Puritan Belief

The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone.

Emmanuel Our Advocate

Instead of reading through 46 comments from Jesus Christ is In You. Nathan White has asked a great question:

QUESTION: When you say that Christ is all and in all, are you placing Him in both categories when it comes to stuff like, say intercession? That is, Christ intercedes to the Father on our behalf, yet He is actually interceding with Himself since He is essentially the Father?

ANSWER: Now a high priest represents someone who makes an offering to God through the blood of animals. However with Emmanuel He made the offering by His blood and has by definition not only become the offering but also our High priest.

And unlike before when intercession was through the Levitical priesthood it went through someone else to God. This time we are interceding directly to God and no one else because Emmanuel is our advocate.

Can you see the brilliance in this?
Emmanuel is God With Us
Advocate is One of the people.
With Jesus we are not going through some other person to get to God we are going directly to God.

May I ask you a question
Is Jesus interceding with His God on our behalf?

Add Your Comment(56)

Emmanuel Our Advocate
Posted by Correy Edmed Thursday, March 30, 2006

56 Comments:

Anonymous Michael said...

I am trying really hard to understand exactly what you believe. I gather you are against the doctrine of 'the trinity'. So is this an accurate summery of what you are trying to say.

That there is only one God, but no trinity. In other words, you do not recognize the separate persons of the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Rather you see Jesus Christ as the one God, who sometimes manifests Himself as the Father or the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Father, and Jesus is the Spirit. There is one God who reveals Himself in different ways.

Is this accurate according to scripture?

March 30, 2006 10:39 PM   Edit
Anonymous Michael said...

If the above is inaccurate as a summery of what you are trying to express could you please give a succinct explaination of your position without posing another question. It has been the use of questions as answers on this topic which I have found hard to follow.

thanks am loving reading this as it has inspired me to search the scriptures for the truth
great blog!!

March 30, 2006 10:43 PM   Edit
Blogger Nathan White said...

PB,

I will take that as a yes. You are affirming that Jesus ever lives to make intercession, yet He makes it with Himself. Something that certainly does not make sense given the wording scripture uses.

For example: Isa 53:11 says "Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied..."

So you would affirm that this is speaking of Christ seeing His own death and being satisified within Himself?

You said:"With Jesus we are not going through some other person to get to God we are going directly to God."

In light of you affirming that when the scriptures use the word 'God' it is always referring to the person of Christ Himself, could be please explain the language Paul uses in 1 Cor 11?

(ESV): "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God." -11:3

How can Christ me the head of Himself?

March 31, 2006 1:09 AM   Edit
Blogger Frank Martens said...

This is definitely not a trivial issue (so it appears). And I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying, so tell me if you agree with the following statement:

We know for sure that God shows himself in three distinct ways...

Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each has His own role while at the same time being God. One cannot operate outside the will of the other. Therefore they are one in will and power yet three distinct personalities/roles.

March 31, 2006 3:21 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Michael: The most basic Christian doctrine is: Jesus is God
You said: "...search the scriptures for the truth"
You are a true Acts 17:11 Man :)

Nathan:
"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."
This scripture is plain. The head of Christ is God and Jesus Christ is my God.

Are you saying that the head of Christ is another God other then Jesus Christ?

Frank Martens:
You say that Father,Son,Holy Spirit all have distinct rolls and are shown in distinct ways. Would you change your mind if I can show you clearly from scripture that their roles overlap and are not so distinct. This is where modalism falls apart big time.

March 31, 2006 12:02 PM   Edit
Anonymous Riven said...

PB,

It seems you have many Polytheists & catholics who read your blog.

Let me assure everyone that there are no three persons/personalities of God because:-

Mark 12:29 (kjv)
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord"

If we were in old testament times we would have argued that Gods, Name is Jealous, I am, Lily of the valley, Ywah and even Jehovah which many groups still use today.

None of these are the name of the ONE true God and we know that God,Father and Spirit are positions and not names.

So what is the "one" name of the "one" true GOD who is these positions???

If there was a bigger God whom Fathered Jesus and is also my spiritual father. Then i would want my father to tell me that i am saved - not this Jesus.

Alas there is no true God apart from Jesus who is the complete fullness of God. (A Christian basic belief)

If you have never had the revelation of who Jesus is then i suggest you seek salvation.

The scripture is brilliant how it confounds the wise and Jesus reveals this to his spiritual children.

