The Word was With God
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (Jn 1:1)If God is with another who is not Himself then there are 2 gods by definition.
The truth is simple:
Jesus is the word who was with God. This God is "God the Father" for scripture tells us that there is One God the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Romans 15:6,Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6)
In the beginning Jesus is not only with God the Father but He was God the Father.
Jesus says:
I am the Alpha and the Omega who was and is and is to come the Almighty (Rev 1:8)
When Jesus was talking about the Father he said this:
"For if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sin" (John 8:24)
True CHRISTians want people to believe in Jesus FOR THEIR Lord and God told them:
He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (John 12:44-45)
The Father is the Messiah the Christ of God:
"But when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is." (John 7:27)
Jesus made it clear that he was indeed this Christ whom no man knew where he was from. He answered their question saying that in the flesh they know where he was from "Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am" but by the Spirit they didn't know the Christ "... But he that sent me is true, whom ye know not" (John 7:28)
For to see Jesus with your spiritual eyes would be to see and know the Father HIMSELF
"If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him and have seen him" John 14:7
Add Your Comment(44)
The Word was With GodPosted by Correy Tuesday, May 02, 2006
44 Comments:
i just find it so hard to see where you are coming from - in trying to explain away the 'with god' part of john 1.1 you just ignore it and say it cant be true
you said - "In the beginning Jesus is not only with God the Father but He was God the Father." seems to me to be a perfect example of the trinity. that jesus both is god and can be with god at the same time. both distinct and one as you said. it just seems that your sole premise is that jesus is God - trinitarians believe this also - not once has jesus been demoted to less than god as you seem to think - the trinity proclaims one god - jesus is god revealed. I cant see why in upholding this you need to deny the father and the spirits vital roles.
you even seem to speak like a trinitarian sometimes - "Oh how lovely it was when the Lord saved me by revealing His Son in my heart" if you truly believe that jesus is god only with no distinction you better not refer to him as revealing the son because how can god be his own son?
PB,
you seem to still have difficulty with actually what the Trinity teaches. Comments like "If God is with another who is not Himself then there are 2 gods by definition." show this.
Allow me to clarify the doctorine again for you.
The doctorine of the Trinity states that "In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity." (WCOF) This, at first glance, appears to violate the law of logic known as non-contradiction. (That something cannot be true if it contradicts something else that is true or contradicts itself) How can God be one and yet three at the same time and in the same sence?
If this is the question, then the answer is simple, He cannot. This question however misrepresents the Trinity. According to the doctorine of the Trinity, (and scripture) God is not both three and yet one in the same sence. Rather He is One in Nature or Essence, and three in a different sence, He is three persons, the Father, Son and Spirit.
Three persons and yet one Nature or essence is no more a contradiction than three sides to one Triangle or three leaves to one Shamrock. God has one what(nature) with three whos(persons). How this is possible is a mystery(1 timothy 3:16) but not a contradiction. To be a contradiction and thus false the Trinity would have to suggest that God is one nature and yet three natures, or that God is one person and yet three persons. This is not what the Trinity teaches.
You bring up John 8:24, excellent, we all agree that Jesus is indeed who He said He was. Jesus claimed to be both God John 10:30-33 and the Son of God John 10:36-38.
PB you should consider John 8:13-18 to get the context but especially "In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
Jesus and the Father are clearly disinct but this does not mean there is more than One God. The trinity is the doctorine which allows this, how do you interpret John 8:13-18 if the trinity is false?
MDM
PB.
This is a brilliant post!
If any one can not see that Jesus is the only true God, then I am speechless!
katie,
Your question,
how can God be His own son?
If Jesus is the son of another person? then Jesus is not God! it's that simple.
So let Jesus answer you the question.
Mat.22:42-46
What do you think about the Christ?
Whose son is he?
"the son of David" they replied.
Jesus said to them,
How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'?
For he says,
"The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."
If then David calls him 'Lord',
how can he be his son?"
