, are we going to limit our understanding of the Scriptures to that of toddlers? Next time, ask the 5-year-old to explain predestination to you and then try to limit your beliefs on that subject to the answers you get as well.

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Hebrews 5:12-14 NKJV)

April 23, 2006 11:27 PM   Edit
Blogger ajlin said...

My point in the quote from Hebrews in the last comment is that while a childlike faith is necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven (see Mark 10:15) and while a childlike humility is necessary to grow in grace (see Matt. 18:4), a childish understanding of the nature of God and His work is no-where commended in Scripture. On the contrary, a refusal to mature in understanding concerning the things of God receives a rebuke in the passage I quoted in my last comment. And the Apostle, far from being content with believers remaining childish in their understanding, prayed unceasingly that the Colossian congregation would (among other things) increase in their knowledge of God (cf. Col. 1:9-10).

April 24, 2006 5:26 AM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What I find somewhat interesting is that NO ONE really can conceptualize or understand the Trinity, really. Our best analogies are very poor. Yet, this is a "staple" of being a True Christian©.

Three Beings, yet one Being. Saying you "believe it" means nothing. I can say I understand nuclear physics, but that doesn't make it so, and it would be quite amusing to try to watch me attempt to teach it in a classroom.
-JK

April 24, 2006 5:31 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

aljin:
Isn't it interesting that the meat that comes down from heaven is Jesus Christ Himself.

If your meat does not hinge around Jesus Christ as this little girls does but rather you place someone above Jesus such as a mystical Father then Jesus would be your stumbling block and not your cornerstone.

Anonymous:
To say that no one can understand the trinity but we must believe something we know very little about and make it a staple is contrary to sound words found below:

See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.

To those who want a God that is knowable I beg you know the cornerstone. Lift this precious stone up to the very highest position. Not second in line for He has become the capstone.

April 24, 2006 12:34 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Magi:
They wanted to label Isaac Watts a oneness pentecostal so they can burn his hymn books. However he wasn't a oneness pentecostal and either am I.

Perhaps you could do some more research into history. For example John Calvin was part in the murder of Michael Servetus who opposed the trinity. (John Calvin although got rid of the Free Will Catholic doctrine had many catholic beliefs still with him such as the trinity and infant baptism etc) The amount of people who have been killed for not holding the trinity is an eye opener.

Why do yourself and others protect with such ferocious vigor a doctrine they claim to be a mystery and unknowable to them?

Oneness Pentecostal False Doctrines
* They are similar to modalists eg. God has different modes for specific periods of History.
* They believe we must speak in tongues to be saved.
* They are Arminians
* They believe that the Saving baptism is not upon regeneration but a physical one with the sign of speaking in tongues.
* They are legalists.
... and many more.

Please do not respond to any of the above as it is for your own research.
------------------
To Everyone
I would love for people to see this:

If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

A childlike faith believes this. Those who have moved onto the meat of the gospel exalt this.

April 24, 2006 1:13 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God."

Was the Word with another God other then Himself? Answer: NEVER there is but ONE GOD Jesus Christ who all thing are made BY HIM AND FOR HIM.

To get "three-ness" beliefs perhaps you would want to add Father and Son in like this:

"In the beginning was the Son and the Son was with the Father and the Son was the Father"

Even then it is clear The word is/was God the Father come in the flesh who dwelt among us and we saw his glory. Scripture calls this glory "The Glory of the Father" get it? "His/Jesus Glory"

April 24, 2006 1:29 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

aljin:
If you can't understand simple man-made analogies then how can you understand scripture? which is spiritually discerned.

Jesus spoke in analogies or parables do you know why?

Flesh and blood did not reveal that to the toddler but her heavenly Father (Jesus) who is in heaven.

