They Never Told Me This In Church
- A call to read the bible with new eyesAuthor: Greg S Deuble (Published 2006) Originally From Toowoomba QLD Australia
Book Review:
This book caught my attention firstly because of the title and secondly because of its chapter headings:
1. Another Cover-Up
2. Another World
3. Another God
4. Another Lord
5. Another Jesus
6. Another Spirit
Another Gospel
The punch behind this book is to tell you that you need to read the bible through "Hebrew Eyes" which would be your first mistake. As a side note I did enjoy his arguments for there being only one God from the Old Testament. Here is a quick look from the chapter "Another God"
"...their argument from the plural ending on elohim dates from around 1,000 AD. It is relatively recent invention. What R.A Torrey and the many who use this argument fail to tell us is that elohim is used in various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. As we pointed out in the previous chapter elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent....."
He then goes on to show that there are only 4 mentions of God with elohim in this manner and 11,000 other mentions where it is obviously Singular or one Person as God.
The Biggest Error of this Book
Simply put Jesus is demoted, he is simply a man. This man would be a Unitarian because he denies the full deity of Jesus and has one God the Father who is not Jesus. The Father is the only God and John 17:3 is used as many JW's (He is not a JW by the way) before him have done to make Jesus the Son of [someone else who is] God. By going back to the Hebrew and Greek he disproves verses like "My Lord and My God" said by Thomas or Jesus being worshiped or Jesus as the great I AM or Emmanuel (God with us) until Jesus is just a messenger.
Using the Measuring Stick:
You can't read the bible through "Hebrew Eyes" only "Spiritual Eyes" For the Spirit He has one purpose and that is to exalt Jesus which this book didn't do. Thus I know Hebrew Eyes don't work. Like the trinity it demoted Jesus and takes him off the highest and most exalted throne where only Jesus can sit.
If Jesus isn't the one and only God of the bible then I would want to have this other God or other person tell me that I am saved not some messenger they call Jesus.
To the born again Christian: There is no one greater then Jesus and when you come to Him there is no more looking and no more labour for you came to the Father Himself, the Almighty.
Look it up in your bible because it's in Red:
Most certainly Jesus says in big bold letters so you take note:
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
You can try and say that this is the Father talking as Greg S Deuble did but it is obvious in the context that it is Jesus speaking and every good bible translation I know of gets this right. However don't take my word for it you need to hear from the creator of the Universe if Jesus really did create you or if your creator is someone else other then Jesus.
Did He who made the mouth can He not speak?
More Info:
Restoration Fellowship - The group Mr Deuble is associated with.
Add Your Comment(35)
They Never Told Me This In ChurchPosted by Correy Saturday, June 17, 2006
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
35 Comments:
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
The only need for 'hebrew eyes' when looking at the scriptures would be to help establish context for passages. Knowing Hebrew will not give you life though, life is only found in Jesus. The pharisees knew the scriptures and knew hebrew, their own language very well, yet they missed Jesus and missed life because of it.
MDM
I have not read the book so I cant totally know what he has written. From your assessment of him though he sounds pretty dodgy, and if he has no understanding of who Jesus was and is, our Living, Creator, Lord, Saviour and God.
"Simply put Jesus is demoted, he is simply a man." Serious error with eternal consequences!
I do not understand however, PB that you can plainly see and reveal to those who have not yet read /will not ever read his book how incorrect mr Deuble's understanding of Jesus is, and then side with mr deuble against the Trinity. It seems that if one does not know about Jesus, believing Him to be only a man, then it would follow that mr Deuble doesn't really know who God is at all. One should not agree with a man who does not know God and take this mans understanding of who God is.
I will admit that I had seen this book recently on the shelf of my work and was interested, now I know it would be better not to bother.
MDM
axinar,
It seems to me that you don't know God, or His salvation.
Jesus said if you do not know God you will die in your sins. John 8:24
You have to make your calling and election shore. 2 Pet. 1:10
Magi:
Likewise using the same measure you use against Mr Deuble.
Should I disregard everything you say even if true if I was to think you don't understand who God is?
Where according to scripture do I say or aknowledge that Jesus is not God?
No where. Not only is He the Son of God, but Jesus is God. This is proclaimed all through scripture.
Anything you find that I say to be unscriptural, you should cirtainly disregard. My words will not give life, only the Word of the Lord has such Power and Truth. I would also ask of you the courtesy though of letting me know if I am ever saying something contrary to Scripture, for if that happened it would be a lie and I would need correction as per 2 Timothy 3:16-17
MDM
modern day magi,
Is Jesus Christ the Son of another person. ??
Please no long explanation.
