Show us the Father?
"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." Genesis 1:27I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Psalm 82:6
Jesus is the Son of God we are the sons of God, He is flesh and we are flesh, He has the Spirit of God and we have this same Spirit THEN....
If We are gods then who is Jesus ?
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" John 14:9
JESUS AFFIRMS THIS AGAIN WHEN HE SAID:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelations 1:8
Add Your Comment(54)
Show us the Father?Posted by Correy Sunday, April 02, 2006
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
54 Comments:
For the basics on who Jesus Christ is, here is a link to Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 8:
http://www.pcanet.org/general/cof_chapvi-x.htm#chapviii
jazzycat: Jesus said who he is in the bible: THE ALMIGHTY
PB -
I looked up the verses in a commentary and the general consensus is that God is not saying that he made more gods (as there is only one God, that we agree upon), rather he is talking to the leaders of Israel, saying that they act as gods in the sense that they are judging Israel.
But we don't need to check a commentary to know this, the context of the Psalm shows this pretty clearly, as Psalm 82:1-2 reads:
1God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2"How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked?
Clearly we are not gods at all, as we do not have judging abilities over the country of Israel. An analagous position in the New Testament might be the elders of today's local church. You seem to be taking the verse out of context.
Jesus is the Son of God, but the Son of God in the sense of being the Christ, as we see in Matthew 26:
63But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."
But the elect are not sons of God in the same sense. They are adopted into the royal household. Galatians 4:4-5
4But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Simply reading your John 14 reference in context we cannot help but come away with a conclusion that Jesus and the Father are different people.
6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
Verse 7 is especially relevant: "From now on you do know him and have seen him." How do they do this? Because they come through Jesus. Not because Jesus is the Father, but through Jesus they have access to the Father.
You have to do a lot of gymnastics in John 14 to get away from the conclusion that Jesus is different from the Father.
"Believe in God; believe also in me."
"No one comes to the Father except through me."
"I am in the Father and the Father is in me?"
"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."
"I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper,"
"If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. "
"If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. "
If you have seen me you have seen the Father
He is the Father He is God, There is no more proof needed because when they were seeing Jesus they were always seeing the Father they were just blinded to this.
They didn't have enough faith, They were all looking for this God or Father but He never appeared to them because they had little faith in his words.
When people have faith they don't have to see something miraculous or really big you just trust that what he says is true.
My God is Jesus and I trust in Him and I have never seen all the miraculous miracles that he performed in the old testament. I believe in his word when he says that "He who has seen me has seen the Father." And Yes I believe that Jesus is my Father.
MXU
As is my custom, I would like to let Jesus answer you:
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are Gods? If he called them gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
I was referencing this verse to say my next statement.
Jesus is the Son of God we are the Sons of God... just as Jesus did.
Also there is a promise:
Romans 9:26
and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
"An analagous position in the New Testament might be the elders of today's local church. You seem to be taking the verse out of context."
In response to this:
What context is there I have simply quoted verses? You came very close with the elders analogy. There is of course a great verse to use it in unison with:
1 Corinthians 6:2
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?"
PB -
What exactly are you trying to prove with the statement that we are Sons of God? I don't disagree with it (We might disagree in the scope, you seem to be applying it universally, but I think sons of God only applies to the elect. I can prove this if you like), I merely disagree with an interpretation that the fact that we are Sons of God gives us any claim on diety in the sense that Jesus has. Namely, we do not possess any attributes of God, we are not omniscent, we are not omnipresent, we are not perfect, we are not just, we are not good, we are not...etc etc
What being Sons of God for us does is grant us an inheritance in the kingdom of God. Though I did not attempt to prove that, I think we do agree upon it.
Even if we do conceed the point that we ourselves are created in God's image (and this point is debatable), that does not mean that since we are one person God is one person, as Modern Day Magi has already pointed out, saying:
[quote]
An image of a bucket cannot hold water, an image of a horse cannot gallop, an image of a river cannot flow, an image of a bird cannot fly...
Are you trying to suggest riven that since you have been created in the image of God, as indeed you have, that God therfore is limited in the same ways you are?
God created the heavens and the Earth, could you have done this?
God numbers the stars and calls each by name, can you do this?
God never changes, are you the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, or in a thousand tomorrows?
God can forgive sin and offer salvation, can you riven?
You correctly said that you are an image of God but then went on to conclude that since you are not triune in nature then neither is God. How can it follow that God could have done any of the above mentioned things if you cannot?
[/quote]
Quoting verses only gets you so far, you do have to back it up with sound exegesis in order for you to demonstrate that the verses support the interpretation you want for them.
What the comment threads on your last three posts have asked for is that interpretation, that exegesis that proves conclusively that "ok, The Bible shows that Jesus Christ is the Father, there is no distinction in Scripture between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are each the same person and the same essence." As part of providing this, you will have to deal with all the verses that have been cited that pose problems for your understanding.
Why does Jesus say "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." if what we are to understand is "No one comes to me except through me." ?
Why does Jesus say "Believe in God; believe also in me." if believing in God is the exact same thing as "believe in Jesus."?
Why does Jesus say "I am in the Father and the Father is in me?" if Jesus what Jesus really meant was "I am the Father"?