Perhaps if PB would have asked the toddler about predestination we would have got some meat.(Jesus)

"The Lord hid these things from the wise and the intelligent and gave it to toddlers"

"Out of the mouth of the toddlers I have ordained praise"

April 24, 2006 2:13 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

PB,
I am glad you can identify the oneness pentocostals as a cult. Why then do you hold a doctorine that is in line with cultists and not the ENTIRITY of the REFORMED church?
Never have I said God is unknowable. Jesus/The Word IS God. So is the Father, and so is the Holy Spirit. Since we have ONE GOD and all three (Father, Son, Spirit)interact with each other we have 2 options.

1. Jesus is a crazy person and He talks/prays to Himself.

2. Jesus, The Father, and the Spirit are all the One God, while also being separate. Thus God is a tri-unity or a trinity.

Allow me to quote Bunyan, whom you admire and have often quoted here and used as the basis of a few posts.

"...the knowledge of one God, consisting of three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit; for this is the doctrine of the Scriptures of truth"
- John Bunyan

“The words ‘God is love’ have no real meaning unless God contains at least two Persons. Love is something that one person has for another person. If God was a single person then before the world was made, He was not love.”

- C. S. Lewis.

"But while the subject humbles the mind, it also expands it. He who often thinks of God, will have a larger mind than the man who simply plods around this narrow globe.... The most excellent study for expanding the soul, is the science of Christ, and Him crucified, and the knowledge of the Godhead in the glorious Trinity. Nothing will so enlarge the intellect, nothing so magnify the whole soul of man, as a devout, earnest, continued investigation of the great subject of the Deity."

- C. H. Spurgeon

MDM

April 24, 2006 2:29 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

paul g,
you said it correctly! your analysis of the trinity is a series of "simple man-made analogies" while the Trinity doctorine is found all through Scripture.

Examine the Hebrew word ELOHIM, the first word used for God in the Bible. Genesis 1:1. ELOHIM is of the plural form of Hebrew words and as such referes explicitly to 'more than two' as Hebrew has specific forms for singular and dual words.

In the Holy and infallable scripture which God gave to His chosen people He refered to Himself as being 'more than 2'.

MDM

April 24, 2006 2:39 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

April 24, 2006 2:47 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

April 24, 2006 2:52 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

PB,
You should read
Berkhof Louis Trinity

MDM

April 24, 2006 2:55 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Please do not copy and paste large amounts of information as it clogs up my blog. I appreciate when points are clear and concise. Often better to make one small good point then many long ones.

All these men in many areas never completely broke away from the catholic church.

I am reforming more into the image of Christ. NOT THE REFORMED CHURCH. The reformed churches have been a part of burning people alive for not holding the trinity.
Magi:
You missed Paul G's point.
Elohim
I have never met a Jew believing Judaism that Holds to multiple people being God. The trinity is blasphemous to them. Yet people want to use the word Elohim from the OLD TESTAMENT to prove there are more people in God. Elhoim is not even in most bibles but is translated simply LORD. To which scripture tells us there is ONE LORD namely JESUS CHRIST.

April 24, 2006 3:06 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

I did not miss paul g's point at all and I hope the Irony is not lost on him that he attemts to explain away the trinity with "man made alegories" while scripture tells us differently. Then states that if we cannot understand his "man made alegories" then we have no hope of understanding scripture.

Remove the large cut and pasts if you like PB they were mainly to point out to you that Puritans hold to the Trinity as truth.

As to Elohim, it is in the original Hebrew, of course it will not appear in the English translations. I was pointing out that while we do not have a corect word in English to include all the subtlties of Elohim and its indication of a plural nature it does not change the fact that Elohim does refer to pluraity within unity. A plural word used to describe a singular God.

MDM

April 24, 2006 4:34 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

PB,
read The Trinity: False polytheism or Correct doctorine?

MDM

April 24, 2006 4:36 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

PB,
i'd also advise against seeking the Jewish understanding of the Godhead since they do not recognise Jesus as the Messiah. This lack of insight is not because the scriptures are wrong but rather that their eyes are clodes to the truth.

