Michael Servetus - Burnt for Denying the Trinity
Michael Servetus was Burnt Alive after evidence given by John Calvin to the catholic inquisition. Michael was charged with heresy for denying the number one catholic doctrine the trinity.John Calvin - Good & Bad
Firstly John Calvin is the man who first formalised TULIP at the Synod of Dordt and for this I respect him. However in many aspects of his belief he was still a catholic. He held the trinity and infant baptism. Both of these things Michael Servetus opposed and as a result he was burnt alive.
Michael Servetus Early Years
Genius would be a good word to describe his mind in his youth. He read the bible front to back in its original languages and also was an amazing scientist with vivid knowledge in astronomy, meteorology and geography. He had an intimate understanding of anatomy and medicine and spent most of his life as a doctor. He was also the first European to describe Pulmonary circulation.
Writings
Michael servetus wrote books on medicine and many topics however it was his books on theology that led to his death. Their titles are:
* On the Errors of the Trinity
* Dialogues on the Trinity
* On the Justice of Christ's Reign (He also knew a lot about laws or jurisprudence)
During his time he sent many letters to John Calvin on the subject and Calvins friends. These discussions were often heated and caused them to have a hatred towards him.
Imprisonment
Michael was imprisoned on numerous occasions and released due to inconclusive evidence from the catholic church. He was hated by many and was recognised attending a sermon by John Calvin in Geneva to which authorities were alerted and he was captured and tried by a court for denying the trinity and infant baptism.
John Calvins Evidence Used to Sentence Michael Servetus to Death
John Calvin sent much of their correspondence as evidence against Him which was used to sentence him to death by burning. John Calvin thought death by sword was more appropriate.
Last Words:
Even after all the backstabbing it would appear Michael still regarded his friends such as John Calvin a Christian. Salvation belongs to the Lord and not our intellect.
"I will burn, but this is a mere event. We shall continue our discussion in eternity... Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me." (29 Sep 1511 - 27 Oct 1553)(ONLY 42 Years Old)
Add Your Comment(44)
Michael Servetus - Burnt for Denying the TrinityPosted by Correy Thursday, April 27, 2006
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
44 Comments:
"Servetus rejected the doctrine of original sin and the entire theory of salvation based upon it, including the doctrines of Christ's dual nature and the vicarious atonement effected by his death. He believed Jesus had one nature, at once fully human and divine, and that Jesus was not another being of the godhead separate from the Father, but God come to earth. Other human beings, touched by Christian grace, could overcome sin and themselves become progressively divine. He thought of the trinity as manifesting an "economy" of the forms of activity which God could bring into play. Christ did not always exist. Once but a shadow, he had been brought to substantial existence when God needed to exercise that form of activity. In some future time he would no longer be a distinct mode of divine expression."
So according to this 'great man of spiritual enlightenment' people can become divine and jesus did not always exist.
I'd say his theology is questionable at best.
MDM
Your knowledge of church history is not very accurate and I'm sure you probably won't even allow this comment.
1) Servetus also denied the Deity of Christ. And you laud him as a great man? Go here and read section 5: http://www.vor.org/rbdisk/calvin/ci_html/2_14.htm
2) Calvin pleaded with Servetus to repent because he knew that the punishment of the time was death. He did not want that to occur. But in his arrogance Servetus did not repent of his false doctrine. I suggest you read Philip Schaff's account. He was no Calvinist.
3) Even your take on Watts was skewed to suit your false view of the Godhead. Watts found it a difficult doctrine to be sure but he had a humble approach and in several sermons admitted he just did not understand. You are more akin to Servetus.
4) You hold many doctrines opposed to the Puritans so you should change your name or at least your tagline. It is false advertising at best and deception at worst.
I could go on but I'll stop there. Please repent and turn to Christ. Your lauding of Servetus has made it obvious that things are far worse for you than I orignally thought.
"Firstly John Calvin is the man who first formalised TULIP at the Synod of Dordt and for this I respect him."
You are mistaken:
John Calvin: 1509-1564
Synod at Dordrecht: 1618-19
Furthermore, I have often wondered what people intend by bringing the burning of Servetus up. Mostly it seems to be an attempt to slander Calvin, and in this way somehow discredit those things which he held to. Yet, as to Calvin's teachings, they are either good and true, or they are not. As far as I am concerned, things like the doctrine of election were truth from all eternity, and whether or not John Calvin wrote of it does not make it any more or any less true. As to infant baptism - how is it that his doctrine was like the catholic doctrine? I would like for you to demonstrate this to me.