We can multiply these questions of course, and obviously it does not do to force you to answer all of them, but you do have to answer them in a general sense:
Why does Jesus talk as if the Father was a seperate person?
Why does Jesus refer to the Father as greater than himself?
Why does Jesus speak in the plural in saying "I and my father... we will"?
Quoting verses without exegesis is only a small step above not quoting verses at all, for we can make Scripture say almost anything we want by quoting out of context.
We can be justified by faith and works and not by faith alone for example.
But both you and I reject that, and we reject that because we can provide a solid exegesis of that verse along with an exegesis other verses that support the view that we are justified before God by faith alone. Simply throwing another verse at it would only seem to show that there are areas in the Bible that need to be explained, but it doesn't show one side or another right.
Asking questions, while it can show where other views have holes, are not answers as well. If you are going to defend your views as orthodox and biblical, then you need to not only ask questions (a negative presentation) but make a positive one.
PB, I am glad for these series of posts. They have challenged how I understand the Trinity and forced me to examine if my own beliefs are Scriptural or not. But I do hope something more fruitful would come of it, and that would be that you would be led to a knowledge of the truth on this matter. Whatever the case is though, I do know and affirm that it is God who is sovereign over all things, even this discussion, and I pray that it would be glorifying to Him.
MXU,
well considered, explained and writen.
Mr. P.B.
The Apostle John tells us that Jesus is God…. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning (John 1:1-2)." Jesus also confirmed that he was God when asked by the high priest, “Are you the Christ?”…..“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:62).
The reason he came to earth was to save his people from their sins….. "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21)." To make atonement and redeem a people he had to be fully God, so as to give the atonement infinite value, and fully man to perfectly satisfy the requirements of God’s law, thus becoming an acceptable substitute for sinners…. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21)."
Are you making a case for an un-orthodox view of the trinity? The United Penecostals belive in a oneness modulism. Is that what this is about?
Jazzycat
You seem to be asserting that Jesus is the Father. If this is the case,
when Jesus was on earth teaching his disciples to pray, “Our Father in Heaven,” (Matthew 6:9), was his Father in heaven?
Anonymous
Yes the Father was in heaven as He was everywhere at once. This is the real revelation that most people miss: The Father was In Christ reconciling the world unto Himself namely (JESUS)
Prayer:
Does God pray to Himself? Answer: NO, Then if Jesus is God then why was He praying? Answer: As the perfect man who made Himself a little lower then the angels, He prayed. The High priestly prayer (John 17) shows us what is going on in Gods heart towards those He will manifest Himself to. As a man there were things He did not know, We no longer recognise Christ acording to the flesh or as a Man, We recognise Jesus as the God of heaven, we know him by the Spirit, Chists SPIRIT, our friend, our brother who is in us. Jesus Christ our hope of glory. This really gives me great joy to proclaim this truth.
JazzyCat:
I believe that Jesus reveals the Father. By knowing Jesus you know the Father. These verses in this post are pointing out that Jesus is not Just a Son of God but He is the Almighty God of Heaven. All your verses are great because they show How God became flesh (Emmanuael) to clense us from all unrighteousness.
Cristina:
Faith which trusts and believes Jesus Word is well pleasing to your Heavenly Father.
MXU
"we are Sons of God gives us any claim on diety in the sense that Jesus has"
Notice the little g for gods. I thought it was well known that this means NO diety? You are right to say we don't have diety. But to call those whom the word of God comes "Ye are gods" makes me think that the photo analogy is very carnal and blasphemous. It takes all the glory out of John 14:9. Yes the sons of god are the elect. They all have the same Father.
Jesus says: "If God were your Father you would love ME" When we love Jesus we love the Father.
THE POINT
I would be glad for you to see the main point of these verses. Exactly WHO they are pointing to. When Jesus was talking about the Father he was speaking in figurative language as I have shown. His full glory as the God of Heaven was veiled in Flesh. When the Father and the Son make their abode in you the revelation of who is Jesus is made known in your heart by which you cry Abba Father. May I ask you to remember back to your first love.
TO EVERYONE:
It is easy to explain away the truth of these verses, with many words and replace it with the mysterious trinity. The Spirit of truth reveals this to infants
Every single verse in scripture points towards JESUS being the ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD OF HEAVEN. JW's, Mormons Muslims etc etc all deny and hate this truth, Calvinism etc really is no revelation compared to lifting up the Son of Man to be God Almighty. This is preaching Jesus.
If you are a Christian and you can remember back to when you were first born again may you remember this truth in your heart, May we renew again our first love: JESUS
"Yes the Father was in heaven as He was everywhere at once."
So when Jesus was bound to the Flesh, that is when he bacame a man and walked the Earth diring His minitry in roughly 0-33 AD was He everywhere at once or was he flesh and only in one place at a time?
It appears that there have been only 2 people confused about the mystery of the Trinity during this whole debate. One of them it appears is you PB. To suggest that we have forgotten our First Love, and effectively turned from Jesus in Believing He is one element of the Triune God you are mistaken. No one here, yourself included PB, has once said Jesus is not God.