No one could say a word in reply.
paul g,
you seem to be using Mat 22:42-46 to suggest that Jesus is NOT the Son of God.
Is this correct?
If it is then you are calling Jesus a liar as He even refers to Himself as the Son of God. Even if not explicitly the pharisees point this out for us in John 10:36-38.
As to Mat 22:42-46 this is even a Trinitarian verse, and yet you use it to suggest the Trinity is false?
Jesus is quoting from Psalm 110. I'll get back to this in a moment.
"How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'?
For he says,
"The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."
Jesus says David is "speaking by the Spirit" (a phrase you are fond of) which indicates he is speaking the truth of God, "The Lord said to my Lord" - not The Lord said to Himself but THE LORD (the Father) said to MY LORD (the Messiah/Jesus). This does not make sence if God was speaking to Himself because how can God sit at His own right hand? Even though the sitting here is refering to authority it is still authority given to Jesus by the Father. Also how can God say (if He is not triune) "until I put your enemies under your feet" shouldn't He have said I will put MY enemies under MY feet David was speaking by the Spirit when he said these things.
Back to Psalm 110:1 here there is an iteresting difference in the Hebrew.
"The LORD says to my Lord" notice the capitalization of the first LORD. Why is this you may ask? Because the two words both translated as Lord in this passage are different!
The LORD is translated from hwhy or Yahovah which is Jehovah = "the existing One"
the proper Hebrew name of the one true God.
The second of which is ynd) or 'Adonay which is a title "my lord" or "lord" either of men or of God. Now this is a title obviously refering to Jesus the Messiah.
I am not suggesting that Jesus is not God or that there is more than one God. Simply that this verse clearly demonstrates a relationship between Jesus and the Father an interaction which cannot exist in an individual as humans visualise an individual. God is a tri-unity, He is Three in One, a Trinity.
MDM
PB and paul g,
In denying the Trinity could you also address Ephesians 1:3-14 for me?
I would be very interested to read how you interpret this passage if the Trinity is false.
MDM
Katie:
The sole premise of this post:
"Jesus is the word who was with God. This is "God the Father"
Can you agree with this premise?
Magi:
In John 8:24 I said: "Jesus was talking about the Father". After reading through your comments I can not see if you believe this or not?
Witness was dealt with in the post please read it again taking notice of the scriptures "but on him that sent me" && "but he that sent me is true". This post explains your witness question.
Although I appreciate when you stick on topic here is Eph 1:3-14 simply:
The one God and Father who is Spirit became flesh. (God with us) And through the one body of Jesus we have all our spiritual blessings and graces for He died that we might have life.
To this day when the Son is revealed in those whom he chose they are born of the Spirit for the Son comes to us by the Spirit not flesh which is the guarantee that we are His and will never perish.
This is the mystery "Christ in us the hope of glory" or "The Holy Spirit who is our deposit"
"The Lord said to my Lord"
So if Jesus is Lord and the Father is Lord and the Father is not talking to Himself how many Lords are there?
Your answer should be to the point and short.
That is exactly the contradiction which the doctorine of the Trinity clears up. Jesus and the Father are clearly and distinctly different. Yet there is only One God. A Tri-unity. This is not a matter of 1+1+1=3. God cannot be represented as simply 1. Humans are 1, God is infinite.
Lets represent the single God, who is infinite, as infinity.
Now Infinity + Infinity + Infinity = Infinity.
And Infinity/3 = Infinity.
Jesus is God.
The Father is God.
The Spirit is God.
Jesus is not the Father or the Spirit.
The Father is not Jesus or the Spirit.
The Spirit is not Jesus or the Father.
There is only 1 God.
David was speaking in the Spirit and thus was speaking in truth when He said "The LORD (The Father/ Jehovah) said to my Lord (Adonai / Messiah / Jesus)"
The Father spoke to Jesus indicating a separateness.
THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD WHO IS TRIUNE.
