Puritan Belief

The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone.

Justification - Is this true?

"I believe that Christ died for sinners, and that I shall be justified before God from the curse through his gracious acceptance of my obedience to his law. Christ makes my duties that I now do for good acceptable to his Father by virtue of his merits; and so shall I be justified."

Add Your Comment(30)

Justification - Is this true?
Posted by Correy Edmed Friday, February 17, 2006

30 Comments:

Blogger Rob Somers said...

Who said it? Just curious. I would tend to not agree with that saying.

February 17, 2006 9:08 PM   Edit
Anonymous Darrin said...

NO. We are justified through belief in the person and work of Christ. We will not stand before God and plead our works, even if done in the name of Christ. We will plead the work of Christ on our behalf; our only surety. If the very last phrase was removed, I could agree with the two statements independantly as addressing something different.

Christ does not make our works acceptable with regards to justification; only His work is acceptable unto God and that is imputed to us through faith alone.

February 17, 2006 10:44 PM   Edit
Anonymous Darrin said...

Looks like I just disagreed with John Bunyan. :-) Knowing it's Bunyan, I can't imagine he meant it as I read it.

February 18, 2006 1:46 AM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Obviously it is a false statement. It is a damnable lie. My question to puritan belief is this; do you believe that individuals who make such statements could still be regenerate people? All Arminians make equivalent statements when they say that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception. Do you, puritan belief, believe that all Arminians are unregenerate? It is a simple yes or no question. My answer is yes, all Arminians are unregenerate because they believe in justification by works, which is equivalent to the quotation made in your current blog entry.

February 18, 2006 6:10 AM   Edit
Blogger Doug E. said...

If I were a Jehovah's witness, or Mormon I would agree. But like the other commentors said, we are accepted by Christ's work. Our works will never be accepted by Christ in this world because they will always carry some measure of sin mixed in them.

Doug

February 18, 2006 8:16 AM   Edit
Blogger Mike Garner said...

Darrin,

This excerpt is in fact from a Bunyan work but you must read the very next paragraph:

Let me give an answer to this confession of thy faith:- 1. Thou believest with a fantastical faith; for this faith is nowhere described in the Word. 2. Thou believest with a false faith; because it taketh justification from the personal righteousness of Christ, and applies it to thy own. 3. This faith maketh not Christ a justifier of thy person, but of thy actions; and of thy person for thy actions' sake, which is false. 4. Therefore, this faith is deceitful, even such as will leave thee under wrath, in the day of God Almighty; for true justifying faith puts the soul, as sensible of its condition by the law, upon flying for refuge unto Christ's righteousness, which righteousness of his is not an act of grace, by which he maketh for justification, thy obedience accepted with God; but his personal obedience to the law, in doing and suffering for us what that required at our hands; this righteousness, I say, true faith accepteth; under the skirt of which, the soul being shrouded, and by it presented as spotless before God, it is accepted, and acquit from condemnation.


Bunyan clearly does not believe in this heresy

February 18, 2006 9:53 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Rob Somers:
This is from Pilgrims progress and said by a character named Ignorance. However I have heard variations of this statement said by so many people in so many ways especially from the pulpit in todays church.

Darrin:
Great answer but not as good as the character Christian who answered it as Mike points out above.

Doug:
Good answer.

Maki:
Yes you are right it is a false statement.

Mike Garner:
Thanks for telling everyone the answer.

I think pilgrims progress uses this to show that many people get the doctrine of Justification wrong and hence they are in error all through their interpretation of scripture from then on.

February 18, 2006 11:12 AM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Yes, it is a false statement, but evidently that is all you will say about it so that you can speak peace to God-haters. I'm not even so sure you would say that "Ignorance" was unregenerate in Pilgrim's Progress.

February 18, 2006 11:20 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Yes Maki ignorance was most certainly unregenerated as is anyone who believes this statement in their heart and from their heart their mouth speaketh.

The cruel death which Ignorance had to endure when he could not produce his certificate for entrance into the celestial city is one of the biggest warnings in pilgrims progress. This is by no means speaking peace to God haters when the fate of Ignorance is damnation.