March 31, 2006 12:54 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

riven,
if you sincerely consider that belief in the Trinity, or Tri-unity of God equates to polytheism, you are sorely mistaken.
I'm sure it is not your intent, but claiming that God is limited to only being Jesus you are effectively claiming that God cannot be outside our understanding.
Some have trouble with the trinity because that word is not mentioned in th ebible. This is a rediculous objection as the word grandfather is not mentioned in the Bible either but it is full of Grandfathers. Just read any genealogy.
The valid trouble most people have with the trinity is that all the illustrations used to explain it are largely not accurate.
H2O -> H2O can be steam, water or ice. All H2O but in different forms. This analogy is probably one of the best but still it fails as Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are not 'forms' of God they are united as the One God.
EGG -> An egg is made up of a shell, yolk and white. This analogy is also good but fails as well because any of the three parts are not an egg on their own. Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are not 'parts' of God they are united as the One God.
The problem is that one cannot even hope to correctly describe an infinite God using finite eggsamples (bad punn I know but I couldn't help it).

The crux of Christianity is that Jesus died to purchase life for those who are His children.
How can an immortal God die?
If He dies then He is not immortal.
Thus since Jesus IS God and He DID die, there must also be more to God than just Jesus who was made flesh and who died, then defeated death and was resurrected. Notice to be ressurected one must first actually die.
Also if God the Father and the Holy Spirit are simply Jesus then we are not in fact waiting for Jesus' second comming, but His third. The Holy spirit arrived at pentecost.

The doctorine of the Trinity is not polytheism, but is actually the best way we can understand/describe the infinite and tri-une nature of a God who is so much more than our experience and understanding.

March 31, 2006 2:33 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

Just to clarify if anyone is unfamiliar with the term Polytheist/Polytheism

Polytheism: The belief in more than one god. Eg, Roman / Greek / Norse / Egyptian mythologies, Hinduism etc.

Monotheism: Belief in a single God. Christianity is a monotheistic religion, the doctorine of the Trinity supports monotheistic belief as it states that the trinity is "The union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost in one Godhead"
Clearly not Polytheism by definition.

March 31, 2006 3:14 PM   Edit
Blogger Frank Martens said...

Hmm... I'm not saying I agree with modalism (if that's what my question is), I was just curious if that's what you agreed with.

ANYWAY... It'd be nice if you could go into more detail in another post about your view :)

Cheers

March 31, 2006 3:34 PM   Edit
Anonymous Riven said...

Modern Day Magi,

It has become apparent that you have not received the revelation of who God is:-

"For if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins" John 8:24

You say "The problem is that one cannot even hope to correctly describe an infinite God"

However Jesus says:-
Mark 4:11
To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables.

Clearly the fullness of God is still a mystery to you.

March 31, 2006 3:36 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Frank:
My question to you was
"Would you change your mind if I can show you clearly from scripture that their roles overlap and are not so distinct."

I said this in response to what you wrote here:

Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each has His own role while at the same time being God.

I am not a modalist and I do not hold the catholic doctrine the trinity. I am a CHRISTian

March 31, 2006 3:53 PM   Edit
Blogger Frank Martens said...

Ah I see...


So you said... " Jesus said:
..."Son, your sins are forgiven."

Mark 2:7
"Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Therefore which name was it that you cried out on for forgiveness?"


But Check this out...

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him [Christ]. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

So I'm not sure how you are saying there are not three distinct beings.

March 31, 2006 5:08 PM   Edit
Blogger Frank Martens said...

I mean He is one, but manifested three ways.

March 31, 2006 5:10 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Frank:
If God is manifest in three distinct ways or rolls as you first said:
"Each has His own role while at the same time being God."

Whose Role was it to raise Jesus From the dead? Fathers, Sons or Holy Spirits?
Whose Role was it to create the Universe?

March 31, 2006 6:56 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Magi
You say:
"we are not in fact waiting for Jesus' second coming, but His third. The Holy spirit arrived at Pentecost."

The bible says:
John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Jesus does not lie. It was Jesus that came at pentecost by his Spirit.

March 31, 2006 7:17 PM   Edit
Anonymous Modern Day Magi said...

riven,
when have I ever said Jesus was NOT God? Not once have I said that.
I was stating how it is impossible to encompass an infinte God with finite illustrations.
You comments sound very much like Maki who I believe also said once that you riven were not regenerate.
Thankfully that my name is in the Lamb's book of life and riven's book or maki's book does not matter to me at all.
I find it difficult to comprehend that you honestly believe that you completely understand the fullness and complete wonder of your creator.
If you wish to quote me in future riven, use the whole sentence as it is easy to pick one phrase and lose the context.

March 31, 2006 8:35 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

PB, you asked:
Is Jesus interceding with His God on our behalf?

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

This is one very clear example of Jesus interceding on the behalf of sinners.
Your question is phrased in such a way however, that it implies if Jesus intercedes for sinners then he in interceeding to "His God" ie. another God who is not Jesus. This is not so. While Jesus does go to the Father on our behalf they are both part of the Trinity and as such both are the one God.

