The FIRST SAINT of the Australian’s Antichrist Church!
The Antichrist, the Pope and his Church (the Catholic Church) are celebrating their first SAINT in Australia, Mary MacKillop.
The Vatican, the headquarters and the seat of the Antichrist in Rome has finally given in to the pressure of her subjects to produce a SAINT in Australia.
Mary MacKillop was previously excommunicated from the Catholic Church and later reinstated through continuous pressure of all the SAINT worshipers in Australia.
To become or to be canonized a SAINT in the Catholic Church; the Vatican requires two miracles or more.
After hundred years of praying to a dead woman they could not find one miracle, so they invented two healings by two women whose identities are concealed, which they attributed to Mary MacKillop so she could be accepted by the Pope as a SAINT.
The Catholic Church is the Antichrist Church because every teaching and practice is contrary to the Scripture.
The Lord Jesus commands His Church to call no one on earth FATHER, since there is only ONE Father who is in heaven and He alone is HOLY! (Matt. 23:9+6:9)
But every member of the Antichrist Church is calling the Pope "HOLY FATHER" and the head of his Church.
Antichrist does not only mean 'Against Christ, it also means in place of Christ.'
In the Church of Jesus Christ, Jesus alone is the HOLY FATHER and the HEAD of His Church. (Col. 1:18)
Everyone who is born again is in Christ Jesus our Lord and is a SAINT. (Rom. 1:7)
SAINT, means, sanctified and set apart to be the bride of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
Question;
Has Jesus Christ set you apart and made you a SAINT?
Or do you wait till the Pope declares you a SAINT?
Or, perhaps indifferent and don’t care?
Do you agree or have another revelation?
I like to hear your thoughts.
Add Your Comment(77)
The FIRST SAINT of the Australian’s Antichrist Church!Posted by Paul G Tuesday, December 22, 2009
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
77 Comments:
Because I write strongly against the Catholic Church and her teaching and practice, I regularly like to say that I do NOT hate Catholic people!
It would be impossible for me to say that I love the Lord Jesus and hate my fellow men that are created in the image of God.
I come from a big Family (Roman Catholic), the Lord Jesus has saved and called me out of that Church to follow Him.
Paul
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Paul, I enjoyed our back and forth on Preacherman's blog just checking out your own. I too disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church, in many ways. I am distressed greatly when I read how much influence they had in choosing what was included within the pages of the Christian bible, and often wonder if we have gotten the whole story. I have been reading the book of Enoch, which explains a lot of what is in Genesis. well anyway it was nice talking with you.
Paul, I read through your post on the trinity, and I agree there is but one God, but I disagree with you who it is , just as the bible disagrees with you, Jesus Christ is not the “One Holy God” Jesus just as Moses was is a servant/messenger of the One God Jehovah. Lets look at a few scriptures which tell us exactly who Jesus is.
Isa: 42:1: Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
This is the scripture Jesus himself referred to when he asked those present not to reveal him.
Mt: 12:16: And charged them that they should not make him known:
17: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mt: 12:18: Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
The following mentions all three as individuals, not as the same being. And also declares who is the supreme being The Father.
Jn: 14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jn: 20:21: Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Heb: 1:1: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2: Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
I can point to many more scriptures which tell us exactly who Jesus was and is, but if you doubt these, I doubt that you would be convinced by the rest.
Have a good day. Brother in Christ Laymond
Thanks Laymond;
I appreciate your comments.
The doctrine of God is the most important doctrine.
Every other doctrine depends on that doctrine, (THE DOCTRINE OF GOD.)
Therefore it is of great importance that we who believe in Jesus Christ fully understand from Genesis to Revelation that the Lord our God is only ONE GOD!
The problem we have today is, 'WHICH ONE'?
Some people say it is Jehovah, so they are called Jehovah Witnesses regardless to what denomination they belong, because they testify to a god called Jehovah.
Others testify to Buddha, Krishna, Allah, Yahweh or whatever and each of them belongs to the god they testify about.
But we testify ONLY to Jesus Christ our Lord and proclaim Him to be the ONLY ONE true God from Genesis to Revelation and beside Jesus there is no other person, identity or spirit who is also a God. And certainly NO OTHER NAME than Jesus!
If someone believes in Jesus plus some other names, then that person believes in the 'gods', just like the pagans do and their belief and faith is worthless.
Well brother; all those Scripture passages you quoted, must be understood in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If I or you or anyone else does NOT explain those passages in Christ Jesus, then such a person does not build upon the rock which is Christ and all their doctrines will not stand and come to nothing.
Worst of all, they profit you and your hearers nothing.
But if we understand and explain all those passages in Christ Jesus our Lord, then you will be called blessed by the Lord Jesus.
Lots of love
Paul
Paul, we need to read what Jesus said, and what was said about Jesus. Jesus is the faithful witness.
Jesus said we should follow his example, and what or who was he witness to. A true and faithful witness, testifies to the truth.
Mt: 16:24: Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mk: 12:29: And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mk: 12:32: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Jn: 5:31: If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Rv :1:5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
If Jesus Christ is the true and faithful witness (and he is) should we teach something different than he did?
Was he not the first Jehovah’s witness ? Does he not say, follow me?
Jn:20:31: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1Jn:5:10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Laymond;
There is a big difference in what you are saying and what I am saying, apart from the Scriptures you have quoted.
If we miss the fundamental truth, then it is impossible to understand all the Scriptures you have quoted.
The fundamental truth is one person, 'the person of Jesus Christ our Lord', just as Jesus said (John 14:6) I am the truth.
That simply means that Jesus alone is the truth and nobody else, no other person, identity or whatever.
Laymond; you have stated correctly, "A true and faithful witness, testifies to the truth."
This is exactly what we have been doing in all our posts; please feel free to look them up.
Just think; Jesus Himself, would He have testified to somebody else, knowing Himself to be the truth?
I know that you believe that the truth is another person than Jesus, please tell me, who is that person and what is his name?
I like your question, "Was he not the first Jehovah's witness?" (Meaning Jesus)
Well brother, I tell you that every Jehovah Witness would be proud of you for saying that. :-)
Jehovah Witnesses testify to Jehovah and NOT to Jesus, they also say that Jesus is the Son of God and He testified to Jehovah, just like you have said.
Since Jehovah is NOT Jesus, I say that Jehovah never was, or is, or will be God. He is an imposter, a false god (Satan) just as I have said on the previous post.
But I or we who love the Lord Jesus with all our heart, mind, soul and strength we testify ONLY to the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Make no mistake, our testimony is true!
Jesus Christ was in the beginning, everything was made by Him, for Him, through Him and nothing came into being apart from Him. He is the Alpha and the Omega, no God was formed before Him, nor shall be one after Him.
He alone is the Lord our God forever praised.
Paul, is your namesake one of the conspirators , along with John, against Christ and for Satan, who claims to be god.
1 Jn: 5:9: If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1 Jn: 5:10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1 Cor: 15:24: Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25: For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27: For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28: And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
How about John “the Baptist” was he in on it also?
34: And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
35: Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
36: And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
It seems to me that they all preach “God the Father” is almighty even over his son Jesus.
It seems to me you should throw your lying bible away, and write your own, I truly hope you find the truth, before you stand before the judge,Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Laymond;
It seems to me that you and all Trinitarians believe that God is separate from Jesus.
You think that the person you call God had a Son just like I or you would have a son.
