The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone.
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"...in the day that you eat from it you will surely die" Genesis 2:17
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
STATEMENT OF FAITH
Jesus Christ is in You
Dummies Guide to Calvinism
Why Tithing Is Wrong
Know Christ By His Spirit
Does God Love Everyone?
RU486 - Australias Shame
Rich Young Ruler - Love
Knowledge of Good and Evil
His Joy
Isaac Watts
John Bunyan
John Owen
Jonathan Edwards
Charles Spurgeon
Michael Servetus
Samuel Marsden
George Whitefield
John Knox
John Newton
John Wickliffe
John Huss
William Huntington
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185 Comments:
Man already had a limited free will as we were created in the image of God, he has total freewill so it follows that we would have a limited free will.
The Tree of the knowledge of good and evil was created so that Humans could know contrast.
If we never knew the difference between good and evil then God and Satan would appear to us the same, and both be merely normal. However since the fruit was tasted, mankind now has the 'knowledge of good and evil' we can see the devil for what he is, an evil being, totally unrighteous, we can see ourselves for what we are, without Christ, unrighteous. But most importantly it is possible to see God for who he is Totally righteous and purely Good.
Without the contrast he is simply normal.
I think that your original answer was right.
God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil so that He could be a Savior. (Now we're treading on the "order of decrees" question. That answer would be a supralapsarian one.)
The Infralapsarianism one would probably be "So that man could have a choice of choosing between good and evil"
(I had to copy paste those words, and I have no idea how to pronounce them. Why can't our theological terms be short like... the theology of bran and scat?)
As a side note, I think the term is "Arminian" rather than "Arminist"
As a secondary side note, a really interesting question (one that I'm not sure Scripture answers) is why "knowledge of good and evil"?
mxu: Thanks for the tips on grammar. I will search your other question out in the scripture and get back to you.
Modern Day Magi: so when you said "it is possible to see God for who He is". Is this possible because mankind now knows good and evil?
Concerning the drunkard in the pub, does he know the goodness of the Lord or aware of the evils of Satan?
Do you think Adam knew the serpent to be evil before he partook of the fruit?
Do you think Adam knew God to be good before he partook of the fruit?
Concerning the drunkard in the pub, does he know the goodness of the Lord or aware of the evils of Satan?
Without a divine revelation none can truly know God, but the Drunkard can and does know the difference between Good and Evil. On his day of judgment, when he meets the Lord of all, he will see God in all His glory and know that God is good, and know himself to be wretched.
Without the ability to discern the difference, then God is not 'Good' or 'righteous' but simply awe-inspiring and powerful. Even without knowing that God is good his 'knee will bow and toung will confess that He is Lord'.
Do you think Adam knew the serpent to be evil before he partook of the fruit?
Do you think Adam knew God to be good before he partook of the fruit?
Before Sin entred to world and mankind became a slave to it (essentially Adam would have been able to not sin if he so chose), if Adam knew the serpent to be evil and knew God to be righteous, he would not have sinned. He was not bound to sin, until after tasting the friut, and as such would he not have chosen righteuosness over evil? It was not until after he tasted the fruit that Adam knew to fear the Lord and to obey Him. Adam instantly knew, once he was able to discern the difference, that God is good and that He would not tolerate any evil, or disobediance of His comands. before he knew the difference between good and evil Adam did not know he was sinning, and thus did not know not to do it.
If you believe as you say that God has an ultimate free will then it was impossible for Adam not to Sin in the way that he did because Gods wanted to become a Savior. For does Adams will override Gods will?
You may need to re-think this: essentially Adam would have been able to not sin if he so chose
Your comments are well thought out and I see where you are coming from. Here is a great post on Free Will - A Slave by Spurgeon if you find the time I think you will not be disappointed after reading it.
Great question.
I really appreciate this post. Y'all're discussing questions that have always been at the back of my mind, but I've never been able to even adequately articulate them, much less try to give a sound, biblical answer to 'em.
Great thoughts Puritan. This issue has confounded theologians for many years. Jonathan Edwards struggled with this question over and over again. That is, how could a perfect Being create something with such a capability of wickedness (Adam)? But essentially, your question goes a little deeper. Why place the tree in the first place? Ultimately, as I'm sure you would agree, it was done to manifest His glory -although we may not completely understand how that works.