You may have issue, and righfully so, with some of the analogies used during this discussion. Of course taking a photo is not the same as God creating Mankind, of course God is not like H2O, etc. The trouble here though is not that any of the analogies are blasphemous, but rather they are trying to explain God, who is Almighty and Infinite, with finite examples. This could be likened to trying to explain what an aircraft is like but only being able to talk about apples. I'm sure someone could come up with a passable analogy but it could not hope to fully capture the briliance of design and technology which a aircraft is.
If again 1 Corinthians 2:10 is quoted we must first look at it in more detali.
"...but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him?"
(verse 11 in italics.)
What is the 'IT' which is referred to in this passage.
Exactly what is revealed, is found in the preceeding verse
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"
"what God has prepared for those who love him" is a direct reference to the secret of salvation, Jesus died for the atonement of our sins. This is what God has prepared for those that love Him. This is what is revealed by the Spirit to believers.
A new paragraph begins with "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God." providing evidence that the Spirit can in fact reveal truths of God as it is His Spirit and not another. This is not suggesting that the Spirit reveals all things, but that it searches all things, even the depths of God.
This discussion has been an interesting and enjoyable one to read. My comments to everyone, regardless of view on this topic is to act like the Bereans from Acts 17:11 "for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what [has been] said was true."
MDM
Ps.
I changed Paul's name to 'has been' to make this verse applicable to every situation, not to change the essence of the scripture.
Magi or Wise Man
No one here, yourself included PB, has once said Jesus is not God.
It is your gods other then Jesus that are my concern.
1. If you have NO other gods then Jesus please tell me so with NO BUTS.
2. If you truly have a revelation of the Father, Proclaim me his Name?
Proverbs 10:19
When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.
Modern Day Magi,
What you say is true that PB & I have only have limited support in relation to who Jesus is.
You have the entire Catholic church and many other apostate groups who will rush to support this trinitarian gospel.
Matthew 7:13
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Sadly the church does not hold you as a heretic and will not demand your blood as they did with Jesus.
The good news is that you can know the mystery of God and know the father. Just ask Jesus:-
John 14
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 "Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip?"
Allow me to follow your custom PB.
1. "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one"
- 1 John 5:7 - KJV
2. "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."
- Psalm 83:18 (KJV)
"Then I called on the name of the LORD : "O LORD, save me!""
- Psalm 116:4
"revere this glorious and awesome name — the LORD your God -"
- Deuteronomy 28:58
"Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."
- John 10:25-26
I could go on, quoting only scripture "But he who restrains his lips is wise".
PS.
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
Modern Day Magi,
1. "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one"
- 1 John 5:7 - KJV
Isn't this verse written in itallics because the catholics added this to the KJV and openly confess that its not actually from the original texts?
Those other verses you mentioned are fantasic, Most are in the old testament before the Name of God was reveiled and the New Testament verses are even better.
They are very strong if you know the truth of election and the truth of who Jesus is.
Magi:
It grieves me to see you couldn't say you have NO other gods then Jesus like the question asked with NO BUTS.
The three that testify, testify to Jesus Christ as the ONE TRUE LORD GOD AND NO OTHER as in the first commandment.
"No one can say, "Jesus is LORD," except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:3
In relation to the Fathers name. Jehovah's Witness answer the same as you for they don't yet know who Jesus is.
May you truly ask Jesus Philips question. John 14:8
This will be my last comment on this topic.
We have already established that I do not have/follow/worship more than one God. I am saved by the One True Living God.
"No one can say, "Jesus is LORD," except by the Holy Spirit."
1 Corinthians 12:3
Jesus is my Lord, I have never said otherwise. This does not change the fact that scripturally Jesus is One of the Triniuity which is God.
ELOHIM - Plural can't be much more clear than that.
I confess Jesus is my Lord, according to 1 Corinthians 12:3 that means I have His Spirit dwelling within me. According to Calvinist theology only the Elect can even desire God, Iin my heart of hearts I desire to serve God and know His will and truth, thus by Calvinist theology I am one of the Elect. Which also means I am one of His Children, and am named in the Lamb's Book of Life. To suggest otherwise is false and offensive.
I have no doubt that you PB and you Riven have recieved a spiritual revelation as to your interpritation of the Godhead and apparent lack there of, of a Divine Trinity (Father Son and Spirit). "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."
- 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
In spite of what you claim, belief in Jesus alone and that the father and spirit are just manifestations of Jesus amounts to oneness theology and is unscrptural.
Magi
LORD doesn't mean one of many lords BUT LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.
Billions of Catholics and unbelievers confess every day Jesus is lord BUT they never mean He is Lord as in Jehovah or GOD ALMIGHTY.
I asked you to confess Jesus as your ONE TRUE LORD AND GOD WITH NO BUTS
I would LOVE to see you do this. In a word Yes or No Can you?
PB -
You have yet to deal with a single verse in John chapter 14 except by claiming that they are all figurative language. I fear that you are letting your presupposition govern your interpretation.
What is figurative about refering to one's self (if Jesus is the Father as you claim) in the third person, addressing the Father, praying to the Father, saying that the Father and I, we will dwell with you?
How is the Father "figuratively" greater than Jesus if they are the same person?
No one here is disagreeing that when we love Jesus we are loving the Father. We all do affirm that if someone sees (as in with their eyes opened by the grace of God to see the Son as the Scriptures reveal Him), we also see the Father. What we are claiming is that the Scriptures also reveal that the Son is distinct from the Father. We see the Father through the Son simply because it is through the Son that the Father reveals Himself, rather than through Buddha, the Pope, or human workings.