MDM
You have not addressed the whitness question at all, you are suggesting that in fact Jesus the Father and The Spirit are all one and are never separate and as such there cannot be two whitnesses as Jesus claims with "In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." - John 8: 17-18
"but on him that sent me" & "but he that sent me is true".
The common phrase is "Him that sent Me" not him that sent himself or I that sent me.
The Father sent Jesus to us. Jesus submitted to the Father in the Garden before the crucifixion. The Father and Jesus sent The Spirit.
Are you suggesting the scripture is wrong?
Are you suggesting these scriptures should have been written differently?
If not the we are to take the scriptures at what they say and thus The father, Spirit and Jesus are all distinctly separate but all are the One true God. Only the Trinity allows this and any other interpretation of the Godhead is false and is not found in scripture, but rather in the minds of men who misread scripture.
MDM
This issue is obviously not going to be resolved.
PB you should prayerfully consider the scriptures and your position of Oneness Modalism.
I will not comment again on this post concerning the Trinity.
I will continue to read your writing here at Puritan Belief and will resume commenting when you are discussing fruitful and truthful things.
The Trinity is truth and oneness/modalist theology is not.
MDM
Have you ever noticed that before the Fall in Gen. 3, after God had created Man "in His image" in Gen. 1, God pronounced of Man, "it is not good that Man shall be alone" in Gen. 2:18? Now why was it "not good" that Man shall be alone? And why does Gen. 1:27 read, "So God created Man in His own image, in the image of God he created Him; male and female He created them"? I propose that the reason for God's statement in Gen. 2:18 is found in the verse after that which is the subject of this post- in John 1:2- which says of the Word, "He was with God in the beginning". Essential to God's nature is the fact that "God is love" (I Jn. 4:16). The Bible teaches that the one and only God has existed eternally in a state of love. Though He preexisted all of creation, He was never alone, for there has always been a real communion between Persons within the Godhead. This is revealed in John 1:2 and in John 17:5 in which Jesus speaks to the Father concerning a relationship they shared "before the world existed." So our loving God is singular, but He has never been alone. Therefore, when He decided to create image-bearers it was necessary that Man not be alone, but rather he must be joined to another- the Woman- who is different in physiology and who has a different role in the created order, but who is also said to be made in God's image.
Failing to accept the truth that God is one and that He has always existed in a relationship between real persons, one is doomed to have a sub-biblical understanding of the nature of God and the nature of Man as well.
Magi:
You still haven't answered questions or address the actual posts. You set up questions for yourself to argue against and still in your multitude of words you haven't answered even ONE of the points I bought out. The same old 1+1+1 doesn't = 3 and 1/3+1/3+1/3 doesn't equal 1. I thought forsure you would bring out 1*1*1=1. However this must be the 6th time you have said you won't comment on this topic but still do. Which is a good sign :)
Elessi:
saw the obvious here. That Jesus can not be the Son of David in that he is not the Son of SOMEONE ELSE. Jesus alone is the Father of David for John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". How then can he be called his Son?
Jesus who is Lord became flesh and was CALLED Son of the most high God. Born of the Holy Spirit and Jesus calls the Holy Spirit his Father. And scripture tells us the LORD IS THE SPIRIT. So simple yet Roman Catholocism has blinded so many of the joy that is in Jesus alone. Embracing Jesus alone. "Solus Christus" or "In Christ alone"
ajlin
Good old C.S Lewis hey "God is love proves the trinity" :)
Firstly lets state the facts: God created man in his own image and he created one man who has Spirit, Soul and Body like his own image which is Spirit, Soul, Body (JESUS)
God exists in and of Himself and has no need for another. Yet the trinity creates another 2 for men to worship who are not Jesus thus they commit spiritual adultery and is why Roman Catholocism is referred to The Whore of Babylon in Revelations. Why partake in her sins?
When our God and Father of all thought of Jesus on the cross. He thought of Himself becoming flesh and dying on the cross. He didn't get some other person to do the Job which only He could do.
