The doctrine of the Holy Spirit
The Bible teaches in John 4:24 that God is Spirit and he who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth.
Genesis 1:2 In the beginning the Holy Spirit created all things and spoke through the mouth of the prophets.
At the appropriate time the Holy Spirit created for himself a body to dwell in.
Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin shall be with child and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
Luke 1:35 The Holy Spirit shall come upon you and the Holy child shall be called the Son of God, Immanuel God with us. (Veiled the Incarnate Deity.)
Or, the Holy Spirit clothed Himself in flesh and dwelt among us in bodily form as a man Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit who in Genesis created all things is said in John 1:1 is Jesus Christ who created all things.
God who is Spirit does not dwell in temples or buildings, but in a body Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor. 3:17 And the Lord Jesus is the Spirit.
So the Spirit who is in the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and there is no other Holy Spirit who is God.
Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit embodied.
Questions you have to ask yourself
Is the Holy Spirit Jesus?
Is the Holy Spirit the Creater God Jesus?
Is the Holy Spirit seperate from Jesus?
Is the Holy Spirit a seperate person from Jesus?
Add Your Comment(27)
The doctrine of the Holy SpiritPosted by Paul G Wednesday, September 12, 2007
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
27 Comments:
If you want to deny God the Holy Spirit that's your problem. I am praying for you. But please realize that the Puritans did not believe what you believe. They believed, (as all Christians do) that the Holy Spirit is a separate person- they believed in the Trinity. As such, the name of this blog is misleading.
Anonymous;
Some of the Puritans believed what I have said about the Lord Jesus.
And some believed the lie that God is three persons.
Just like today, some Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God alone.
And the majority believes the lie of the Antichrist that God is three persons.
I will deal with that in future posts.
Anonymous, do you believe in some one else who is God, other than Jesus Christ?
The name Puritan Belief!
The administrator of this blog has chosen the name so that everyone would believe in Jesus Christ who is the true Puritan of the Puritans.
If you believe in Him you can not fail.
If you believe in man, you surely will fail.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on you own understanding.
It is true that God the Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit are separate persons and at the same time they are all part of ONE God. However, there are several places in Revelations (i.e. 3:1 4:5 5:6) where it refers to the seven Spirits of God. I have always wondered what it meant by that.
PB or Paul G,
please explain the scene of Jesus' baptism where all three of the Trinity (There is only ONE God) are present.
Again PB you misrepresent the Trinity doctrine as polytheistic so you can argue against it from scripture. Can anyone say "Straw-man"?
MDM
PB and Paul G,
please also explain John 5:22-30
MDM
Could you explain to me how the Hypostatic union remains intact in your model?
Christ's humanity is not a coat He can put on or take off. If He is the firstborn from the dead, and ever lives to make intercession for us (...between us and whom, I could ask...), His Humanity MUST BE enduring. Otherwise, we cannot hope in the resurrection from the dead.
(If Christ is not raised -bodily- from the dead, we believe in vain.)
I also have serious doubts about your commitment to the inspiration of Scripture, namely God's deliberate use of language. The idea of the Trinity came out of a long struggle between Christians (contrary to your ignorant rantings)trying to reconcile seemingly contrary passages of scripture without doing violence to OTHER passages of scripture.
biblicaltraining.net has actual seminary-level explanations of how they arrived at the doctrine of Trinity, for free. (Look under systematic theology) But don't let THAT stand in the way of maintaining your baseless and flawed assumptions about what Trinitarians believe.
...blah, blah, blah...
"anti-christ"...
...blah, blah, blah...
"Catholic"
...blah, blah, blah...
"...polytheistic...",
"...one cannot be 3..."
See, it's just like I answered for you!
If you don't stop giving canned answers as responses, people are going to wonder who's feeding you your lines. Even your rants(!) are tired and worn out.
It’s good to be back! This time I had no access to the blog from China, the authorities
must be tightening up.
Somebody:-)
Trinitarians have added other persons to the Lord their God.
They say it just like you!
“And they are all part of ONE God.”
I wonder of which god they all are a part of.
Modern day magi;
Three persons in one God are polytheistic.
Because the majority believes that lie, that does not make it true.
Also, the well meaning majority believes in evolution, and that does not make it true.
Theophilus;
Let everyone in whom the Spirit of God dwells, judge whether I have spoken the truth.
