Puritan Belief

The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone.

Jesus Christ is in You

Jesus Christ is in youQ. According to scripture to be a Christian /regenerate /born-again /believer which person MUST BE IN US? Jesus Christ

2 Cor 13:5 "Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates."

The answer Holy Spirit is Technically Incorrect and Spiritually Incorrect.

Technically Incorrect: Holy Spirit simply means a spirit that is holy. The question asked which person MUST BE IN YOU. If you meant these descriptive words "Holy Spirit" is the person Jesus Christ and no other person then you would be 100% correct.

Spiritually Incorrect: I say this because scripture tells us that the Spirit always testifies to Jesus Christ.

Add Your Comment(46)

Jesus Christ is in You
Posted by Correy Edmed Monday, March 27, 2006

46 Comments:

Anonymous mrichthus said...

I am enjoying mulling this over... but I am still confused as to what you are implying... I'm looking for a connection to John 14 and your implication... here's the passage (NASB):

16-17"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

18-20"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
...
23Jesus answered and said to [Judas], "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

It seems we see Father, Son, and Spirit all dwelling "in" believers. Thoughts?

March 27, 2006 2:03 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

mrichthus: I Particularly enjoyed this bit John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you... AND I IN YOU"

You write:
It seems we see Father, Son, and Spirit all dwelling "in" believers. Thoughts?

2 Cor 13:5 "Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates."

Now the above scripture never asks us to examine if three different people are in us. It asks us if Jesus Christ is in us. For the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Jesus Christ and NO OTHER. Col 2:9

Therefore:
1. What is the NAME of the ONE person who dwells in you?

March 27, 2006 2:19 PM   Edit
Anonymous puzzled said...

Puritan Belief,
In regards to a comment made to your last post you said "I am not interested in either gut instincts or man made doctrines such as the trinity." (This post being a continuation of the last one I hope it is appropriate.)
Would it be correct then if I defined what you believe to be the true nature of God like the following.
1. The doctorine of the Trinity is false.
2. God the Father is not the Father of Jesus but actually, Jesus Christ concealed in the Old Testament.
3. Jesus Christ is the one true living God, come to Earth to redeem our sins.
4. The Holy Spirit is not the 'comforter' sent by Jesus but is actually the spirit of Jesus Himslef which indwells in believers.
Would the above statements correctly summise what you are suggesting is the 'Pure' and true interpretation of God?

March 27, 2006 10:04 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

puzzled: Many thanks for your questions. You forgot to quote the reason I said:
"First like yourself I am not interested in either gut instincts or man made doctrines such as the trinity."
This blog is called puritan belief because I want to search out the purity (Puritan) of the gospel message not the purity of mens doctrines.
Which answers your first question.

"God the Father is not the Father of Jesus but actually, Jesus Christ concealed in the Old Testament."
God the Father is Jesus Father (John 8:42) Yes Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. Do you think he isn't?

"Jesus Christ is the one true living God, come to Earth to redeem our sins."
I have to boldly agree with this as it almost says this word for word in scripture Jude 1:25 is one example. 1 John 5:20 is another.

"The Holy Spirit is not the 'comforter' sent by Jesus but is actually the spirit of Jesus Himself which indwells in believers."

According to John 14:16 The Holy Spirit is not the 'comforter' sent by Jesus but the Father. Yes Jesus Himself indwells in believers

"if I defined what you believe to be the true nature of God like the following."
NO, The true nature of God is never found in your questions which are ambiguous. The true nature of God is found in Christ who is all and is in all (Col 3:11) and also John 1:18 shows us how the true nature of God is revealed.

It seems that you are more concerned about what I am implying rather then what I have written which I believe to be biblical sound hence all my answers have been "According to scripture" Have you found anything false in what I have written? please feel free to bring it to my attention.
-------------------------
May I ask you 3 questions: (Anyone can answer)

According to scripture:
1. Was Jesus speaking literally OR using figurative language concerning His Father?
2. What is the name of your Heavenly Father?
3. What is the name of the Holy Spirit who is in you?