You seem to continually claim that the doctrine of the Trinity removes glory from Jesus. Indeed, it moves glory from the Son to the glory of the Father, as Jesus Himself did when He prayed the high priestly prayer in John 17,
"Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,"
Father, glorify your Son. Why? So that the Son may glorify You. Jesus is bent on one thing, to bring God glory. It would do well to follow Christ in this manner.
Indeed, there is someone above Jesus Christ. He is God the Father, who has set all things under Christ except Himself, God the Father.
1 Cor. 15 testifies exactly to that:
27For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
What does this mean? God (the Father) has placed all things under Christ. But note that the second half of verse 27 says that this is "he is excepted who put all things in subjection to him." verse 28 says that "the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him"
This is once again an echo of what has been repeated before when 1 Cor. 11 has been brought up.
"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. "
God (the Father) is the head of Christ, in the same way, husband is the head of the wife.
Under your understanding, Christ is the Father, so the head of Christ is God is equivalent to "the head of Christ is Christ." But how does that fit with the common definitions of "head"? Are you prepared to argue that "head" does not mean "over" or "superior" or "greater" ? How do you make sense of this verse?
The earlier verse says to you that Jesus subjected all things under himself, except for Jesus, because Jesus could not subject to Jesus who put all things under Jesus, but this was done so that Jesus would be subject to Jesus because Jesus put all things under his feet. I hope you see the clear confusion that the rejection of the Trinity in favor of proclaiming that Jesus is the Father does.
Yet the doctrine of the Trinity makes perfect sense of thess verses. God the Father is greater than God the Son in the sense that the Son submits to the will of the Father. God the Father has placed all things under the dominion of the Son meaning that all things are under the authority of the Son. This comes with one exception, that of God the Father Himself.
In the same way that God the Father is over the Son (the head), so are husbands over wives. A wife is to submit to the husband as the Son submits to the Father. (Of course we can talk qualifications on this, not following into sin, but the concept is clear).
God the Father placed all things except Himself under the feet of Jesus, so that Jesus would be subject to God the Father.
You have not dealt with a single verse laid out before you PB, and instead you have continually made bold claims.
All we have is a simple request. Take a troublesome text like any one of the ones cited thus far in almost any of the posts. Explain why the Trinitarian interpretation fails and what your interpretation (may I call it Oneness or Jesus-Only?) succeeds.
Do the same for a verse that poses a problem for a Trinitarian. Explain why a Trinitarian view fails and a Oneness view succeeds.
When you provide exegesis, people will be convinced. When you make claims without supporting it with exegesis, you are only going to convince yourself and those who already agree with you.
I am willing to continue this dialogue, simply because I suspect you have a rather large readership and I hope they would come to see the truth rather than be drawn astray. I do caution you to examine what you say carefully, for through these blogs there are people who may be young in their faith reading it, and you will be held accountable if they stumble. Of course, the fact that we speak before a Living God should be caution enough.
MXU:
I am not trying to win people to my way of thinking. I am simply proclaiming Jesus as Lord and God. You want lengthy exegesis yet the scripture says:
"I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." Matthew 11:25
After reading your 24 paragraphs I don't know where to start answering you. If you would like to address a verse in John 14 may we start with 1 of your choice.
Here is one verse you bought up:
"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."
1. Father is not mentioned either is Son, so may we stick true to the verse.
2. the Head of Christ is God.
3. The fullness of the God Head dwells bodily in Christ Jesus. (Col 2:9)
4. This asserts the deity or GODHEAD of Jesus Christ. NOT ANOTHER.
It is sad how most of you hold the Catholic trinitarian gospel even though it is invented by unbelievers.
Jesus had this same problem when explaining the scripture to the Scribes and Pharisees.
Jesus tells us who he was before he was born:-
John 8:58
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!"
Ironically he has the same name as God the Father.
Now that we are in the New Testament, the one Name of God has been revealed - Jesus.
I fail to understand what the endless debat is about.
The Father is the Son who is the Spirit who is in us.
The Spirit is in the Son who is in the Father who is in us.
God the Father became flesh, Jesus, and dwelt with us, who said He would come to us and never leave us, Holy Ghost.
The Father is God uncontained by His creation.
Jesus is God entering into His creation.
The Holy Spirit is God with us now.
Michael:
Thanks for leaving a comment.
The endless debate is because most commenters embrace the catholic doctrine the trinity which states something totally different to what you just wrote.
Sorry I lied PB I cant stay out of this one.
So you agree with michael?
This is an eloquent representation of the trinity.
"The Father is the Son who is the Spirit who is in us.
The Spirit is in the Son who is in the Father who is in us."
Shows us the truth in the apparent paradox of being both, the 'same' and yet 'in', 'One' and yet 'Three'.
"The Father is God uncontained by His creation.
Jesus is God entering into His creation.
The Holy Spirit is God with us now."
Identifies clearly each of the Three.
The Father is outside creation, Son/Jesus made flesh and enters creation, The Spirit/Comforter makes a temple of believers.
If you agree with michael PB then there is no need for his debate as it is now reduced simply to a debate about terminology and not doctorine. We have all been trying to argue that God is triune in nature. You simply don't like the term 'Trinity', that is fine.