Why don’t you love the truth?
Tell me! Why is it that you don’t like when I present the Lord Jesus Christ as the only true God?
Paul G,
I know you believe the Trinity doctrine to be a lie, that is not what I asked.
I asked you to explain the scriptures I mentioned, the scene of Jesus' baptism and John 5:22-30 according to your understanding of Scripture.
I would like to read your explanation of those specific passages which seem very clear to me to demonstrate a personal distinction between the Father, Son and Spirit. Demonstrate from those scriptures that my position is false, please do not avoid or skirt around the passage I mentioned. I sincerely want to read what you have to say on this matter.
I know you passionately and prayerfully hold your doctrinal beliefs and just want you to explain them in regards to these passages. Since the Word of the Lord is infallible and the Lord does not change or lie His Word MUST be consistent all the way through.
How can you hold the position that the Trinity is false while reading the passages I mentioned? Please explain this to me.
MDM
P.S. I trust you trip was fruitful.
Also what about John 17?
I love the truth.
I do not love when you Blaspheme Christ and call HIM a liar, by denying what HE has said in HIS Word which HE magnifies above HIS NAME.
I have given you scripture. I affirm the One-ness of God. I also affirm the Biblical texts which have Father, Son, and Spirit as Distinct.
Do not presume to claim I do not love the truth when I am not the one who casually dismisses inconvenient scriptures.
For example: Luke 2:52; or distinction between consequence of blaspheming Jesus v. blaspheming the Holy Spirit; or: Jn 17:5 [And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.]
Again, I AFFIRM the Singularity of God. But I stand WITH scripture in ALSO affirming distinction within the Godhead.
Don't use circular arguments. Don't use "darkened mind" cop-outs. It would be easy for me to dismiss you the same way.
Don't use your empty one-is-not-three as that is a bare assertion, and fails to adress the words of Jesus Christ the Lord as HE explained Himself to us in HIS Word. Bare assertion is nothing more than personal opinion.
Your OPINIONS, and Mine, for that matter, are IRRELEVANT.
Go Berean on me. PROVE ME FROM SCRIPTURE, IF YOU CAN. We have established God is One. Any argument that proves God is One only affirms what both sides of this discussion already accept as fact.
Thank you, modern day magi.
I really had a wonderful trip; China is a great country and a great people.
To your questions;
In due time, I will answer them all plus more of those difficult questions and passages of the Scripture!
But first I find it necessary to cut the roots of this trinity doctrine.
By believing this lie, you and anyone else will ALLWAYS come to wrong conclusions and understandings, and your souls will never be completely satisfied in the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is because it is a powerful deception!
If the Lord Jesus may grant you and anyone else to see the truth, then the Scripture will open up to you in a new and wonderful way, especially when you can see Jesus alone exalted in every passage of the Scripture.
And keep in mind; the truth is NOT a theory, the truth is the Lord Jesus Christ just as He said, “I AM THE TRUTH.’ John 14:6
Theophilus;
You said,” I love the truth”, so does the Pope!
You do NOT affirm the One-ness of God.
You affirm a false god who is three persons.
I proclaim the One-ness of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, as I have laid it out in one post.
It is the One-ness of God IN the Lord Jesus, or the fullness of God IN Jesus.
You do NOT affirm the singularity of God.
You affirm the plurality (three persons) who supposedly is god.
I affirm the singularity of God, by simply saying it is the Lord Jesus.
You interpret Scripture to point to another person than Jesus.
I interpret Scripture to point to Jesus and only to Jesus.
So you can see; we are miles apart.
This is not just a little misunderstanding.
I use simple words, terminologies and illustrations.
Oh, by the way!
We have NOT established that God is one.
I am working hard to establish that doctrine, so that everyone can understand and rejoice in the Lord Jesus Christ.
You, the Trinitarians and the Catholics have established that god is three persons, an utter deception which was cooked up in Rome by the Antichrist Church shortly after the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Response to the "pope" and "unregenerate" non-sequitors)
You have a curious fixation on the Pope. He is a mere man, and I do not care what his positions are on anything of importance. If he has come to the cross, despairing of works, and trusting in Christ's atoning work alone, then he will be redeemed. If not, he will be damned. Like any of the rest of us.
