Trinitarians can NOT say ‘JESUS is LORD!’
It is written in the Scripture (1 Cor. 12:3) that “No one can say ‘JESUS is LORD’ except by the Holy Spirit”.
And the Scripture can’t be broken.
It is obvious and natural that every devil and every human being with a voice is able to say that ‘Jesus is Lord’, even a Parrot can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ if you train them to say so, and certainly they don’t speak by the Holy Spirit.
Any man or woman must be born again by the Spirit of God (John 3:3) to be able to say ‘Jesus is Lord’, since the Spirit of Jesus has made His abode in them and by that Spirit they can and will say ‘JESUS is LORD’, meaning that Jesus Christ is the ‘LORD—GOD’ the Almighty the creator of heaven and earth, the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end and beside Him there is NO OTHER person who holds that title.
Trinitarians in all denominations CAN NOT say that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is LORD, since they all believe that Jesus is Lord with another person (the Father) who is also God, and of course the third person the (Holy Spirit) who also shares in the title of ‘LORD GOD’.
If there are three persons in one God, then by necessity all three persons must be Lord.
Test me in this;
In your next prayer meeting listen how they pray.
All Trinitarians pray to the first person the big God through the second person the little god Jesus.
They ask the big God in Jesus Name etc.
They pray to the big God whoever that might be because they don’t believe that Jesus is LORD, or the only big God of all creation.
The spirit they have received does not allow them to say that Jesus is that ‘LORD’.
The Holy Spirit has been given to testify, magnify and glorify ONLY Jesus Christ our Lord and God and no other person or identity and you must also testify to Jesus Christ, for you have been with Jesus from the beginning (John 15:26).
If you do NOT testify to Jesus alone, then you have not received the Holy Spirit and you are still in your sins and trespasses.
Any spirit who removes that glory and gives or ascribes it to another person or identity is NOT the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:11).
What do you think?
Have you noticed their dilemma in the prayer meetings?
Please let me hear your thoughts.
And the Scripture can’t be broken.
It is obvious and natural that every devil and every human being with a voice is able to say that ‘Jesus is Lord’, even a Parrot can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ if you train them to say so, and certainly they don’t speak by the Holy Spirit.
Any man or woman must be born again by the Spirit of God (John 3:3) to be able to say ‘Jesus is Lord’, since the Spirit of Jesus has made His abode in them and by that Spirit they can and will say ‘JESUS is LORD’, meaning that Jesus Christ is the ‘LORD—GOD’ the Almighty the creator of heaven and earth, the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end and beside Him there is NO OTHER person who holds that title.
Trinitarians in all denominations CAN NOT say that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is LORD, since they all believe that Jesus is Lord with another person (the Father) who is also God, and of course the third person the (Holy Spirit) who also shares in the title of ‘LORD GOD’.
If there are three persons in one God, then by necessity all three persons must be Lord.
Test me in this;
In your next prayer meeting listen how they pray.
All Trinitarians pray to the first person the big God through the second person the little god Jesus.
They ask the big God in Jesus Name etc.
They pray to the big God whoever that might be because they don’t believe that Jesus is LORD, or the only big God of all creation.
The spirit they have received does not allow them to say that Jesus is that ‘LORD’.
The Holy Spirit has been given to testify, magnify and glorify ONLY Jesus Christ our Lord and God and no other person or identity and you must also testify to Jesus Christ, for you have been with Jesus from the beginning (John 15:26).
If you do NOT testify to Jesus alone, then you have not received the Holy Spirit and you are still in your sins and trespasses.
Any spirit who removes that glory and gives or ascribes it to another person or identity is NOT the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father (Phil. 2:11).
What do you think?
Have you noticed their dilemma in the prayer meetings?
Please let me hear your thoughts.
Add Your Comment(154)
Trinitarians can NOT say ‘JESUS is LORD!’Posted by Paul G Saturday, March 05, 2011
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
154 Comments:
Colossians 2:9 - Go read your Bible.
Thanks Aaron for your comment, but you haven't given me much to work with, except that I should read my Bible properly.
I know the author of the Bible and He certainly is NOT three persons in one God but ONE person in ONE God Jesus Christ our Lord and beside Him there is no other.
(Col. 2:9+10)
"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, (10) and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority."
Aaron, please tell me; is Jesus Christ the HEAD and POWER and AUTHORITY over His Father?
Paul
Hmm! Difficult to answer that!
If Jesus is the Son, then it would be impossible for Him to be the 'HEAD', since the Father is ALWAYS the head over the Son and never the other way around.
But the Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus is the head over everybody and the completeness of God (Deity; Spirit, soul and body) (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is the Lord Jesus Christ and apart from Him there is no other.
I praise the Lord Jesus that He has hidden these things from the Trinitarians and revealed it to His little ones.
Paul
I only have a question for you that maybe you can explain as neatly as you would like the mystery of God to be easily explained. In Matthew 3:16-17 the Bible says that as Jesus was coming out of the water he (who, John or Jesus?) saw the Spirit descending like a dove and alighting on Jesus and in that same scene, while Jesus is standing there with the Spirit now on Him a voice spoke from heaven and said: "this is My Son,whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Please exposit this passage for us who are obviously lost in our trinitarian heresy. I could ask the same question about many passages but this one will suffice. The answer is that no one can really explain the unfathomable mystery of the Godhead. Neither can we deny numerous passages that show that God is One and yet He is also Three. Now since you have no revelation of this should I say you are not born again? That would be absurd. You are not saved because of your understanding of doctrine. You are saved purely by the grace of God on you who deserves only damnation. The evidence that you are saved is that you love God and obey Him. Yet even that not perfectly since we are all growing in love and holiness. John wrote a whole letter of tests to determine who a Christian is in 1 John yet there is not a single test in there about doctrinal controversies. I eargerly await your careful exposition of the passage in Matthew 3
Thanks Anonymous;
You rightly said that you are obviously lost in your Trinitarian deception; and since you are lost, you need again to turn back to the Lord Jesus Christ with all your heart.
It is not a good practice to put your lack and limitations of your understanding and revelation onto other men.
I fully understand those passages because I had been taught by the Lord Jesus and not by men.
Also I fully agree with you that we are not saved by the merit of our understanding any doctrine whatsoever, but by the unmerited grace of the Lord Jesus Christ alone.
You said;
"The evidence that you are saved is that you love God and obey Him."
Anonymous; that is NO evidence at all!