MDM
That's good stuff Michael!
Its great and wonderful news.
Modern Day Magi,
You should really look at the trinity again, which clearly states the opposite.
Trinity or "three-ness" is where there are three persons under the one divinity.
In other words:-
1. The Father is not the Son
2. The Son is the the holy spirit
3 The Holy Spirit is not the Father, Yet all are consider the one God.
We say they are all Jesus which is why we are in opposition to this catholic gospel.
MAGI:
Michael:
"The Father is the Son who is the Spirit who is in us."
CATHOLIC TRINITY
"The Father IS NOT the Son who IS NOT the Spirit"
Click to learn the doctrine you say you believe
"In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, not proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son." Westminster Confession Of Faith
persons is the only problematic term as it (as i have said before) is limited as finite but attempts to describe an infite God.
PB you are only looking at half the picture.
The Father IS God, The Son IS God The Holy Spirit Is God. There is only One God (I have never said otherwise) so they must be One.
But again this is a finite representation of an infinie God, it cannot be fully complete.
Magi:
If there is only one God can you tell me His name And declare that you have no other Gods then Him?
I have answered this question before PB.
Yes there is one God.
Yes Jesus is God.
No I do not have any other gods beside Him.
No 'Ifs' No 'Buts'.
...........................
Now can you adress the following veres please PB.
"for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all."
- 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
(Youngs Literal Translation)
Notice the capilisation of the 'H' when talking abouth the Father and the lower case when talking about Jesus?
Magi:
I am very joyful you proclaimed with NO BUTS :) :) :)
Therefore God the Father,Son,Holy Spirit must be Jesus Christ if you really meant you have NO OTHER GODS BESIDES JESUS.
Explaining Corinthians 15:27-28
Now that you testify to Jesus and no other this verse is simple to understand.
1. All authority has been given to the Son (everything under his feet)
2. The Son-Ship of Jesus as the man is subjected/authority to God.
3. Jesus is no longer recognised by us as a man or flesh and blood (2 Cor 5:16) BUT as you now confess the ONE TRUE GOD OF HEAVEN and the Spirit who is in us.(God may be all in all)
4. Backing up scripture with scripture we have Col 3:11 ..Christ is all, and is in all.
Can I get an AMEN?
PB-I just wandered into your hornets nest from Rand's site-whoa! Is it like this every day? We touch upon scripture often at our site, but we don't often get theological discussions going as you have here.
May God continue to Bless you, Puritan Belief. Do you feel a bit like Nehemiah?
Ok, so you have started answering my request. Thank you.
PB said:
Here is one verse you bought up:
"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."
1. Father is not mentioned either is Son, so may we stick true to the verse.
2. the Head of Christ is God.
3. The fullness of the God Head dwells bodily in Christ Jesus. (Col 2:9)
4. This asserts the deity or GODHEAD of Jesus Christ. NOT ANOTHER.
1. Is not Christ the Son of God? The verse clearly does include at least a reference to the Son. The verse declares that the head of Christ is God, as you have so eloquently put in your second point. The key here is "what does that mean?" The passage states that as the the head of the wife is the husband, the head of Christ is God. We can look at a parallel passage in Ephesians 5:23
23For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
It is clear here that when Paul says "head of" he intends that the object which is not the head submits to the head. In the 1st Corinthians verse we have the head of the wife her husband just like the head of Christ is God. Does the verse not mean that Christ's submission to God is our example for a wife's submission to her husband?
But under your interpretation of Christ is the Father is the Holy Spirit, how do we understand Christ submitting to God if Christ is God? Under a trinitarian understanding, we draw a distinction between Christ and God the Father and believe that the passage refers to God the Father when it says "God." This makes perfect sense of Christ submitting to God as it was Christ who states repeatedly "your will be done, not mine" when praying to the Father.
2. is a quotation from Scripture, and in fact the question we are addressing right now.
3. you claim that the "fullness of the Godhead" is the phrase, but texts (NIV, NASB, ESV) translate it as the fullness of diety. (some in caps some not). You are merely using circular reasoning here. You're claiming that the fullness of God means the fullness of the Godhead: Father, Son, and Spirit. But that is the question we are discussing. A much simpler interpretation would be that the verse is simply stating that Jesus Christ is God in flesh, to which no one would disagree with and seems much more plasible.
4. Is yet another claim yet to be supported by texts or exegesis.
When you say that the interpretation has been revealed to you through God rather than through exegesis, what you're really saying here (and this is why you must be careful) is that it doesn't matter what the verses say in context, it is your interpretation that counts.
God does give us a measure of faith in what He says that may come apart from exegesis. But it is through the text, and a proper interpretation of Scripture that we come to a knowledge of God. We can't simply quote verses. I've already given you the example of quoting James 2 out of context I need not to give you another. As someone who holds to Sola Scriptura, I firmly believe that all beliefs are to be tested and tried in accordance to Scripture. If your belief in God fails that test, claiming that God has revealed it to you in a seperate revelation (as you just did, taking yet another verse out of context) does not cut it, unless you are willing to deny Sola Scriptura.