But it is easy, isn't it, to invent labels for people with whom you disagree? That makes you seem justified to yourself in denouncing them. This is exactly what the Pharisee did when he prayed to himself saying "I thank thee that I am not like him." It is also easier to argue with a caricture of a person, than to address who they actually are, and what they actually think.
Paul. How is it that you claim to laud Jesus, and give Him the glory due His holy Name, yet are so casual in your willingness to usurp Him in a position that belongs to HIM ALONE?
review: 1 Cor 4:5; Jas 4:10-12
(also John 5:27; Acts 10:42, 17:31; Rom 2:1, 2:16, 14:4; &c)
You will, I expect begin to reply to Jas 4:10-12 by claiming that I am 'unregenerate' and not your 'brother'. Read it again, it says 'neighbor'.
Every time you rail agianst carictures of people, you elevate yourself to judge of men's souls. There is, and ever will be, only One such Judge.
I do not personally know how God will reply to your ignorance about His triune nature. He does, and that is enough.
I wonder whether you accept the Orthodox view of Christ? Is He the hypostatic union of God and man? Fully God? Fully man? Unmixed in nature?
The same people who wrestled with scripture and arrived at this complex doctrine, wrestled with scripture and arrived at the doctrine of the Trinity.
You complain that Trinity does not exist as a word in scripture, and that the doctrine developed later. Justification was not a developed doctrine until later, yet we (I hope!) believe it. Does hypostatic union appear in Holy Writ? No. But our forbears searched the scripture diligently, and wrestled with apparent contradictions, and kept doing so until an explanation was arrived at that did no violence to any [seemingly contrary] scriputres.
You try to use the arguement that Three-in-one is nonsensical. How would you explain the Nature of our Redeemer to a liberal theologian or atheist? Two natures?
100% + 100% does NOT EQUAL 100% !
[this response uses the same language that you use to attempt to refute the trinity] But I would hope that you accept that Jesus is Both fully God and Fully man.
Those who value Scripture, and the Author, submit to be judged by it. Those do not, judge it.
Read anew the words of Jesus Christ Himself, and His Word as a whole. There is not ONE errant word in it. He is NOT deceptive, particularily in passages where He addresses a group consisting only of belivers. Ask yourself, and more importantly HIM, what purpose He had in creating distinctions between what the Father does, the Son does, and the Holy Spirit does. He did not need to introduce these terms when "Lord" could have sufficed, unless He had a purpose.
I do not presume to say that you are accountable to me, or anyone else save God Himself. But consider this: Of whom did He speak when He said I thank You that You have Heard Me? Another comforter? 1 Corinthians 3:23 ? What was HIS purpose?
Theophilus:
1 Corinthians 3:23
and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
To me this is saying that because we are under Christ we are under God. Because Jesus is of God. It doesn't mention Father or Son in this context so to me I think it would be stretching it to read that in.
With another comforter is this comforter non other then Christ in you the hope of glory? Jesus says "I and the Father will make our abode in you" and he says I will come to you.
I think it is important that we recognise Christ according to the spirit and not the flesh and this Spirit is The comforter, the spirit of Truth the Holy Spirit.
Magi you have had those verses explained to you before.
I have read comments which skirt around them many times PB, none which address them specifically AND refute the Triune Nature of our Lord, Redeemer, and Creator Jesus. If this is not so please provide a link for me to revisit those thoughts.
Paul,
Often you say, "I will address ... soon" and you never do. Please address these passages then next time you have a moment at the computer to type.
PB you wrote the scripture "I and the Father will make our abode in you" How at all does this scripture even remotely suggest the Trinity doctrine is incorrect?
MDM
If I may answer for PB Theophilus,
No, neither PB, nor Paul G believe in the Hypostatic Union of Chirst. See PB's earlier post Jesus Virgin Birth - Mary was a Surrogate Mother for a discussion along those lines.
MDM
Question I posted on another thread:
John 17:11 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.
This goes back to Takin's question, in What Sense are they one?
Your belief is that Father/Son are Numerically One. Let's follow this to its conclusion. What, then is Jesus praying for us? Are we to be Numerically One? Certainly not!
Of course He meant that we be one in unity, in purpose, in mutual affection, and in all the other ways that Christians ought to be "one".