Since every Muslim, Mormon, Catholic and Jehovah Witness etc. they all love God and yet they are not saved and are on the broad road of destruction to hell.
The evidence of any man or woman's salvation is that they love the Lord Jesus Christ with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, which is the acceptable worship of Jesus Christ our Lord and no other person, spirit or identity.
The baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:15-17);
Jesus said, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." (v.16) As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and the he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lightning on him. (v.17) And a voice from heaven said, "this is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
John preached a baptism of repentance (Acts 19:5).
Since God is the Holy Spirit (John 4:24) and the Lord Jesus is the Holy Sprit (2 Cor. 3:17), therefore the Lord God the Almighty (1 John 5:20+Jude 8:25) who clothed Himself with flesh and became a man just like one of us (Emanuel= God with us) who never sinned and needed not to repent, but submitted Himself to the law of righteousness by baptism in water in order to fulfill all the law and righteousness required (Matt.3:15).
(Matt.3:16 + 17);
First of all you must believe that the Lord God the Almighty the Alpha and Omega was standing in the water just as I have said above.
'At that moment the heaven was opened'; now the heaven is the realm of the spirit which was opened to John just like it should be opened to you and me and every one who believes and looks to Jesus Christ the Lord.
John saw the Holy Spirit descending like a dove, and heard a voice from heaven (the realm of the spirit). That does not mean that the Holy Spirit is a dove or a bird or a third person and nither is the voice from heaven another person, that kind of thinking is absurd.
But rather it is metaphorically speaking to describe how the born again spiritual man or woman can see the things of the spirit.
So then, after Jesus came out of the water, John and I and every believer in Jesus Christ can 'SEE' that the Holy Spirit has descended and remained in Jesus Christ our Lord. Throughout all the centuries we, just as John the Baptist can 'HEAR' the voice of God or the voice of the Spirit say "THIS IS MY SON, WHOM I LOVE, WITH HIM I AM WELL PLEASED".
This is the Holy Spirit speaking, since God is the Spirit (John 4:24) or the Spirit which is in Jesus Christ our Lord.
"THIS IS MY SON";
This also is figuratively (metaphorically) speaking, God did not have a son but rather He is the SON, just like Jesus does not have a Father, because He is the Father (John 16:25).
Question;
Has heaven opened to you?
Can you see the Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ our Lord?
Can you hear the voice from heaven testify to Jesus Christ?
Have you been baptized into His Name?
would like to contact someone directtly abouth this themes
my email address juanrosario123146@yahoo.com
Thanks Anonymous for your email address.
Perhaps it might be better if we debate the trinity openly on this blog, so that others might be able to read and enter in as well.
I'm glad that the Lord Jesus has stirred your heart so that you might reconsider the position that God could be three persons.
It is of great importance that everyone who claims to believe in Jesus has an assurance in the heart that the Lord Jesus is Lord alone.
I am an ambassador for Jesus Christ and not for any other persons or identities.
The trinity is Satan's most seductive doctrine to deceive even the elect if possible and many well meaning Christians have fallen into this error.
But remember, it is not important what other people say, even your Church or the great theologians of old, but rather what the Word of God says and the Word is Jesus (John 1:1)
Paul
Paul,
I think you greatly misunderstand the doctirne of the Trinity, my friend. your logic is that if all three are God then all three cannot be called Lord. Yoiur comment to Aaroon was,
"is Jesus Christ the HEAD and POWER and AUTHORITY over His Father?"
You seem to be implying that if Jesus is Lord then the Father can have not authority. Scripture is clear that Jesus became voluntarily subjected to the Father (Php 2:5-11) and that the Father put everything under Jesus' feet:
1Cor 15:24-27 -- Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Also, you asked about Jesus being the Son. Jesus Himself never refuted this when He was called the Son of God by demons and by those who worshiped Him (Mk 1:1, Lk 1:35, Lk 3:38, Mt 8:2j9, etc.), Satan called Him the Son of God (Mt 4:1-11), Jesus Himself affirmed this (Mt 26:62-64, Lk 22:70).
The Trinity is a doctrine taught in Scripture and affirmed by Christ, the apostles, and the 1st century Christians. Perhaps my friend, and I say this with all sincerity and not malice, you should be the one repenting of being led astray by Satan.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Thanks Ekklessia Boy for your comment.
Actually my logic is very plain and simple, nothing complicated about it.
#If the Lord your God is ONE, then He can not be NONE-----ONE.# (Mark 12:29 and Deut. 6:4)
By that I mean, that He is not two or three as you suggest.
Because you have fallen headlong into the era of the Antichrist Church (Catholic Church) who has been teaching that deception from the beginning, therefore it is impossible for you to understand the Scriptures, Old and New Testament, including the doctrine of God which is the most important doctrine who is far above all other doctrines.
You rightly said that Jesus never refuted that He was called the Son of God.
That is because the Scripture said, that He shall be CALLED the Son of God (Luke 1:35).
Jesus said, at numerous times that He is the Son of Man (Mark 10:45 etc.)
Now please tell me, was Jesus lying?
Is He the Son of God? Or is He the Son of Man? Or is He a little bit of both?
Is He what the Scripture said, that He is the Son of David (Matt. 1:1+ Luke 1:32)?
Most of the people of Israel thought that He is the Son Joseph, whose Son do you think that He is?
The Trinity doctrine is not taught in Scripture, and no one in the Old Testament ever believed that God is three persons, if anyone did, then they would have immediately stoned them to death.
Likewise in the New Testament, no Apostles or disciples believed that the Lord their God is three persons, and neither do I.
Ekklessia Boy; I know that you really are sincere, but remember everyone who is deceived is sincerely deceived.
Kind regards
Paul
from reading all of your comments i can tell that there is some hate-rate but how ever you guys are all correct in what you guys are arguing about so i don't see any use for the arguments, instead of arguing on the internet please get out into the streets and spread the Good news to the Lost sheep, peace! shalom!
Thanks Scott for your comment.
Yes you are right that there is some hatred, but that hate is not directed to any human being who is created in the image of God, but only to that satanic doctrine the Trinity, which I hate with a passion as you have noticed.
No Scott; we all are not correct.
Either you are for the Lord Jesus Christ alone or you are against Him, and there is no middle ground at all.
If you preach on the streets that God is a few fellows, or a Siamese triplet, then you surely preach a false Gospel.
I think that you should make every effort to find out whether the God you are preaching is three fellows or ONE God, (not three fellows in one God), and then go into the streets and spread the good news to the lost sheep.