March 28, 2006 8:50 AM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

PB, I must confess that I am somewhat puzzled as well by your answers.

Yes, the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to testify to the person of Christ. But the Bible clearly teaches in many places that the Spirit is a distinct member of the Godhead.

Romans 8:9-11 are a very plain reference to the person of the Holy Spirit. (Called Holy to identify Him as part of the Godhead as opposed to other spirits.)

The answers to your questions are: literal, God and God.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all literal persons and yet are one. I do not see this as a manmade doctrine but as one that is taught throughout the Scripture. From Genesis 1 all the way to Revelation 22 you can find the doctrine of the Trinity.

March 28, 2006 2:43 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Gordon:
It is interesting you quote Romans 9:11 which says word for word what I have been saying from the start:

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you..."

There are not 3 different spirits described in these verses BUT one Holy Spirit namely the Spirit of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor 5:16)

Unfortunately Gordon your presumptions are not from scripture.
You wrote:
1. Was Jesus speaking literally OR using figurative language concerning His Father?
"The answers to your questions are: literal, God and God."

John 16:25
"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father."

Now if you are plainly incorrect in this perhaps what I have been saying is more scriptually sound then you think. Also you said "God and God"? I want to know which God it is you worship? God IS NOT A NAME it is a title or position just like Father or Teacher or C.E.O. His name has been revealed if you have been given the revelation please declare it.

From here you went on to say:
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit

Now you say literally yet when I compare literally what you say to scripture: "God the Son" is a phrase found no where in scripture. "God the Holy Spirit" is a phrase found no where in scripture. "God the Father" is. Now what I am doing is sticking close to scripture and letting the bible explain itself because I believe the truth will always stand.

What I can find is the Spirit of Christ, The Spirit of God, Holy Spirit, Son of God And I can certainly find the name of the Father, Can you? Or has this been hidden from you?

Now you say:
"From Genesis 1 all the way to Revelation 22"

Yet I have been the one giving scripture proofs all throughout, you have given one which backs up word for word what I have been saying concerning the person who is in us?

March 28, 2006 4:03 PM   Edit
Anonymous puzzled said...

Puritan Belief,
I hope I can adequately answer your questions.

1. Was Jesus speaking literally OR using figurative language concerning His Father?

You should continue reading after John 16:25.
"No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

"You believe at last!" Jesus answered.
- John 16:27-31
Clearly Jesus is NOT speaking figurativly about the 'Father' here. The Father is a seperate person (an incorrect term but I can't think of another to use) of the Trinity. There are many places in which Jesus uses parables and figurative speach to describe the Kingdom of Heaven and the Father to us. One such use of figurative description would be the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the Father from this parable is clearly representing our Father in Heaven.

2. What is the name of your Heavenly Father?

I am not quite sure what you are asking. I know the question seems simple enough, but Which answer do you want? It seems you are asking for Jesus' name here. There are many names attributed to God in the Bible however. The First of which Elohim from Genesis 1:1 is even a plural form. Hebrew is not like Elglish in that there is a singular, dual (specifically meaning 2) and plural (indicating more than 2) forms. Elohim is of the plural (more than 2) form. Other names include
EL: God "mighty, strong, prominent" (Genesis 7:1; Isaiah 9:6)
ELOHIM: God “Creator, Mighty and Strong” (Genesis 17:7; Jeremiah 31:33)
EL SHADDAI: “God Almighty or” "God All Sufficient" (Genesis 49:24; Micah 2:1)
ADONAI: “Lord” (Genesis 15:2; Judges 6:15)
YHWH / YAHWEH / JEHOVAH: “LORD” (Deuteronomy 6:4; Daniel 9:14)
YAHWEH-YIREH: "The Lord will Provide" (Genesis 22:14)
YAHWEH-ROPHE: "The Lord Who Heals" (Isaiah 61:1)
YAHWEH-NISSI: "The Lord Our Banner" (Exodus 17:15)
YAHWEH-M'KADDESH: "The Lord Who Sanctifies" (Leviticus 20:8)
YAHWEH-SHALOM: "The Lord Our Peace" (Judges 6:24)
YAHWEH-ELOHIM: "LORD God" (Genesis 2:4; Psalms 59:5)
YAHWEH-TSIDKENU: "The Lord Our Righteousness” (Jeremiah 33:16)
YAHWEH-ROHI: "The Lord Our Shepherd" (Psalms 23:1)
YAHWEH-SHAMMAH: "The Lord is There” (Ezekiel 48:35)
YAHWEH-SABAOTH: "The Lord of Hosts" (Isaiah 1:24; Psalms 46:7)
EL ELYON: “Most High" (Deuteronomy 26:19)
EL ROI: "God of Seeing" (Genesis 16:13)
EL-OLAM: "Everlasting God" (Psalms 90:1-3)
EL-GIBHOR: “Mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6)