The Old God is Love proves the trinity is stretching plain scripture at best and trying to show that when man and women join in marriage and become "one flesh" doesn't prove that three men all called God are in fact one God but still separate.
Scripture never uses the phrases "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" but says:
"Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
Col 3:11 says: but Christ is all and in all
Jesus who is ONE MAN, has ONE BODY, has ONE SPIRIT, IS ONE GOD. Is either the one God and Father of all or he is no GOD AT ALL and should not be worshipped for I believe:
Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Jesus who is my ONE LORD OF LORDS demands that I worship ONLY HIM for he is jealous. Why would any true believer want to arouse the Lords jealousy?
Why not come out of Roman Catholicism which is the Whore of Babylon because she worships Jesus plus another 2 people who are not Jesus. Scripture says the WHOLE WORLD has gone after her.
Why not really hold the saying: "Solus Christus" "In Christ Alone". You will lose all your friends however it is better to please Jesus then man.
The doctrine of the Trinity is complex for the human mind to comprehend. The Bible teaches that there is one God. The New Testament clearly teach three personal agents in the godhead at the baptism of Jesus. Jesus, in his last words before his ascension, told his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three persons of the Godhead have distinct roles in the salvation of fallen sinners. God, the Father, from all eternity predestined sinners for salvation….. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— (Ephesians 1:4-5). Jesus Christ, from all eternity, redeemed sinners by paying their sin debt….for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,……(Romans 3:23-25). God, the Holy Spirit, quickens and makes spiritually dead sinners alive so they can respond to Jesus…..Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' (John 3:5-7) (Also see Titus 3:5-7). J.I. Packer, in Concise Theology, says the following about two common heresies concerning the Trinity: They are not three roles played by one person (that is modalism), nor are they three gods in a cluster (that is tritheism). All non-Trinitarian formulations of the Christian message are, by biblical standards, inadequate and fundamentally false and will naturally tend to pull Christian lives out of shape.
JazzyCat:
Many thanks for the comment. This post no where mentions trinity but it seems the scriptures seem to make everyone revert back to their favourite verses about the trinity.
What did you think about how I dealt with this verse:
"But when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is."
Let me deal with a few of your points. If I miss one you would like me to comment on please ask:
Baptism:
Jesus never said to baptise into the 3 people of the trinity Father, Son, Holy Spirit. But into the NAME of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Please read how in every baptism in scripture the disciples interpreted this verse (Acts 2:38,Acts 8:12,Acts 8:16,Acts 19:4,Acts 19:5,Rom 6:3)
Ephesians 1:4-5 && Romans 3:23-25
I like what you wrote
All Non-Trinitarians Formulas are false:
This is why there is no need for a formula but for "Solus Christus" "In Christ alone"
Jazzy Cat without thinking what does any man say I want to ask you something for you to ask your Heavenly Father.
When you worship Jesus and praise His name in your room with the door closed. When you are praising Jesus in Spirit and in Truth. Do you not know in your heart of hearts that you are worshipping the Father Himself?
Best Regards
In proclaiming the Gospel to my friend Rodson who had been exposed to the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses (and thus had developed Arian beliefs), it was necessary for me to defend the doctrine of the Trinity. Rodson, though persuaded by the Gospel that I proclaimed, had honest questions about passages of Scripture which teach a distinction between Jesus and God. These passages abound in the Gospel accounts, where Jesus is referred to as the Son of God ("how can God be His own Son?"), where Jesus is referred to as being begotten by God ("how can God beget God?"), where Jesus prays to the Father ("how can God pray to God?"), and where Jesus cries out, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" ("how can God forsake God?"). In refuting Arianism, my first duty was to proclaim the deity of Christ, a fact of Scripture attested to by passages such as John 1:1, Rev. 1:8, etc., then I had to speak more about the relationship within the Godhead, referencing verses such as Psalm 110:1. In speaking of the verse spoken by Jesus on the Cross, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" I was able to turn the conversation back to the heart of the Gospel, what the Apostle called "the message of the Cross", that Christ died as an act of propitiation- bearing our sins before the righteousness of God and receiving the wrath that we were due.