Shalom! Paul
Comment to Ekklessia Boy's comment.
Do you really think that I misunderstand the Trinity?
You said that my logic is that if all three are God, then all three cannot be Lord.
My logic is; if all three are God then you believe in three gods, which amounts to idolatry (polytheism).
If all three are Lord as you say, then you believe in three Lords, contrary to the Scripture, (the Lord your God is ONE and you shall have no other God beside the Lord your God)!
You said that I imply that if Jesus is Lord that the Father can have no authority.
If Jesus is Lord as I say, then there is NO other to have any authority because Jesus is Lord.
If Jesus is Lord and another person the Father is also Lord, then you believe in two Lords and two gods.
It is just as I have said in the post, that no Trinitarian can say 'Jesus is Lord'!
Without exception; all Trinitarians always say and believe that the real God is the Father and Jesus is just a chip of the big block or a part of God or just a Son of God or at best an attachment of God.
But I like to remind you that the Lord our God Jesus Christ is a jealous God (Exod. 34:14) "Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God".
Dear Paul,I too believe that Jesus is LORD,I hope you will patiently and prayerfully consider my comment,it has saddened me to see that you have little regard for all the elders that God has given to His church throughout the ages who have believed in the Trinity because they have found no other God in scripture and because there is no other God found in scripture.We are commanded to submit to Godly elders,and are warned"Let few of you be teachers".Do you believe that you know more than all the church Fathers,all the reformers and all the puritans as well as the greatest preachers and teachers,like Jonathan Edwards and Charles Spurgeon who all believed in the trinity.It is interesting that every cult that has ever existed in the world has always attacked the trinity.My prayer is that you will humble yourself and repent before you stand before this Tri-union God on the day of Judgement,because if you dont you will wish that you had never been born.I can show that the only true God whos name,not names in Matthew 28:19,we are commanded to be baptized in,"Therefore go and make Disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."It is interesting when speaking of the antichrist as not speaking by the Spirit of God in 1John2:22-23,"the antichrist-he denies the Father and the Son.No one who denies the Son has the Father;whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.It is interesting it is said that there are many false gods in the world, one expert on Hinduism said that only in Hinduism alone there are millions,isnt it amazing that out of all the gods in the world,the only true Sovereign Lord who said in Isaiah 42:8,"I am the LORD;that is my name!I will not give my glory to another" has never permitted any one of these so called gods to ever claim to be a trinitarion God,for that is His glory.May God the Father have mercy on you as he had on me when I was anti-trinitarion,and bring you to repentance.I challenge you to cry out to the Lord and ask Him to open your eyes by His Spirit,unless you are too afraid that He might do it and you will have to repent.My dear friend do not be afraid to cry out now,but be very afraid of not crying out now,I will be praying for you that the same God who had mercy on me and opened my eyes to see the Divine beauty of the Lord Jesus Christ,not as a little god,but as He is fully God like His Father,for God cannot become anything,what He is now He always was,so if scripture reveals that God is a Father,He always has been a Father therefore He must of always had a Son,praise God forever,Adrian
Thanks Adrian for your comment and your concern, I always welcome a rebuke or a correction if warranted, because that is necessary for my spiritual growth, lest I study the Scripture and never come to the knowledge of God who is the truth Jesus Christ our Lord.
You said that you believe that Jesus is Lord.
I think that you only say that as a cliché, but what you really believe is what those deceived church fathers have taught you, that Jesus is Lord with another person the Father and that both persons together are Lord and one God.
This is the epitome of Satan's master deception.
Instead of believing in those deceived church fathers, I recommend you to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ who is God over all (Rom. 9:5).
(Mark 12:29) Jesus said that the Lord your God is ONE!
(John 10:30) Jesus said that He and the Father are ONE and NOT TWO as those deceived church fathers have taught you.
Are you going to believe in Jesus or in those deceived church fathers?
No! You can't have it both ways.
Adrian; I also recommend you to read the Scripture properly and do what the Lord Jesus has commanded you in (Mat.28:19), to baptize the converts into the one Name and not into three titles as all those disobedient church fathers did.
What then is the Name of the Father? I don't think that you know that.
What is the Name of the Son? That perhaps you might know.
And what is the Name of the Holy Spirit? You and all Trinitarians don't know that, because you don't read the Scripture properly and even if you read it you don't believe it.
The NAME of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is JESUS!
That is the Name of the one person who holds those three titles 'Jesus', so next time you baptize a convert, then be obedient to Jesus and baptize them into His Name 'JESUS', just like all believers did in the Book of Acts.
On the Day of Judgment you will not stand before a Tri-union (three people) God, but before one God Jesus Christ who will NOT ask you whether you have believed in the church fathers, but rather whether you believed in Him (Jesus) who is the SOVEREIGN Lord God the Almighty the creator of heaven and earth according to Isaiah 42:8 and He will not give His glory to another, and certainly not another whom you call Father.
There is only one Sovereign Lord and that is Jesus and not that other Lord whom you call Father.
Because you don't believe that Jesus is the Father, then necessity demands from you that you believe that the Antichrist is the Father.
The Scripture says that Jesus is the Father and the Antichrist is the man of sin the Pope of Rome who usurps the title HOLY FATHER which belongs to Jesus Christ alone and demands from you that you call him (the Pope) HOLY FATHER.
It is the Pope who takes the place of God and sets himself up in the temple of God and proclaiming himself to be God the Holy Father (2 Cor.2:4).
There are only two Churches, the Church of Jesus Christ and not one of them believed the Trinity that God is three persons, and the Antichrist Church which all of them believe that God is a few persons, three exactly.
Kind regards
Here is a decent outline by Don F that sums this up .
Please read it.
Paul..are you in Australia?
Norm
THE TRINITY
We commonly speak of the first, second, and third Persons of the Trinity. We call God the Father the first Person, God the Son the second Person, and God the Spirit the third Person.
Some ignorantly imagine that to mean that God the Father is the primary Person in the Godhead and that the Son and the Spirit are secondary Gods. That is not the case at all. The three Persons of the Holy Trinity are in all things equal to and co-existent with one another.
In the execution of the covenant of grace there is a subordination of one Divine Person to another. This is not a subordination of personal inferiority; but a voluntary subordination of the Son to the Father to redeem his elect, and of the Spirit to the Father and the Son and the Sanctifier and Preserver of all who were chosen by the Father and redeemed by the Son.