MDM

April 24, 2006 4:44 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

My point is valid for Elohim: The Jews who naturally speak their own language never confused God into multiple people.

Mystery revealed:Jesus
With your spiritual eyes looking at JESUS I would rejoice to hear you say this about your Heavenly Father:

"From now on I know YOU and have Seen YOU" Jn 14:7

April 24, 2006 5:11 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

April 24, 2006 7:45 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

PB,
You bring up John 14 but alter the text.
"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

We have seen the Father because He is IN Jesus, not because He IS Jesus. Just as non-christians will see Christ in those who are His own, Christians are NOT Christ. But More than this, Jesus is not simply a vessel for The Father to dwell in but is also God at the same time.

The center of Jesus' identity is His relation to the Father, a relation of such intimacy that Jesus can say anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. Here we have the language of agency, reflecting the idea that one's representative is "like to himself". But the way Jesus describes this relationship goes far beyond the notion of an agent, for he speaks of a mutual indwelling: "I am in the Father, and . . . the Father is in me." He does not simply represent the Father, he presents him. Such complete union means that Jesus' words and deeds have their source in the Father. Jesus may be the Father's agent, but the Father is also the agent at work through Jesus. Jesus does NOT say, however, that he IS the Father. Throughout the gospel Jesus maintains a careful distinction between his oneness with God and his distinctness from Him.

Lets look at verses 10-13
Jesus is speaking: "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father."

What does this verse suggest about GOD?

That The Father is IN Jesus.
That Jesus does not speak His Own message but rather the Father, living in Jesus is Doing HIS work.
Jesus' ministry is not for His OWN glory but He brings glory to the FATHER.

If you could actually adress this scripture rather than ignoring it as you did with John 1:1 and "The Word was with GOD..." that would be appriciated.

Note again that nowhere in scripture, the Doctorine of the Trinity or my own words has there EVER been any suggestion that there is more than one God nor thet Jesus is not GOd.

MDM

April 24, 2006 10:15 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

modern day magi,
Instead of a allegory like to give a Revelation 17:5

This is a picture of the of the
Mother Prostitute (church) who has a relationship with more then one person,and so do all her daughters (churches)!
Note!
It is the Mother Prostitute who murdered those who bore the testimony of Jesus! v:6

April 25, 2006 8:28 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Oh!I forget.
A Prostitute (church) has always more than one person,
no matter how she rearranges her doctrines.
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

April 25, 2006 9:44 AM   Edit
Blogger ajlin said...

paul g:
soundin' a bit like Harold Camping in those last comments.
And you're still not dealing with the actual doctrinal texts of Scripture.
1. Does "with God" mean anything at all in John 1:1? (And why is his phrase added to the phrase "was God", which precedes it?)
2. Does "came from the Father" mean anything at all in John 1:14?
3. What did Jesus mean when He said, "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also" in John 14:7.
4. What does Jesus mean when He prays, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed" in John 17:5?

Notice especially that in John 1:1 and John 17:5, a relationship is spoken of -that the Word is with God; that Jesus is with the Father- from "the beginning" as in John 1:1 or from "before the world existed" in John 17:5. So the idea that these verses are somehow speaking of the Incarnation simply won't cut it. Presented in these Scriptures and others is the fundamental idea that there is ONE GOD and yet that ONE GOD has always existed in a state of real relationship between real Persons.

April 25, 2006 10:21 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

ajlin,
All those points have been answered by PB and other writers excellently.
In understanding of Scripture, there is a very Important rule.

"Never override a Primary statement
with a Secondary statement."

Example:
The Lord thy God is one.
Even if an Angel of God said!
" the Lord thy God is three."
Do not believe them, they are deceived and understand nothing!

To be brothers, we must have the same Father with the same Name, if not? we are not brothers.

I pray to my heavenly Father Jesus Christ, that He may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God.

April 25, 2006 5:33 PM   Edit
Anonymous katie said...