As a side note:
magi - The capitalization of different words is added by the translators, so when it capitalizes He or not him it's really their interpretation. In the greek the words were written in all caps. (so maybe a more accurate translation might be: AND THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD..." :-) )
thanks MXU,
i simply chose youngs as it made the distinction easy to see.
riven,
you are opposed to the Trinity simply because you are a oneness theologian. Oneness theology denies the fullnes of God and demeans the infinite nature of Him.
In regard to you comment directed to me that "Sadly the church does not hold you as a heretic and will not demand your blood as they did with Jesus."
"The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks."
- Luke 6:45
"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean"
- Matthew 15:19-20
With regard to revelation, you appear to be claiming to have a revelation of the oneness of God (Father is Jesus, Spirit is Jesus) that Trinitarians have not experienced.
For instance, in an earlier post (“Jesus Christ is in You,” 3/29/2006 9:47 am, 2:11 pm; http://puritanbelief.blogspot.com/2006/03/jesus-christ-is-in-you.html) you discuss revelation in connection with baptism--
Puritan Belief said:
“If you have been immersed INTO this name then you would proclaim it as I do”
“We are baptised into the name of JESUS spiritually not with water although this may be publicly declared later.”
Anonymous asks:
Is this baptism required for revelation (that Jesus is the Father, etc.)? Is it required for salvation? How would you instruct someone who wanted to pursue baptism into the name of Jesus? Is it necessarily spiritual (1 Corinthians 12:13) and without water? Is it performed by a minister?
And to add to the original 'anonymous' person's question, regarding the requirements of salvation, (though this is somewhat off topic, but I hope it will be permitted just enough to determine how close you are to Oness Pentecostalism), what are your thoughts on speaking in tongues? Do you believe that it is evidence of having the Spirit of Christ in you?
Anonymous:
Is this baptism required for revelation (that Jesus is the Father, etc.)?
YES,
No one knows the Father except the Son and everyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
This baptism "baptism now saves you" is when we are born again. It is impossible for an unbeliever to truly have the revelation of their heavenly Father unless He is in them. (Born of the Spirit) Christ in you the hope of glory. (2 Cor 13:5)
How would you instruct someone who wanted to pursue baptism into the name of Jesus?
Spiritual:
Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
With Water - Public Declaration
Any Saint who baptises us should Not do this into the titles Father,Son,Holy Spirit but by revelation of who Jesus is into the name of JESUS CHRIST as was done in every water baptism in scripture (Acts 2:38,Acts 8:12,Acts 8:16,Acts 19:4,Acts 19:5,Rom 6:3)
N.B I believe Christians can have intellectual misconceptions about this.
Anonymous2: I am not a oneness pentecostal and No Speaking in tongues IS NOT evidence of having the Spirit of Christ in you. In Australia these guys are from a denomination called the Revival center and after a bit of a chat they don't have a leg to stand on. (I love asking them if they have been bitten by deadly snakes and then watch them squirm..jokes (Mark 16:17) :)
Although not all speak in tongues I do believe that this is not for another dispensation but should be happening in the church of Christ today with the ORDER as described in Corinthians. Scripture tells us not to despise/forbid speaking in tongues.
However in organised churches I have only ever seen the extreme.
A. They never do.
B. They don't do it according to scripture.
MXU
Godhead vs deity - My bible dictionary says for Godhead "SEE DIVINITY (Deity)"
Exegesis: My point remains scripture is spiritually discerned. Scholars,Scribes and wise men never saw what little children could.
Does the verse not mean that Christ's submission to God is our example for a wife's submission to her husband?
Yes it does.
But under your interpretation of Christ is the Father is the Holy Spirit, how do we understand Christ submitting to God if Christ is God?
1. Now as a Son, God became a man born of the Spirit and flesh and blood.
2. He became one of the people, fullfilled the law, Prayed to his Heavenly Father, Submitted to God but without sin. (Son Submitting to the Father)
3. At the same time By His Spirit (God is Spirit) He was ruling the heavens and the earth. But in the flesh He was most certainly a man.
4. Jesus is not just the Son of Man or the Son of God. This is what this WHOLE POST IS ABOUT.
Jesus Speaking
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelations 1:8
Jesus is the Almighty God, He isn't part of 3 people making up God. Nor is he only recognised as a Son. He is much more then this. JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY THERE IS NO OTHER.
Modern Day Magi,
Before you poorly use scripture in an evil attempt to condemn me, i suggest you actually read and ponder over what i was saying.
Yes i do believe the Lord thy God is ONE as scripture clearly says.
And yes if you do hold the Catholic trinity then they would NOT, demand your death because to them you are NOT a heretic.
If the church was in power again, they would kill ME for heresy and demand my blood - Praise God.
Although now it seems you aren't quiet a trinitarian by definition or a oneness theologian.
The good part about being a "fence sitter" is that you can fall away from this catholicism and be a heretic as well.
PB said: "He became one of the people, fullfilled the law, Prayed to his Heavenly Father, Submitted to God but without sin. (Son Submitting to the Father)"
Apparantly this was all a charade? That is, Jesus was sort of 'setting an example', or fulfilling the law by 'praying' to the Father? You've got to be kidding right?
Furthermore, 'interceding' is a charade as well?