This division (First, Second, and Third Persons) is made simply because our puny brains must have some order in which to think of the infinite God. The three Persons of the eternal Godhead “are,” as the apostle John puts it, “one.” They are one in nature, essence, being, and glory. When seeking to understand what the Scriptures teach about the Trinity, this is one of the many places where faith must submit to and receive as a fact of Divine Revelation that which reason can never comprehend.
Yes Anonymous, I live in Australia in the City of Brisbane Queensland.
And thanks for your explanation of the Trinity.
This doctrine is held and taught in most Churches and denominations worldwide, all though there are some differences and understandings within the Trinity teaching.
However I do not debate the minor differences of a doctrine which is not true from the start, but I strike at the roots of this satanic doctrine that pollutes and derails many well-meaning children of God.
The Trinity is not Holy, true or Scriptural as you may think, but satanic in its origin.
If it would be true and Scriptural, then surely it would be stated once or twice in the Bible.
Trinitarian statements like "God the Son and God the Holy Spirit" are not in the Bible at all; in fact it can not say that because that would indicate that God would be a few persons.
To the contrary the Word of God says, "for us there is only ONE God and that is the Father" (1 Cor. 8:6) and there is no "God the Son" as you have stated and neither is there a third person called "God the Holy Spirit".
And God is certainly not "equal" or "co-existent" with any other person as you said.
Jesus never said, that the Father and I are equal; to the contrary, "the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).
Satan teaches the Trinity that God is THREE and Jesus teaches that God is ONE (Mark 12:29), whom are you going to believe? And make no mistake, you can't believe both.
Perhaps you can see that the Trinity teaching opposes the Biblical doctrine of God in every way and thought.
Also; don't think that our brains are "puny". All Trinitarians would like you to believe that, so that you never really question them about their lies and deceptions. The Scripture says that we have the mind of Christ (1 Cor.2:16), because we have been created in the image of Jesus Christ who is God over all (Rom.9:5)
Paul
Well Paul, i was hoping for a little more than that from someone like yourself that obviously likes to think deeply about spiritual things.
I am from Australia (South Coast NSW) and came across your blog purely because I am seeking others / (and congregations if they exist) of like mind who truly believe the Gospel of God`s free Grace in Christ Jesus. It is for this reason alone that i engage you here on a blog as I believe God`s truths are actually not a thing for men to debate and ridicule. Rather, Gospel truth about the Son is a truth to be proclaimed with authority! Free grace believers are extremely rare in this country even though many individuals and denominations would claim it. It is a narrow gate. I want to see if this is you.
In my effort to find out whether you are a free Grace believer will not really involve deciding whether you are right or wrong about trinitarianism .However i will say this to you. The Lord sees that you are most often arguing semantics against people who have plainly told you that they believe God is ONE. You ought to think twice about launching your criticisms of such people as they may well belong to the Lord. You should forgive them if they read the texts that plainly also address the names of the Father and the Spirit and the Son. Persons have names. You should be slow to denounce these persons non existent. In your crusade against Trinitarians, you may easily find yourself accusing brethren on a subject that causes most of us to acknowledge that we have great limitations of comprehension. When attempting to understand our infinite God in our Lord Jesus Christ, and make no mistake what I am telling you here, Jesus is the only GOD, you should eagerly acknowledge the limitations of your puny brian and mine. For you to imply that your brain is not puny tells me and others who read this that you are possibly full of pride. I hope i am wrong for your sake!
Now, tell me Paul, in getting to the real you, to see if you are a real free grace believer, what do you really mean when you say the following: "The evidence of any man or woman's salvation is that they love the Lord Jesus Christ with all their heart, mind, soul and strength"
Thank you in anticipation for your reply. Norm
Norm;
As you can see, I mainly expose that satanic doctrine 'the Trinity' with all authority from the Lord.
And yes! Many have plainly told me that they believe that God is ONE; in fact every devil and demon says and believes that God is ONE (James 2:19) and they tremble.
If anyone says that God is one and then preaches and teaches that He is three persons, such preachers are deceived.
The doctrine of God is simple and easy to understand even a child can believe it without confusion.
'There is ONE God, Jesus Christ of Nazareth our Lord and God and beside Him there is no other.'
This is the most important doctrine which is above all other doctrines including the doctrine of "Free Grace", which I also believe.
Many Bible Colleges teach free grace, but at the end only few understand or believe it, since they must be taught by God and not by men.
Keep in mind that everybody says that they believe in free grace just the same as they say that they believe in one God.
But all that is only 'Cliché talk!'
If the wolf says that he is a sheep that does not make the wolf a sheep, but a liar.
A man or woman is saved apart from understanding or believing any doctrine whatsoever, they were in Christ before the foundation of this world and at the appropriate time the Lord Jesus called and saved them apart from them doing anything, like believing, faith, trusting or whatever you may like to think. That is called "GRACE", I like to say Amazing Grace.
And only a saved person can, love, will and does know their heavenly Father Jesus Christ the Lord.
Anyone who says that they love God is certainly no evidence of salvation, since anyone can say and do that.
Muslims love God and even murder for him, Catholics, Trinitarians love God and are willing to murder for their gods as they have demonstrated that throughout the centuries.
When Trinitarians say that they love God, they mean and unknowable God who exists in three persons, which is an insult to the true God Jesus Christ the Lord (1 John 5:20).
Here you can see, that to love God is absolutely no evidence at all, they must love Jesus Christ to be their only sovereign Lord and worship Him only, by that I mean that they automatically, out of their new heart, (new birth) love the Lord Jesus Christ with all their heart, mind, soul and strength.
That is the evidence of the saved and no man can bung that on or learn that in a religious club.
This evidence you can see in little children who have no knowledge of doctrines or God, they only love Jesus.
Jesus is the key, the foundation and the cornerstone that most religious teachers have rejected.
Paul
Additional comment;
You said, "Persons have names. You should be slow to denounce these persons non existent".
Concerning God, the Bible does nowhere speak about "persons" or "names".
Why is it so difficult to understand that is "Father" is not a name and neither is "Son or Holy Spirit" a name, those are titles belonging to one name "JESUS".
If you would believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty, then you also would denounce any other name or person.
Kind regards
Paul
Norm;
You say that you believe in free Grace:
Grace is the absence of works (by doing things like believing, faith, trusting and hoping etc.)
Perhaps you might like to answer this question.
Can a person be saved, if that person does absolutely nothing?