And He the first person God sent a second person His Son into the world to clean up the mess.
Laymond; you greatly err not knowing the truth or understand His Word.
In the Old and the New Testament, all Israelites and all disciples of Jesus including me did NOT believe that the Lord our God is two or three persons. I'd like to say that again; NOT ONE ever believed such a lie!
That Satanic deception became a doctrine at the rise of the Antichrist, the man of sin the Pope. The Lord has granted Satan to deceive even the elect if possible.
I or we have not received that witness from men but from God. (1 John 5:20)
Every believer must be taught by God and not by a Bible College, Church or whoever and not even by Paul G. (Isa. 54:13) :-)
If you pause for a moment, perhaps you might be able to see!
If God sent another person 'His Son', then God did NOT become flesh, because He sent someone else.
If God sent another person, then the second person is NOT God, because God is ONE and not two persons.
If both persons are God, then you believe in two gods.
If you say that both persons are ONE God together, then each person is only half a god and you are deceived.
Laymond; I consider you to be an intelligent man and you surely know that God is NOT two persons.
The Antichrist Church (the Catholic Church) has polluted the hearts of the elect to believe such a lie.
The account according to the Scripture is that God who is Spirit (John 4:24) clothed Himself in flesh and dwelled among us as the only begotten Son of God full of grace and truth and we beheld His Glory and testify that this man Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Lord God the Almighty came in the flesh.
Lots of love
Paul
Paul, as we both know the bible says Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables.
What do you think the following parable was saying?
Mt:21:33: Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35: And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36: Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37: But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38: But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39: And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
"The Catholic Church is the Antichrist Church because every teaching and practice is contrary to the Scripture."
You might think some of them are contrary to the Bible, but I think you would be hard-pressed to show that EVERY teaching and practice of the Catholic Church is contrary to the Scriptures.
Laymond;
Jesus spoke in parables so that they would NOT understand, but to us it has been granted to understand. (Luke 8:10)
Matt.21:33-39 tells us about the function and working in the kingdom of God and the sacrifice of the life of Jesus.
Thanks Jeffrey, I appreciate your comment.
Yes, I have made a bold statement, but I think that I am capable to show in every detail that the practices and teachings of the Catholic Church are in total opposition to the Scriptures.
Perhaps in the future, I might post of her wicked practices and teachings.
Regards
Paul
This comment has been taken from previous post to this page.
Jeffrey Pinyan said...
(Let it be known that I am a Catholic and believe that God is a Trinity of Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.)
A one-to-one correspondence between "God" and "Jesus" (that is, an understanding of God as ONE person, Jesus Christ) makes an awful lot of New Testament writing sound confused:
"Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know --" (Acts 2:22)
"This Jesus God raised up" (Acts 2:32)
"God has made him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36)
At face value, these and many other verses of Scripture seem to make a sharp distinction between God and Jesus, as if Jesus were not even God.
The main question that this God-as-one-person theology raises in my mind is, how is the same ONE PERSON both the Father AND His own Son? (Second: what is the Holy Spirit?) For example, there are plenty of times in the New Testament where Jesus speaks to His Father: is He speaking to Himself? (Lk 10:21) Why does Scripture speak of the God OF Jesus? (Rev 1:6) Why does Scripture speak of Jesus sitting with His Father? (Rev 3:21)
(Is this matter resolved by distinguishing between Jesus-man and Jesus-God?)
Trinitarian theology addresses this matter by understanding God to be an eternal communion of three Divine Persons. A philosophical argument could be made from love:
God is love, and man is called to love as God loves. Is God's love a selfish love or a self-giving love? (I think we can agree it is a self-giving love.) If God is love from all eternity, than surely there must have been Someone for God to give love to before He created anything, and that uncreated Someone must also, therefore, be God, but such that it is not God loving Himself. Thus, a plurality of Persons in God, such that Person A of God can love Person B of God.
I realize I've said very much all at once. I'd be happy to address these points one at a time.
Have a blessed new year! On this day commemorating our Lord's circumcision and the first shedding of His blood, to fulfill the Law and accomplish our salvation, may He bless you with every spiritual blessing in the heavens!
Yes Jeffrey the Scripture is written so that it sounds confusing.
But to us who understand the Scripture, it is NOT confusing at all.
You said, "This Jesus God raised up". (Acts 2:32)
That's absolutely correct, we always agree with the Scripture just like Jesus said in (John 1:19) that He (Jesus) will raise Himself from the dead.
Do you think that two persons raised Jesus from the dead? Or perhaps the third person the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead (Rom.8:11), or what about the fourth person, the Father who raised Jesus from the dead. (Gal. 1:1)
Perhaps you might think that all those God people gave each other a help?
Absolutely NOT Jeffrey!
It was the only one God (Jesus) who raised Himself from the dead just like Jesus said.
As a Catholic you can never SEE or UNDERSTAND that and neither can you know the love of God.
That is because you are NOT born again.
Jesus said that you must be born again to SEE those things, (John 3:3) and you can NOT even enter into the kingdom of God unless you are born again.
Any man can join any Church or denomination he wants to, but that is NOT so with the kingdom of God.
No man can join or become a member of that kingdom, unless he is born into it by a new birth.
Jeffrey, before you can come to God, you must know who He is!
We know and testify that the ONLY ONE true God is the Lord Jesus Christ our Lord.
Regards
Paul
"Jesus said in (John 1:19) that He (Jesus) will raise Himself from the dead."
(I assume you meant John 2:19 or John 10:17-18.) I understand your point: Jesus says quite clearly that He can take up His life again. But the Apostles Peter and Paul repeatedly speak of God raising Jesus:
"God raised him up" (Acts 2:24)
"This Jesus God raised up" (Acts 2:32)
"the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead" (Acts 3:15)
"Jesus Christ of Nazareth ... whom God raised from the dead" (Acts 4:10)
"The God of our fathers raised Jesus" (Acts 5:30)
"God raised him on the third day" (Acts 10:40)
"God raised him from the dead ... this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus ... he raised him from the dead ... he whom God raised up saw no corruption" (Acts 13:30-37)
"God ... has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31)
(Now please remember, I believe Jesus is God; I just do not believe that Jesus is God the Father, but rather God the Son.)
So there appears to be a disconnect between the apostolic preaching in Acts and the words of Jesus Himself in John, but we know there cannot be. Let us continue to look at the NT preaching:
"... us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification." (Rom 4:24-25)
"Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father" (Rom 6:4)
"If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life" (Rom 8:11)
"if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead" (Rom 10:9)
"God raised the Lord" (1 Cor 6:14)
"we testified of God that he raised Christ" (1 Cor 15:15)
"he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus" (2 Cor 4:14)
"Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead" (Gal 1:1)
"... which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places" (Eph 1:20)
"... and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:6)
"God, who raised him from the dead" (Col 2:12)
"If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God" (Col 1:12)
"wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead" (1 Thess 1:10)
"Through him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory" (1 Pet 1:21)
In addition, we have "Jesus died and rose again" (1 Thess 4:14), which stands in contrast to those other quotes in one regard, that it does not speak of Jesus being raised in the passive sense, but of Jesus rising in the active sense.
So let me now address your question:
"Do you think that two persons raised Jesus from the dead? Or perhaps the third person ... or what about the fourth person..."
I believe that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was a work of three Divine Persons -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- acting as one, because They are the One True God. I believe that the Father raised His Son from the dead (so Jesus was "raised", passively) and that Jesus, because He is God, could truly say that He has the power to take up His life again and rise from the dead (so He "rose", actively).