But still Rodson had trouble believing in the deity of Christ due not so much to the proof-texts put forth by the JWs, but to the fact that he could not completely understand the Trinity. My reply to him was that if we could search out and completely know everything about God, if we could 'place Him under a microscope', then He wouldn't really be worth our worship. God is infinite, and so there will always be more to who He is than we can fully understand- we must simply accept the clear teaching of Scripture.
I asked Rodson if he believed that Scripture taught that Jesus was indeed God and the Son of God, then- when he said "yes"- I asked if he believed that he deserved the wrath of God againt his sin. Rodson did, and I could tell that he was serious about his confession. Then I asked him if he wished to trust in Jesus alone as the perfect sacrifice for sin on his behalf. Rodson did, and that night he cried out to God for mercy through His Son, Jesus Christ.
Why am I relating all of this in the current comment thread? It is because anyone who has had experience in proclaiming the Gospel to those involved in cults knows the importance of understanding what the Bible says about the doctrine of the Trinity. If I did not understand both the unity of God and the real peronal relationship existing between the Father and the Son, then I would have been either entirely stumped by the questions with which I was presented, or I would have been reduced to basically asserting that Jesus was engaging in some sort of elaborate charade. In the current discussion, the Unitarian position being proclaimed is obscuring the Gospel message, for crucial Bible passages concerning God's work (such as Eph. 1:3-14) are being stripped of their full meaning. Other passages (John 17:5 comes to mind) are being systematically ignored, while other Scriptures (and here I indicate paul g's past abuse of II Cor. 11:2) are being added to.
The doctrine of the Trinity- one God in a real relationship of real persons- is not something that can be comprehended by human reason. It is not a teaching that could ever have been invented by people at all. Rather, for this teaching we are entirely dependent upon special revelation- God's Word- which clearly proclaims Jesus as having been with the Father- "in [His] own presence- before the world existed.
That we cannot fully comprehend these things should come as no surprise, as the Apostle proclaims:
"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33-34 ESV)
This teaching should promote humility and faith as we acknowledge our utter dependence upon God for an understanding of even the most basic aspects of His character.
And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(Mat 3:17)
Was Jesus throwing His voice to heaven to be heard by John?
Johnnie Burgess
In relation to the voice and the dove from heaven. How do you understand this verse:
John 6:12 talking about the Father:
"Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape"
Ajlin:
In relation to the JW, I want to hear that the JW is no longer Jehovas witness who is another person then Jesus but has now become a witness to Jesus ALONE (singular)
Jesus speaking:
"ye shall be witnesses unto ME both in Jerusalem and all Judea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8)
I loved this bit:
God's Word- which clearly proclaims Jesus as having been with the Father- "in [His] own presence- before the world existed.
If you believe that Jesus was with the Father then you must also believe that Jesus was the Father. Do you only believe half of John 1:1 or all of John 1:1? Can you complete your sentence and say that Jesus WAS THE FATHER
The doctrine of God is not a mystery it has been revealed to all those whom the Lord Jesus chooses by His Spirit. If it is a mystery you really should ask the Lord to reveal it to you so that it is no longer a mystery. Will he give you a snake if you ask for bread? Especially if this bread is Jesus Himself :)
We can speak about any of the verse you like lets go one at a time. You choose.
The Deacon:
Yes the one name of our wonderful Lord and God is Jesus Christ.