3. What is the name of the Holy Spirit who is in you?
I have a similar problem here. Do you simply want the answer Jesus, or, as mrichthus said with scriptural references, that The Father, Son and Spirit each Dwell in a believer.

There is only One God, Elohim. The Tri-unity of the Father, Son/Jesus and Spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17 has the baptism of Jesus, all three of the Trinity are present.

...............................
Let us continue in search of the truth of God as we are exhorted to "seek first his kingdom and his righteousness".

To whom does Jesus pray?

March 28, 2006 4:49 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

puzzled great to hear you respond:

Everything I am talking about here needs to be given by revelation for "the Carnal mind can not understand the things of the Spirit God nor can it know it." 1 Cor 2:14

1. The KJV & NASB puts it like this:
John 16:30-31 "but this we believe that thou comest forth from God ... Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? Behold..."

Notice the question mark. In my own opinion the disciples never knew just what was going on until the resurrection and Penticost. For example these verses show them with the revelation (Mark 15:19,Luke 24:52) I love this. Also Philip never got it John 14:9

2. You have given me over 20 description names for the Father. You forgot. "My name is Jealous for I am a jealous God" yet do you pray to Mr Jealous? You seem very confused. Scripture never talks about NAMES of god like you do. (phrase never found in scripture) BUT the NAME or HIS NAME shall be called (Isaiah 9:6) I am sure that your name is not puzzled even though you title yourself this name. What is your name? Perhaps Carl or another name etc... Likewise what is the ONE true name of your heavenly Father. Can you see it revealed in scripture? If so where? Or if you can't can you testify to me this name as given to you by the Spirit of the Living God?

3. You Said:
I have a similar problem here. Do you simply want the answer Jesus
puzzled No I don't want you to please me. I want to know what has been revealed to you from heaven. I am not trying to trick you into anything but simply proclaim the truth as it is in Jesus.

The disciples were told to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
(Notice it didn't say in the names but in the NAME (singular))

Yet by revelation from Heaven may I ask which name the Saints baptised them in, in every instance of scripture

You say "There is only One God, Elohim" so is this your god and father? If so you are not my brother. Perhaps you are my brother in law. (Physical Jews would love you however hate me for physical jews have a day set apart each year to curse the name of my God)

You asked:
To whom does Jesus Pray?
Answer: The Father

March 28, 2006 5:17 PM   Edit
Anonymous puzzled said...

allow me to rephrase:
what is the name of the person to whom Jesus prays?

March 28, 2006 5:50 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

puzzled:
If you can answer the 2 questions I have asked above I will answer your question.

March 28, 2006 5:55 PM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

PB, the portion of scripture which you quoted me as quoting is actually Romans 8:9b-10a

Let me try to respond to your comment.

You said: Unfortunately Gordon your presumptions are not from scripture.
You wrote:
1. Was Jesus speaking literally OR using figurative language concerning His Father?
"The answers to your questions are: literal, God and God."