I don't understand WHERE you got "fourth person" from. If you're going to debate Trinitarian theology, please try to get the terminology right. We profess ONE God in THREE Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Scripture also calls Jesus the servant of God (after the pattern of Moses):
"God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first" (Acts 3:26)
Is Jesus Jesus's servant? No, Jesus is the Father's servant; the Son serves His Father. Does Jesus pray to Himself? No, Jesus prays to His Father.
Your unification of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as ONE PERSON is a shallow and inconsistent interpretation of Scripture.
At whose right hand is Jesus seated in Heaven? His own?
Why does John write of the "God of Jesus"?
Is Jesus a ventriloquist Who throws His voice when the Father's voice speaks from Heaven? Is Jesus His own Son and His own Father?
What does it mean that Jesus was "full of the Holy Spirit" and "led by the Spirit"?
(And I have been born again in the waters of baptism -- thanks be to God! -- which has begun His saving work within me, uniting me to His Body and His Bride, the Church.)
Jeffrey;
Just pause for a moment!
All of us, we also can read the Scripture just like you.
There isn't a Bible verse I haven't read.
The problem we have is that you are violating every form of God given intellect.
Mark 12:29 Jesus said, the MOST IMPORTANT commandment is this, that the LORD our GOD is ONE!
Consequently HE is NOT two or three as you are saying.
Who is the LORD?
There is only ONE LORD and that is Jesus, there is only ONE GOD and that is the LORD our GOD who is ONE, just as Jesus said.
Is God then a Trinity of persons as you have said?
Absolutely NOT!
It is impossible, for HE to be MANY!
It is impossible, for HIM to be THEM!
HE, always without exception is ONE!
Just like your earthly Father (Physical Father) is ONE person.
If you're your earthly Fathers were THREE persons, then it would be impossible for you to know you're your Father and you would be an illegitimate Son.
And no illegitimate Son has an inheritance in Christ Jesus our Lord and God.
Jesus said that if you do NOT know that I AM HE, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24) That "HE" is the Lord God the Almighty and the bad part is that you would die in your sins (not forgiven).
Regards
Paul
"the LORD our GOD is ONE!"
Why, in the Old Testament, is the word echad used to speak of God in the Shema (Deut 6:4, cf. Gen 2:24) instead of the word yachid?
"Just like your earthly Father (Physical Father) is ONE person."
Again, you are misusing Trinitarian language. We do not believe the Father is three persons, or that there are three Fathers. There is one Father and one Son, not two Fathers or two Sons; but one God.
Put aside, if you would, for just a moment, what you perceive to be the state of my immortal soul. Can you address my other questions? Imagine that I believe what you do, but still have these questions about the "God of Jesus" and Jesus praying to the Father; please, address those questions!
Paul, when we call Jesus the almighty God, we rob Jesus of his title "The perfect Man" the man who withstood all temptation and remained sinless. If as you say Jesus was really God he was never tempted, so it took no effort on his part to stand before all temptation and refuse to surrender to it. He never knew the temptations bestowed upon man, as we read in the bible "God cannot be tempted". You rob Jesus of being our eternal priest, our spokesman before the true God, his Father. You rob Jesus of his sacrifice of death for mankind's salvation. God cannot die. If as you say Jesus raised himself, he was not truly dead, I have yet to see the definition of dead other than "without life". If Jesus was not truly dead he could not be brought back from death, resurrected.
Jeffrey;
I understand that you believe that the Father is not three persons.
You believe that the Father is only one person with two other persons to make up one God.
If that does not sound like a polytheist, then what does?
We believe that there is only one person who is God and that is the Father (1 Cor. 8:6) and beside Him (singular) there is certainly no other person who is also God.
This person who is called the Father (not by name only by title) is the Holy Spirit in Genesis who created all things since God is the Holy Spirit (John 4:24) who came upon Mary (Luke 1:35) and the Holy child shall be CALLED the Son of God, (Emanuel God with us).
That means that God who is Spirit clothed Himself in flesh and dwelled among us as the only begotten Son of God Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
As to your questions, I am able to answer them intelligently so that it makes sense.
But to think that one God person is praying to another God person is ludicrous at best and it only happens in the Catholic and all Trinitarian Churches.
Laymond;
First, I did not say that Jesus was God, But that He 'IS' God, the only true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)
Yes you said rightly, that God cannot be tempted, but when He was clothed in flesh 'Jesus Christ', He certainly could be tempted and He was tempted by Satan.
You said, "God cannot die"; that is true, but when He became a man (Emanuel, God with us); he did die on the cross.
It was not possible for Jesus to die since He never sinned, so God laid upon Him the iniquity of us all and then it was possible for Him to die.
The definition of death is 'SEPARATION';
When a person dies, his body (flesh) is separated from the soul and spirit.
The body goes in the ground and the soul goes to judgment and then to hell and the pit.
But that is not so with the children of God, the born again believers in Jesus Christ.
They do not go to judgment, since Jesus was judged on their behalf, but they go to be with Jesus. Absence from the body is to be presence with the Lord.
Oh, by the way, on your blog Laymond; Amos Love really is amazing in all his comments and explanations. I have to give him a big AMEN! He is of kindred Spirit.
Paul, should all this be redacted from the bible, or just ignored?
Mk: 14:61: But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mk: 14:62: And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Acts: 2:32: This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33: Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Acts: 2:34: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts: 7:55: But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Col: 3:1: If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Heb: 8:1: Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
1 Pt :3:22: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Laymond; that's right, nothing should be deducted or ignored from the Bible.
But the Bible must be correctly understood, interpreted and explained.
Think of the 'Ethiopian Eunuch', he was not saved and could not understand the Scripture even though he studied diligently, till a man full of the Holy Spirit explained and interpreted the Scripture to him.
All Scripture must be discerned by the Holy Spirit which comes from God (1 Cor. 2:14), the man without the Spirit cannot understand the Scriptures.
Every man of God must have the Holy Spirit in him and if He is not, then he does not belong to the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 8:9).
A question; How do you know when the Spirit of God is in a man?
Laymond; All those Bible verses you have quoted are called 'metaphors'!
I hope that you don't think that in heaven is a literal throne and on that throne sits one person called the Father and next to Him is His little Son and in the midst of the throne standing the Lamb. (Rev. 5:6)
Perhaps that might be a little crowded on that throne? :-)
The throne of God speaks of the position of ruler ship, just like a King is ruling from his throne.
At His right hand; speaks of God's strength in Jesus, His absolute power to do whatever He pleases, and Jesus is in that position on earth just as He is in heaven.
Now 'heaven', that is the realm of the Spirit, it is not the natural heaven.
In Stephens case Acts 7:55, he saw the glory of God in the realm of the Spirit and Jesus in the position of absolute power and authority therefore he spoke!
A question; what glory did (Stephen) see?
And did you Laymond ever saw the glory of God?
The Jews understood what Stephen was saying before they stoned him.
They also said that He (Jesus) claim to be God before they tried to seize Him. (John 10:33)
Paul
Paul G. said- At His right hand; speaks of God's strength in Jesus, His absolute power to do whatever He pleases, and Jesus is in that position on earth just as He is in heaven.