May I ask whose roll was it to raise Jesus from the dead Father, Sons or Holy Spirits?
re: "If you believe that Jesus was with the Father then you must also believe that Jesus was the Father. Do you only believe half of John 1:1 or all of John 1:1? Can you complete your sentence and say that Jesus WAS THE FATHER"
I believe John 1:1, which does not say that Jesus was the Father, but rather that the Word was God and was with God. It is John 17:5 in which Jesus speaks to the Father of the glory He shared with Him before the world began. I believe that the words of Scripture are important and that there is a reason that John 1:1 uses the Word/God identification and distinction rather than employing the terms of Father and Son- Scripture guards against the very kind of confusion that you seem determined to promote.
ajlin:
For the first half of John 1:1 you use John 17:5 as backup to say Jesus was most certainly with the Father:
You say correctly:
"...proclaims Jesus as having been with the Father"
Then when I asked you if you believe the second half of the verse you say
"I believe John 1:1, which does not say that Jesus was the Father"
----------------------------
Corinthians tells us:
But to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ
Thomas had a revelation I would love for you to have about the above verse:
John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God"
Joh 6:12 And when they were filled, He said to His disciples, Gather up the fragments left over, so that nothing is lost.
I dont know where you got the verse you got for John 6:12.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me.
Jesus said the Father sent Him. Did He send Himself?
Johnnie Burgess Jr
The verse is John 5:37 .. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
In relation to the voice and the dove from heaven. (already happened by this time) How do you understand this verse?
The Father sent Him
This is figurative for God Himself becoming flesh. God Became a man and the fullness of deity was to dwell bodily in this Man Jesus Christ.
Joh 8:17 It is also written in your Law that the testimony of two men is true.
Joh 8:18 I am one who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness concerning Me.
Here Jesus is saying there is 2 witness for him. One being Himself and the second being the Father. Now if Jesus is both did he lie?
In relation to the voice and the dove from heaven. (already happened by this time) How do you understand this verse?
He is talking about the jews that did not believe in Him.
Johnnie Burgess
Witness:
Very Good question. Jesus previously points out that it is written in your own law that there must be 2 witnesses.
Now for Jesus not to be a liar we must ask this question: Is it ever written that you can be one of your own witnesses? Obviously not.
Therefore there must be a clause or exception otherwise Jesus is lying when he said he came to fullfill the law.
If Jesus is being one of the 2 witnesses for Himself then his testimony is not valid according to Moses.
Can you find in scripture the ONE exception where you can be your own witness?
Voice:
You rightly say that because the Jews did not believe they had not either heard the Fathers voice or seen his form.
Which begs the question if they did believe would they hear the Fathers voice and see his form when they are talking to Jesus?
John did believe that is why he heard the Fathers voice and saw the Holy Spirit as a dove. It was a sign proving who Jesus was
Johnnie Burgess Jr
I notice you have skipped the witness question.
To give you the answer: Yes there is one exception to this rule of the witness and it is found in the scripture.
Hebrews 6:13
"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself"
God is the only one who can be HIS own witness. Because Jesus was fully man and fully God he could be His own witness both in the flesh (I am my own witness) and in the Spirit.(My Father testifies for me)
There are not 2 different people witnessing but ONE GOD Jesus Christ. The only one who can sware by HIMSELF and be HIS OWN witness.
Voice
The truth is that the voice of the Father and embodiment of the Spirit was the one who was speaking to the unbelieving Wise Men. The body of Jesus is the body of the Father, The voice of Jesus is the voice of the Father. They could not see the Father nor hear his voice because "Veiled in flesh the Godhead see Jesus our emmanual"
To see Jesus you must believe what he said concerning the Father:
Unless you believe that I am he you will surely die in your sin.
Those who know the Father look at Jesus and say this to their heavenly Father:
"From now on I know YOU and have seen YOU" (John 14:7)
Again I cannot stay out of the debate.
I hope you dont mind PB.
Nowhere in scripture does Jesus say "I do not need another whitness because I am God." Rather Jesus does say " I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
The Father is Jesus' OTHER whitness, to state otherwise is to add or subtract from scripture. The Scripture is the inspired Word of God, meaning it is in fact the Word of God Himself. In His inspired and infallable Word Jesus refers to His Father as OTHER signifying that Jesus was certain that He Himself was not the Father since the Father is OTHER than Jesus.