Can you please read Mike Garners Answer in italics which is the reason I bought this quote out in the first place. This is evidence that to believe such a lie puts you at emnity with Christ.

February 18, 2006 11:37 AM   Edit
Anonymous Darrin said...

Dear PB,

Beware the likes of Maki as he is one of Marc Carpenter's minions from Outside the Camp. These are evil men. They've already assumed you are unregenerate if you do not denounce Bunyan as a heretic; for he was unregenerate to them. I've had contact in the past with them. Best you block their access. (They will now call me unregenerate but it wouldn't be the first time they did...check out their websites and you'll see their hatred for the brethren).

Darrin

February 18, 2006 12:19 PM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Yes, I understand exactly why you quoted this statement. You were showing what a false idea of justification is. I understand that was the reason you quoted the statement, and I also understand that you believe this to be a false statement. My point is this, you decry "false statements" all day long, yet you do not take them to there logical conclusions. All Arminians believe exactly what Ignorance said; therefore, I asked you if you believe that all Arminians are lost? Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception, or that God loves everyone without exception, or that God wishes for everyone without exception to be saved automatically believes in salvation conditioned on the work of the sinner. They automatically believe in justification by works. They automatically believe that they, "shall be justified before God from the curse through his gracious acceptance of their obedience to his law." Now, no professing "Christian" will tell you that they save themselves. However, all Arminians in fact believe this very thing. They believe that they elected themselves to salvation by conjuring up "faith". They believe that their "christ" came and died for everyone without exception; thereby, making salvation possible for all who exercise their free-will and "accept" this "christ". Under this false gospel, it is not the blood of Christ that makes the difference between salvation and damnation but the conditional work of the sinner. They do not believe in the true God of the Bible, Jesus Christ, who justifies His people conditioned on His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness alone. They are IGNORANT of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel and are going about to establish their own righteousness and they are lost (READ: Ro 10:1-4, and then read, Ro 1:16-17, 3:20-31, 4:1-8). Lastly, all who consider at least one of them to be a brother in Christ are also lost (READ: 1Jn 1:9-11). Does anyone agree?

February 18, 2006 12:20 PM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Hey darrin, which comment of mine do you deem offensive to yourself?

February 18, 2006 12:26 PM   Edit
Anonymous Darrin said...

Maki,

I do not want to dirty up PB's blog...but I checked out yours and you adhere to the statement of faith, if it can be called that, of Carpenter's Outside the Camp. If you're a Carpenterite, then it is a prudent warning for all to beware this "remnant" of about 40 or 50 worldwide who think they are the "truly elect". That will be it for me.

February 18, 2006 12:35 PM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

As I figured: unsubstantiated claims, and nonsense slander. If you don't want to post here, then feel free to post on mine.

February 18, 2006 12:38 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

"Ignorance is thy name, and as thy name is, so art thou: even this thy answer demonstrateth what I say. Ignorant thou art of what justifying righteousness is, and as ignorant how to secure thy soul through the faith of it from the heavy wrath of God. Yea, thou also art ignorant of the true effect of saving faith in this righteousness of Christ's, which is to bow and win over the heart to God in Christ, to love His name, His word, His ways, and His people."

maki: i would say that you believe in salvation by works! claiming that only belief in correct interpretation of doctorine can save a person. Personally i am still not 100% convinced of the accuracy of calvinism (although i know theat we are saved by Grace alone and not works of any kind), especially with the hyper-calvinist distortions of the doctorine of grace.
I disagree with many of the doctrinal statments you make, yet I am saved. The grace of Jesus is not conditional on my doctrinal understanding, it is His discresion and grace alone which saves me.

February 18, 2006 1:12 PM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Ahh. modern day magi, where did I make the claim that, "only belief in correct interpretation of doctorine can save a person?" You also said, "I disagree with many of the doctrinal statments you make, yet I am saved." What do you disagree with exactly? Furthermore, how do you know you are saved? By what standard do you judge yourself to be a saved (i.e. regenerate) person?

Also, where in the Bible does it teach that a person is saved by grace while lacking faith (i.e. a belief in the gospel (i.e. knowledge of the person and work of Christ))?