Paul wrote:
Never override a Primary statement
with a Secondary statement."

Example:
The Lord thy God is one.
Even if an Angel of God said!
" the Lord thy God is three."
Do not believe them, they are deceived and understand nothing!


I may be reading this wrong but is Paul saying that if something seems (I emphasise seems cause the bible does not contradict itself - which is why we need the doctrine of the trinity to understand the complex nature of our one God) to contradict one thing in the bible the contradicting thing is not true and of the devil (angel of light).

The scriptures that have been put forth is john 1:1 says "The Word was with GOD..." are you (Paul) saying that because this seems to contradict that God is one then it is from an 'angel of light' (devil).

if so that seems ridiculous ...of course if something contradicts scripture it is wrong...but we are not talking about secondary sources here. there are many scriptures that support the trinity...scripture is the primary...just because it is hard for you to comprehend you have no right to just ignore it ...how would you deal with "The Word was with GOD..." as a primary reference to God if the trinity is false - dont just ignore the question I would love to see it convincingly dealt with because many verses like this thus far have been ignored!

April 25, 2006 6:36 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
- 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Never can we ignore a single jot or tittle of scripture for any reason. Especially if it is simply outside our understanding. Scripture does not contradict itself ever.

Saying that we can use "and the Word was God" but must ignore "and the Word was with God" is blatantly picking and chosing scriptures to support a position not building theology upon the Truth of the Word.

What we have so far in this debate are people using all of scripture to build a position of Spiritual understanding ie "The Trinity" and others using some scriptures and suggesting that other parts of scripture is false and lies to support their postion of "Oneness Theology".

Clearly if this is the method of continuing the debate then one side is far more heavily supported by scriptures than the other and we should make our judgments accordingly.

MDM

April 25, 2006 6:53 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

Paul g,
we are not suggesting that one scripture will override another. This never happens. Rather that to have a complete and full understanding of God we must utilise ALL scripture and not just some parts of it.

MDM

April 26, 2006 7:09 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

katie:
I will answer John I:I ,

modern day magi:
The Bible is full of Allegory's,
your trinity doctrine is an Allegory
a man made Allegory and it is not in the Bible.
The doctrine of God is the most important doctrine!
2 Cor.11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused
you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Here we see, that you should be joined to one (person) husband, and
not to three (persons).
And if you are espoused to three persons, then you are a Harlot!
Paul espoused you to one person,
Satan espoused you to three persons

Make no mistake!
the Lord does not make distinction
between a calvinist Harlot or an armenian Harlot.
A Harlot is a Harlot no mater what denomination or creed.
So make every effort to be a chaste
Bride to Jesus Christ (alone).
The first Adam was joined to a Harlot.
The second Adam is joined to a virgin Bride which is spotless.

John I:I
Because you can not understand it in Greek or in English, I will write in the spirit!
v:1
In the beginning was Jesus,
and Jesus was with Himself,
and Jesus was God.
2 Jesus was in the beginning with Himself,
3 All things came into being by Jesus, and apart from Jesus nothing
came into being that has come into being.
4 In Jesus was life, and the life was the light of man.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

If God is one, and the only person then he has to be with himself. If God is self existing he MUST EXIST WITH HIMSELF.

All the answers are in verse John 1:5 if you can't understand this it is becausee you are in darkness and do not comprehend it.

Why the wise men get it wrong (Louise Berkoff) is because of their presupposition that God is 3 persons. They zero in on the unobvious and miss the obvious.

I know the God of the bible his name is "Not Elohim" and He is NOT a plural God.
His name is Jesus

If you have a problem with this then you will answer to my God Jesus Christ.

April 27, 2006 12:37 PM   Edit
Anonymous katie said...

wow paul very interesting that you have to change scripture to prove your point!!

I dont accept your "spiritual" interpretation of john 1.1 I would rather accept what God has to say in his word - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." the verse really speaks for itself I see no need to add to it like you did.