Jesus is refered to as the Son of God 47 times in the KJV, 41 times in the NIV, 44 times in the NLT, 43 times in the NASB etc.
so the translations are in agreement. The Bible says Jesus is the Son of God.
I tend to agree with scripture since it is the Word of God and all.
So our options are
1. Yes Jesus is the Son of God as scripture tells us clearly.
2. No Jesus is not the Son of God and scripture is a load of dicietful rubbish.
Which answer do you chose paul g?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
paul g,
if you are interested in my iunderstanding and belief in the Trinity as the true and correct understanding of God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit and scripture feel free to read The Trinity: False polytheism or Correct doctorine? and What is the Doctrine of the Trinity?
I do not want to revisit the issue of the Trinity here. It is True that God is triune, any other understanding is false and shows a lack of biblical insight and understanding.
MDM
modern day magi,
The question was not whether Jesus is called the Son of God or not.
Jesus always calls Himself the son of man.
(Suppose another question.)
Since Jesus is the Son, as is clearly seen in scripture, then there must also be a Father, who is also seen clearly through scripture.
Before you claim I am a polytheist though, the Trinity teaches there are Three which are One God, not three Gods. Not a Triad as with many pagan religions where there were three gods working together, but a tri-unity Father, Son and Spirit. Distinct and yet One God. It makes sence that the false religions use Triads to represent their gods as when you copy something you make it more simple. The Trinity is a difficult concept for humans to understand and thus when the pagans copied God and made a mockery of Him, they intorduced triads, three separate gods in a team. This is a much more simple idea to comprehend and shows how the false religions actually evolved from the Truth which God revealed to His Creation and to Adam and Noah, from who al men and women are decendants.
MDM
modern day magi,
Know for sure!
Three can never be one,
a plural can never be a singular.
Why do you believe this lie?
I find it interesting how every question that was asked to you Magi you interpreted that question to mean something totally different to what was asked.
The question with the bible is whose interpretation do you trust. Your own? An even bigger Magi's?
Trinitarians will tell you that God is a plural. Citing Elohim as has happened so many times on this blog by yourself and others. However just by reading the bible it is pretty easy to tell that when God is mentioned it is done in a Singular fashion 99.99% of the time. And the strawman of Elohim is very easy to see.
"eg: Worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only"
"God" is a singular here and so is "Him". No plurals can be found.
Anyone without a presupposition can tell you that this is singular. Yet because you have a presupposition that God is 3 and 1 you read all of these singular verses to mean 3 and 1.
=============================
You need to ask 1 of 2 questions to yourself.
1. Does my understanding of God exalt Jesus? (Measuring stick)
2. Did I get my understanding from a man made doctrine or from Jesus who is inside me. A good way to check is to repeat number 1.
paul g
you said "Three can never be one,
a plural can never be a singular"
why not is not all things possible for God...I often hear on this blog how God delights in confounding the wise...could it not be that God is bigger than your understanding and is able to do all things as is clear in the word!
Katie:
If all things are possible then God the Father could become flesh true?
PB, perhaps you could rephrase the questions so I do not misunderstand?
Cirtainly almost all things are 'possible' for God (He can not lie, Titus 1:1-3) but that does not mean He does all things. Where in scripture does it say the Father became flesh?
The Bible says that "In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the begining...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." - John 1:1-2, 14
The repeated section is obviously done to draw attention to it. The Word [Jesus] was WITH God, the scripture does not say the Word was by Himslef, although you will read this into the verse. But thes passage also says that the Word WAS God. Hmmmm.... what doctorine utilses BOTH of these statements in Scripture?
Oneness theology does not, it ignores the repeated section that the Word was WITH God.
Polytheism does not, it ignores that the Word WAS God.
Trinity doctorine does, the Trinity afirms that while there is only One God, that God is tri-une, Father, Son and Spirit as three distinct 'persons' (an unfortunate term but you can't describe the infinite correctly with finite language) as One God.
Did the Father become flesh?
Do you read scripture for what it says, or do you place what you believe into the scriptures?
Which God was Jesus with, if not God the Father?
Your answer should be less then 3 words
I have just taken the time to read "They Never Told Me This In Church" - It is not an afternoon at the beach reading; however, it is a very interesting read that I would recommend for anyone who believes that Jesus is God and for anyone who believes that Jesus is not God.
Seeking to understand the Scriptures with Truth and LOVE should be our goal - not to defend whatever we grew up believing.
Question: Which sacrifice is greater? For God to come to earth as flesh and die for our sins
or
For God to sacrifice His ONLY Begotten Son for our sins?
Which is easier when your child is sick? To watch your child die, or die in place of your child?
Nothing is worse than seeing your own child die. Nothing.