John 16:25 states more accurately that Jesus was speaking in "proverbs" (as translated by the KJV). There is a difference between a proverb and a figure of speech. But even if it was figurative language, it was figurative language to describe something that was literal. In John 10:39 Jesus states, "I and my Father are one". In John 14:9 Jesus tells Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father".

If the Father is figurative, then the Son is figurative. This is tantamount to Gnosticism.

You said, Now you say literally yet when I compare literally what you say to scripture: "God the Son" is a phrase found no where in scripture. "God the Holy Spirit" is a phrase found no where in scripture. "God the Father" is. Now what I am doing is sticking close to scripture and letting the bible explain itself because I believe the truth will always stand.

While "God the Son" may not be specifically mentioned in Scripture, the truth of it certainly is.

Consider this, if Jesus is God (and I think we would both strongly agree that He is) and refers to Himself as the Son of God, and describes Himself and His Father as being one, then would it not follow that He is God the Son?

Consider this, Isaiah 9:6 (to which you referred in another comment) tells us that a son is given unto us. Again, I think we can agree that this is referring to the coming of Jesus. If the "son" is God, do we not have "God the Son"?

Consider John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." "The Word" can only be referring to Jesus, the Son of God. Thus, you have God being seen as the Son, or "God the Son".

As for the Holy Spirit being God, while the term "God the Holy Spirit" may not be specifically mentioned in the Bible, would you deny that the Holy Spirit is God?

Brother, in all honesty, I think you are relying too strongly on semantics. Yes, we are to worship the name of Jesus. Both the Holy Spirit and the Father testify to His worthiness. But we cannot ignore the biblical truth that God is three distinct persons, yet one God who has chosen to invest the fulness of His glory in the person of Jesus Christ.

March 29, 2006 12:17 AM   Edit
Blogger Daniel said...

Puritan,

I hope that you reconsider this post. I think that you're mistaken.

March 29, 2006 4:49 AM   Edit
Blogger Doug E. said...

P.B.

I am a bit confused as to what you are really trying to say. If you would answer puzzled question as what is the name of the person to whom Jesus prays, it would be helpful. Because apart from his answers I don't know what you are looking for. Now I know you are looking for the revealed answer found in the Word of God, but what is that answer as you see it? I certainly don't know how to answer that question other than the way puzzled did.

Gordon has raised some good points too. But since I don't really know what your are trying to say I don't know if they really address it your questions.

Are you saying Jesus is the Father?
and,
Are you saying the Holy Spirit is Jesus?

Just looking for some clarity of your views,

Doug

March 29, 2006 7:40 AM   Edit
Anonymous Wendy said...

Hi PB,

I would also be interested to hear your answer to Puzzled's last question, whether or not s/he answers yours -- this seems to be quite a confusing discussion. I would really like you to put your cards on the table, as I'm finding your use of scripture somewhat bewildering.
You use Jn 16:31 to say Jesus and the Father are the same, but reading further into ch 17, Jesus says his authority has been given by the Father, and that He was sent by him.
Further, in Romans you use 8:9, but later on in v.17. it says Christians are heirs OF God and joint heirs WITH Christ. How could we inherit from and with Jesus at the same time?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, these are new ideas to me, and it would help if I could fully understand your point of view. Please don't say that I need divine revelation, as I accept that, but I would still like to hear some definitive answers.

March 29, 2006 7:54 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

"No one knows who the Son is except the Father and no one knows who the Father is except the Son, and everyone to whom the Son wills to reveal him."(Matt 11:27)

I want to know has the Father been revealed to you? However no one can talk to me plainly concerning the Father.

If Jesus Christ is not your heavenly Father who you worship in Spirit and truth. Then who is He? Who is the the one that you will be with in paradise? (Luke 23:43)

Gordon you missed the truth in Isaiah 9:6...his NAME WILL be called ...ETERNAL FATHER...