Regarding his dealings with Servetus, if Calvin was wrong for turning Servetus over, God will judge him also. And it will be a proper judgement.
PB, do you truly know what it is that Servetus held to? Do you know all of the things which he wrote? I doubt it. If I recall correctly, John Owen would not even repeat things that Servetus had written and said, as they were so blasphemous.
And here you are, identifying yourself with him. You seem to be awfully tied up with your quest to prove yourself right, and in the process have done much damage.
I was doing some catching up on the post here.
Let me see if I understand what it is you are saying about Jesus and the Trinity Puritan.
If I understand your argument/logic correctly what you are saying is.....
Jesus is the Father. The Word made flesh. "Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us".
Jesus is the Spirit. "I am with you always""I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".
Jesus IS! "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am".
Is that what you have been trying to teach here?
Firstly I am not trying to defend every one of Servetus beliefs. As I wouldn't defend every single belief of Bunyan, Spurgeon, Calvin etc
I defend one belief and this belief is in my Lord Jesus Christ who saved me from my Sin because of His great love. I will never be lost because Jesus is my mighty Savior. My Lord, My God, Jesus is all to me and consumes me.
Jesus Himself is the Purity or Puritan belief of the gospel message that I love to proclaim.
I personally enjoy the doctrines of Calvin/Grace/TULIP because I see them on every page of scripture.
I also defend Jesus Christ being the one true God of heaven to which there is no other as I see this on every page of scripture.
The facts are Servetus was murdered like many before Him and after Him for denying the catholic doctrine the trinity. He was not some nut case as his achievements in medicine show. Personally I believe that John Calvin will not be condemned for his roll in this murder but rather by the blood of Jesus will inherit eternal life. Interesting that the same inquisitition wanted his blood for a time to which he had to flee with Servetus.
I praise Jesus that he has placed me in a country where he has given freedom of religion. Otherwise I am sure I would be condemned to death by the religious leaders of the day like Servetus was and Jesus was. ("Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.")
I certainly do not call myself a teacher for I have one teacher who is Jesus and proclaim His Glad Tidings.
I am always saddened when I hear about the mighty men of God like John Calvin and others when they partook in the murder of other believes of Jesus as history shows.
At the root of all this is catholicism. Those men did not totally come out of her the Babylonian harlot Church. They still believe in that evil wicked devilish and satanic trinity doctrine which was cooked up in hell in the hearts of unbelieving catholic bishops.
This evil and wicked doctrine has always produced murderers and DOES NOT PRODUCE BELIEVERS IN JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.
With every deceit and craftiness they demote the Lord Jesus Christ to a lower position or lesser God. My neighbour Toby said once to me when he came back from church "They always put Jesus on the BACKBURNER" That is exactly what they are doing they put Jesus on the BACKBURNERS in their preaching and DOCTRINES.
Remember that this wicked trinity doctrine always produced wicked murderers like Cain.
As for you. You should have Jesus at the FRONTBURNER shining brightly as the Alpha and the Omega. The first and the last. The King of Kings. And the Lord of Lords. He should be on the FRONTBURNER of your heart as the LOVER OF YOUR SOULS.
What exactly is the "catholic doctrine the trinity"?
I wish to understand what exactly it is you are trying to express a belief in.
You advertise your blog thusly:
"The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone."
You try and justify your title by saying:
"Jesus Himself is the Purity or Puritan belief of the gospel message that I love to proclaim."
That is deceptive. Honestly, you and Paul G need to step back and truly study church history for the things said here are utterly absurd. Your interpretations of scripture are clearly not of the Lord. May the Lord give you eyes to see.
Puritan Belief,
please, I beg earnestly, I plead with you, I humbly ask in the sweet and precious name of the LORD Jesus Christ, please read this essay below, carefully, slowly, thoughtfully and most importantly, prayerfully:
The Burning of Michael Servetus
Emanuel Stickelberger’s Calvin
An Authentic Account of the Life & Ministry of John Calvin
I used to believe all the negative horrible untrue things said about John Calvin, I am ashamed of myself now for having believed all the lies, without first checking out all I could and leaving no stone unturned in the quest of the "true-truth." Thank God for the gift of repentance!!! Some of the negative stuff that is now on the Internet about John Calvin is absolutely shocking and every single person that adds another idle untrue word to the already mounting damning weight of evidence that is there, are heaping up hot coals upon their heads, not only upon themselves but on others as well, and they will be brought to account before the thrice times holy God on judgment day. What a terrible day that is going to be for many....