February 18, 2006 1:58 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

"all Arminians are unregenerate because they believe in justification by works"
An Arminian, by definition is someone opposed to Calvinist doctorine ie someone who disagrees with your interpretation of the scripture.
Without getting into the whole calivinist v arminianist debate i dont believe an arminian believes that salvation is by works even thought they believe that one must 'accept' Jesus to be saved.

Faith and Doctorine are two separate things.
Doctorine can strengthen faith but is not reliant upon it. For instance a christian may believe in either young earth creation, old earth (day = age) creation or that wierd 'gap theory' cirtainly only one can be true but all three may be christians.
A Christian may believe either calvinist theology or arminianist theology, either the nephilim were just giants or that they were angel/human hybrids, either that the original sin was eating the apple or pride...
many are the places that scripture can be interpreted in different ways. there is however only one truth, if otherwise it would not actually be truth. our belief in these things, while important, are not essential for salvation. Only the grace of Jesus who saves by His blood is sufficient.
as to how i know i am saved. this is more difficult to answer. i know i am saved because of my knowledge and faith that Jesus has saved me and that His holy spirit dwells within me. This faith and belief is not that cause of my salvation but rather the result of it.

"Also, where in the Bible does it teach that a person is saved by grace while lacking faith"

if you truly believe in
predestination, then we are saved before we are even in the womb. Many who are saved only 'become' christians later in life and thus do not have faith until later. predestination implies that we are saved before faith does it not, He called us before we were formed in the womb and He died 2000 or so years ago.

February 18, 2006 2:24 PM   Edit
Anonymous Riven said...

Brilliant stuff Maki, There is only one Lord and one gospel that can save and all glory be to Him & i am thankful that my salvation is only his doing and none of my own.

You will probably label me unregenerate, as i do believe that the Elect can have intellectual misconceptions; even about the arminian belief and perhaps have false assumptions at various periods of time.

An armenian gospel by no accounts can save and they are not my brothers.

I love how you bring a huge division and not peace between these gospels as Jesus came to do, However i believe that an unsaved person can merely utter empty words saying " i believe Jesus is the only way the truth and the life";i also believe a saved person can utter incorrect words such as "I chose to follow jesus" or when Peter denied Jesus with his mouth.

Many people make up their own God and many still call him Jesus, However i look for the Spirit to bear witness according to the true Gospel.

February 18, 2006 2:35 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

also maki...
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
matt 7 : 1-2
I hope you are not wrong in your doctorine or Jesus may find you 'unregenerate' for believing an incorrect doctorine. Just as you believe "all Arminians are unregenerate"

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them..."
- matt 7 : 15-16
we recognise, specifically false prophets, but more generally christians by their 'fruit' not their doctorine.

February 18, 2006 2:46 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Darrin:
Thank You for your concern Re Maki. Unlike Antonio and other "Trolls" who comment solely to get people to their own blogs without reading the actual post I think maki has read the post and although his comments appear to be divisive the topic is Justification and his comments so far are on topic.

Therefore please don't think you will mess up my blog and feel free to speak your mind in the comments especially when they relate to the topic at hand.

I don't profess to have all my doctrines "down pat" and are still growing in the Lord so I appreciate your thoughts.

Magi:
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24). "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man" (1 Corinthians 2:14-15).

If maki is doing the above he is free to judge you till the cows come home otherwise he is in serious error and both under and answerable to the law within the verses you quote.

Riven:
You bought out a great point one I would like to further is that of Peter.

Maki:
I would enjoy your thoughts on Peter. Was he saved when he denied Jesus? (Gospels) Or was he saved when he gave his sermon at Pentecost? (Acts) Or was he saved when he wanted to re-institute circumcision and went back to preaching/believing that we are justified by grace and works. (Galatians 2&3) Or did the Lord leave Peter without saving grace and the prayer that Jesus prayed in John 16 never came to pass for Peter did not have the NECESSARY FRUIT of salvation which I assume you would say:

NECESSARY FRUIT: The understanding of the good news of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone and that all believers believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation.

If someone has a FRUIT different to the above fruit then they are not saved. I am assuming that you say not saved rather then not elect.

Now can you please articulate for me the exact moment in Peters life that he got saved if at all?