March 31, 2006 8:47 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

"But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment."
- john 16:7-8
Jesus will leave and send the counselor, the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus is the Spirit and not as part of the trinity why does He use both first and third person tenses to speak about Himself?

March 31, 2006 8:53 PM   Edit
Anonymous riven said...

Modern Day Magi,

You say:-

"I find it difficult to comprehend that you honestly believe that you completely understand the fullness and complete wonder of your creator" (Full sentence quote)

The Spirit says:-

1 Corinthians 2:10
"For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God."

"Trinity Theology is in most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God"

I say they are not three persons just as i am not three persons and i am created in the image of God.

March 31, 2006 9:18 PM   Edit
Blogger Michael Pendleton said...

I believe there is a god. According to a Gallup poll an estimated 87 percent of the worlds population believe there is a god.

I believe my god cannot lie to me. To believe that god can lie means that we need not believe anything else which means believing in that god is pointless.

I believe my god has spoken to me. If god did not speak to me I would not care much about if there was a god or not.

Since my god has spoken to me and cannot lie I believe Him when He says, "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me" (Isaiah 45:5). My God is the only God.

I believe my God when He says that He is love (1 John 4:16).

Since my God says He is love and He cannot lie I believe Him when He says what love is.
"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
And if I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profiteth me nothing. Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things" (1 Corinthians 13:1-7).

I believe my God when He says, "But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 13:13). God says the greatest thing is love and God is love so not only is God the greatest thing He defines what the greatest thing is by Himself.

Since God is the greatest love and cannot lie I believe Him when He says what the greatest love is. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). What does that say? HIS LIFE. Not another's life. Not a created life. HIS LIFE! God the Father who is love says the greatest love is that A MAN lay down HIS LIFE.

I believe God when He says, "I am the LORD, I change not" (Malachi 3:6). My God who cannot change and cannot lie "became flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).

Only one person in history has ever proclaimed to lay down their life for mankind and that is Jesus. God the Son.

Jesus must be God since He said, "I lay down my life for the sheep" (John 10:15). The sheep is mankind. Jesus also said he came "to give his life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28).

Jesus said point blank, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).

Since God cannot lie and cannot change I believe God when He says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).

I believe God the Father demonstrated the greatest love as He Himself defined love by His very nature which is love and became flesh, and dwelt among us, laying down HIS LIFE for the ransom of many. Or we could say, for His friends.

If God did not lay down HIS life life then God is a liar and it would not matter what Jesus said since Jesus would be only man. Nothing God created could ever demonstrate the greatest love God defined by Himself being love. No created thing could lay down their life in place of God. God said HIS life. Jesus was not the first created thing. Jesus was not created. Jesus is God.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8). "I am the LORD, I change not" (Malachi 3:6). "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me" (Isaiah 45:5). "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).

Jesus makes a distinction between Himself and His Father and yet says they are one. God had to lay down HIS life or God would be a liar. Jesus said He came to lay down His life. The only way to account for this is say that the Father is God and the Father is Jesus. Two of the three Triune God. I will tell you why I believe in the third in a second.

"The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being" (Baptist Faith and Message).

Jesus says, "I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever" (John 14:16). "He dwells with you and shall be in you" (John14:17).

Jesus who is God and cannot lie and does not change says, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you" (John 14:18). "I am with you always" (Matthew 28:20).

Jesus says, "If a man love me my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make our abode with him" (John 14:23). It's not only Jesus who comes. It's the Father too. It would have to be this way since Jesus and the Father are one. Notice the condition though? "If a man love me". There is evidence of that love that I removed from the verse above since that is a whole different topic all together. I suggest you get in your bible and check it out, John 14:23.

God cannot lie and does not change. He Himself became man. Jesus is that man. Jesus says He will come to us, that He is always with us, and that the Father comes with Him.

Jesus says, "I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me" ( John 15:26). Jesus will send the Spirit. The Spirit comes from the Father. Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus says HE will come to us. When the Holy Spirit comes, the Son comes. When the Son comes, the Father comes. The Father is the Son who is the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God. The third part of the Triune God.

I believe "The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being" (Baptist Faith and Message).

I have done my best to explain how I think or deal with the reality of a Truine God. I have done my best to explain why I believe in a Truine God.

March 31, 2006 9:26 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Michael:
I loved all the verses you used very powerful. I found this very interesting.
"The only way to account for this is say that the Father is God and the Father is Jesus."

March 31, 2006 9:38 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

"I say they are not three persons just as i am not three persons and i am created in the image of God."

An image of a bucket cannot hold water, an image of a horse cannot gallop, an image of a river cannot flow, an image of a bird cannot fly...
Are you trying to suggest riven that since you have been created in the image of God, as indeed you have, that God therfore is limited in the same ways you are?

God created the heavens and the Earth, could you have done this?