I am not a John Calvin worshipper.
I worship the LORD God Almighty alone and I work out my own salvation with literal fear and trembling. Something not many professing Christians do these days. They have no fear of God before their eyes. John Calvin was truly a God fearing man. Are you?
Calvin
By Emanuel Stickelberger
Few great men have been so consistently misunderstood as Calvin and the eminent Swiss man of letters, Emanuel Stickelberger, throws a vivid light upon both the man and his times.
Stickelberger sees the pale, frail man of Geneva against the background of the tumultuous times in which he lived. His iron will, constant struggle with ill health, utter dedication to his task, almost super-human capacity for work and indifference to financial reward, are all arrestingly portrayed.
Stickelberger paints his portrait with a remarkable economy of words and with a fine sense of drama. The result is a vivid and fascinating study of a man and an epoch, that holds the reader's attention from the first page to the last.
WOW. Yes, let's defend a man being burned alive in the following manner:
"When the executioner began his work, Servetus whispered with trembling voice: 'Oh God, Oh God!' The thwarted Farel snapped at him: 'Have you nothing else to say?' This time Servetus replied to him: 'What else might I do, but speak of God!' Thereupon he was lifted onto the pyre and chained to the stake. A wreath strewn with sulfur was placed on his head. When the faggots were ignited, a piercing cry of horror broke from him. 'Mercy, mercy!' he cried. For more than half an hour the horrible agony continued, for the pyre had been made of half-green wood, which burned slowly. 'Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me,' the tormented man cried from the midst of the flames ...."
All for want of a proper adjective ("Farel noted that Servetus might have been saved by shifting the position of the adjective and confessing Christ as the Eternal Son rather than as the Son of the Eternal God.").
Ah, yes, Christian agape at its finest.
(http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm)
The Trinity (from NewAdvent.com):
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.
So many here "believe it". Yet, no one can actually visualize or comprehend it in any real way. No one can wrap their minds around it any more than they can comprehend a circle having four sides. Yet, one's salvation itself apparently hinges on grasping this obtuse and incomprehensible doctrine!
Someone please explain this to me.
Firstly, I love the doctrines of election. I love TULIP. Calvin is a great man of God who I believe I will see in glory. It just so happens that he never got rid of all his catholic doctrines and as a result he was even if in a small manner part of the murder of Michael Servetus.
The trinity is not the central doctrine of the Christian religion the doctrine of Christ Himself is. He is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
The Lord has given me eyes to see and I have seen Jesus and his glory and have been born again. The world hates me for this but my brothers in Christ love me for this. I can not stop speaking of the one that saved me in the hope that those who hear of Jesus who I proclaim will flee to Jesus for eternal life.
Not a doctrine but Jesus Himself. I am an advocate to Jesus. He is the true Word of God who became flesh dwelt among us and is now in us (Born Again) the hope of glory. Judgement day will not be about did you believe in the trinity but did you believe in Jesus. To those who did, they will inherit eternal life to those who didn't will be told to prepare for the devil and his angels in Hell.
In relation to explaining where Christianity Hinges:
My Bible says this:
...Even to them that believe on his name
This name is Jesus Christ and to believe in Him is to be born not of the will of Men but of God. Not to follow men but to follow God. This God is fully and completely Jesus Christ who is all and in all. The one whom all thing are made for Him and By Him.
In relation to the blog title and definiton please read one of my earlier posts "About Puritan Belief".
Dan Corner of evangelicaloutreach.org, has one leg straddling the grave, and the other, the bottomless pit. Woe is him if he does not repent, he is a worse heretic than Servetus. The lake of fire will be untold times worse that being burnt at a stake.
"Dan Corner ascribes the doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints" to the devil himself. I just have to wonder how God will respond to this. It is a fearful thing to to make such a bold stance in taking God's truth and proclaiming it comes from Satan. YIKES! I shudder for him. He is making an awful mistake. Being wrong about perseverance is one thing but ascribing the doctrine to Satan is nuts!"