I want to hear from you so please do not answer questions with questions.

February 19, 2006 1:46 AM   Edit
Blogger TheDen said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

February 19, 2006 5:21 AM   Edit
Blogger TheDen said...

Hey PB,

Interesting post

February 19, 2006 6:34 AM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Hello everyone, I will talk about the apostle Peter now, seeing how some questions concerning him have come up. For starters, let me answer this question by puritan belief,

"Now can you please articulate for me the exact moment in Peters life that he got saved if at all?"

Peter was saved when he believed the gospel, which occurred at the time of his regeneration, which was at the time Jesus called him by His irresistible grace at the beginning of His ministry. As it is written,

"14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. 16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. 17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men. 18 And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him." – Mk 1:14-18

Ok, the next question by puritan belief I will answer is this one,

"Was he saved when he denied Jesus? (Gospels)"

Well, Peter was saved when he denied that he knew Jesus. Peter did not confess a false gospel; and therefore, Peter was not unregenerate when he denied that he KNEW Jesus. The passage of Peter’s denial of Christ is not a denial of the gospel; it was a denial that he knew Jesus. This is a big difference. A Christian (i.e. a regenerate person) may, through his weaknesses and the fear of man or of physical death, deny that he is a Christian, or in Peter’s case, deny that he knew Jesus. Indeed, Peter did sin, but his sin was not the sin of professing a false gospel. Professing a false gospel is contrary to the Spirit of Truth that is in a believer. A Christian will never commit the sin of professing a false gospel, as it is written,

“31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” – Jn 8:31-32

"4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." - Jn 10:4-5

“26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.” – Jn 10:26

"3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost” – 2Cor 4:3

"22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" - Col 1:22-23

“2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God...” – 1Jn 4:2-3

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.” – 2Jn 1:9


For reference, here is the account of Peter’s denial. Read the contents closely. Peter denies that he knows Jesus. Peter does not confess a false gospel. Also keep in mind that Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him (i.e. God caused Peter to do this) (Mat 26:34). God would never cause one of His regenerate elect to profess a false gospel.

"69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. 70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. 71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. 73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. 74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly." - Mat 26:69-75

Ok, the next question by puritan belief was this one,

"Or was he saved when he wanted to re-institute circumcision and went back to preaching/believing that we are justified by grace and works. (Galatians 2&3)"

My answer to this question is too long for a blog posting. However, no where in Galatians does it state that Peter desired to, "re-institute circumcision and preach justification by grace and works"!! I have discussed Galatians at length and have many things to say about it. For now, I will direct you to a good and short article on the subject by Marc Carpenter:

http://www.outsidethecamp.org/galatians.htm

Please read the article in full, and post specific questions if any arise.

Lastly, I want to say one other thing regarding what puritan belief said. He stated,

"If someone has a FRUIT different to the above fruit then they are not saved. I am assuming that you say not saved rather then not elect."

Right, I would say they are not saved (i.e. unregenerate), but that is it. A Christian NEVER judges a person to be not elect, for a Christian does not know who the elect are.

Let me just say that belief (i.e. faith), is what defines a Christian. All I am saying is that people who are Christians believe certain things. What do they believe? They believe the gospel. Why do they believe the gospel? Because of regeneration, when the Holy Spirit causes them to repent and believe the gospel. After regeneration they are a new creation, and they believe upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, as it is written,

"15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - Jn 3:15-18

No Christian is confused about the grounds of their salvation, and every Christian believes in the name of the only begotten Son of God. No Christian believes in damnable heresies, because no Christian is damned.