But, if Father and Son are merely One "numerically" then it is Impossible for Father and Son to be one in any other sense. -- I cannot be said to be in agreement with myself(!), since I have only one will. I can, however be said to be in agreement with another.
The question is: why did He reference Father (2nd person singular) and Son (1st person singular) as an example of the sort of unity that believers ought to posess?
Christians cannot be PHYSICALLY one for obvious reasons. You, by reason of claiming "No Destinction between Father and Son", have said that God cannot be UNIFIED. [Unity cannot exist in solitude.] Your model would have Him praying (again, to whom?) a worthless prayer. Did Jesus Christ Err in His example?
Who is wrong: you or Jesus?
PB: you said, "TO ME THIS IS SAYING" and "to me, I think"
Such phrases, when applied to scripture should be grounds for *enormous* red flags, as scripture is not of Private Interpretation.
Let's revisit context:
21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. 23 And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
The Apostle Paul, as always, uses a deliberate progression, going (in this passage) from common experience, to the individual redeemed, to the Incarnate Son, to the (non-physical) Father. Your explanation does not account for either context, or for the obvious redundance created in your usage.
[Parathentically, the lesson in this passage, is to take the believer beyond thinking carnally, and to put the focus back on the Glory of God.]
Returning to the orignial Topic of the Holy Spirit:
Your answered 'another comforter' is Christ.
You also said "Or, the Holy Spirit clothed Himself in flesh and dwelt among us in bodily form as a man Jesus Christ."
According to Luke 3, 21...Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Why was it necessary for the Holy Spirit to descend upon Himself? Are you suggesting that MORE of the Holy Spirt descended? And then, curiously, Jesus being filled (!) with the Holy Spirit was LED into the Wilderness.
Tell me, if YOU decide to do something, have you Decided to do it, or have you been Led to do it? By very definition, to be led somewhere is to have one Will submit to the instruction or direction of another Will.
This is to say nothing of the very clear use of language in which Jesus makes distinction between what the Father does, the Son does, and the Spirit does when He addressed them on the night He was arrested.
Example: However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears [!] He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. [emphasis mine]
With your endless accusation of the Trinitarian position twisting language and scripture to make it say what it does not say, how does your 'plain-language' understanding of scripture explain Jesus' use of these terms *without *reducing His plain-language to mere poetry? (and thereby calling Him "liar")
in What Sense are they one?
Spirit
Are we to be Numerically One?
We are to be one in the Spirit of Jesus.
"Why did He reference Father (2nd person singular) and Son (1st person singular)"
Jesus answers this by saying he was speaking figurative concerning the Father Because of their lack of understanding.
Christians are one in the Spirit of Christ.
Therefore as corinthians states since we no longer recognise Christ according to the flesh then how do you recognise Jesus?
My answer to this is I recognise him like this "Christ in me the hope of glory"
This is what Jesus meant when he said I and the Father will make our abode in you.
Or I will come to you.
Or I will send a helper
It isn't some other person it is Jesus coming to us by the the Spirit.
Regarding the baptism.
This was answered when Jesus says that this voice was not for His benefit but yours. It was to fullfill all righteousness.
It is not like there are 3 people there Simply Jesus Christ who is also the one upholding the universe by His Spirit. By His Spirit he can manifest anything noise or image He likes. Is He not the creator of all things?
When you get to heaven are you going to see Jesus as a man then next to Him a bird?
The greatness of the everything about God is all found in Jesus and not in any other body or person.
You said:
"Are we to be Numerically One?
We are to be one in the Spirit of Jesus."
Numerically 'one' is significantly different from being unified as one.
God, you say, is not unified. He is "solitary". If God is Triune, then He is One in substance, with a Unified Will / affections etc. If there existed no distinction in the Godhead, God would be one (singular) but not one (unified).
Therefore, we could not aspire to model our unity after His singularity.
The illustration would be of no value.
God is no liar.
Also, you are calling the converstion with the 11 on the night of His arrest 'figurative'. On what basis? [Beyond your weak assumption that Trinity is false.] Read again the whole passage. Chapter after Chapter in which He specifically spells out differences.
Also:
1) You did not respond to "led"
2) Never have you given a reasoned answer to how God can both do, and Not do something. example John 16:13-14.
Are you saying that Jesus is running afoul of the Law of Non-Contradiction?