Jn:5:19: Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jn:3:34: For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Jn:7:17: If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Jn:7:18: He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Jn:8:26: I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
Jn:8:28: Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Paul G. is this the same Jesus you say has absolute power to do whatever he wishes ? If my Lord lied to me like that, I could not trust him to save me, no Jesus did not lie.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Paul
Sorry to contact you on this post.
Seems Laymond erased the post and comments,
All 17 of the examples where the Bible
consistently interchanges and identifies
Jesus with God. Hmmm? Wonder why?
I left you a message there.
Hope you received the e-mail.
I was looking for your e-mail.
Wanted to send you something.
My e-mail
lovefaith101@gmail.com
A. Amos Love
A. Amos Love;
Thanks for the visit.
Surely did I rejoice in all your comments you made to Laymond.
Especially how you have exalted the Lord Jesus Christ in every point and gave Him all the glory and majesty which only belongs to our wonderful Lord and God Jesus Christ.
It always has troubled me when anyone demotes the Lord Jesus to second fiddle so to speak or second God or even worse, not the Lord God at all and replace Jesus with another person or identity called Jehovah.
My intensions are like yours, to convince and win everyone over, even Laymond, to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ that He is both Lord and God to the glory of the Father.
Lots of love
Paul
Paul
Met some folks a few years ago who said
"Jesus is NOT God."
They had lots of questions, as Laymond does.
At the time I had no answers.
Started asking God different questions
and got some different answers. Praise Jesus.
I was looking for your e-mail.
Wanted to send you something.
My e-mail
lovefaith101@gmail.com
Blessings and peace...
A. Amos Love
Well brother; not only a few years ago, but just the other day you heard that Laymond does not believe that Jesus is the Lord God the Almighty. He thinks that Jesus is only the Son of God and that the real God is Jehovah.
Hmmm? That sounds to me like a Jehovah Witness.
What troubles me is that most so called Christians believe the same lie.
A. Amos Love; instead of sending me an E-mail, please feel free to post it here on the blog, so that we all might learn something of our wonderful Lord and savior Jesus Christ.
In Christ Jesus
Paul
Paul G said...
Laymond; You said; "Now look at what you quoted Jesus as saying while speaking to his Father. "And this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God."
Laymond, that is NOT in the Bible!
Perhaps you have read that in the book of Alli baba and the forty thieves. :-)
I think you are cooking up your own version, or should I say your own perversion of the Bible.
Again lots of love
Paul
laymond said...
Paul, What version of the bible do you read that excludes John 17;3?
KJV - Jhn 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
NKJV - Jhn 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
NLT - Jhn 17:3 - And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.
NIV - Jhn 17:3 - Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
ESV - Jhn 17:3 - “And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
RVR - Jhn 17:3 - Y esta es la vida eterna: que te conozcan a ti, el único Dios verdadero, y a Jesucristo, a quien has enviado.
NASB - Jhn 17:3 - "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
RSV - Jhn 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
ASV - Jhn 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ.
YNG - Jhn 17:3 - and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ;
WEB - Jhn 17:3 - And this is life eternal, that they may know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
VUL - Jhn 17:3 - haec est autem vita aeterna ut cognoscant te solum verum Deum et quem misisti Iesum Christum
Paul, unless you have your own version of the bible, you will find I was not lying nor perverting the bible in any way.
Yes Laymond you are right, I hastily thought that you had referred to 1 John 5:20, my mistake, sorry about that.
John 17:3 does not contradict 1 John 5:20. "And we are in him who is true-even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."
So then it is not as you suggest that the true God is another person or identity other then Jesus Christ.
I have left you a comment and a challenge at Preachermans blog.
May the Lord bless you!
Paul
You are right when you said "John 17:3 does not contradict 1 John 5:20. "And we are in him who is true-even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."
because neither calls Jesus "the true God" both are referring to Jesus' Father, as the true God.
If they wrote as we do today it would read as follows,
5:20. "And we are in him who is true-(even in his Son Jesus Christ.) He is the true God and eternal life."
saying the very same thing Jesus said in John 17:3 " And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, (and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.)
Yes Laymond; either way 1 John 5:20 and John 17:3 speak of Jesus to be the true God.
"And we are in him who is true";
Meaning that we are in Christ, since Jesus is true and the truth (John 14:6), just like the true God is in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.(2 Cor.5:19)
For this reason JESUS CHRIST is the true God and eternal life.
After all, 'It is Christ who is God over all'! (Rom. 9:5) and NOT Jehovah.
Regards
Paul
you are mad
Paul, I don't know who Anonymous is calling mad, you or me or maybe both :)
Thanks Laymond for that comment;
They said the same thing to Jesus (John 10:20), He is demon possessed and raving mad.
Paul, I have a couple questions which I hope you can answer. They have to do with reconciling Scriptural testimony with your claim that God is one Person only, the Lord Jesus Christ; that Jesus IS the Father.
When Jesus prays to the Father, to Whom is He praying? Himself?
When Jesus is in Judea and the Father's voice is heard from Heaven, is that Jesus's voice?
When Jesus says He is "going to the Father", is He going to Himself?
What does Jesus mean when He says "the Father is greater than I"?
Some clear answers to these questions would greatly help me understand your point of view!
BTW, buy GSM blocker to jam all spy devices in your room or office.
very informative. one of the better posts ive read in a while. thank you
www.ramblingforever.com
Jeffrey; I am glad that you are asking those questions.
It is of great importance to come to a clear intelligent understanding of all those questions you have asked.
"When Jesus prays to the Father, to WHOM is He praying? Himself?"
The Scriptural answer is, He is praying to God, since there is only one God and that is the Father.
Now let's look who the Father is and to whom Jesus is praying.
Luke 1:35 The Holy Spirit shall come upon you and the Holy child shall be CALLED the Son of God, (Emanuel= God with us)
It is the Holy Spirit (John 4:24) who fathered Jesus, or He, the Holy Spirit clothed Himself in flesh (veiled the incarnate deity). Either way you look at it, it is the same, that the Father of Jesus is the Holy Spirit in the person of Jesus Christ.
So then, to whom do you think that Jesus is praying?
The answer is simple, Jesus is praying to His Spirit, from the position as a man (flesh) to His Father who is His Spirit inside of Him.
Just as God (Jesus) swore by Himself, because there was no one greater to be found (Gen. 22:16).
"When Jesus is in Judea and the Father's voice is heard from Heaven, is that Jesus voice?"
Heaven is the realm of the spirit, or a spiritual plain, just as we are seated in heavenly places.
So they heard that voice which came from the Holy Spirit, the Father of Jesus (Luke 1:35) who is in the body of Jesus, just like Jesus said, (John 10:38) "That you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
Plainly, Jesus spoke by His Spirit to them! Just the same as Jesus is speaking to me at present and to everyone who is born again by the Spirit of God.
What about YOU Jeffrey!
YOU desperately need to hear the voice of Jesus and be saved!
(John 5:25) Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead (spiritually dead) will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live." (Eternal life)
"When Jesus says He is going to the Father, is He going to Himself?"
(2 Cor.3:17) "Now the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit"!
Since the Holy Spirit clothed Himself in Flesh and dwelt among us as a man in flesh appearance, that man died on the cross and after the resurrection went back to 'Spirit', since the Father is the Holy Spirit of Jesus.
For the same reason Jesus could say that the Father is greater than I.
The Father is the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35) who is in Jesus and fills the Universe and is greater than the man you can look at 'Jesus'.
Kind regards
Paul
American Phil;
Thanks for you comment.