Uncle Buck says:
I read it and loved the book! The only difference I have with the author is that the KINGDOM OF YAHUWAH (God) is already here! In this age/eon it is the called out assembly (church if one must) and in the next age of Judgment Yahushua rules all!!!! I thoroughly recommend every serious student of scripture to read the book. It will only strengthen your faith it cannot harm your faith!
Uncle Buck in Australia
Isa 32:3 Then the eyes of those who see will not be blinded, And the ears of those whoJoh 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART hear will listen. 2Co 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
It is God that exalted Jesus the Messiah and is seated at THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER!
Jesus is the one true God who sits upon the throne as stated in its last mention in revelations.
Right hand is figurative for power as you know. There are not 3 thrones but one God and this God is Jesus Christ.
Any other God then Jesus Christ is a false God.
"They Never Told Me This In Church" is a great combination of so called "Church History", Who God is and Who Jesus the Messiah is and will be. Perhaps keeping an open mind until the end of the book for those who haven't read it.
I also recommend "The Doctrine Of The Trinity The Church's Self Inflicted Wound" and "Our Fathers Who Aren't In Heaven" both by Anthony Buzzard.
I no way does either Author demote Messiah Jesus. I suggest reading the Scripures and not "reading into" them! The O.T. and the N.T. make up a WHOLE Book and contain three covenants God has made
with Abraham, David and Jesus the Christ.
Do you believe that Jesus is the one true God found on every page of the Bible?
If you can't answer a straight resounding Yes to this it is clear that Jesus is demoted in your doctrine like it was in this book.
I am reading Greg Deuble's book and I don't get the impression is is saying Jesus is "just a man". He sees him as the Messiah, the second Adam, born of the Father, very special.
What I hear Greg saying is we have mistaken the messenger for the message.
The messenger pointed us to the father but we have insisted the messenger is the father (and the holy spirit) but is not the father nor the holy spirit but is one or three persons sharing one essence.
Is that like three men wearing one suit at the same time?
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You quoted Rev 1:8 showing Jesus is the beginning and the end (of the new order of things), yet only a couple verses earlier in Rev 1:6 John also wrote... "[Jesus] has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". I guess that makes clear why he cried out in anguish while dying on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!" The obvious conclusion one should draw from this is that Jesus has a God and is not God himself.
Having this understanding the scriptures become so clear to anyone. Even simple tough to understand scriptures now become so easily explained once you realize Christ as our lord and saviour and his relation to the one God. Try this verse...
1 Cor 15:27-28 - For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
I have read this book and I loved it. If you haven't don't take the word of others but make your own mind up. I think the book explores and exposes doctrines that were man made and have infiltrated our churches and our lives lessening the truth and power of the gospel ...When the book asks us to see through Hebrew eyes it is simply asking us as westerners to try and see how hebrews of that time thought and put those thoughts into words. Anyone who has travelled overseas and come into contact with other cultures knows we all don't see things the same way....
I don't believe the book demotes Jesus. In fact I find God's work even more wonderful. On the trinity. If Jesus were God and we are taught that God cannot fail, then Jesus couldn't fail and 'the temptation' wouldn't be a real temptation. But thank God that He, the second Adam didn't fail.
I believe Greg Deuble has looked for the truth and done a good job at uncovering it.
I heartily agree with those who say to read the book right through with an open mind. I have done - I got the Kindle version online.
There will always be those who are vocal about their own ideas and beliefs but have not done the research to even know where they ultimately got them from. I thank God that some people are prepared to do the "hard yards" of study.
Jesus showed two things very clearly:
1. He has one God - the LORD God of Israel.
2. He himself (Jesus) is subordinate to that LORD God who he describes as his Father in Heaven.
A Hebrew understanding of Scripture is more than just cultural context. The very meaning of words is at stake. Jesus was the Messiah - the Christ.
Let's get to know what was understood by that in Hebrew thought up till and including the time of Jesus and the Apostles. Jesus' own words in John 17:3 and Mark 12:28-34 would be a good refresher.
first learn what the christ is and then you will that if you are the christ you cannot be God neither can you be divine and this is all in the law.
Yeshua says here no less than four times his God therefore he is not God, and futhermore, the one who conquers will have written on them the name of his God and HIS NEW NAME
Rev 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar IN THE TEMPLE OF MY GOD. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him THE NAME OF MY GOD, and the name of the city OF MY GOD, the new Jerusalem, which comes down FROM MY GOD out of heaven, and MY OWN NEW NAME.ESV2011
the great God's name never changes it is always and will always be Yehovah, but Yeshua has a new name The lamb.
your misinterpretations of the Bible do not make the case.
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