Give me a break PB. You have not provided one example of exegesis for these heretical assertions. All you want to do is quote scripture affirming that Jesus is indeed God and is indeed one with the Father. Who ever denied that? What you have failed miserably to do is to show how all the hundreds of scriptures that make clear distinctions between the three persons of the trinity are really in fact referring to one being alone.
Scriptures like the creation account in Genesis 1 where God says 'let Us' several times. 'Us'?? I thought there was one God?
And like Psalm 45:6-7 "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness; you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions"
I recently wrote a post on a few of these things, and one of the quotes I put in there is from CS Lewis:
“The words ‘God is love’ have no real meaning unless God contains at least two Persons. Love is something that one person has for another person. If God was a single person then before the world was made, He was not love.”
Do you care to explain to us how God can be perfectly loving in all eternity past and yet have no one to love? Unless, of course, you affirm that Angels are eternal?
In addition, can you please explain these verses and what the word 'begotten' means?
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” – John 1:14
“No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.” – John 1:18
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” – John 3:16
“In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.” – 1 John 4:9
Can one person really 'begot' himself? That sure makes a lot of sense. That's kind of like interceding with yourself -its ludicrous.
Lastly, can you please provide us with one faithful church father who holds your views? And please do not provide quotes from those who seem to hold your views, I'm asking for definite evidence that a faithful father has denied the three eternal beings that make up the trinity. Calvin? Edwards? Spurgeon? Owen? Luther? Whitefield? I didn't think so.
Nathan:
My Friend, Greetings in the Saviors Name Jesus Christ
Yes I am a heretic to all catholic doctrines including the trinity.
Jesus was begotten as the man Christ Jesus when he became flesh. Not as the eternal God of Heaven.
As Jesus says of himself.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelations 1:8
And again:
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" John 8:58
From here they picked up stones to murder him. Please email me for my house address if you would like to do the same to me and all other heretics who never denied our ONE TURE Lord and God Jesus Christ.
Kindest Regards
You seem to be asserting that you have received revelation from God that the Jesus is actually the Father. For those who affirm that Jesus is Lord (not in the hypocritical Luke 6:46 sense, but in the 1 Corinthians 12:3 sense) but deny that Jesus is the Father, do you consider them Christians?
Puritan belief said:
“Any Saint who baptises us should Not do this into the titles Father,Son,Holy Spirit.”
Anonymous asks:
Would you consider the baptism of those who are baptized “in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19) to be illegitimate?
Anonymous:
In relation to Jesus isn't it amazing that Jesus calls the Father Lord. "I praise you Father Lord of Heaven and earth". Yet the scripture makes it clear that there is only ONE LORD. I love how the scripture does this.
I believe that all Christians when they remember back to their First love when they Cried out on Jesus as newly born children were crying out Abba Father.
Like myself as Christians we have intellectual misconceptions and the truth can be taught out of us BUT "Together we have the mind of Christ"
In regards to baptism: Baptism by Water is a public declaration that you are in Christ (died with Him, also risen with him). This is symbolic of what has already happened.
No I would not call them illigitimate but would love for people to own the revelation as it was by the disciples in Acts.
Same as calvinism, Sinners are saved by Jesus (anything beyond this is just additions) not doctrine. I am not looking for people to confirm a creed, I am looking to see what they have to say about Jesus.
Hope this helps
pb
you state
"Yes I am a heretic to all catholic doctrines including the trinity."
It seems strange that you are always calling the trinity a 'catholic doctrine' as it is a doctrine held by almost all current christian denominations.I am curious about which church family upholds your 'spiritually revealed' understanding. As I can see there is no official group of Christians holding to this view and the trinity is definatly not just a Catholic doctrine at all
Also the Catholics believe that Jesus died on the cross...you do not doubt this as well...just because Catholics believe it does not automatically make it false!
riven,
if I misunderstood you then I apologise.
I have not changed what I have said about God and Jesus being God since the begining of this discussion, nor am I fence sitting.
You said that...
"Although now it seems you aren't quiet a trinitarian by definition or a oneness theologian.
The good part about being a "fence sitter" is that you can fall away from this catholicism and be a heretic as well."
riven, are you caliming to hold oneness theology?
Even PB who you have been supporting in this discussion denys the oneness theology as false. Please check what poneness theology is before you respond here as I would not want you to misrepresent yourself.
MDM
Magi:
Oneness pentecostals are not even Calvinist. Yes I have oneness theology this is obvious. What I have denied is to being labelled like T.D Jake's etc Please be careful to read what is said.
Katie:
The catholic doctrine the trinity has been adopted by other denominations from the catholic church.
With a few questions to any catholic on any doctrine there is a huge difference between myself and them.
For example Everyone here supposedly is saying Jesus is God. It is what they add after the BUT that is the problem. Jesus is God BUT there is another 2 different people who also are God the Father and the Spirit. They are all God BUT they are one.... see the extra BUTS.
This is why I was so glad that Magi gave me the answer with no BUTS. I was overjoyed about this for he said :
Jesus is the one true God,
I have no other Gods then Jesus Christ
Amen and Amen
pb i ll ask again
I am curious about which church family upholds your 'spiritually revealed' understanding.?
as i can see it they all hold to the trinity
“Yes I am a heretic to all catholic doctrines including the trinity.”