Paul, since you are in an answering mood, I have a question.
What was the message contained within the "gospel" good news.? What was this "good news" intended to do.?
Jeff
You ask some reasonable questions.
When you’re trying to prove God is “Three Persons.”
You also have stated or make the impression that you think God is “Three Persons.”
You write on January 07, 2010 12:42 AM...
“I believe that the resurrection of Jesus Christ
was a work of three Divine Persons.”
Does the Bible say, God is “Three Persons?”
Or does, “Traditions of men” say, “Three Persons?”
Neither is “Trinity” or “Trinitarian” in the Bible.
Don’t we get ourelves in trouble when
we trust in our “carnal mind”
and use terms not in the Bible?
Paul
Liked your understanding of the Holy Spirit
being the Father of Jesus. "One."
Also in Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,
The mighty God,
“The everlasting Father, “
The Prince of Peace.
Most would say, “The Prince of Peace,” is Jesus. Yes?
Seems one of the names of “the Son, Jesus,” is
“Everlasting Father.” Hmmm? "One?"
Then in Rev 22:16 Jesus calls Himself
“The Root and the Offspring of David.” "One."
Couldn’t that mean Jesus is saying,
Jesus is both the Father and the Son of David? "One."
Jeus did say, I and the Father are “one.”
Matthew 22:41-42
While the Pharisees were gathered together,
Jesus asked them, Saying,
What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?
They say unto him, The Son of David.
But Jesus, who loved to confound the religious
crowd, asked another question. And this time they
were so confounded by His question that no man
was able to answer Him a word. And from that day forth no man dare ask Him any more questions.
Matthew 22:43-46
He saith unto them, How then doth David
in spirit call him Lord, saying,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
And no man was able to answer him a word,
neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
The answer to His question,
“If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?”
can be found in Revelations 22:16 when Jesus says I am the root and the offspring of David.
Revelations 22:16
I Jesus...
I am the root and the offspring of David...
Couldn’t this mean Jesus is saying,
Jesus is both the Father and the Son of David?
Be blessed in your search for truth.
Paul, given your last reply:
"So they heard that voice which came from the Holy Spirit, the Father of Jesus (Luke 1:35) who is in the body of Jesus."
I am confused again. Is Jesus HIMSELF God, or does Jesus have God in him? You say that the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus; what then does it mean when Jesus says the Father will SEND the Holy Spirit? Why wouldn't Jesus just say "The Father will send Himself" or "the Holy Spirit will send Himself"?
Instead, Jesus says "the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father." Jesus is not saying that the Counselor, the Spirit of truth, is the Father, but that He proceeds FROM the Father. He even says that "the Spirit of truth ... will not speak on his own authority".
Or do you believe that the Spirit of Truth, the Counselor, is not the Holy Spirit?
Amos, the Bible does not say "God is three persons", but the doctrine of the Trinity, which the early Church believed, and which was formally defined in the 4th century, is based on the Church's authoritative interpretation of the Bible.
(And the Church preceded the Bible, not the Bible the Church.)
In the Shema, Deut 6:4, the word echad is used. "Echad" refers to a unity in plurality, as in "ONE bunch of grapes" or "the two shall become ONE flesh".
In John 1, it is clear that the Word IS God and the Word is also WITH God. Why would John bother telling us the Word was "with" God after he had just told us that the Word Itself IS God?
"Jeus did say, I and the Father are “one.”"
He also said that the Father is GREATER than He.
Jeff
Much agreement with your use and understanding
of “echad” meaning “one bunch.”
Echad = one, stresses unity, while recognising
diversity within that oneness.
Seems we are very close. Yes?
I do reject the “Trinity” doctrine specifically
because you say the “Trinity” is based on...
“the Church's authoritative interpretation
of the Bible.”
Jesus told “His disciples”NOT to exercise “authority.”
Mark 10:42-45
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them,
Ye know that they which are accounted to
rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them;
and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
But so shall it not be among you:
but whosoever will be great among you,
shall be your *minister: (*servant)
And whosoever of you will be the chiefest,
shall be servant of all.
The Catholic Church,
The Protestant Church,
The Pentalcostal Church, etc, Name another.
All exercise Authority
in violation of what Jesus said.
So in reality they have NOT God’s authority.
Their “word” means nothing to me.
The Bible warns us to beware of...
false apostles,
many false prophets,
false teachers,
false Christ’s, (false anointed one’s)
Commandments of men,
Doctrines of men,
Precepts of men,
Philosophies of men,
and
Traditions of men,
That nullify and cancels out the word of God.
For me, when someone “exercises authority,”
they now fall in the “false” catorgory.
No longer a disciple of Christ. yes?
Does “Catholic” hierarchy “Exercise Authority?”
That’s NOT God’s authority. Is it?
The “Trinity” doctrine states
(please correct me if I’m wrong)
The Father is God,
The Son is God,
The Holy Spirit is God. (I’m good so far.)
But then it goes on to say...
The Father is NOT the Son,
The Father is NOT the Holy Spirit,
The Son is NOT the Father,
The Son is NOT the Holy Spirit,
The Holy Spirit is NOT the Father,
The Holy Spirit is NOT the Son.
This last part I reject as being false.
The Son is called “The Everlasting Father” Isa 9:6
Jesus calls Himself Father and Son of David. Rv 22:16.
The Holy Spirit came upon Mary, and Fathered Jesus.
They are “one”
Calling God three “persons” is not in the Bible.
God is NOT a person. NOT three persons.
God is Spirit. Yes? Not a person.
God is “ONE.”
Thank you Jesus...
Amos, your claim that Jesus told his disciples not to exercise authority is poorly founded.
And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. (Matt 10:1)
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matt 16:18)
"Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you." (Luke 10:19)
"And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high." (Luke 24:49)
"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son." (Acts 20:28)
For even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you, I shall not be put to shame. (2 Cor 10:8)
I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down. (2 Cor 13:10)
But we beseech you, brethren, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you. (1 Thess 5:12)
Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:5)
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. (Heb 13:17)
Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock. (1 Pet 5:2-3)
I have written something to the church; but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority. (3 John 9)
"He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations" (Rev 2:26)
There IS authority in the Church. That authority belongs first of all to Christ Who is the Head of the Church, which is His Body, and He endows certain members of His Body with authority, both in this world and the world to come.
Laymond;
The simple message of the gospel is this;
"COME UNTO ME, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest". (Mat.11:28)
Laymond; That "COME UNTO ME" is definitely NOT unto Jehovah.
Look, who is speaking.
I think with that gospel even the children will COME to Jesus and He will forgive their sins and trespasses and give them rest from all their searching and wondering, and He (Jesus) will be their loving heavenly Father, protector and savior etc.
Perhaps you might be able to add some more good news to the gospel of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ?
A. Adam Love;
Thanks for your comment to Jeffrey, great stuff!
I could not have said it better; you really know how to wield the sword of the Spirit.
It is very clear, straight, simple and direct to the point. I marvel that most people cannot see that.
Yes Jeffrey, you are confused! I will go one step further to say that you are not only confused but also deceived.
Deception is more dangerous than confusion.
Confusion is rooted in man.
But deception comes from Satan, since he is the MASTER deceiver and the Father of all lies. Everything which is NOT true comes from him and he delights to keep you captive in his Kingdom. (2 Tim. 2:26)
But the good news is that whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved!