The most important commandment is this:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (Mark 12:29)

May I ask Which Lord is one? If it is not Jesus Christ then who is it?

Don't you know that I am in the Father and the Father is in me(John 14:10) Therefore if you really know Jesus you know the Father. (John 14:7)

John 17:11 "Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me"

The Fathers name is JESUS CHRIST For there is no other name greater then this name. By worshipping another you are guilty of being a Harlot.

If you can't say now that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty and bow your knee and worship Him and no other person then you are none of his.

The Son commanded the disciples to Baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (Matt 28:19)

But by revelation in every instance of Scripture they baptised Saints INTO the name of JESUS CHRIST (Acts 2:38,Acts 8:12,Acts 8:16,Acts 19:4,Acts 19:5,Rom 6:3)

If you have been immersed INTO this name then you would proclaim it as I do.

Do you not know the gospel? The gospel is Jesus Christ

March 29, 2006 9:47 AM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

PB, no one is denying that Jesus is God or that there is any other gospel beside him.

To be honest, brother, we are having difficulty understanding where you are trying to go with this discussion. Are you trying to disprove the doctrine of the Trinity? Are you trying to imply that anyone who does not see this exactly as you do is not saved?

One could infer from your words that the answer to both questions is "yes". Is this what you are trying to say? If not, then what?

God is not the author of confusion.

March 29, 2006 10:26 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Gordon: Please read just one more time what I have said. I gave plain answers which I prepared studiously and prayerfully and it is not confusing. Please check up all the scriptures I gave if my words are not clear.

If it still is not plain may I ask you to go into a room close the door and ask your heavenly Father to reveal to you if what I have said is a lie. I am not trying to convince you or beat you in an argument.

Although each of your points I could easily have rebutted I didn't except to proclaim the truth of Isaiah 9:6.

Labeling me as having confusion is not fair and not in the Spirit of Grace.

I am glad that you have the revelation that Jesus is God.

I am not saying anyone is not a Christian here.

Although you have not told me I do believe that when Jesus saved you Gordon and you cried out Abba Father. (Romans 8:15) And I believe that you cried out without confusion whole heartily on the name of Jesus Christ as a newly born child. Can you give me an AMEN.

Again I do not hold to man made doctrines, I stick close to the word of God. And what has been revealed to me by the Spirit of Christ. No I do not hold the catholic doctrine the trinity. I do believe in a triune God.

Kind Regards

March 29, 2006 10:39 AM   Edit
Blogger Doug E. said...

P.B.

Sounds like you are a modalist. That you do not believe in the three separate persons who make up the one true God. Instead you believe that there is only one God Jesus Christ, who has revealed himself in three different ways. In other words Jesus is the father, and Jesus is the Spirit.

Is this a correct understanding of your views?

March 29, 2006 10:40 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Doug: I assume you want to put me in the same category as T.D Jakes and the oneness penticostals eg modalist. I have read these statements and do not agree. It is something like Father in creation Son in salvation and spirit in regeneration.

Yet there is much scripture to disprove this line of thinking eg. Jesus will raise Himself from the dead in one scripture, another time the Holy Spirit will raise Christ from the dead, yet another time it is the Father who does this. And another time all 3 will raise him from the dead. I can not seperate their Jobs as they do and concur that Christ is all and in all.

Just wondering do you have another God then Jesus Christ who is the one true God? And ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE can you pick out anything false in what I have said.

March 29, 2006 10:56 AM   Edit
Anonymous Rob Somers said...

PB, what sort of explanation do you have for a passage like Acts 5:3-4? It would appear that Peter is equating the Holy Spirit with God. Just curious..

March 29, 2006 11:04 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Yes Rob the Holy Spirit is God. May I ask you the name of this Holy Spirit according to scripture? Please read this scripture before answering (2 Cor 5:16)

March 29, 2006 11:05 AM   Edit
Anonymous Rob Somers said...

If Peter meant the person of Jesus, I am sure he would have said that. As it is, he meant the person of the Holy Spirit, and that is what he said.