Well then I guess you reject such doctrines as the virgin birth since Catholics affirm this truth.
But once again you fail to solidify your argument by actually dealing with the relevant texts. Repeatedly quoting texts that affirm ‘one Lord’ and the deity of Christ do nothing to affirm your arguments. For we all agree that there is one Lord. Like I pointed out before, if you’re so sure there is ‘one Lord’, and I might add, that is one Lord by your definition, why cant you explain passages such as Genesis one, Psalm 45, Isa 53, etc? The fact is you can’t; neither can you point to any faithful church father who holds your view –or even a faithful creed for that matter.
Essentially, we have PB here holding to some belief God must have told him in the shower or something, because every faithful church father, every faithful confession of faith, and every faithful current denomination (worldwide) rejects his view as heresy.
I want to respond to each of your points in detail, but in the interests of brevity I will restrict myself to my original points.
First, I think we all agree that Jesus is God. That He takes upon the name of the Almighty. That He shares his father's name. I do not see why you think I am claiming some other gods or something. If you would please stop putting words where I have not spoken and words that I would deny in my mouth that would be appreciated (and I'm sure I speak for the whole group here, this is something that is repeated over and over by those you've disagreed with in these last few posts.)
To the text, once again:
1 Cor. 11:3
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
We agree that the verse does give us the model of submission for the wife to her husband in Christ's submission to God.
Now you began with "As a son, God became man."
Are you not reverting to modalism here? How God takes on different modes: Father, Son, Spirit? Or are you claiming something else entirely?
"He became one of the people, fullfilled the law, Prayed to his Heavenly Father, Submitted to God but without sin. (Son Submitting to the Father)"
Wait, but here you seem to be drawing a distinction between Christ and the Father. When you write that Jesus prayed to his heavenly father and submitted to him, aren't you assuming that they are actually different people, able to interact with one another? Or are you saying that Jesus submitted to the Father in the same way someone submits to himself by...??
But then that confuses the whole husband and wife thing.
You see, the text is fairly clear. The wife submits to her husband, a seperate person, in the same way that Christ submits to His Father, a seperate person. To claim that Christ is His Father and somehow Christ submitted to himself is to completely change the nature of submission portrayed by Paul in his epistles.
at the same time By His Spirit (God is Spirit) He was ruling the heavens and the earth. But in the flesh He was most certainly a man.
And again, you draw a distinction between Jesus and his spirit. Interesting.
You have just affirmed a distinction between Jesus and the Father and the Spirit within the Godhead did you not?
But now you've contradicted your own verse.
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
For if Col. 2:9 says as you claimed that the entire godhead dwells in bodily form. How can it be
If the fullness of God (diety) dwelt within man at the same time there was something outside of man (namely a Father to submit to and a Spirit to rule)?
As a side note, the Spirit is never portrayed in Scripture as ruling. Trinitarians (well, those that understand it to a greater extent) are clear that the Son submits to the Father, and the Spirit submits to both the Son and the Father (though Bruce Ware, in his book on the Trinity, pointed out that while Jesus was on earth, he submitted to the Spirit, but that's a side note... to my side note haha.)
As a side note, repeatedly claiming that we all lack spiritual discernment is in poor form. We certainly could claim the opposite. But like the Reformers would say, let Scripture decide.
Or maybe in biblical form: May God judge between the two of us.
But I might be using that inappropriately. I don't quite remember where it's from.
Great thoughts MXU.
And again“Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.” –Heb 7:25
From what I gather, PB has Christ being our High Priest while he was in the flesh, thus 'interceding' is used in reference to Jesus being in bodily form. Unfortunately though, that is not what this text says. It says that He 'always lives' -to make intercession. This is current, this is going on now. But why this language if the Son is no longer in fleshly form? He is interceding right now? With whom? Why would He need to intercede with Himself?
Just another of the dozens of scripture that you have no answer for. You seem to be making the same mistake as the Jehovah Witnesses do. They cannot fit the doctrine of the Trinity around their finite thinking, so they throw it out altogether. Very sad indeed.
Nathan:
My Friend, Lavish greetings in our Lord and Gods name Jesus Christ.
My point has always been that we do not recognise Christ any longer according to the flesh (bodily form).
I asked you more then once:
"Since we no longer recognise Christ according to the flesh how do we recognise Him?"
The whole point of this post "SHOW US THE FATHER" Is that Jesus is not Just the Son of God. The man Christ Jesus. We recognise Christ according to the Spirit who is in us.
2 Cor 13:5 "Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates."
Not only that we recognise him as our eternal God and Father.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelations 1:8
This simple truth is the basis that Christians understand Jesus as our advocate and our intercessor.
Best Regards
PB -
you wrote:
The whole point of this post "SHOW US THE FATHER" Is that Jesus is not Just the Son of God. The man Christ Jesus. We recognise Christ according to the Spirit who is in us.
Now, your punctuation is a little bit hard to interpret. Do you intend for it to say that "the whole point... is that Jesus is not just the Son of God the man Jesus Christ." ?
I don't know how to interpret it, as it stands your capitalization and extra period make it hard to read.
Could you clarify it?
So you believe that the Son of God was just a man that God worked in? He wasn't God walking on earth? What happened to the "fullness of God in bodily form" verse you kept quoting. God did not walk the earth now?
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