God numbers the stars and calls each by name, can you do this?

God never changes, are you the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, or in a thousand tomorrows?

God can forgive sin and offer salvation, can you riven?

You correctly said that you are an image of God but then went on to conclude that since you are not triune in nature then neither is God. How can it follow that God could have done any of the above mentioned things if you cannot?

Are you not trying to fit God into your own image riven?

March 31, 2006 9:50 PM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

michael - thanks, that was an excellent explanation

March 31, 2006 11:48 PM   Edit
Anonymous riven said...

Modern Day Magi,
I suggested none of what you deem me to believe. There is no need for me to even reason with your foolish statements.

However as you do not believe we can know the depths and fullness of God, then it would be unwise for anyone to seek your explanation of God.

A person must have the revelation of who Jesus is(John 8:24)and it is then that you will know him, otherwise it is only worldly wisdom.

The word of God confounded many Magi's.

April 01, 2006 12:30 AM   Edit
Anonymous mrichthus said...

I hope these haven't been previously addressed in the (almost 100) posts preceding...

I'm curious how some would explain Genesis 1
"Let US make man in OUR image". I'm not emphasizing to prove a point, just to point out what I'm trying to get answered.

NAME
Matt. 28:19 "baptizing in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" this passage uses definite articles before each personal noun, which indicates (grammatically) distinct persons. The singular "name" need not imply a single person, if you claim otherwise then passages like Gen. 11:4, 48:6, and 48:16 are problematic. "Name" need not be personal name, for it may just be a title: Isa. 9:6; Matt. 1:23. The passage does not specify that certain words/names are to be spoken during baptism; nor does the Bible ever record someone saying, "I baptize you in the name of...."

JEHOVAH
If I understand PB correctly you are stating that God's name is Jesus. The Father's name is Jesus, the son's name is Jesus, the Spirt (of Jesus)'s name is Jesus. (I'm still working on the trinity vs. triune distinction). You've quoted many NT scriptures to assert this claim. I wonder about the OT though, especially when God stresses that His Name is Jehovah. So, does God have two names, is he renamed, or how does the name 'Jehovah' fit in?

WITNESSES
Also, John 5:31-32: "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid." AND 8:16-18 "But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." Jesus is appealing to an OT standard that two witnesses must testify to validate truth. If Jesus and the Father are not distinct, then the truth of all of Jesus' claims are in jeopardy.

I want to be concise, so I'll keep it there for the moment.

April 01, 2006 1:27 AM   Edit
Blogger Nathan White said...

You have not addressed the texts I have given. 1 Cor 11:3 is among many that make a clear distinction between the Father and the Son. You, however, are claiming that the Son is the Father -to which these verses make no sense.

PB Said: "Are you saying that the head of Christ is another God other then Jesus Christ?"

Does not the text affirm that Christ is under another Being (notice, I did not say another God)? If not, please elaborate what 'head' means.

SDG

April 01, 2006 5:44 AM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

riven,
Truly you must be an amazing man of God to have more spiritual insight than Paul.
"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
- 1 Corinthians 13:12

Rather Paul's words became scripture while riven's words are naught but wind.

April 01, 2006 7:11 AM   Edit
Blogger T.B. Vick said...

PB,

Having read your posts, and most of the comments, I have several questions -

Do you believe that the unity of God is ultra-simplex? In other words, do you think God is qualitatively characterized in his essence by one nature and one person?

Granted, this essence may be designated interchageably as Father, Son, Holy Spirit, however they are just different names for but identical with the unified, simplex God. The three names are the three modes by which God reveals himself?

April 01, 2006 8:36 AM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

This debate has ceased to be fruitful. Although I dissagree with you here PB much of what you write on other topics is of great value and good insight, I do enjoy your posts PB.
I'll clarify what I believe to be truth about this topic and then I will be done here.

1. "Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other."
- Deuteronomy 4:39

2. "There is no one like you, O LORD, and there is no God but you..."
- 1 Chronicles 17:20

3. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
- John 1:1

4. "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
- John 1:14

5. "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
- John 14:26

6. "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
- 1 Corinthians 13:12

7. The doctorine of the Trinity is not polytheist in nature. The doctorine of the Trinity teaches that there is One God, Father, Son (Jesus) and Spirit. They are separate yet inseprable, three and yet one.

8. The only trouble with the Trinity doctorine is that it attempts to describe an infinite God using finite teminology.

April 01, 2006 10:13 AM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

Why didn't someone just say early on "read the first few verses of John"? Seems to me that clears it all up.

April 01, 2006 11:16 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Nathan:
You have not addressed the texts I have given. 1 Cor 11:3 is among many that make a clear distinction between the Father and the Son.