March 29, 2006 11:08 AM   Edit
Blogger TheDen said...

Hey PB,

I don't understand how you can not believe in the Trinity but believe in a Triune God. Can you please explain? I always thought that they were the same.

I'm not going to argue with you on this. Just want some clarification as the difference.

Dennis

March 29, 2006 11:25 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Ok Rob:
I am glad you bought this scripture out. I love how the scripture does this:

The word person wasn't mentioned so lets together keep pure to scripture.

Let us consider these scriptures in light of Acts 5:3-4

Acts 16:6-7
...having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

Now I ask you Rob to prayerfully consider this. In the first verse Acts 16:6 it says the Holy Spirit forbid them to speak in Asia. Then in the the next verse Acts 16:7 The spirit of Christ did not permit them to go to Bithynia.

May I ask you. Is this verse talking about 2 different Spirits speaking to Paul. Or is this the one Spirit the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Christ?

March 29, 2006 11:26 AM   Edit
Anonymous Rob Somers said...

Well to be honest PB, on the one hand, I have no problem saying that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ. On the other hand, I also maintain that they are distinct persons. Beyond that, I am trying to discern what exactly your point is, and what it is that you believe. So with that in mind, tell me, do you believe that while Christ was on earth, his father was in heaven?

March 29, 2006 11:31 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

My words are plain and my scriptures are plain. Look back and compare the amount of scriptures and scriptual phrases I have been using to prove the point compared to those who quote the man-made words of a doctrine.

I am trying to discern what exactly your point is, and what it is that you believe.

No I can not say I am of Apollos and you will know exactly what doctrine I hold or I am of Paul or I am of the modalist group. I am of Jesus and as such I don't fit into the world. I am an alien.

You said On one hand "I have no problem saying that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ."

Praise the Lord!!

Yet your other hand says the opposite. You say they are not the same spirit and different people. 2 Cor 4:13 "We have the same spirit of faith." But on your right hand you are saying there are 2 spirits. The word SPIRITS is NEVER USED in relation to GOD. For the Spirit is ONE (Singular).

Yet I have been continually name called as confused?

Let me answer your question:
Do you believe that while Christ was on earth, his father was in heaven?

Yes,

There is one Holy Spirit the Father of Jesus Christ: Let me prove this from scripture.

Luke 1:35 "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God"

In the above verse can you tell me who Fathered Jesus Christ? If it is not the ONE Holy Spirit then who is it? Who Fathered the Son of God if it was not the Holy Spirit? Is the Father a different Spirit to the Spirit mentioned in Luke 1:35?

Now this same Spirit which Fathered Jesus also upholds the whole world by his power. He causes all things to hold together and causes all things to come into being etc etc. For GOD IS SPIRIT. God does have a body and in this body of Christ dwelleth the fullness of deity.

This is your answer Rob according to scripture This Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. This Spirit is the same Spirit in Jesus Christ and in the Saints.

March 29, 2006 12:16 PM   Edit
Anonymous Rob Somers said...

Yet your other hand says the opposite. You say they are not the same spirit and different people. 2 Cor 4:13 "We have the same spirit of faith." But on your right hand you are saying there are 2 spirits. The word SPIRITS is NEVER USED in relation to GOD. For the Spirit is ONE (Singular).

Yet I have been continually name called as confused?


No, you are saying things I never said, and I would appreciate you not doing that.

As for right now I am out of time for this debate. As I am still trying to determine where you are going with all of this, I will defer making any more comments.

March 29, 2006 12:33 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Where I am going with this:

Exalting our one true God Jesus Christ.

I don't want to misrepresent anyone if you believe something different please declare it.

Best Regards.

March 29, 2006 12:38 PM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

PB, I did not mean to seem ungracious with my comment. The point I am trying to make, and if you will read over the comments you will see that others make the same point, we are having difficulty determining exactly what it is that you are saying you believe. I do not mean this in an unkind way. As I said earlier, I think that perhaps you are placing too much emphasis on semantical differences.