If you say 'yes' to the above question, then please tell me, why does the Lord Jesus save some and reject others and still be totally just?
If you say 'no' to the first question, then we both know that Grace is not free.
Paul
Ever before me is my limited and puny understanding of my unlimited and sovereign God, I have no hope of explaining to you the depth of His mighty being and so I must always turn to scripture for any understanding. Paul, scripture is overwhelmingly against you. You quote 1John 5:20 but you conveniently ignore v7 in the same chapter!
“ 1 John 5:7 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
This scripture alone should cause you to immediately to go back to the book and seek the Lord`s wisdom on this. It is not me that you are arguing with.
Is there One God only – yes. Are there three gods? – no. Still, the scriptures plainly present God both in the singular and also in the plural. (Gen. 1 :26) . If you are reading the same bible as I am, you cannot deny that God refers to Himself often in plural terms. I am really saddened that even though you have good knowledge in other areas, God has somehow sent you a strong delusion on this.
Your question to me…..”Can a person be saved, if that person does absolutely nothing?
If you say 'yes' to the above question, then please tell me, why does the Lord Jesus save some and reject others and still be totally just?
If you say 'no' to the first question, then we both know that Grace is not free.
Paul”
My answer to you Paul …2 Timothy 1:9. God saved all of His people before the world began. God does all the saving work apart from (and in spite of) us. What we do does not (cannot) affect our relationship with God, but our relationship with God affects what we do.
In conclusion ..In one of your comments to someone else you have stated…
“It is not a good practice to put your lack and limitations of your understanding and revelation onto other men.
I fully understand those passages because I had been taught by the Lord Jesus and not by men. “
Reading this, sadly you leave me with the impression that you have much pride in your heart. Yes the Lord has promised to teach His people, and He will indeed!, and in that teaching of Him, the Saviour, we are also taught and caused to see our lowliness and inadequacy and our lothing of ourselves in our flesh and pride. I fear you have not been taught this.
Job 42:3-6
Norm
Norm;
As you have said, that you have a puny and limited understanding about the sovereign God of the Scripture, so I recommend you to turn first to Jesus Christ the Lord and after to the Scriptures.
Many are studying the Scripture and never have come to know the glory and the majesty of the only God Jesus Christ the Lord (Jude 8:20); in fact they study the Scripture and think that in them (the Scripture) they would know God, but they forgetting that it is the Scripture that speak from Genesis to Revelation of Jesus, but they are unwilling to come to Jesus so that they would really know the only true God Jesus Christ the Lord (John 5:39-40).
In my pride and arrogance I could not understand (1John 5:7) because there was a big plank in my eyes and I could not see clearly, but there was only one, Jesus Christ who had the power to remove that plank so that I would be able to pick a little splinter from your eye.
Please read (v.7) again before you jump to conclusions.
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one."
Norm; if the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are one, then please tell me which ONE?
I do not ask you which 'two' or which 'three' but which 'ONE'?
In case it has escaped your notice, this is the 'ONE' I boldly proclaim and testify and bear witness from the roof-tops, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now look at the first part of the verse 7; "For there are three that bear record in heaven".
Heaven is the realm of the spirit, and any testimony has to be established by two or three witness in order to be valid.
The first witness is God who is Spirit (John 4:24), the second witness is God who came in the flesh Jesus Christ (by water and blood), the third witness is Gods Word the Bible, all those three bear record in heaven so that all men are without excuse who do not believe in the only one whom God had sent.
Plural terminology;
If it is right for the Queen to use plural terms, then surely it also would be right for the Lord to use plural terminologies, and that does not make Him three persons.
Yes Norm; I'm aware that I'm not arguing with you, the Bible says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities and one of those powers is this satanic deception the Trinity which holds many good men of God in bondage and pits of darkness.
Therefore it is of great importance for you to make that the priority above the doctrine of 'Grace'.
Your answer (2Tim.1:9) to my question is excellent, I give you a big AMEN to that and surely would like to hear you preach on that. It is as you have said that free Grace-believers are extremely rare, especially those who can portray and explain grace without works.
Again; why do my pride and my arrogance trouble you? Because I said that I have been taught by the Lord?
By whom have you been taught? The Bible College? Or have you taught yourself?
My Bible says that the man of God is taught by God (Isa.54:13 and John 6:45), not only that but he also speaks the very Word of God (1Pet.4:11).
Keep in mind that pride has the face of humility, that which the Lord hates.
Paul
Paul, It seems you accept this verse as holy scripture, so I repeat to you…1 John 5:7 KJV –
7For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.”
You asked me- “ if the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are one, then please tell me which ONE? I do not ask you which 'two' or which 'three' but which 'ONE'?”
I reply - This verse is not presented as a question for you to answer. You are ridiculing this scripture with your own human wisdom. It is the clear testimony of God about God. It is declared for your acceptance. This is the testimony of “three”. This is a truthful testimony don`t you think ? Are you really willing to question that there are three? Are there three Paul? Not only are there three, these three are also identified individually, so there is no mistake.
I am very disappointed in your blatant effort to “de-personalise one of these “three” by calling “The Word” the bible. Do you really think there is a bible in heaven bearing witness?
Jesus is the Word (John 1:14). The Word is a living Word, seated on the throne in heaven. Jesus Himself bears witness and is the Word in this verse.
Now, what does “and these three are one” mean?
Could it be that they are in perfect agreement? One in mind, one in testimony and one in purpose?
Now Paul I gave you Gen 1:26 as a clear example that the scriptures plainly present God both in the singular and also in the plural.
Your replied to me - “ If it is right for the Queen to use plural terms, then surely it also would be right for the Lord to use plural terminologies, and that does not make Him three persons.”
I say to you.. You are talking human logic and therefore absolute nonsense. Where is your scripture? Paul, it is not my quest to insult you, but if it is your desire to tell the truth, and I am sure it is in your own mind, then please speak plainly, not in riddles, and use scripture!
Finally, I see that you are very quick to agree with my self-judgement that I have puny and limited understanding about the sovereign God. This is a judgement I rightly make of myself and I am most happy with this truth. Worms I think are puny and limited. But Paul, as a fellow sinner with me and ruined totally in your flesh, it seems that you are still not ready to count yourself the same!
Paul, you asked “Again; why do my pride and my arrogance trouble you? Because I said that I have been taught by the Lord?”
I say to you – Those who have been taught by the Lord grow down in their own estimation. Norm
Sorry Norm, I have been away from the blog-world for a while.