Considering the words Father and Son are not mentioned in 1 Cor 11:3 perhaps I have answered your question better then you think. I will again answer your question by backing up scripture with scripture.

Col 2:9 "The fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Jesus Christ"

1 Cor 11:3 "...and the head of Christ is God."

Can you see which person the Godhead dwells in or is it still a mystery to you?

1 Cor 11:3 Is saying that Christ is not just a man, (Head of every man is Christ) He is the God of heaven. This verse is a key verse for the deity of Jesus (Head of Christ is God) trying to use it to show there are other people to God (catholic trinity) is an error.

Nathan I must ask you that now that we no longer recognise Christ according to the flesh how is it that you recognise Him?

April 01, 2006 1:22 PM   Edit
Anonymous riven said...

Modern Day Magi,

We are not talking about my words we are talking about the Word of God and it says:-

1 Corinthians 2:10
"For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God."

What the Lord reveiled to Paul is different from what he reveiled to His prophets of the Old testament, However the revelation of who Jesus is for ALL whom are born again with His spirit.

As for Egg or H2O theology:-

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

April 01, 2006 1:47 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

T.B Vicks
I enjoyed these questions and love how the scripture reveals the answer.

In other words, do you think God is qualitatively characterized in his essence by one nature and one person?

Firstly God is not qualitatively characterized in his essence BUT is Spirit and as such is revealed by the Spirit of the Living God Jesus Christ.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God has been declared by the Son who is in the bosom of the Father. His nature and personaility is that of God for he has made him known.


Granted, this essence may be designated interchageably as Father, Son, Holy Spirit, however they are just different names for but identical with the unified, simplex God. The three names are the three modes by which God reveals himself?

Isaiah 9:6 ...unto us a son is given... and his name shall be Wonderful, Councillor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, Prince of peace.

The NAME not NAMES is Jesus Christ as HE is magnified in all 3 positions.

T.B Vicks when Jesus died for 3 days who was in heaven?

P.S I am not a modalist.

April 01, 2006 1:48 PM   Edit
Blogger John Kettner said...

God has provided us a way to dial him up direct through Christ Jesus, the Lord and Saviour of the World!

April 01, 2006 1:52 PM   Edit
Anonymous riven said...

John Kettner, it seems that you have a belief based on that of the Jehovah's Witness.

April 01, 2006 2:49 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

JOHN:
Who are we dialing up when we go through Jesus Christ? What is the name of the God that we are communicating with?

ELESSI:

What has the first few verses of John revealed to you?

MRICHTHUS
:
Your questions are well thought out and you have compared with the scriptures the things that have been said.

Relating to Baptism:

The Son commanded the disciples to Baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (Matt 28:19)

But by revelation in every instance of Scripture they baptised Saints INTO the name of JESUS CHRIST (Acts 2:38,Acts 8:12,Acts 8:16,Acts 19:4,Acts 19:5,Rom 6:3)

Relating to JEHOVAH
This word simply is a derivative of YHWH can you pronounce this? Answer impossible. That is why man uses JEHOVAH and normal translations (NASB, NKJV,NIV, KJV(except a few instance)) simply translate as Lord. The Lord of the old testament is most certainly JESUS CHRIST. He is the same Yesterday today and forever :)

Relating to WITNESSES
When God made a promise to Abraham and had to promise that it would come true upon whom did he swear? (Hebrews 6:13). Now Jesus in the flesh was a man. He was obedient even to the point of death even death on a cross. (Phillipians 2 I think) As the man he had things hidden from him (End of Matt something like the Son doesn't know the hour..) He had to learn, He was tempted etc etc. He is one of the people (advocate,intercessor). Now the man Jesus never wanted other mans testimony/witness (verses back this up) His witness was none other then the Spirit of God within him, His Spirit.

April 01, 2006 5:16 PM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

PB: Simply that Jesus is God and was there in the beginning and it was God that became the man called Jesus. A very simple thing but something I never learnt before now.

April 01, 2006 8:24 PM   Edit
Blogger T.B. Vick said...

PB,
You state:
"The NAME not NAMES is Jesus Christ as HE is magnified in all 3 positions."

That pretty much answers my question.