You state that you do not believe in the Trinity, yet you believe in a triune God. No one is trying to label you in any way. We are simply trying to find out where you stand on the topic that you presented.

You said that you were an alien and do not fit in this world. Does that mean that doctrinally you hold a position that is uniquely different from the rest of us? The Bible states that no scripture is of private interpretation.

Please do not take this as a personal attack. That is not my intent. In fact I have a high regard for you and your thoughts insomuch as we have conversed via the internet. In Christian love, I am telling you that we simply are not getting what it is that you are saying.

Perhaps you could clarify what you see as being different between the "catholic doctrine of the trinity" and what you believe is implied by a "triune God".

Perhaps you would care to elaborate what I John 5:7 means when it says, For there are three that bear record in heaven; the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one." (KJV) This seems to state that God is one God yet three distinct persons.

Again, no animosity is intended in this conversation. We are simply trying to reach a point of mutual understanding.

March 29, 2006 1:16 PM   Edit
Blogger Carl said...

Hi PB,
I have been really busy with uni lately and have not been commenting here for a while. I read this post and comments just now and it seems you have been getting defensive. I would like to let you know that I am not "puzzled" and actually laughed at the extreemly clever way you asked if it was me.
You and I have talked at length about this topic and so I will not contribute here.
Be encouraged though PB, although I get the impression you feel persecuted here I dont think it is the case.

March 29, 2006 2:08 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Gordon:
I do appreciate your kindness in your previous comment.

When you had to use a different translation in your proof that it wasn't figurative language as stated clearly by the NASB here but it was in actual fact literal language I never pulled you up on semantics but just moved on to declaring the same truth using other scriptures. For I believe scripture backs up scripture and if I am wrong then my truth will not stand.

The scripture is not discerned by semantics but the Spirit of God. (1 Cor 2:13)

When I said I was an Alien I was referring to these verses:
1 Peter 1:1 "...To those who reside as aliens..."

You too are an alien to the world. And you are absolutely correct about private interpretation. Every born again believer knows their Father. They call out Abba Father, They call out on Jesus Christ. Unfortunately this essential truth is taught out of believers so that the Father becomes unknowable and no one can boldly proclaim Him anymore. Hence the reason it is as though I am talking in another language. We are baptised into the name of JESUS spiritually not with water although this may be publicly declared later.

" ...catholic doctrine of the trinity and what you believe is implied by a "triune God".

God is triune and made up of Body- Soul-Spirit. We are made in His image and are also triune. Which scriptually is the definition of a person. Which answers also your next question. 1 John 5:7

The Father/God is Spirit but does he have 3 bodies? Or has he been made known in the one Person Jesus Christ.

John 1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son , which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

March 29, 2006 2:11 PM   Edit
Anonymous katie said...

hi, i have been reading with avid interest but just have one question - If Jesus is God and there is no such thing as the Father or the Holy Spirit (the trinity - one God in 3 persons) Then when Jesus died who was on the throne? - as i can gather from your reasoning God was dead for 3 days and was not ruling in the heavens"

March 29, 2006 2:17 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Katie your answer is found in Luke 23:43

March 29, 2006 2:19 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Carl: Did you like the brother in law joke :) Same thought pattern as yourself and I looked up IP and looked like your number ... Oh well. I wonder who Mr Puzzled is.

March 29, 2006 2:30 PM   Edit
Blogger ajlin said...

Puritan Belief,
I genuinely believe that you would be benefitted through reading through some more materials written from a Puritan perspective concerning the nature of the Trinity.
One article that has been very helpful to me in this regard is Jonathan Edwards' Unpublished Essay on the Trinity- the first article linked under the "Articles of Importance" section of my blog.

In Christ,
-Andrew

March 29, 2006 2:41 PM   Edit
Blogger Carl said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

March 29, 2006 2:54 PM   Edit
Blogger Carl said...

yeah I did chuckle at the 'brother in law' reference too. NO doubt that you meant me, your sisters husband with the subtle probing.