If you still happen to read this comment, I'd like you to know that it was I who presented the question and not the Word of God (the Bible) and the question remains.
There are not three individuals as you suggest.
"Father", is the title of one individual, Jesus Christ the Lord (John 10:30).
"Word", is NOT another individual, but a title or description of Jesus Christ the Lord (John 1:1).
"Holy Ghost", is also the description of the same (ONE) individual Jesus Christ the Lord (2 Cor.3:17).
Yes, there are three that bear witness, but certainly not three individuals as you say.
It is three 'Office' of the one God that bear witness and those three are one; if you like, one in agreement or one in the person of Jesus Christ the Lord.
Norm; it is impossible for three individuals to be one.
You have fallen headlong into Satan's deception to believe such a lie.
This is not a mind game, but a question of honesty; first with the Lord, then with you and after with the rest of the world who promotes and believes such a lie that three individuals are one.
If you would read the whole of 1John chapter 5, you could see that it always and only testifies to one individual, the true God Jesus Christ the Lord.
Paul
1 John 5:7 KJV –
7For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.”
It doesn`t matter to me if you want to say I promote a lie, I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing and that this quite possible, God knows me, …. but to you now, what happened to your explanation that “the third witness is God`s Word the Bible” ?? Suddenly you rightly admit it is Jesus. Have you have changed your mind or are you just confused? Could you be honest and admit you were mistaken?
Also Paul you have provided absolutely no sensible explanation of the plural terms that God uses of Himself (Gen. 1 :26 )
You are most likely arguing semantics across your whole debate.
Consider these statements: The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. Jesus is the exact representation of God, fully God, and is the one true God. Honour Jesus and you honour also the Father and the Spirit, dishonour Jesus and you dishonour the Father and the Spirit. There are NOT three Gods. There is but ONE God. Paul, Can you say yes to all these statements? If yes, then you agree with Trinitarians at this high level of description of God. Stop bickering over crumbs!
Paul, the Gospel is really what saves or condemns. The dangerous part in what you are doing here in this blog is making trinitariansm the Gospel and arguing words with very flexible definitions. You have no support for your dogmatism from scripture and in fact scripture is against you clearly in many places. I fear you may be looking for the slightest disagreements on an infinite subject for the sake of elevating yourself to teacher. I hope this is not the case.
Paul, the Gospel is certainly firmly connected with this issue, but it is not the essence of it. You are mis-focussing. So how about it Paul, why not challenge men where it really matters…with the Gospel? This is our commission, not endlessly arguing yes or no on trinitarianism. Before you do however, please tell me what you think is the essence of the Gospel. I will work with you a little longer for your reply. What is the Gospel?
Norm
Yes Norm I say it again, "these three are one", but which one?
You are saying that these three are three individuals and not one.
This is not semantics but a deceptive lie. Three individuals cannot be one!
Neither do you understand the statements you made about God, you think that the Father is one person, the Son a second person and the Holy Spirit a third person and those three persons are one God.
That is a delusion at best.
You have learned that lie from the Catholic Church, the Antichrist Church who has set itself against the Lord Jesus Christ and added two more individuals to God who is one.
This is against the Jesus Christ, because they don't want to give the glory of the Father to the Lord Jesus Christ, instead they give the glory (the title 'Father') to another individual the Pope and call him 'Holy Father' which is forbidden in the Scripture (Matt.23:9+10).
For this reason the Pope is called the Antichrist because he has taken the place of Jesus Christ and usurped the title which only belongs to Jesus alone and not to any other individual.
Norm; if you do not give that glory 'the title Holy Father' to Jesus Christ, then to whom do you give it?
I give that glory to Jesus Christ alone, since all the glory must be to the Lord.
I think that you are smart enough to see that, but it troubles me that you deliberately refuse to believe the truth.
Why is my language not clear to you?
I have been proclaiming the gospel of God from the beginning, but you do not hear, because you don't know what the gospel is.
If the Scripture says that the Lord your God is ONE, then certainly He is not THREE.
Paul
1 John 5:7 KJV –
7For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.”
Paul - you keep asking a question that isn`t a question! You ask "these three are one", but which one?
I say to you – That “there are three that bear record” is a statement of fact and not a question. To use your carnal logic, you say these are three “offices or titles” that bear record. Since when does a title or an office speak? (Matt 3:16-17). Come on Paul, if the title speaks then it is not just a title! And the “one” means they are one in testimony. I have told you this already and you have not been able to refute it with scripture.
Paul, why won`t you answer my questions directly? Are these questions too hard to fit with your anti-trinitariansm?
Three times I have asked you to explain how Gen 1:26 - still no scriptural answer from you!
I have asked you to acknowledge of deny any of the Trinitarian statements in the previous post – no answer from you!
I asked you what the Gospel is – no answer on that as well !! Paul, aren`t you even going to have a go at telling me what the Gospel is? Are you going to refuse to tell me the Gospel? I am a sinner, so please tell me the Gospel Paul. This only needs to be one sentence long if you like.
Paul you say, “If the Scripture says that the Lord your God is ONE, then certainly He is not THREE. I say here it is Paul please read it again with your own eyes.. 1 John 5:7 KJV “there are three that bear record in Heaven..”
You asked – ‘Norm; if you do not give that glory 'the title Holy Father' to Jesus Christ, then to whom do you give it?’
I answer : Christ taught that it is right to give Glory to God the Father (Matt 6: 9-13). Jesus Christ is also worthy to receive this same glory (Rev 5:12).
By the way, you are somehow making an assumption that I am of the catholic church? Paul, I am not a catholic and I believe you are actually correct in saying catholocism is antichrist.
Paul, I have tried to communicate with you seriously, but when you refuse to answer questions directly, and you continue to run to your own carnal logic for interpretation without scripture, it makes this process incredibly difficult. I am willing to answer your questions as best my puny mind is able and with the knowledge the Lord has given me, but it seems you will not respond the same.
Norm; an office, a title and a book certainly does speak loud and clear just as much as the law or the written Word of God (the Bible).
Jesus said that it is the Bible that speaks about me (John 5:39).
(1 John 5:7) are not three individuals that bear witness, but three offices, titles and sources that speak and testify in agreement to one individual Jesus Christ the Lord.
If you don't understand that, well! That's ok, but I will not repeat myself about that.
Concerning the gospel of God;
I have been proclaiming the gospel of God to you in all my comments, but you seemingly can't hear the gospel, perhaps that is because you and most or all Trinitarians don't know what the gospel is.