Anonymous said "So many here "believe it". Yet, no one can actually visualize or comprehend it in any real way."
Yes and yes.
The issue of "who God is" which is surely the issue of the Trinity is cirtainly one of Faith. It is only though the Spirit of God revealing cirtain truths that they can be understood. "In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets."
- Ephesians 3:4-5
and "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
- 1 Corinthians 2:14
If one cannot 'believe' in the truth of God and His triune nature, it is not because it is false but rather that the Lord has not revealed this to them. This is exactly like the Death of Jesus being for our salvation. Only Christians can understand the truth of this as who else could or would believe that a God would die for His followers, so that they could have life. Christianity is the only religion which believes and preaches this.
As to not being able to understand the Trinity, that is not quite true. Firstly it should not surprise anyone that we connot fully and compleatly understand and comprehend our Maker. How can a pot understand the potter? Christianity is different from other religions in that we have a Knowable God. Jesus is God made flesh, God revealed Hiself to mankind over 2000 years ago. Now Just because God is knowable does not mean we can know all about Him. I have a very close relationship with my sisters, one of them in particular, yet I do not know EVERYTHING about her. Hopw could I expect to know everything about God.
"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings."
- Proverbs 25:2
Understanding of a matter does not have to equate to being able to explain it. It is difficult to put a description of the infinte wonder of God into finite language and illustrations. Also no matter how good the explinations there will always be those who are "ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving. Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
- Matthew 13:14-15 from
Isaiah 6:9-10
A Christian's understanding of the Trinity does not make it true but the Truth of God revealed Christians makes them believe in the Trinity.
MDM
Case 1)
I believe that programming language works.
I do not understand how or why.
I could not adequately explain programming language to anyone.
That this blog is possible is evidence that programming language does in fact work. The internet is full of evidence that programming language works.
Case 2)
I believe that the One True God of the Bible is Triune in Nature.
I do not completly understand how or why this is possible.
I could not adequately explain the fullness of God's glory and infinite triunity to anyone.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." is evidence that the Trinity doctorine is True. All throughout scripture is evidence that the Trinity is in fact true.
Douglas:
You seem to be all about bringing down men in your comments. I would love for this to change.
I am about lifting up Jesus the capstone of my faith. Does he occupy the highest position of your faith. Or is he the second person in line to another?
Magi:
Since John 1:1 seems to be such a stumbling stone for you I did a post on John 1. My hope for you is to KNOW the Father.
An interesting note for this discussion:
The sermon at my church congregation this Sunday was from John 14:15-17, which reads:
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you." (ESV)
Much could be said about this thoroughly Trinitarian passage, but I will confine my comment to an observation concerning one word, "another" in the phrase "another Helper". You may know that this word "another", according to the original language, indicates "another of the same". By the definition of this one word, then, we understand that there is an essential unity between Christ and the Spirit- they are "the same", but there is also a real distinction between Christ and the Spirit- the Spirit is called "another" by Christ.
This passage, as well as the other passages already mentioned in John, Ephesians, etc., where the Bible clearly teaches that there is ONE GOD and that there is an identity between the Father, Son, and Spirit, yet there is also a REAL DISTINCTION between the Father, the Son and the Spirit, must be either thrown out or rationalized away so that they are rendered completely meaningless if one wishes to hold to any heretical view of the Godhead.
ajlin
I really appreciate your comments because you don't attack me personally. Many thanks ajlin.
"another"
Jesus does say he would send another helper but guess who he says this helper is:
"I will come to you"
"The Father and I will come and make our abode in you"
"This helper is even called the Spirit of Christ and unless Jesus Christ be in you then you are a reprobate."
I love how scripture does this.
ajlin
There are 2 worlds if you like a world that we can see and touch or in the flesh and a spiritual world. (John 3)
Now Jesus had been with us in flesh and blood but he said he must send another helper. He simply meant that he was going to come back in the power of the Spirit as Corinthians says. From now on we no longer recognise Jesus according to the flesh. We recognise Him by the Spirit, The Holy Spirit, Jesus inside us.