February 19, 2006 11:41 AM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Riven, you claimed to believe in the one glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, and you claim to believe that the Arminian gospel does not save, and you claim that no Arminians are your brothers, but then you stated that you believe that regenerate people could have misconceptions about Arminian beliefs! You also stated that a Christian (i.e. a saved person) might profess that he or she was saved because they "chose to follow Jesus". Sadly, I do consider you unregenerate. The gospel is a life and death matter that I take very seriously. Christians profess that they are saved because of God’s grace according to election. None of them say that they decided to “choose Jesus”. If one of them could say that they “chose to follow Jesus” and were still regenerate, then all Christians could say it. Do you see how that cannot be? Christians are not confused as to the ground of their salvation. Likewise, if you cannot judge ALL Arminians to be lost, then you cannot judge any Arminian to be lost. The Bible says that, “no lie is of the truth” – 1Jn 2:21. The Arminian gospel lie is not of the truth (period). The Word of the Lord concerning false gospel lies is this,

“23 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 24 Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation. 25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof. 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain. 28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken. 29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully. 30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. 31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.” – Eze 22:23-31

February 19, 2006 3:37 PM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Modern Day Magi, faith and doctrine are NOT two separate things. All Christians have faith, which is a belief in the gospel, which is doctrine. The word “doctrine” simply means a teaching. Faith is not a feeling or a sensation. Faith is a belief in gospel doctrine, which is a belief in the person and work of Jesus Christ. The person of Jesus Christ is that He is the God-man mediator, and the work of Jesus Christ is that He has saved His people from their sins by His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. All of God’s regenerate elect believe that they are saved because of the work of Christ alone. Christians know they are saved because they believe the gospel. However, if someone truly believes the gospel, then they will automatically hate everything false, “Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.” – Ps 119:104. Also, read what the apostle Paul thought of his religion and morality and zeal when he was unregenerate (Php 3:1-11). Furthermore, I would encourage you to search through the Bible for the word “doctrine” and see what it says. Here are a some Scripture references to investigate: Mk 1:22, Jn 7:16-17, Ro 6:17, Ro 16:17, 1Tim 4:6, 2Tim 4:3, 2Jn 1:9. The just shall live by faith (Ro 1:16-17).

Faith is certainly not the cause of salvation, but rather the immediate result of salvation. When one of God’s unregenerate elect are saved, they are said to be converted, as it is written, “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son” – Col 1:13. Again, Christians KNOW that they are saved because they believe in Jesus Christ, which means that they believe the gospel. Here are just some Scripture references,

John 5:24: Truly, truly, I say to you, The [one] who hears My Word, and believes the [One] who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (LITV)

John 6:40: And this is the will of the [One] sending Me, that everyone seeing the Son and believing into Him should have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (LITV)

John 6:47: Truly, truly, I say to you, The [one] believing into Me has everlasting life. (LITV)

Acts 13:39: "And everyone believing in this One is justified from all things which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses." (LITV)

Romans 9:33: "as it has been written, 'Behold I place in Zion a Stone-of-stumbling, and a Rock-of-offense, and everyone believing on Him will not be put to shame." (LITV)

1 John 5:1: "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves the [one] who has been born of Him." (LITV)


Briefly, regarding your comments about predestination. Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” – Jn 3:3. God’s elect are not born again from birth. The Bible says that God’s elect are the enemies of God (Ro 5:10), are dead in sins (Eph 2:1), and are by nature children of wrath, even as others (Eph 2:3). Eternally, all of God’s elect are called, justified, and glorified before the foundation of the world (Ro 8:29-30), but temporally, they must be born again (i.e. regenerated). All of God’s elect will be saved by His grace through faith. All of God’s elect will believe the gospel, as it is written, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" - 2Th 2:13. God’s elect are chosen unto salvation from the beginning. They are chosen to be saved through sanctification of the Spirit (i.e. regeneration), and belief of the truth (i.e. the gospel). Thus, all of God’s regenerate elect have the Holy Spirit, and believe the truth. No one is considered “saved” apart from a belief of the truth.

Ok, lastly, let me comment about what you said in regards to Matthew 7 in relation to the “fruit” not being doctrine.

Jesus said, “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” – Mat 7:20. Jesus states that by the fruits of the false prophets Christians will know they are false. How do Christians know false prophets are false? Is it by their sin? Not necessarily, because Christians still do sin. Is it by their good works? The “fruit” cannot be good works since Jesus says next, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many WONDERFUL WORKS?” – Mat 7:22. So, how do Christians identify false prophets? It is by their doctrine.