But certainly the manifestation of God's glory is seen much more in His placing the tree in the garden, than if He left it out altogether. How would His mercy be manifested if there was no one to show mercy to? How would His wrath be shown if there was no tree -thus no possibility of anything deserving of wrath to develop? Essentially though, we know He works all things after the counsel of His will. But for those who believe that God must grant free will in order to be truly loving, thus God planted the tree to grant libertarian free will, they essentially place God in the position of serving the creature and ultimately put man on the throne as the centerpiece and focal point of the universe. God didn’t wind the clock to sit back and hope it all comes out OK, He upholds the creation moment by moment in order to glorify Himself and to make His power known.
Did I ramble too much? Sorry, this is such a deep subject. :)
SDG
Wow! Now there is a deep question.
The question, why put the tree in the garden can actually be answered two different ways depending on what you are actually asking. The first question could be the ethical one, why did God put it there, or what principle moved him to action. I suppose this is what you are really getting at and I will give my attempt at it shortly. The second question is the practical one which is why a tree and not a bush, or a shrub. Why a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, instead of a tree of separation or some other name. The answer to this question is that God is always trying to teach us something, so the way He does something involves pedagogy.
But since that is not really what you are getting at so I will go back to the first question which is, what principle or ethos caused God put the tree there in the first place. The first answer that was given was, “to give man free will.” But man already had free will; God putting the tree there was simply to test that free will. God had set up a covenant of works with Adam, and the tree was merely the one law that would express Adam's heart toward God. God being God had every right to demand from Adam his obedience, and the way he chose to test that obedience was by the tree. Adam was capable of fulfilling this covenant of works but chose otherwise.
Now of course God knew that they were going to fall. It came as no surprise to Him, Why else would we need a “lamb slain before the foundations of the world,” if He didn’t know they were going to fall. But God has seen fit to use the sin of man to fulfill his purposes, of glorifying Himself through the redemption of a people unto himself. God putting the tree there was merely a means of getting to the second tree (the cross). The cross was intentional, and it was intended long before Adam and Eve were ever created. But man, not God was the one to sin.
There is my humble attempt to answer such a deep question. Feel free to find the holes and let me know, maybe this way we can move closer to an understanding.
God Bless and thanks for your blog,
Doug
nathan white:
AMEN! you rightly say that this shows the glory of God in His mercy and his wrath.
....essentially place God in the position of serving the creature and ultimately put man on the throne
Very well put this is where free will ends up even when people say they still have the tiniest speck.
I love this bit.
He upholds the creation moment by moment in order to glorify Himself and to make His power known.
Doug:
"But God has seen fit to use the sin of man to fulfill his purposes, of glorifying Himself through the redemption of a people unto himself."
This is a great comment.
Yes the Lord is always trying to teach us things in his word. I like how you point out that the Lamb was slayed before the foundation of the world.
If it was Gods Will to be slain at calvary and redeem a people for himself as you say.
Was Adams will sufficient not to fall into Sin?
My answer here would be no. Even though Adam was a perfect man we as the redeemed in Christ have far more then Adam could ever dream of because our salvation is secure yet Adams union with God even if he still to this day was in the garden and having not partook of the fruit there would still be that one chance in which he could slip up. The lawless under the law have many.
Yet with Jesus our salvation is secured in heavenly places right now and we will worship Him for eternity because we are covered by the blood of the lamb and no one can ever snatch us out of His hands.
Puritan,
Hypothetically, Adam could have abstained from sinning, because there was no outside cause to make him sin. But in actuality he could not have abstained because God knew that He would fall and placed Adam in a situation where he would not succeed. But again Adam made the choice to sin not God. God merely made the choice to let Adam make that failing choice.
In short, I agree with your points.
Doug
Yes I accept this Doug, It is important not to make God the tempter nor the creator of Sin.
From man's perspective: Could Adam have not sinned? We know now that he disobeyed the law God set. However, what if he did obey? Was there enough goodness to be found in Adam for him to not sin? I guess not. But why??? He was created good. Does that mean he was good TOTALLY (meaning every part of him was good; his mind, heart, and will), but that he wasn't as good as he could be? (Kind of like reverse total depravity?)
Sorry if this is unconnected and hard to follow. I just got back from a wedding and am a little airheaded. :)
Julianne:
Adam was created perfect or Totally Good. In other words He was in the image of Jesus He was Body Soul and Spirit. He Sined as this was Gods will and means that the Lord used so that he could become a Savior and show His mercy.
I don't think I answered your question very well can anyone else help or did you want to try answering it?