And guess who is the Father of Creation:
The one who is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of every creature: In other words God is invisible (Spirit) But has become part of his creation (flesh and blood or Fully Man, Fully God) Scripture tells us that it was Christ who created things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, dominions, principalities or powers. All things were created BY HIM AND FOR HIM. Col 1:15-16
This God created Himself into His own creation gave himself a name and said that those who believe on Him shall be saved.
Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Oh how lovely it was when the Lord saved me by revealing His Son in my heart and I cried out on His name, Jesus Christ.
PB,
the truth is not or never will be a stumbling block. I do know the Father, just as I know His Son, my Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, and His Spirit which dwells within me.
God is triune, He is not multiple.
MDM
puritan belief:
As far as I have seen, you do not seem to want to accept the label "Unitarian Modalist", but your last comment in this thread was entirely in line with the position that theologians have given this label to the point where it could be offered as the very definition of Unitarian Modalism.
And what the Unitarian Modalist position does not adequately address is passages in Scripture that clearly indicate a relationship of real persons within the Godhead, such as John 1:1 and John 17:5. Both of these verses speak of a pre-incarnate relationship between the "Word" and "God" (though the Word also is God- there is only one God) and, to state the same truth a different way, between Jesus and the Father. A real unity is presented- no one in this conversation is presenting polytheism- but your position has been consistent in overlooking the basic meaning of verses or even adding to the witness of Scripture in order to limit the revelation of God to that which can be completely comprehended by human reason unaided by the Holy Spirit.
Posted with prayer,
-Andrew
John 17:3 clearly equates knowledge of, and belief in, God the Father, (distinct from Jesus Christ, God the Son), with eternal life.
Furthermore, Matt. 10:40 sets up an unbreakable chain whereby rejection of a Christian is rejection of Christ, and rejection of Christ is rejection of the Father who sent Christ. The opposite also holds true. Rejection of the Father equals rejection of the Son equals rejection of His disciple.
Lastly, Matt. 11:27 enunciates the profound truth that no man can know the Father (distinct from the Son) except the Son reveal Him. The Son does not reveal the Father to all because all are not His sheep, nor were all given Him by the Father.
The execution of Servetus was unanimously agreed as just by all Protestant Reformed leaders throughout Europe. The temporary pain experienced by Servetus at the stake is inconsequential when compared to the pain he is currently experiencing and will be experiencing for all eternity.
www.iconbusters.com
Rand:
Many thanks for the comment.
John 17:3 is a verse that I have to deal with in depth comparing scripture with scripture with Jehovah Witnesses.
They use it to show that God the Father or Jehovah is distict in the same way that you do. It is better to hold straight scripture Rand? Why not just believe the Father and Jesus are ONE.
Matthew 11:27
Isn't it interesting that the Son reveals the Father to those whom HE CHOOSES. And how does he reveal the Father?
Galatians 4:6
God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father.
Answer is obvious: Jesus reveals Himself (The Spirit of His Son) inside the believer and when this happens the believer crys out "Abba Father"
My question to you is did you call another person then Jesus your Father when you were born again? What name did you cry out on when the Spirit of Jesus was revealed in you if not on Jesus Christ?
The same spirit Fathered Jesus:
Luke 1:35
"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
In the above verse it is clear who Fathered Jesus. It is the Holy Spirit. Now how then are there three people? Can you not see that Jesus was Fathered by the Holy Spirit
The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the most fundamental of spiritual truths taught in the Bible. All Refomers and Puritans held to this orthodox belief.
Common sense dictates you ask yourself the following question: "Were all those great Christian men of old in error?"
If they were in error, they are not in Heaven, for false teachers and liars will not be found in the Holy City.
PB, it takes an immense amount of pride to believe you and Servetus know better than the greatest teachers since the Apostles.
I fear you have been sent strong delusion by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, (2 Thess. 2:10-12).
Those whom the Lord loves the Lord saves, giving them the gift to believe the truth which is necessary for their sanctification. (2 Thess. 2:13)
You can't have it both ways, PB.
Either Calvin and company are heretics in Hell who repented not of their Trinitarian heresies, or you, PB, are a heretic destined to destruction if you repent not.
Rand:
You are right Rand about all these men saying they are right about the trinity and therefore I am wrong. Imagine how Jesus and his disciples felt. The whole world disagreed with them saying they were right and he was wrong. They wanted Jesus to repent and side with them.