April 02, 2006 1:50 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

elessi
"Simply that Jesus is God and was there in the beginning and it was God that became the man called Jesus."
Elessi this is fantastic that you would say this with no BUTS. The trinity takes away from Jesus and makes God a mystery. You are always still wondering just which one is God? Then they say well they all are. But a child can see that there are 3 Gods (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit) But then they say well these 3 are one it is a mystery. But they have already said they are distinct from each other? (>Father is not the Son who is not the Holy Spirit)

THE MYSTERY IS REVEALED (Provided links for verses for you :)
Unless we embrace Jesus as Lord and God and HIM ALONE as the first commandment tells us to (Mark 12:29) then God will always be a mystery. For when we come to know Jesus we know the Father (John 14:7) It never asks us to examine if the Father is in us but JESUS (2 Corinthians 13:5) (Christ is in you the hope of glory :))(Colossians 1:27)

TB VICKS
I asked you this question:
T.B Vicks when Jesus died for 3 days who was in heaven?
Rather then just leave this question unanswered for the readers. The answer which answered your questions also answers my question:
The NAME not NAMES is Jesus Christ as HE is magnified in all 3 positions

For it was Jesus by His Spirit whom the thief was with in heaven during the time his body was in the grave. Jesus is magnified in heaven.(Luke 23:43)

This is the mystery that the incarnate God is in fact the only true God of heaven --> Jesus Christ. (The Father/Spirit in Christ is reconciling the world unto HIMSELF (Jesus))

April 02, 2006 9:11 AM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Trinity

Scripture attests that “the mystery of godliness is great” (1 Timothy 3:16)—hence I am not presuming to resolve everything with regard to the triune Godhead. May the Lord give us insight into these things.

With regard to the Trinity, I think everyone (on this blog) is agreed that Scripture describes much commonality and overlap with regard to activity and characteristics of “the Father,” “the Son,” and “the Spirit.”

For instance, the Father, the Son and the Spirit all sanctify (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Hebrews 2:11, 1 Peter 1:2), each is eternal (Psalm 90:2, Micah 5:1-2, Hebrews 9:14), each is called God (Philippians 1:2, Colossians 2:9, Acts 5:3-4), and many other examples, including omniscience and omnipresence, and speaking, creating, and loving. And the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, so it should not surprise us that Scripture refers to the Spirit within (John 14:17), Christ within (Colossians 1:27), and God within (2 Corinthians 6:16). It should not surprise us that Jesus refers to himself as the “I AM” (John 8:58) or that the “Lord is the Spirit” (2 Corinthians 3:17) or that God sends his Spirit and they are created (Psalm 104:30), or that God sends his Spirit to Mary (Luke 1:35), and the Son of God is born in the flesh. The pattern seen in Scripture, although I do not have space to develop this, is that the Son and the Spirit eternally act on behalf of (and to glorify) the Father (e.g., Jesus glorifies the Father’s name, Jesus is the lamb slain before the creation of the world (Revelation 13:8), the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will—Romans 8:27).

This is to be entirely expected, if as Scripture teaches: “Here O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Nonetheless, the Hebrew word translated “one” in this verse often refers to plurality in unity, such as two people becoming one flesh (Genesis 2:24), the builders of Babel powerfully being one people (Genesis 11:6), the people of Israel answering with one voice (Exodus 24:3), and many other examples. There is a different Hebrew word for “unique,” or “one and only,” but this is not used in Deuteronomy 6:4 to describe God.

Plurality within unity, then is also consistent with Scripture’s describing distinctions within the Godhead. For instance, during Jesus’ baptism, the Father speaks while the Spirit comes down in bodily form like a dove while Jesus is coming out of the water (Luke 3:21-22). During Stephen’s stoning, he is filled with the Spirit and sees Jesus standing beside God the Father in heaven (Acts 7:55).

That Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not synonymous should be clear insofar as: “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). That Jesus and the Father are not identical should be clear from the fact that Jesus calls upon the Father as his second witness (John 8:16-18). Moreover, Jesus prays to his Father, is often described as being in heaven alongside the Father, does not know the day and hour of his return whereas his Father does, and is the appointed mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5). That God the Father and the Spirit are not identical should be clear from the fact that the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will (Romans 8:27), and that “God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, ‘Abba, Father’” (Galatians 4:6).

This view of the Trinity as ontological unity but economic trinity is fully consistent with the Sovereign God who says, “Let us make man in our image” (Genesis 1:26, italics mine) or who says regarding the builders of Babel, “Come, let us go down and confuse their language” (Genesis 11:7). This is consistent with the God who consistently throughout the Hebrew bible is called “Elohim,” (God in plurality) although he acts with singular verbs (in contrast, when the false gods are called elohim, they almost exclusively govern plural verbs).

This is consistent with the Godhead who is self-reliant and does not depend on creation for anything, who can act as he sees fit, always in the presence of witnesses, including the two other persons of the Trinity (sometimes God calls heaven and earth as two witnesses, as in Deuteronomy 30:19. But clearly this would not have been an option in eternity-past before God created the heavens and the earth). Jesus demonstrates this for us in John 8:16-18: “But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me” (John 8:16-18).

And it is from those Scriptures (and many others) that is derived the concept of “one God, three persons”—the orthodox view of the Trinity.

April 02, 2006 11:29 AM   Edit
Blogger Nathan White said...