MDM
Welcome back Magi :)
Listen to what I did say:
There are not 2 different people witnessing but ONE GOD Jesus Christ. The only one who can sware by HIMSELF and be HIS OWN witness.
Jesus can only be his own witness if he is God. Which is why He said "I am my own witness". There is only every one person who has ever said this before and that is the one who made the Law Himself.
However he doesn't just witness in the flesh he witnesses as the God of heaven. For there is One God the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.
"For there is One God the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ."
Then why the debate?
In tha above statement you have clearly drawn distintion between Jesus and His Father.
2 persons and yet 1 God.
If we include the Holy Spirit, who is definately God aswell as we learn from scripture then we have 3 'persons' in 1 God.
MDM
Jesus is this God. The Holy Spirit is this God.
For there is ONE God the Father.
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me — just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep."
- John 10:14-15
Jesus says He knows His sheep and they know HIm just as He knows the Father and the Father knows Jesus.
Since we clearly are not Jesus, as we are His sheep, but we know Him for He is our shepherd. This follws then that since our relationship with Jesus is likened to His relationship to the Father that we have two options.
1. Jesus is a lier. (This is not true)
2. Jesus is distinct from the Father just as we are distinct from Jesus.
You forgot the option that is true:
3. "I and the Father are one" Jn 10:30
You are asking the wrong question about this verse you should be asking:
How does Jesus know me and I know Jesus?
Answer this correctly and you will understand "I and the Father are one"
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."
- John 14:9-11
"I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith."
- Ephesians 3:16-17
The Spirit of Jesus dwells within me just as the Father is within Christ. This is the same with you, I would assume, as you are a christian also.
However, I am not Jesus just as Jesus is not the Father.
"All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."
- 1 Corinthians 12:11-13
When we are born again we become part of the body of Christ so in this sence we are One with Christ but still we do not each become Jesus.
"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."
- Ephesians 5:31-32
but "Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."
- Ephesians 5:24
So while we have been made one WITH Christ we are still to submit to Him, denoting a distinction from.
Also while Jesus says "I and the Father are one" He is speaking in the same figure as when He says a man and a wife become one. This is clearly seen through His submission to the Father just as He commands wives to submit to their husbands and the Church is to submit to Christ.
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
- Luke 22:42
MDM
Magi:
Q. Does scripture ever talk about the Son marrying his Father?
A. NEVER this is incest, sodomy and an abomination.
It is a disgrace to compare a Father and Son becoming one like a man and a woman becoming one flesh. How disgusting.
Jesus who is a "MAN" calls his Church his bride hence the church is "SHE" and as the virgin bride "SHE" is to love only Jesus for he is a faithful husband dying only for her. This is why the verse says: "but I am talking about Christ and the church." It never even hints about a Son and His Father getting married and becoming one like a husband and wife.
Of course you haven't even started on the threesome-theology which is why the catholic church who created this trinity is called the whore of Babylon in Revelations.
PB,
you clearly misread what I said and have created an arguement I never said in order to rebutt my comment.
Never did I say Jesus marries the Father, where this notion came to you is a mystery...
When the church is married to Christ is it in a "One Flesh" and literally sexual way?
No.
We become one with Christ in spirit and purpose, not in any actual physical way.
It is called figurative language. A device to describe something using an unrelated example.
As to the Catholic Church creating the Trinity. Perhaps you should examine some historical sources and not just your own opinion when discussing historical matters you obviously do not know about.
MDM
What I love about blogger is that you can look back and actually see what was said:
"Also while Jesus says "I and the Father are one" He is speaking in the same figure as when He says a man and a wife become one."
so Ephesians 5:24 means the church is sexually active with Christ?
you really need to pay attention to what people write PB, instead of fabricating a postition to make it easier for you to 'win'.
perhaps you could go back and read the entire comment.
eg. once you said "there are 2 gods by definition."