The Holy Spirit is Speaking, but Not on His own authority. (Is He not God? What other authority could God appeal to [lawfully] besides God?) But speaks what He hears (from whom?) How could the Spirit take of what was His(the Son's) AND the Father's?
PB; your comment was excellent!
Theophilus and Modern day magi;
It looks like you swallowed the camel while straining for a gnat.
You can not look at Scripture like that, this is how the natural man looks at Scripture, but you are supposed to be spiritual men, born of the Spirit.
If Jesus prays to another person, then Jesus is not God.
If Jesus can only speak what another person tells Him, then Jesus is not God.
If another person is greater than Jesus, then Jesus is not God.
If Jesus speaks by the authority of another person, then Jesus is not God.
If Jesus’ will is controlled by another person, then Jesus is not God etc.
Jesus can not appeal to another person’s authority, because the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty and that makes Him the highest authority.
Like all Trinitarians, you put Jesus always on the backburner, by demoting Him to a second person, not quite good enough to be the Almighty.
Your real God the Father, who is he anyway? Is he the unknowable god who was among the Greek gods?
I read your post in 'surrogate'. You couldn't be more wrong if you expended effort. You approach quite nearly to the popish view of immaculate conception, and the (Stoic, wasn't it?) heresy that matter -- not a corrupt will -- is the origin of evil.
In scripture, (if you care to open it) you will find that a father is Always referenced as the one whose nature a child receives. (The expression is used with Adam, Abraham, Satan, and God himself in different places in this manner.)
Next when tracing His natural line through Mary, the Bible states it without editorializing. When tracing it through Joseph, it indicated that he is NOT Jesus' true Father.
You seem concerned that Jesus had been 'contaminated' through Mary's blood. If you are even passingly familiar with biology, the baby's blood and mother's blood never mix. If Jesus had not been genetically linked to Mary, He would not be David's descendant, any more than if He had been adopted. God's promises of David's Son would thereby fail. (note: they NEVER fail)
The power of sin to corrupt is evidently greater in your eyes than the power of God to redeem.
Otherwise you would not stumble over how a sinful person could produce a sinless child. It is not her merit (an error you are correct to avoid), but it is still her Genetics. The same God that will purify the redeemed from all sin in the Consummation, and cause a believer to persevere in trial/temptation, is more than able to keep His Only Begotten Son from being contaminated by the Jewish girl He chose to bear a child.
Quote: "Like all Trinitarians, you put Jesus always on the backburner, by demoting Him to a second person, not quite good enough to be the Almighty."
You claim I 'demote' Jesus. Yet again, you are revealing your (willful) ignorance about my position. Jesus is equal in every respect to Father and Spirit. But, through the Incarnation, he lived among His creation, in the same manner as the rest of us (except sin). If He had not (entering into the common experience of creation) lived a submitted life, [as evidenced by repeated references to His doing his FATHER's will, and not His own, of doing as He saw His Father doing, etc.] He could not have 'fulfilled all righteousness' (His words, not mine) if He had not been baptized. His baptism was obviously *not* related to the repentance of sin.
He was first humiliated (accepting human nature) and later glorified.
Of course, I suppose you will regulate it to some empty ritual, just as you do His legitimate prayers, Gethsemane, His cry on the Cross, His "I thank you that you hear Me." (and you accuse others of popish-ness?)
You have Called Jesus a liar on multiple occasions in your last message.
It is unfortunate you believe God to be so feeble that He cannot express Himself clearly in His own Inspired Word.
His use of 'dark sayings' that conceal things from the view of those hostile to God were NEVER lies, but they were sufficiently vague that you had to humble yourself before God to 'get' it.
Your subjective responses to scripture are unsupportable by the body of God's Word. You have repeatedly dodged verse after verse (Have you failed to notice we are not retreating to several favorite 'proof-texts' (as you do), but can find support for the Triune God throughout His Word.)
Calling Jesus Christ a liar when it is convenient to your cause may come easily to you, but those of us who know Him, cannot.
By the way. In your choice of "insult" referencing the 'unknown God', you reveal your ignorance of both History and Scripture.
Paul, (in inspired scripture) said "what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you".
You must think Jesus is so VERY busy that He needs your help in sifting the hearts of men. But why shouldn't someone who has called Him "liar" without missing a beat feel comfortable pharisaically usurping His rightful role of Judge.
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