March 29, 2006 2:58 PM   Edit
Blogger Gordon Cloud said...

PB, the more we discuss this, the more I realize that we are not going to be able to come to a point of agreement concerning the Trinity.

I believe that, from my part, continued debate on this would prove fruitless.

March 29, 2006 3:04 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

ajlin:
Yes i have read this unpublished essay on the trinity by Jonathan Edwards And other Jonathan Edwards books which mention it breifly. Numerous times he says that it is unknowable to him. I did enjoy his writings though he is an amazing scholar.

The puritans upheld the doctrines of Grace which they get right however they mostly concur in one phrase or another the unknowable doctrine of the trinity or the Mystery it is often referred to as J Edwards does in his essay.

I believe this mystery is revealed:
Collosians 1:26-27
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

Which is the title of this post. (Jesus Christ is in you)

The OLD puritans like all of you that have been born again have had this revelation bestowed upon you when you cried out on this name to be saved JESUS CHRIST.

March 29, 2006 3:05 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Well said Gordon for the doctrine of Christ is Spiritually discerned.

"Together we have the mind of Christ"

I certainly don't profess to know all the truth but I declare the one in which all truth dwells.

Thanks for the challenge Gordon :)

March 29, 2006 3:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Nathan White said...

PB,

I haven't read all of your comments in detail, and I'm a little late coming into the discussion here, but you are advocating Modalism correct? That is, God is not three distinct persons, but only one person who appears to people in different "modes" at different times?

March 30, 2006 2:34 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Yeah a few people thought I was this: If you have a look up i answered this question after doug said it. Doesn't really make sense to me the different mode thing.

----
Doug: I assume you want to put me in the same category as T.D Jakes and the oneness penticostals eg modalist. I have read these statements and do not agree. It is something like Father in creation Son in salvation and spirit in regeneration.

Yet there is much scripture to disprove this line of thinking eg. Jesus will raise Himself from the dead in one scripture, another time the Holy Spirit will raise Christ from the dead, yet another time it is the Father who does this. And another time all 3 will raise him from the dead. I can not seperate their Jobs as they do and concur that Christ is all and in all.

March 30, 2006 2:43 PM   Edit
Blogger Nathan White said...

When you say that Christ is all and in all, are you placing Him in both categories when it comes to stuff like, say intercesion? That is, Christ intercedes to the Father on our behalf, yet He is actually interceding with Himself since He is essentially the Father?

March 30, 2006 3:53 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Nathan:
I like the way you phrased this question. Very clever.

Now a high priest represents someone who makes an offering to God through the blood of animals. However with Emmanuel He made the offering by His blood and has by definition not only become the offering but also our High priest.

Therefore we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous. And unlike before when intercession was through the Levitical priesthood it went through someone else to God. This time we are interceding directly to God and no one else because Emmanuel is our advocate.

May I ask you a question
Is Jesus interceding with His God on our behalf?

March 30, 2006 4:22 PM   Edit
Blogger Nathan White said...

“Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.” –Heb 7:25

I'm asking this: Does Jesus Christ intercede with Himself on our behalf? And if so, can you explain for me the language used ‘who come to God through Him…since He always lives to make intercession’ if Jesus Christ is the exact same being as the ‘God’ described in this passage?

March 30, 2006 4:49 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

I did answer this question Nathan let me highlight.

And unlike before when intercession was through the Levitical priesthood it went through someone else to God. This time we are interceding directly to God and no one else because Emmanuel is our advocate.

Can you not see the brilliance in this?
Emmanuael is God With Us
Advocate is One of the people.
With Jesus we are not going through some other person to get to God we are going directly to God.

I think it is fair if you answer my question:

May I ask you a question
Is Jesus interceding with His God on our behalf?

March 30, 2006 6:14 PM   Edit

<< Puritan Belief