April 27, 2006 2:03 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." - Revelation 22:18-19

Be very carful when you alter scripture to fit with a belief.
One must always atler their beliefs to fit with scripture.

MDM

April 27, 2006 8:23 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will — to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory."
- Ephesians 1:3-14

1. "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" - The Father is clearly the Fether of Jesus and not simply Jesus.

2. "He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ" - We are adopted through Jesus not by Jesus.

3. "to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves." - The One He loves is Jesus in whom we recieve grace. This does not say God loves Himself.

4. "And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ" - Again not He purposed in Himself but in Jesus.

5. "to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ." - Even Jesus is under the Head of the Father, and submits to the Father. This is especially seen before the crucifixion.

6. "Holy Spirit" - In this one passage all three of the Trinity are reffered to. If it were merely three manifestations or modes of the Jesus then it would not change the referencing term in this passage. This passage speaks of the Three roles, the three of the One Triune God each have.

Without re-writing this passage how do you explain the clear and explicit references to The Father, Christ and Holy Spirit?

MDM

April 27, 2006 9:13 PM   Edit
Blogger tracifish said...

Please read this again:

"Modern Day Magi said...

indeed paul g,
the middle section of John 1:1 tells us that "The Word was God" I am not refuting this. Jesus is God.
How do you explain the next part of this verse, that "The Word was with God"?
It is very clear that Jesus was with God while He is also God. Do you ignore or edit out this portion of he verse as the JW's do?

If Jesus is not begotten of the Father, that is the Son of God then Jesus is a liar a He often calls Himself the Son of God. Jesus cannot be His own Father unless the Trinity holds true. To suggest that Jesus IS His own Father and that the Trinity is false at the same time is like attempting to reason that Jesus was a woman.

My God says nothing is impossible for Him yet you say he can not be a tri-unity."

It is well said.

May 24, 2006 7:49 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

tracefish:
Please read "Word Was With God"

"...Jesus is a liar a He often calls Himself the Son of God"

Actually Jesus never called himself the "Son of God" but always called himself "The Son of Man".

When confronted about if he is the Son of God he says: "Yes, It is as you say.".

The bible says that God is not 3 but 1.

May 25, 2006 9:55 AM   Edit
Blogger Admin said...

Even Doubting Thomas said, "My Lord and My God" Jesus is God

June 02, 2006 10:52 PM   Edit
Blogger Charlie Chocco said...

Trinity is a name, not a description. It doesn't appear in the Bible. It doesn't appear in the Bible. 'The Trinity' is a doctrine which teaches cooperative, loving unity between individuals. Jesus taught cooperative loving unity between individuals.

The God of Gods is the Love of God. The God of the '3' Gods is Love. Have you ever loved someone in perfect synchronisation?

April 27, 2007 11:05 AM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is not necessary to try all successively

March 05, 2010 6:47 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, really.

March 13, 2010 4:47 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

biblicalunitarian.com

It explains everything there.

January 11, 2013 9:18 AM   Edit
Blogger stephen said...

Puritan Belief? Oh dear, you don't have much Puritan belief on here. They were trinitarian. It is NOT a Roman Catholic doctrine. Bad history and bad theology!

February 10, 2015 2:12 AM   Edit
Blogger stephen said...

John 10:36
[36] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
It is somewhat alarming that you manage a blog post but don't even have a rudimentary understanding of the Bible. You post 'Jesus never called Himself the Son of God.' What do you think He meant in the above verse quoted? You ought to at least know something of the Bible before making such basic blunders.

February 10, 2015 2:24 AM   Edit
Blogger stephen said...

John 10:36
[36] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
It is somewhat alarming that you manage a blog post but don't even have a rudimentary understanding of the Bible. You post 'Jesus never called Himself the Son of God.' What do you think He meant in the above verse quoted? You ought to at least know something of the Bible before making such basic blunders.

February 10, 2015 2:26 AM   Edit

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