PB Said: This verse is a key verse for the deity of Jesus (Head of Christ is God) trying to use it to show there are other people to God (catholic trinity) is an error.

When did I ever say this wasnt a key verse for the deity of Christ? Please stop putting words in my mouth just because your error cannot even begin to make sense out of this text.

If what you are saying is true, and Christ is the same as God (the Father I would affirm), then you nullify the meaning of this verse. Paul's point is that man is over woman just like God is over Christ. If God (I would affirm the Father) is the SAME being as Christ, as you would say, then interpretation of the text also affirms that man must be the SAME as Woman, in essance and in authority. So if Christ is not under the authority of the Father, then women is not under the authority of man.

April 02, 2006 11:42 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Nathan:
When did I ever say this wasn't a key verse for the deity of Christ?

Nathan you are right you haven't said this that is why I was affirming it when I said:
This verse is a key verse for the deity of Jesus

If you also know that this is what the verse is talking about that Jesus is not merely a man he is the God of heaven hence his head is God and the fullness of the God Head is in him I am glad.

I would love to get your insight on this question:
I must ask you that now that we no longer recognise Christ according to the flesh how is it that you recognise Him?

April 02, 2006 12:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Anonymous:
Did you get this out of text book? If not it was very scholarly.

When God made you in his image how many people did he make you?

April 02, 2006 12:46 PM   Edit
Anonymous katie said...

PB when you take a photo of yourself, creating an image.
How many dimensions is it?
Can it feel, see, touch, laugh, breathe?

God created us in His image, He did not create more gods.

April 02, 2006 12:52 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Katie you said:
"God created us in His image, He did not create more gods."

Psalm 82:6
I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Perhaps you could reconsider your photo analogy.

There is much splendor in the verse "... created in Gods image" that you may have missed.

I hope this helps show you the mystery:
God is flesh and we are flesh, He has the Spirit of God and we have this same Spirit.

Then what is they key difference between Jesus and us?
John 14:9
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

April 02, 2006 1:16 PM   Edit
Blogger jazzycat said...

I hope this helps from the WCF....
Chapter 2 section 3:
3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, not proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

April 02, 2006 2:00 PM   Edit
Anonymous katie said...

thank you anonymous.
I have never heard the doctorine of the trinity so eloquently, and convincingly put. Your thourough and scriptural examination of it dispells any objections I may have had.

April 02, 2006 2:05 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

jazzycat:
I find it interesting that in this creed the name Jesus was never mentioned.

Who is your Spiritual Father?

April 02, 2006 2:05 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Katie:
If Mr Anonymous so eloquently revealed to you the God head. Then can you tell me what the name of your Spiritual Father is?

April 02, 2006 2:08 PM   Edit
Blogger mxu said...

PB -

Even if God made us in his image and we say we are made as one person or some people might say two (and inner or outter being), you still need to demonstrate that God's image includes being one person.

I would put forth that the image of God placed upon man is the spirit, the mind, the soul (all are the same) which gives us rational thought and moral ability. Without it we would be like animals.

Because we are image bearers, we can think.

Are you able to argue that the "image" includes the number of persons in the Godhead?

April 02, 2006 2:13 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

MXU
Are you able to argue that the "image" includes the number of persons in the Godhead?

There is only one person who is the Almighty God.

Have a look at the most recent post on Show us the Father.

April 02, 2006 2:26 PM   Edit
Blogger Carl said...

PB: "When God made you in his image how many people did he make you? "

Katie: "God created us in His image, He did not create more gods."

PB: " Psalm 82:6
I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Perhaps you could reconsider your photo analogy.

There is much splendor in the verse "... created in Gods image" that you may have missed.

I hope this helps show you the mystery:
God is flesh and we are flesh, He has the Spirit of God and we have this same Spirit.

Then what is they key difference between Jesus and us?"

I hope I am misreading you PB but it seems you are claiming to be a god.

This is rediculous.
Also the verse you used is out of context. Both Psalm 82:6 and later in john 10:34-39 when Jesus quotes the psalm, the word 'gods' is in direct reference to leaders NOT believers.

The difference Between Jesus and us? the major one is He is God but there are many others as well.

April 02, 2006 2:49 PM   Edit
Anonymous riven said...

Carl,

The reference in John was to the Jews and the reference in psalms was to the Jewish leaders.

So do you actually believe that all Jews and Jewish leaders are "gods" and it is ONLY they who are the children of the most high?

I mean "Jew" in physical terms and not spiritual.

April 02, 2006 4:11 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Puritan Belief said:

Anonymous: Did you get this out of a textbook? If not, it was very scholarly.

By the grace of God, the post on the Trinity did not come from a textbook. May the Lord be glorified and magnified through it.

Puritan Belief asks: “When God made you in his image, how many people did he make you?”