I side with Jesus and not the whole world. My assurance and rest is not with man but with God. My rest is with Jesus Christ.
You never answered just one of the points I raised from the scripture but have rather gone to men for your support. All the catholic church believes the trinity and they accuse men who don't as heretics. Saying "Look how many men believe this doctrine and you don't. YOU HERETIC Repent or be burned"
Why do the acts of this church? Jesus asked you Rand to Come out of Babylon, my people for her destruction will be swift and sure. Why entertain her lying doctrines for when the trinity was first publicly formalised it was said "Thus the catholic church believes". Many protestants still have a foot in her camp.
I ask you to remember back to your first love with this question I asked previously.
My question to you is did you call another person then Jesus your Father when you were born again? What name did you cry out on when the Spirit of Jesus was revealed in you if not on Jesus Christ?
PB, the literature written proving the Trinity is so vast, spanning some 1,700 years or so, that unbelievers are without excuse.
Since it is the promise of Christ that He, being the Good Shepherd, and His Spirit, being the Teacher, will lead all His people into all truth, you must ask yourself, 'Why do all the greatest prophets, preachers, teachers, evangelists throughout Church history believe and teach the doctrine of the Trinity?'
Either Christ is the liar who has failed to teach the nature of the Godhead to His people, (with the exception of PB), or Christ has fulfilled His promise to His Church, teaching them the doctrine of the Trinity.
My argument is not based solely on the popularity of a doctrine, thus making it potentially a false argument. Rather, it is based on the promises of Christ. Either Christ has placed specific members into the Body of Christ for the purpose of educating, enlightening and teaching the doctrines of God correctly and truly, or He has not, thus failing to fulfill His promise.
You must ask yourself, 'Am I, PB, the fulfillment of Christ's promise, while the myriads of others who preceded me were tares sown by the devil for the purpose of misdirecting Christians to worship a false God?'
www.iconbusters.com
Rand
Thanks for taking the time to talk to me about this topic. I do enjoy your website www.iconbusters.com
I am not the fullfillment of the promise Jesus is therefore I proclaim JESUS and no one else. Just as the scripture says
"Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM; " Mark 12:32
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12
Now I ask you Rand is Jesus this ONE or is there another 2 people you testify about? Jesus makes it clear that there is NO ONE ELSE. If Jesus Himself is not THIS ONE then he is NO ONE TO BE WORSHIPPED.
For Jesus says:
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which is to come, the Almighty."
Teachers
If Jesus had revealed to our "teachers" in the church the full truth then we could put our trust in them, throw away our bibles and just believe it because they said so. Wait a second this is catholocism.
Jesus tells us this:
"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers."
I never had three people revealed in me but ONE Spirit. And my bible tells me to do this: "2 Cor 13:5 "Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates."
If you have a scripture you would like to bring up showing me that there is someone else then Jesus who is God as well then please do so. I would rather talk about the scripture then what men say.
I want to know what Jesus has taught you Rand. I want to see that you are rejected by all these "wise men" for the sake of Christ. To worship Jesus and NO ONE ELSE is to obey the first commandment.
Be fair to me Rand and answer me this question:
My question to you is did you call another person then Jesus your Father when you were born again? What name did you cry out on when the Spirit of Jesus was revealed in you if not on Jesus Christ?
PB, you said, "If Jesus had revealed to our "teachers" in the church the full truth then we could put our trust in them, throw away our bibles and just believe it because they said so. Wait a second this is catholocism."
You misunderstand the role of teachers in the Body of Christ. Throughout history, the Lord has given members of His Body certain gifts that they may carry out specific functions for the benefit of the Body and the advancement of Christ's Kingdom.
Christ has chosen certain men to teach the doctrines contained in the Bible. To these men He has graciously given wisdom and understanding exceeding that given to other members.
Jesus has also given promises to His Body ---- that they would know the truth, being led into all truth by the Spirit, who taught the teachers and who will confirm the same doctrines with the Elect, who are not gifted as teachers.
You have identified a teaching --- the Trinity --- as false. Thus, you infer you are a teacher who knows better than the Puritans, whom you claim as spiritual kindred.
You admit the seriousness of wrongly identifying the nature of God. Christians from the 4th century until the present day also admit the seriousness of wrongly identifying the nature of God. In fact they all agreed it to be an error which has eternally fatal consequences.