God is omniscient. Which means God has and will always know absolutely everything. This implies that God, before He started His creative works, knew that Adam and Eve would sin. And that means God foreordained the Fall. Before anyone picks up any rocks to stone me to death, consider:
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8)
As far as God was concerned, the work of the Cross was a "fait accomplie" from the foundation of the world. If God didn't foreordain the Fall, why would He have foreodained the Cross?
Was the placing of the tree the means to bring about the Fall? Was it at least an element, a part of the mechanism that would bring about the Fall?
I'll tell you later (in glory... LOL).
:lol:
If you want to know what John Calvin taught on this issue (the human condition) I have a series on Calvin's theology at my blog -
John Calvin’s Theology (Part Three) – The Human Condition
You can view it at the link above, it is part three in a series which will last for several weeks.
PB,
You said: "He Sined as this was Gods will and means that the Lord used so that he could become a Savior and show His mercy."
Yes, I agree. I guess I was just wondering if Adam could have not sinned? Maybe it's not too important, however, I think it may tie into the why did God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden question. I really don't know why other than what Nathan wrote and yourself. Anyway, I guess I'll just be pondering all this. Good stuff. And like I always say,
"These are thoughts worth thinking."
T.B. Vick:
Yes I am of Calvin's leaning that Adam was totally perfect and like Doug said hypothetically he could have not sinned due to this perfection. However in reality Adam could not have remained obedient to God.
"tis was in fact a trial of their obedience to God" Calvin
From this perspective (mans perspective) Yes it was a trial. Just like David and Bathsheba it was a trial for David and He should not have committed adultery yet was it not Solomon whom she bore. Why did God not use any of His other Sons born in wedlock. The Lord often takes these detours for His glory.
In the case of Job, He was protected because of God It was in fact God who summoned Satan and said "Have you considered my servant Job" It was the Lord who placed the serpant in the Garden, It is interesting to note that the serpant at this stage was walking around and far more witty (crafty) then any of the other animals. When I was young I was confused with those catholic pictures that make you think he was a snake in an apple tree.
From Gods perspective when the world had not been created and there was only God it says his mind was constantly on Christ in other words the crucifixion. (The crux of every true doctrine)
I think it is safe to say this "test" was part of Gods plan so that He could secure our salvation in Christ. I think this test was all about drawing the elect by his graces and mercies unto himself.
We see both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man in this question.
1. Sovereignty of God--God reserves the right to define right and wrong.
2. Free will of man--Throughout the Bible, God tells us to demonstrate our love for Him by our obedience. This love is a choice. If Adam and Eve truly loved God more than they loved themselves or each other they would have left the tree alone.
Why put the tree in the Garden?
Perhaps He gave us this fruit to allow us to have access to all of our sinful desires.
A requirement of freewill.
And having tasted it we realise it did not fully meet our desires.
Having tasted from this tree we desire another tree.
The Tree of Life. Also located in the Garden of Eden.
Just a way out though
We are taught from birth that we are born naked into sin because of our forefathers sinning against our Creator in the garden of Edan. And because of this transgression we most go to church and eat of the knowledge of a good God and an evil Devil in order to know what we must do to keep alive… after we die in the flesh… first….
I ask each and every one of you on earth today… “Who told you… you are borne into sin?” Is it not the ones who are eating of the knowledge of a good God and an evil Devil?
Our Creator (Myholy is his Name) made each and everyone of us perfect at birth without sin. But we are not taught from the words of our Creator which is: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” We are instead deceived by the lie… and because of it, in our errors we keep dieing… How does the knowledge of good and evil deceive us?
By standing before us in front of the Creator and not allowing us to see the Creator. Blinding us to the fact… he is the forbidden fruit of the knowledge of a good God and an evil Devil. He is transforming himself from the good into the bad before our eyes so we will not go looking for our Creator. But we will instead believe that one half of him is our good Creator who is fighting to save those, who have been deceived by his other half, the evil Devil.
LOOK! He is the same tree! And the Creator made this tree
The same way the Serpent (the Wild Beast) deceived Eve (the Woman) into eating of the knowledge of a good God and an evil Devil. and the Woman deceived Adam by giving it to him... and they to their children and their children to their children and so on… down to this very day. We are still eating of the same fruit Adam and Eve eat of and died. This is why we are dieing…
A major part of the plot is also his seeking for the missing journal of Father Lewis Merton, who claimed to have visited the afterlife and returned with knowledge that would change the world. However, he died before he could announce his discovery. Ian follows in the footsteps of Merton's last journey trying to discover the missing journal.
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