By call upon the Name of the Lord, I do NOT mean to call on the names of your three persons. They cannot save you, because they are useless.
And not even your Jesus can save you, since your Jesus is a god among three gods!
Your Jesus and spirit and gospel are a different to the one we preach. (2 Cor. 11:4)
Our Jesus is ALONE the Lord God the Almighty and He does not share His God-ship, God- hood or whatever you like to call it, with anybody else.
Jesus said in (Isa. 43:10);
"You are my witnesses, declares the Lord (JESUS), and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior."
As to your questions;
Yes, I can explain all those questions, but if you cannot understand A. Amos Love and my explanations, then how could you understand anything else, even if we explain everything from Genesis to Revelation.
Lots of love
Paul
Paul, if you "can explain all those questions," then please, do.
Jeff - Paul - Laymond
Good stuff. I love it when folks use scripture,
lot’s of scripture, to back up what they are thinking.
Thanks all for taking the time to write them down.
I really enjoy this back and forth. It causes me
to think, pray and study the “Word.”
And that’s a benefit.
And writing it down, in a short comment,
hoping to be understood, without the other parts
ofcommunication, voice tone, facial expressions,
body language, etc. is a challenge.
And a great exercise.
Hopeing and praying this “conflict of beliefs,”
causes us to focus on Jesus and “The Word of God.”
Grace and peace to all...
Jesus loves me and forgives me all my sins...
Paul said "Laymond; That "COME UNTO ME" is definitely NOT unto Jehovah.
Look, who is speaking.
Paul, do we need to just jettison old John's book from the bible ?
according to you it is chocked full of lies, I can't see why you would ever quote such a lair.
Jn:3:34: For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Jn:8:26: I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
Jn:8:28: Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jn:8:38: I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Jn:12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jn:12:50: And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Jn:14:10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
why would you ever quote a man who would put all these "untruths" in his book?
Jeff
You write...
“Amos, your claim that Jesus told his disciples
not to exercise authority is poorly founded.”
Sorry for not explaining myself fully.
I’ll agree that God has given “all” believers
“authority” over “unclean spirits,”
serpants and scorpions, all the power of the enemy,
and that “power” is from on high.
So, do we all “exercise authority”
in the Spirit realm?
Yes.
But have many quetions if you’re suggesting that a
mere sinful human can come between
me and my God and have authority “over me”
in this world, and
I should “obey man” and NOT God.
You write...
“He endows certain members of His Body with
authority, both in this world and the world to come.”
1- Could you point out, and name,
those “certain members,” of the body of Christ,
who today, have been “endowed” with authority?
2- Who, today, has the Holy Spirit made “overseers”
to care for “The Church of God?”
The ekklesia, the called out one’s, the Church?
Who is an “overseer” who cares for “me?”
Who is an “overseer” who cares for “you?”
3- Who, today, is “over Amos” in the Lord?
Who, today, is “over Jeff” in the Lord?
4- Who, today, are the “leaders” I should “obey”
who are “watching over my soul”
that I should submit to?
Who, today, are the “leaders” “Jeff” should “obey”
who are “watching over “Jeff’s” soul”
that Jeff should submit to?
So many questions. { ; o )
Amos, in response to your questions:
Yes, God puts "mere sinful humans" in authority over others, even in His Church! Jesus Christ set St. Peter over His whole flock. (cf. John 21)
Jesus, the one mediator between God and man, gives us all a share in his mediation. Or did you hear the Gospel directly from the Lord Himself? Were you baptized by an angel? No, God continually uses men, sinful and weak and imperfect though we are, to carry out His work. Not all are sent with the same specific task, but the overall mission is the same. Paul speaks about the many "vocations" or "ministries" in the Body of Christ in 1 Cor 12:27ff.
My answers to your numbered questions will be of no surprise to you, if you remember that I am a Catholic Christian.
God has appointed Joseph Ratzinger as the successor of Saint Peter; he is the Bishop of Rome under the name of Benedict XVI. As such, he exercises a universal ministry over the whole flock of Christ.
God has also appointed various other men, unworthy and imperfect though they are, to the episcopate, to the office of "overseer". These men are all bishops. Each bishop has in his care a "particular church", that is, a "diocese" of the universal Catholic Church.
And God calls men to the presbyterate, to participate in a special and particular way in the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ, as ministerial priests. Some of these priests are pastors over smaller congregations in dioceses, called "parishes".
Bishops and priests are all pastors of souls. I know those pastors who are over me, and I know that they all received their calling from the chief Shepherd, the Good Shepherd, the Lord Jesus Christ! So long as those men do not stray from the Lord and from the teaching of His Church, I will humbly submit to them; if I fear they are teaching error and leading souls astray, I will do my best to approach them in charity and humility to address the matter.
Jeff, how can it be said, that God is no respecter of men, if he places one man over another, in his church?
In the Church of Christ the elders are chosen by the congregation, to serve them, not lord over them.
As I understand it catholic laity has no say in who is over them, and the laity serves the authority.
Sounds different from what Jesus did.
Jeff
Appreciate your passion for your beliefs.
And your willingness to stand for those beliefs.
Love your willingness to study and use the scriptures that seem to confirm your beliefs.
We do see the scriptures very differently today.
A little background...
Born into and baptized by,
“Russian Orthodox Religious System.”
That’s close to “Roman Catholic Religious System.”
Lot’s of “tradition of men” not in the scriptures.
Lot’s of strange things: clothes, titles, candles, incense, pews, hierarchy, praying to saints,
Lot's of stuff not in the Bible.
Parents moved a few years later.
No Russian Orthadox congregation close by.
Confirmed in the “Lutheran Religious System.”
During High School - “Episcopal Religious System.”
No attendance on Sunday,
No basketball and dances Friday nights. Oy Vey!!!
Dated Catholic girls, sat in the pew with them.
Married in the “Lutheran Religious System.”
I’ve made the rounds. Had a taste of “Religion.”
Ahhh - “Religion;” AAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!
baptised, confirmed, sunday school,
receiving communion, over and over,
praying the Lords prayer, over and over again,
reciting the apostles creed, over and over again,
praying prayers from a book, over and over,
listening to sermons, over and over again,
kneeling, bowing, dipping, sign of the cross,
holy water, confessionals, alters, pulpits,
crucifixes, holy days, acts of contrition,
and “nothing.” Absolutly “NOTHING.”
No “relationship” with Jesus. Didn't hear His Voice.
“The Religious System” will provide you with
anything and everything “except” what’s important,
“Knowing Jesus.”
I mean really knowing Him.
Paul cried out, “That I may know Him.” Php 3:10
Hearing “His Voice” and following Him.
Being taught by Him, Jesus,
Being obediant to Him, Jesus.
Not some “Religious System” that tells you
how to act and how to think.
Jesus, best friend, best teacher, best overseer...
Jeff
Every "Religious System" on the face of the earth
says, you have to do something
in order to please God.
I’m talking about “The Religious System,”
not about people who Love Jesus.
Religion is the system, not the relationship.
It doesn’t matter which "Religious System” it is.
They "all" say you have to do something
in order for you to please your creator.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s
Catholicism,
or Protestantism,
or Penta - it’s going to cost you a lot - ism,
or Charis - maniacle - ism, which I’m also familiar,
or Islam,
or Buddhism,
or Judaism.
In Islam you have to bow to mecca five times a day
or God’s not happy with you.