Scripture does not speak in terms of God’s specifically making me in his image (at least not physically—in terms of character, one can consider Romans 8:29: “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers,” and Colossians 3:9-10: “Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator). On the contrary, Genesis 1:26-27 describes Adam (and Eve, though woman is also described as the “glory of man” in 1 Corinthians 11:7) being made in the image of God, after which Adam (as covenant head) and Eve were to “be fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1:28; the distinction is between so-called “miraculous providence” of Creation and “regular providence” of procreation, although metaphysically everything in Creation is miracle—praise the Lord that “in him all things hold together”—Colossians 1:17), resulting in the human race. This human race, including the number of people, would unfold according to God’s plan: “From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live” (Acts 17:26). In light of the Sovereignty of God, and since Jesus was slain before the creation of the world (1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8), I think Scripture leads us to conclude that God’s plan regarding people was necessarily prelapsarian, but this is perhaps too far afield for our present concern.

Nonetheless, Scripture does speak of God’s knitting one together in one’s mother’s womb—may all praise and glory be to God for whatever my humble life may contribute to the kingdom of God, according to his good pleasure.

It seems as though everyone, or nearly everyone, who has commented on the topic of the Trinity agrees with the ontological unity of God. The dispute seems to be over the so-called “Economic Trinity,” or distinctions that seem rather explicit in Scripture.

I am curious how your hermeneutic resolves verses that seem to indicate a distinction within the persons of the Godhead. To cite the paragraph from the earlier post on the Trinity,

“Plurality within unity, then is also consistent with Scripture’s describing distinctions within the Godhead. For instance, during Jesus’ baptism, the Father speaks while the Spirit comes down in bodily form like a dove while Jesus is coming out of the water (Luke 3:21-22). During Stephen’s stoning, he is filled with the Spirit and sees Jesus standing beside God the Father in heaven (Acts 7:55).

That Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not synonymous should be clear insofar as: “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). That Jesus and the Father are not identical should be clear from the fact that Jesus calls upon the Father as his second witness (John 8:16-18). Moreover, Jesus prays to his Father, is often described as being in heaven alongside the Father, does not know the day and hour of his return whereas his Father does, and is the appointed mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5). That God the Father and the Spirit are not identical should be clear from the fact that the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will (Romans 8:27), and that “God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, ‘Abba, Father’” (Galatians 4:6).”

Your understanding of the Godhead seems to indicate an identification of Father and Son and Spirit, so Father and Son and Spirit are synonymous and not distinct persons.

I am curious how the above verses (Luke 3:21-22, Acts 7:55, Mathew 12:32, John 8:16-18, 1 Timothy 2:5, Romans 8:27, and Galatians 4:6) harmonize with your hermeneutic.

April 02, 2006 5:06 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

You have asked quite a few questions and bought up quite a few points can you summarise in a sentence what you would like answered and we will take it from there. Also if you can identify yourself with a name that would be great. Best regards :)

April 02, 2006 5:15 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your understanding of the Godhead seems to indicate an identification of Father and Son and Spirit, so Father and Son and Spirit are synonymous and not distinct persons.

I am curious how the below verses (Luke 3:21-22, Acts 7:55, Mathew 12:32, John 8:16-18, 1 Timothy 2:5, Romans 8:27, and Galatians 4:6) harmonize with your hermeneutic:

1. In Matthew 12:32, Jesus says, “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matthew 12:32).

This verse seems to describe a distinction between the Son and the Spirit, for one can forgivably blaspheme one but not the other.
2. In Acts 7:55-56, during the stoning of Stephen, we read, “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
In this passage, the Holy Spirit seems to be in Stephen, while God the Father is in heaven with Jesus standing at his right hand. Again, Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9, 1 Peter 1:11), so Scripture is consistent when it asserts that Christ is within (Colossians 1:27).
3. In John 8:16-18, Jesus says, “But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
Jesus reckons himself as one witness and his Father as the second (in accordance with Deuteronomy 19:15: “A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses”). This seems to demonstrate that the Father and the Son are two distinct persons.
4. Regarding his Second Coming, Jesus says, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Mark 13:32).

This seems to indicate a distinction between what Jesus knows and what the Father knows, indicating that they are not the same person.

5. In Luke 3:21-22, we read, “When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: ‘You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.’”

This account of Jesus’ baptism also seems to describe a distinction within persons of the Godhead—Jesus is in the water while the Spirit comes down from heaven, while the Father to his Son from heaven.

6. In Galatians 4:6, we read, “God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, ‘Abba, Father’” (Galatians 4:6).

It seems to me rather unusual to maintain that the Spirit in our hearts = the Father in heaven.


May the Lord be glorified “whether we eat drink, or whatever we do” (1 Corinthians 10:31).

April 03, 2006 6:39 AM   Edit

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