All Trinitarians are Catholics (Universalists) with different denominational names, but the delusion of their three individual gods still hangs over them like a satanic cloud.
Generally they say, think and believe that the gospel is a strategy of cleverly selected Scriptural verses always pertaining to salvation, mainly a works based strategy what a sinner must do to be saved.
However; that is certainly not the gospel!
The gospel is JESUS CHRIST proclaimed, portrayed, preached and taught in whatever capacity the preacher is able to.
The gospel of God is JESUS CHRIST proclaimed and taught to be the Lord God the Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last the beginning and the end and beside Jesus Christ there is NO OTHER individual or spirit who is also God or shares in God etc.
The gospel of salvation is JESUS CHRIST proclaimed as the only savior, and that there is no other Name give in heaven and on earth whereby a sinner must be saved. The preachers can use whatever illustrations and Scripture verses they like to. As long as the Lord Jesus Christ is proclaimed, the gospel has been preached.
The gospel of creation is JESUS CHRIST proclaimed to be the only ONE who created all things and nothing came into being apart from Him (John 1) etc.
The gospel of the Kingdom of God is again and always JESUS CHRIST proclaimed to be the KING in His Kingdom and there is no other individual who is also a King.
The moment you include another person or individual into the gospel, then you preach another gospel, another Jesus and another spirit than the one we preach (Gal.1:6-8 and 2 Cor.11:4).
Therefore make every effort to preach Jesus Christ alone without adding any other individuals to your gospel.
Norm; you did not answer my question, so I ask again.
Who do you call 'Holy Father'?
The question is not difficult, just give me His Name.
You say to me …”you did not answer my question, so I ask again.
Who do you call 'Holy Father'? The question is not difficult, just give me His Name.”
I say…Haven`t you read Matt 6:9? His name is “Father” …hallowed be thy “NAME”. And I have said “ The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. These are the names of God.
Of course the bible “speaks” of Christ because all the words in it`s pages speak of Him, but your claim that a mere title or office “speaks” is just plain silly.
Paul you are ignoring the plain language of scripture that stands against you;
*You still refuse to acknowledge the plurals that God uses of Himself ;Gen 3:22, Gen 11:7, Isaiah 6:8. Still waiting on the answer Paul.
* God differentiating Himself with God in some sense; Psalm 45:6-7, Heb 1:8, Is 61:1 , Psalm 110:1.
*The many verses that the Messiah as the divine speaker refers to the Lord / the Spirit as having sent Him; Is 48:16, Is 61:1, Zech 2:10-11, John 5:37
*The plural nouns that are used as the name of God; Psalm 149:2, Ecc 12:1, Is 54:5
Not to mention the many personal pronouns the Saviour uses when speaking of His Father and the Spirit, differentiating from Himself in a divine sense “He” eg John 16:13, etc
However Paul, this debate all becomes secondary now because I have asked you to tell me the Gospel and tragically you have shown me you do not know the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ!. This is stern stuff and you need to hear this. As you have stated, yes Christ is to be proclaimed, Yes Jesus is the Lord God Almighty, Yes He is the King, Yes He is the only Saviour, Yes He is the Creator, but if this is the heart of your Gospel then you have missed the heart!
Paul, the Gospel is Jesus Christ and Him CRUCIFIED 1 Cor 2:2, 1Cor 1:1-3, Gal 3:1. This was the Gospel of the apostles, and the Gospel of the scriptures. Tragically you and most of the religious world continue to be blind to this. You have missed “substitution”, - “blood atonement” as the heart of your message, and it is exactly the same error of Cain. Go and read the account again Paul in Genesis 4 and ask yourself why was Abel`s sacrifice accepted and Cain`s rejected? It was a picture of the gospel and the gospel opposite, and I fear for you that you know only Cain`s offering which is no Gospel at all.
Go and tell a sinner your gospel of Jesus is Lord Paul, that Jesus is King and that Jesus is Creator and even that Jesus is the only Saviour, without SUBSTITUTION and BLOOD ATONEMENT, and all you will do is cause your hearer to attempt to please that Lord, that King, That Creator… by the works of his own hands. Why? Because you have not told Him how he is made right by the righteousness and sacrifice of another. You have not proclaimed Christ`s finished work as the sinners substitute on his behalf. You have not revealed God`s hatred of Sin and the need for repentance, Don`t you see? A gospel without the CROSS is a gospel without justice satisfied. There is no grace apart from the crucified Lord and you give the hearer no assurance without it.
I fear for you Paul because if you had really known this Gospel you would have told me these things up front. However, you have claimed to have told me the Gospel over and over again when in fact you have NOT told me the Gospel at all. You have proclaimed to me a false Gospel, without substitution, without the Cross, without blood in it!
Norm; you said, "You have missed the 'substitution blood-atonement' as the heart of your message".
I have not explained or talked about the gospel of salvation, that wasn't our topic.
We were talking about the gospel of GOD.
You then asked me, "what is the gospel?"
My reply was,"that all who don't know what the gospel is, always say, think and believe that the gospel is a strategy of cleverly selected Scriptural verses ALWAYS pertaining to salvation, and that is NOT the gospel."
You have exactly demonstrated that in your last comment.
Norm; I have NOT explained or talked about salvation.
You are saying that salvation is the gospel.
I am saying that Jesus Christ is the gospel.
And when you talk or preach about SALVATION, then it is "JESUS CHRIST and Him crucified"! Plus all the Bible verses you can think of pertaining to salvation.
And when you talk or preach about God, then it is 'JESUS CHRIST and He' to be the only true God, plus all the Bible verses you can think pertaining to God, etc.
Salvation is the topic and Jesus is the gospel.
God is the topic and Jesus is the gospel.
Creation is the topic and Jesus is the gospel.
The kingdom is the topic and Jesus is the gospel of the kingdom of God.
The gospel of every topic is Jesus, and you ought to preach the gospel of "JESUS CHRIST" in every topic.
And the 'SHED BLOOD' is also not the gospel, but it is 'JESUS' who shed His blood for sinners etc.
Don't confuse the issue!
Norm; I have asked you to give me the Name of the 'Holy Father', your answer to that was; "His Name is Father".
If you would have read my comments to you, then you would not have given me an answer like that.
So then I will say it again.
Father is NOT a name!
Father is a TITLE and not a name.
I am a father, but that is not my name. My name is Paul and 'father' is my title, description or office in my house.