If you’re in a certain Jewish sect you have to wear
a hat, grow curls, observe certain holy days, etc.
in order to please God.
If you’re Catholic you have to be in the building
every week, go to confession, receive communion,
observe certain holy days of obligation, etc. etc.
and many other traditions. Or God's not happy.
If you’re Pentecostal - Charismatic you have to be
in the building two or three times a week,
you have to obey a man who says he’s your
God ordained authority, if you don’t you’re labeled rebellious, and you have to give a certain amount of money, ten percent, to the corporation each week
or you’re robbing God.
Lies, lies, and more lies.
When people don’t or can’t live up to
all these obligations, these heavy weights,
from “The Religious system”
they experience guilt and shame.
They feel they are not worthy of
God’s Love, blessings and healing.
Guilt and shame is not from God.
Guilt and shame make people sick.
Guilt and shame are heavy weights
put on our shoulders by people who call themselves
“religious leaders.”
“Religious Leaders.” AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!
Jesus sets people free from guilt and shame.
You shall know the “Truth.” and be set free....
When I pray with Roman Catholics, for healing,
I have to deal with so much guilt and shame and
people felling they are unworthy
because of the teachings of Rome.
Having to say acts of contrition, saying, hail Mary's,
No, No, No, the blood of Jesus cleanses my sin.
NOT acts of contrition and NOT hail Mary’s.
No, Jesus loves us, forgives us all our sins,
and doesn’t remember our sin anymore.
That means I don’t have to remember either.
Religion. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
“Religious Leaders” AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
Putting heavy weights on peoples shoulders.
Jesus sets people free.
Religion puts people into bondage.
Thank you Jesus for your love.
laymond: "how can it be said that God is no respecter of men, if he places one man over another, in his church?"
What do Acts 10:34-35, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Timothy 5:21, James 2:1-9, and 1 Peter 1:17 have to do with God choosing SOME of His own to be over others?
St. Paul says that "the elders who rule well [should] be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching." (1 Tim 5:17) St. Peter says "you that are younger be subject to the elders." (1 Pet 5:5)
God's Church is indeed hierarchical, as a body is hierarchical, but just because one is over another in the Church does not mean God "respects" the one over the other. God puts certain members over other, in an orderly hierarchy.
"In the Church of Christ the elders are chosen by the congregation, to serve them, not lord over them."
(So then, since the elders in your congregation serve the others, it is the OTHERS who are over the ELDERS!)
The clergy in the Catholic Church are indeed ordained to serve the whole Church. They exercise their sacramental ministry for the good of souls.
"As I understand it catholic laity has no say in who is over them..."
I don't see why the laity must have a say in who their pastor is; I mean, I can understand complaining against who IS in charge (in the case of misconduct or false preaching), but there's a real concern about erring laity choosing an equally erring pastor.
Anyway, I don't recall the early churches voting for their pastors:
"they had appointed elders for them in every church" (Acts 14:23)
"This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you." (Titus 1:5)
"...and the laity serves the authority."
What kind of service did you have in mind? The laity serve their pastors in various ways, yes, such as by carrying out particular liturgical (worship) ministries, by serving on pastoral councils or finance councils, by helping in the day-to-day tasks (working in the parish office, leading committees), and, of course, by carrying out the lay apostolate, which is to sanctify the world OUTSIDE the walls of churches.
What type of "serving" do you think lay Catholics do?
"Sounds different from what Jesus did."
Everyone serves one another in the Church, but in varying ways; "there are varieties of service, but the same Lord."
Jeff
You say...
“God has also appointed various other men,
unworthy and imperfect though they are,
to the episcopate, to the office of "overseer".
These men are all bishops.”
Then you must also know there are qualifications
for those “overseers.” Yes?
Are there any qualification that are NOT important?
You also say...
“if I fear they are teaching error and
leading souls astray,
I will do my best to approach them in charity
and humility to address the matter.”
Really? Hmmm? We’ll see.
Why did Paul give qualifications if not important?
Ever meet an “overseer’ who fulfills the qualifications?
An overseer, elder, “Must be”...
That “must be” is the same Greek word as
...You “must be” born again. John 3:17
Seems to be a small word but very important.
It’s Strongs #1163, die. - It is necessary (as binding).
Computer - necessity established by the counsel
and decree of God.
Bishops “must be.” Hmmm? Very important or...?
Blameless... How important is this word?
Webster’s - Without fault; innocent; guiltless;
not meriting censure.
Synonyms - faultless, guiltless, innocent,
irreproachable, spotless, unblemished.
Computer - that cannot be reprehended,
(cannot be, rebukable, reprovable, cannot find fault)
not open to censure, irreproachable.
Strongs #423 - anepileptos
inculpable, blameless, unrebukeable.
How many “Bishops” knew about the money given,
and the horrible child sex abuse and did nothing?
You can ask them in humility like you said.
Why are they still Bishops?
What did your Pope know?
And do nothing tiil it hit the papers?
And it became a world wide scandal?
How many Bishops, who honestly examine themselves,
seriously considering these qualifications,
can see themselves as blameless, without fault
and thus qualify to be an overseer, elder?
And if you can see yourself as blameless;
Is that pride? And no longer without fault?
The Bible talks about bishops, and elders.
And qualifications for bishops and elders.
Can you have one without the other?
This is only one of many qualifications.
blameless --- unrebukeable, without fault.
husband of one wife --- married, male.
rules well his own house --- have a family, children.
not greedy of filthy lucre --- Not greedy for money.
vigilant --- no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
sober --- of a sound mind, self controlled.
of good behavior --- modest, unassuming, reserved.
no striker --- not quarrelsome, contentious.
not a brawler --- abstaining from fighting.
not self willed --- not self pleasing, not arrogant.
not soon angry -- not prone to anger.
temperate --- having power over, restraining.
holy --- undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
just --- righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.
“having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly”
faithful --- believing, one who trusts in God's promises.
not accused of riot --- Strongs - asotia --- unsavedness.
an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
unruly --- disobedient.
if someone thinks they qualify?
Is that pride and thus not without fault?
The Bible talks about elders and qualifications for elders.
Can you have one with out the other?
Amos, I am sorry "religion" failed to introduce you to Jesus Christ. I have not had that misfortune (although I'm sure you and Paul will insist that I DON'T know Jesus and DON'T have a relationship with Him since I believe that Jesus is God the Son, etc.).
You might be interested in reading a word study I did on "religion" in the Bible. I hate to disappoint you, but the word "religion" MEANS "to be bound fast to, to rely on". In other words, religion IS ABOUT relationship!
You mention that there are things not found in the Scriptures in the Catholic religion. Tell me, before the New Testament was completed, did people do nothing, waiting for it to be written? For that matter, how did we GET the New Testament? Where is God's "table of contents" for the Bible? It's not part of the Bible itself...
"clothes, titles, candles, incense, pews, hierarchy, praying to saints"
The book of Revelation clearly depicts Jesus, the High Priest, in vestments, amid lampstands, amid incense. Pews?! James mentions sitting during worship, but yes, worship was mostly done standing until the invention of the pew in the previous millenium. I have a blog post about the intercession of the saints in Heaven.
"Every 'Religious System' ... says, you have to do something in order to please God."
Of course we must do something to please God: we must have FAITH (it is impossible to please God without it) and if we say we love Him, we must keep His commandments. We must worship Him, and we worship Him corporately, as a body, the Body of Christ, which is why we do not neglect meeting every Sunday, the Lord's day, to worship Him.