The picture of the fruit is an analogy to doctrine. Good fruit, is right gospel doctrine; whereas, bad fruit, is false gospel doctrine. Here is an example, "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." - Mat 16:6. What is this leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? What was the fruit by which the disciplines KNEW the Pharisees and the Sadducees to be false prophets? It is later explained, "...he [Jesus] bade them [His disciples] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the DOCTRINE of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. - Mat 16:12. The fruit of the Pharisees and the Sadducees was false gospel doctrine and that is how Christians knew they were false. It is written,

1John 1:9
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."

February 19, 2006 3:38 PM   Edit
Anonymous Riven said...

Maki - Thank you for your comment, i truly hope heaven consists or more people than just yourself.

There has been a few years of my life that i believed the same lines as you and infact i know of stronger verses than which you used to potentially strengthen what you say.

However you deem me unregenerate because i believe that another a Brother can have intellectual misconceptions that have been adopted, therefore i would imagine that you deem the apostle Paul unregenerate because of the letters he wrote to the church in order to bring division from the gnostic teachings of which many doctrines were being adopted. Such as :-

2 Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with him.

The Gnostic's were bringing a gospel different from what was first believed, yes it is wrong by all accounts, however they began adopt these perversions - Just as we see today!

February 19, 2006 11:46 PM   Edit
Blogger paul said...

Riven, I did not judge you to be unregenerate because you believed that Christians could have intellectual misconceptions about things. That is true. I judged you unregenerate because you said that Christians can have intellectual misconceptions about the Arminian belief (which is the same Arminian belief which you deem false and cannot save), and because you said that Christians might profess that they "chose to follow Jesus", meaning that one day they decided they would have "faith". That is false. If you mean otherwise, then please state so. I never desire to misrepresent anyone.

February 20, 2006 1:08 AM   Edit
Blogger Michael Pendleton said...

I have the audio drama of Pilgrims Progress and if I remember right Ignorance trusted in his heart. When Christian asked him why he thought he left all for God and Heaven Ignorance replied that his heart told him so. Christian qoutes Proverbs 28:26 to which Ignorance simply cannot and will not believe his heart to be evil which leads to the statement in the post.
Clearly, nothing Ignorance says can be trusted and as Mike Garner pointed out in his qoute of Christian.....Christian set's Ignorance straight.
In the end Ignorance is bound and thrown to hell right from the gates of Heaven. This all by itself shows that Ignorance and his statements are wrong.

February 20, 2006 7:14 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Maki:
Great answer with the exact moment that Peter was saved.
Confession:
All of God’s regenerate elect believe that they are saved because of the work of Christ alone.

Now you take this phrase and equate it to a confession (audible/verbal/written) and Necessary Fruit/doctrine of salvation and also you equate it to the doctrine of Christ. Anyone confessing this not to be true can be classed as lost/unsaved/unregenerate which rightly you say would be all Arminians. (Most Arminians would think they agree but a few questions will reveal otherwise.)

Now the verse which gives most strength to your argument is this one. (There are others but I think this one to be the best so far)

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." 2Jn 1:9

Now the words here are abideth in the doctrine of Christ Now for your context to be correct the verses before and after this verse you would think would be all about the confession of faith that Christ's work alone is NOT SUFFICIENT.

So lets see...

Verses After
If there come any unto you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

So far so good for it is clear that someone confessing not the doctrines of Christ we shouldn't even let enter into our house lest we become partakers of their iniquity.

Verse Before
2 Jn 1:7:
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver an anti-christ

Unfortunately here it makes it very clear with zero doubt exactly what this NEGATIVE confession is. It is by no means related to Arminians but unequivocally that the confession is confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh

Now I know your Necessary Fruit is a doctrine that is true Maki. However I am yet to find just one verse that the confession with ones mouth such as "I Chose Life" is a confession that is a definite mark that a man be unsaved. The new heart by the Power of the Holy Spirit bestowed within the Christian knows without any doubt that it was Jesus that made the difference. Not the acceptance not the choice or decision but Jesus and Him alone. However as Galatians points out Christians being sanctified daily can have intellectual misconceptions. Riven pointed out this as well with a great verse which I would also enjoy for you to address.

February 20, 2006 10:10 AM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Best regards from NY! »

February 06, 2007 11:57 PM   Edit

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