This statement is clearly not representing what you said as it is only a small portion of the entire thought pattern.
MDM
Magi:
Emotions:
I try not to address peoples emotions but since I do appreciate your willingness to continue talking on this topic and your last comments have been purely emotional I will try. I am not good at sorting out emotional conflict in person let alone on a computer when words can appear harsh depending on what mood the person is in when they read them.
I read your comment well over 10 times. 8 times by myself then 1 time each aloud to 2 friends. From the time I first read it until the time I commented, well over 8 hours went by. Not to mention my comment and the amount of words I deleted to get the comment concise and to the point.
Context
Readers can look back at exactly what you said so there is no need to continually worry about context and how you think myself and others are taking your words out of context. Your comment in it's fullness is the same and people usually read it completely before they read a response. So context is really a none-issue on blogger. Leave it to the reader to decide or if what you said is the truth it will stand no matter what argument is bought against it.
The Truth: Long ago the Lord showed me that when you lift up Jesus to the highest position no man can tear Him down. It may be a good time to ask yourself "Am I lifting Jesus up to the very highest position or have I replaced him with some other person or doctrine"
--------- Back to the Topic ------------
The bible says: "I have promised you to ONE husband Jesus Christ as pure virgins." (2 Cor 11:2)
Ephesians 5:23-24 shows Christ marrying the church in a spiritual sense comparing it closely to an earthly marriage.
Most trinitarians like to join "two become one flesh" with "I and the Father are one" even though one is from John and the other Ephesians and they are on two different topics. One comparing a earthly marriage to a spiritual marriage and the other luckily NOT but rather how Jesus is the Father. (From now on you know Him and have seen Him)
Here is my point on two becoming one, simply and one last time:
Instead of a pure virgin having one male lover and husband Jesus Christ. The trinitarian who is not a virgin has 3 male lovers (three-some lover or Tri-lover)
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Instead of trying to see scripture in three distinct parts, persons or modes. "Christ is all and in all" Why not ask Jesus to show you Himself as one lover in every verse and every page of HisStory.
how often do you revise you statements PB, this one has changed...
now I have been emotional in my comments, surely you are an intuitive man PB as where is there an 'emotional' comment?
OH you imagine it to discount anything another says...
MDM
"Am I lifting Jesus up to the very highest position or have I replaced him with some other person or doctrine" is a question every christian should ask of themselves as there are many subtle ways the devil attempts to steal the elect and make them turn from the One true living God.
I also have a question for you to consider PB. You do not need to answer as it is a personal one which you need to address yourself.
"How many Christians need to be fundamentally opposed to one's doctorine before one asks, "I wonder if it is me that is wrong?"
The entire body of Christ believe one thing, the majority of the Church founders, fathers, and great theologians included, yet you hold to an opposing doctorine. How much scriptural evidence, and how many faithful brothers in christ need to be presented to you before you question your postition?
I know you believe wholeheartedly that you are correct in your oneness/modalist beliefs so treat the above as hypothetical questions so you do not approach them from a biased standpoint.
Remember though that we are not talking about pagans, but christians who have the Spirit of God dwelling within them and have seen His light to illuminate the truth.
MDM
Magi:
Since you didn't answer my question I will answer it for any readers.
The Trinity has Jesus as second in line or the Second Person of the trinity. Jesus is not on the highest throne of God in this religion.
I am against this religion called catholicism and any religion that does not exalt the superlative excellence or supremacy of Jesus Christ and NO OTHER which is spiritual adultery.
"There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it" Rev 22:3
Now onto your question which asked me to convert to the wisdom of Men. My answer which I have told you many times now is the same:
If I was the only man in the world who believed that Jesus is the ONLY one true God of Heaven and there is no other God then Jesus. I would find comfort in Jesus and not every other man who believes in a pagan 3 person God. And of course these marvelous founders of your doctrine murdered thousands upon thousands of saints who graciously would never recant from having Jesus as Lord of Lords.
Editing Comments
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