As for your comment that "We do see the scriptures very differently today", I would have to say that you see the Scriptures very differently from how the early Christians did too.
Finally, yes, many Catholic bishops today are in terrible trouble with our Lord. The chickens are coming home to roost. The road in Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops, so they say...
I'm good for one more round of question-and-answer, and then I will politely bow out of this conversation. I cannot change hearts, only the Lord can do that. I will pray for you.
Amos, I have another question for you: Let's say you commit a sin tomorrow. What do you do next?
Jeff, you said one more round of questions, so I will make mine short.
Have you ever attended any church other than Catholic?
Laymond, I have visited other churches, yes, but I have never been a non-Catholic Christian.
I attended (in Plainsboro, NJ) a service at the "Gospel Fellowship Church", several services (and a Bible Study) at "Princeton Alliance Church", "First Presbyterian Church". I have also been to a "Christ Congregation" church in Princeton, NJ; and "Waldwick Methodist Church" in Waldwick, NJ.
I've also been to a handful of Orthodox Divine Liturgies. I've never visited Anglican/Episcopalian or Lutheran churches, though.
I've been to Western (Roman) and Eastern (Byzantine) Catholic liturgies as well.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
For everyone who is participating in commenting, I'd like to say that I appreciate your contribution, especially to the most important question of all questions.
Who is the God of the Bible?
Who is the God of all creation?
Who is the God we believe and have faith in?
Who is the God we preach and proclaim?
Everything, even our destiny of salvation or damnation depends on that question.
Mostly in the heat of the battle (debate) we tend to lose sight of the most important question and get tangled up in other questions and debates.
Regrettably it is unavoidable for some of us to be offended even though we might not purposely intend to do so.
Offence for the sake of offence is sin.
Offence for the sake of truth is the will of God, since the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. (1 Cor.1:18)
Therefore we should pay special attention to the word of God and be quick to repent and adjust to the word of the Lord.
Kind regards
paul
Laymond; the Bible is the word of God and there are absolutely no lies.
Only in our understanding can we be wrong and deceived.
I know that you don't believe that Jesus is the Lord God.
That is because you don't lift up the Lord Jesus Christ. By that I mean that you lift up another person or god by the name of Jehovah and proclaim him to be God and demote Jesus to be second in command and just a man.
Sure you will call Jesus the Son of God just like Adam who is also the son of God. (Luke 3:37)
If you would lift up Jesus, then you would know that Jesus is the big 'HE' in John 8:28 and NOT Jehovah.
Again Jesus said if you do not know that I am 'HE' you will die in your sins. (John 8:24)
Laymond, these are warning verses and you should not be on the wrong side of those verses.
Jeffrey Pinyan;
Perhaps it would be good for you to do a word study on the word Father, especially HOLY FATHER.
The Apostle Peter whom you claim to be the first Pope would never have usurped the title Holy Father, since the Lord Jesus forbids anyone to be called Father, especially Holy Father.
Only the man of sin (the Pope) who sets himself up in the temple of God proclaiming himself to be God the Holy Father and demoting Jesus to a Son would do such a thing.
Kind regards
Paul
A.Adam Love;
Thanks for sharing a little of your life story.
Mine is similar, except that the Lord has called me out of the Roman Catholic Church, the Mother of all prostitutes.
Again, thanks for telling us about 'Religion'.
Oh, how I hate that kind of religious rubbish.
I pray that you continuously will be bold in proclaiming the truth and expose their anti God and anti Scripture practices and teachings.
May the Lord Bless you richly!
Paul
Paul said "If you would lift up Jesus, then you would know that Jesus is the big 'HE' in John 8:28 and NOT Jehovah."
Jn: 8:28: Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Paul let's look at this vs. you claim will solve all my problems, let's discuss what Jesus was talking about here.
Paul you are certainly correct when you say Jn:8:28 speaks of Jesus when, it is said "I am he", but you confuse just who the "he " is that is spoken of here. "the Son of man," (the Son of God) is the he spoken of, not God.
Jn :3:14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Mt: 27:50: Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51: And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52: And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53: And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54: Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Jesus being lifted up, like the serpent in the desert, is referring to being lifted up on the cross.
And what Jesus said in Jn :8:28 certainly was proven true, when the people watching said "Truly this was the Son of God."
And you are right again when you say I personally did not lift Jesus up,but my sins did.
May God, the Father of Christ Jesus bless you, with understanding.
Laymond, you said;
"Paul you are certainly correct when you say John 8:28 speaks of Jesus when, it is said "I am he", but you confuse just who the "he" is that is spoken of here. "the Son of man,
" (the Son of God) is the he spoken of, not God."
Laymond, you fail to see that ‘the Son of man and the Son of God IS the Lord God.
Jesus cannot be the Son of man and the Son of God at the same time.
Jesus is certainly NOT a Son of a man.
Jesus is certainly NOT a Son of a God like you suggest.
Jesus is CALLED the Son of God (Luke 1:35), He is NOT a Son of another person or identity, He is God clothed in flesh, (Emanuel=God with us).
Jesus IS that HE in (John 8:28) He claims to be.
You are saying the same thing like all the religious leaders said and still say to Jesus, (John 10:33) 'you are a mere man claiming to be God.'
They had the same unbelief and lack of Revelation just like you.
All those terminologies like 'Father, Son of God, Son of man etc.' are figurative (John 16:25). But to us who are born again He (Jesus) speaks plainly.
I have been speaking plainly to you, why is it that my language is not clear to you?
Perhaps that is because it must be discerned by the Spirit the Holy Spirit.
I am scared that I might lose you Laymond and hope that you are not offended.
It is my earnest desire that you and everyone would turn away from their false gods and come just like the prodigal son back to the Father Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
Because you are at the door and jet so far away, it is easier for the wicked sinners and the scum of the society to enter into the Kingdom of God than it is for you.
Remember when Jesus said that He is the door, He also said that any man must enter by Him, that door is narrow, only few are those who find it.
Well Laymond, It's not complicated, just knock! Jesus will surely open.
Then you will be a brand new man, old things have passed away and behold all things will be new.
What a friend we have in Jesus.
Lots of love
Paul
Paul said; "I am scared that I might lose you Laymond and hope that you are not offended."
The only thing that offends me is, you thinking you ever convinced me.
I have talked about the being of Jesus with many, and you are farther from the truth than any I have talked to. I talk to you with the expectation of convincing you to repent, I have no disillusion that what you say might be right.
Laymond, you said;
"I have talked about the being of Jesus with many and you are further from the truth than any I have talked to".
That has always troubled me that people think that of me.
Since I am always testifying to the truth and preach the truth and lead everyone who is willing to the truth.
The truth is not a theory, or a doctrine, the truth is simply Jesus, or the person of Jesus Christ our Lord. (John 14:6)
If I lift up Jesus in everything I say, teach, preach, proclaim and testify, then I hope that I have not fallen short of proclaiming the truth Jesus Christ the Majesty on High.
I am aware that there are other men more skillful in language and presentation than me.
Well, just look at A. Amos Love's comments at your blog.
From Genesis to Revelation he systematically explained the deity of Jesus. Wow, brother that was brilliant!
Why did you delete him?
It was manna from heaven, spiritual food that satisfies our souls.
You said;
"I have no disillusion that what you say might be right."
Laymond, There is hope in that!
Kind regards
Paul
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