Both you and the catalogue of witnesses who are pro-Trinity use Scripture to prove your points.
However, the Word of God is quite clear when it states no man can know the Father except the Son reveal Him, for the natural man understandeth not the things of the Spirit of God.
Thus, without the witness and wisdom given by the Holy Spirit, Scripture cannot be comprehended.
Therefore, either the centuries of witnesses pro-Trinity were devoid of the Holy Spirit, or you, PB, are devoid of the Holy Spirit.
No matter how you split hairs, you are, in essence, claiming to be the one true teacher given wisdom surpassing 2,000 years of consistent Trinitarian teaching.
Jospeh Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Ellen White, and L. Ron Hubbard had similar episodes of delusion.
www.iconbusters.com
Rand Winburn
Since you did use one scripture I must ask you about it:
1. When the Son revealed the Father to you Who did he reveal Him as?
2. Did Jesus ever show you that If you had known my Father you would have known me also From now on you know Him and have seen Him. Jn 14:7
Please answer at least 1 of the 2 questions above and stop trying to box me into other mens beliefs.
Stop attacking me personally and lifting up men as your teacher for your true teacher Jesus told you differently Rand: "ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things" 1 Jn 2:27 If you really are a man of God like I believe you are then you would listen to Jesus OVER the puritans and being older then myself I expect you to at least answer one of my questions.
ajlin,
Nowhere in Scripture is Jesus called God the Son.
If it would say so, then God the Son would be the second God of the trinity.
Rand Winburn,
Why do you not answer PB's two questions? Perhaps you can not.
rev.17:5
She is the Mother of all prostitute
churches, she believes that she
can have three lovers.
This is why she is called a prostitute and she teaches all of her daughter churches the trinity lie.
The call of the Bridegroom is!
Come out of her my people,so that you will not share in her sins.
Rev. 18:4
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I cannot believe that there are those who say they follow Jesus who would attempt to justify burning someone at the stake for hertical beliefs. Jesus said His kingdom was not now "of this world", and thus His servants would not fight to deliver Him from those who were intent on destrying Him. The Gospel is NEVER to be "enforced" - it cannot be (if it were, it would be merely lip service, rather than genuine belief).
Burning at the stake is one of the most horrid of deaths. If one were to argue that Servetus' death was mainly a "political" or "civil" matter, then as a Christian leader of a supposedly Christian city, Calvin most certainly could have authorized a far more "humane", merciful, means of execution than burning. That he did not speaks volumes of the sort of mercy that had been sown in his heart by his doctrine, and thus from where that doctrine actually came.
Douglas J. Bender
(Elkhart, IN)
"heretical"
"destroying"
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Servetus was right on many accounts, and perhaps wrong on others - much like ALL Christian Churches today. Servetus challenged us to prove our long-held erroneus doctrines with the Bible - And the fact that John Calvin and the Catholic Church were unable to refute a lot of what he proposed, led these groups to murder him. There is NO Biblical evidence of a "Trinity" of persons who make up "God" - and most of you reading this will become angry because I challenge you to prove it Biblically. You can't.
Religion is sick. Religion is a cult. Christian God does not exist, as well as Heaven and Hell. It is what we make of it here.
The (Trinity) is damnable heresy!
(proven by scripture, the wisdom of God and not of man).
Questions:
How many persons are the following 4 names?
And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. Acts 1:23
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Revelation 20:2
How many persons are these three names?
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
God is one person and Job worshipped the Holy One of Israel in spirit and in truth: Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God? Job 13:8
He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons. Job 13:10
Go to:
http://onelordonebook.com/trinity-is-a-damnable-heresy/
This comment has been removed by the author.
Are there any groups that are non-Trinitarian and are actually flourishing?
Yes, the Oneness United Pentecostal Church International. Amen.
The (trinity) is not only a perverse corrupt idle vain word of confusion not found in the book of the LORD, it is a doctrine of devils and a damnable heresy!
Isaiah 45:21-23
[21] Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. [22] Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Philippians 2:10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Job 13:8-10
[8] Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?
[9] Is it good that he should search you out? or as one man mocketh another, do ye so mock him?
[10] He will surely reprove you, if ye do secretly accept persons.
John 14:8-9
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 8:24-27
[24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
[25] Then said they unto him,
Who art thou?
And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
[26] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
[27] They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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