I'm beginning to think that you have no understanding of the Scripture at all and that makes me wonder about your understanding of 'Free Grace'.
Who has taught you? And which denomination has polluted your mind?
Kind regards and lots of love
Paul
Paul again…you have provided No Scripture!!! Don`t you know you have absolutely no authority without scripture?. When are you going to go back to your bible for your proof? Please don`t waste my time again by replying without scripture.
Paul your comment: “I am a father, but that is not my name. My name is Paul and 'father' is my title, description or office in my house.”
This is the very thing that is causing you to stumble, for you are trying to place your pathetic human standards upon God. God the Father is not like man. Num 23:19. God has many names in scripture, but the “Father” does not require an earthly human name as you want suggest. It is proper however that Jesus who came in the flesh and walked among us should have a human name. Paul these are distinctions that scripture makes..not me.
“Father” is a name and “Holy Spirit” is a name because scripture says they are names! Argue with these verses if you dare…..Matt 6:9.Matt 28:19.
Now you accuse me of confusing the issue of the Gospel. I gave you the entire Gospel in one sentence Paul. The Gospel is Jesus Christ and Him CRUCIFIED 1 Cor 2:2, 1Cor 1:1-3, Gal 3:1.” Is this confusing to you?
Paul, I pleaded with you as a sinner that needs to hear the Gospel, to tell me the Gospel, but you did not tell me about Christ and His blood atonement. Paul, this is the essential Gospel (Good news). You left it out. Do you want proof that this is the Gospel? Go through the book of Acts and read what the Apostles preached in every Gospel address. Always Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. Here are the chapters for you to go and read with your own eyes…Acts 2,3,4,5,7,10,13,26. Paul, if you claim fellowship with the apostles then teach what the Apostles taught. The Gospel is Jesus Christ and Him CRUCIFIED.
If you bring anything else to me, either added or subtracted to this,i must reject you and your words. Norm
Hello everyone.
The reason I looked up this site, was that I might find someone else who realizes that - "no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by The Holy Spirit," does not, and never has, and never will mean, that literally no one is physically able to speak out those words, of Jesus being Lord, except by the supernatural help of The Holy Spirit - as Paul said, you can teach a parrot to say those words, and guess what, people lie, and boast also; the fact that someone says it (as the false prophets do), does not make it true of them/us.
That piece of Scripture from 1 CORINTHIANS 12 v 3, is telling us that it just isn't true for anyone to call Jesus Lord, unless they have been obedient to be baptized, with water and specifically baptized with The Holy Spirit - AS COMMANDED BY JESUS - JOHN 3 v 1 - 21. MATTHEW 3 all. LUKE 12 v 49 - 53. JOHN 14 v 15 - 20. ACTS 1 v 4 - 8. ACTS 2 all. ACTS 10 all. ROMANS 8 v 1 - 17. 2 CORINTHIANS 13 v 5 - 6.
Jesus gave His Life, to win for us the GRACE that would enable The Holy Spirit, that once dwelt with Israel in the Holy of Holies, and the Ark of the Covenant, to win for use the GRACE (which we receive when we are obedient to be baptized in water, as we seek God for His forgiveness, His pardon, His GRACE - which is a gift to all who obey His commandment to be baptized, as a choice of their own - NOT christening), that would enable The Holy Spirit of God to dwell within temples of His own making - i.e - people, us, if we obey, and seek to be baptized, a baptism given via the laying on of hands, and still attested to with the God given miraculous GIFT of tongues - but tongues attests to a single event, it does NOT attest to a continued love and obedience towards God, only our doctrine, behaviour, beliefs, and opinions do that.
Sadly, some people really do beleive that the words "Jesus is Lord," can only be physically spoken, uttered, said, except by supernatural means, but didn't Jesus say to us, "why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not the things I tell you." And, "not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter The Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven."
I would have said such a belief as some have, that those words cannot be spoken, is so easily tested and proved - isn't it. We need to be much more careful than that.
ROMANS 8 v 9. "If anyone does not have The Spirit of Christ (JOHN 14 v 15 - 20. MATTHEW 3 all. LUKE 12 v 49 - 53.), he is NOT His." WOW!
JOHN 3 v 1 - 21. "You must be born again."
If we have been obedient to be baptized, as commanded, in which case God will have given us the GIFT of His Own Holy Spirit to dwell within us, and will attest to this GIFT via the miracle of tongues - then we can honestly call Jesus Lord, as a born again child of God, but we must remain loving, and obedient.
"..no one can say Jesus is Lord, expect by The Holy Spirit."
Not baptized, does in fact mean not Christian, as the word Christian means 'an anointed one,' (no, it has never meant follower of Christ) and the anointing is The baptism with The Holy Spirit. 2 CORINTHIANS 1 v 20 - 22. 1 JOHN 2 v 18 - 29. 1 JOHN 3 v 24.
Do you see why the GIFT of tongues is edifying - because it attests to a vital event, baptism with God's Holy Spirit, that we might truthfully say "Abba, Father."
Colossians 2 v 9 - 10, needs to be read with verses 5 to 8 also, for context; Jesus has told us the Truth, and as The resurrected Son of God by the time Colossians was written, Jesus had been raised above every principality, and power of darkness, not above His Father God, but above every other power and authority. And indeed the fulness of The Godhead dwells in Him - the mind/will of The Father, The Word of The Father, which Jesus Himself is (JOHN 1 v 1 - 18), and The Spirit of The Father, Whom Jesus (The Man) received without measure.
The Mind, The Word, and The Spirit of God, where all within Jesus The Man - The Flesh.
Hi David;
Good comment; I have read it a few times to make sure that I understand you correctly.
In most parts I agree, but for the sake of the full revelation of God I dare to question you on some statements you made.
You said, "to win for us the GRACE (which we receive when we are obedient to be baptized in water,.....".
David; Grace does not have a condition. If it has a condition, then it is no longer GRACE but works.
Grace in salvation is unmerited; it does not depend on your obedience, knowledge or action in any form whatsoever.
Grace is the unmerited favor of God towards His children; therefore He saved them while they were still dead in their sins and trespasses and gave them life. After they have been given life, they are now willing to be baptized in water; repent of their sins and whatever else the Lord Jesus is telling them to do.
You said; "that we might truthfully say "Abba Father."
David; this is a very important question; who do you call Abba Father?
Please tell me His Name?
You said; "Jesus has been raised above every principality, and power of darkness, not above His Father God, but above every other power and authority."
A statement like that severely troubles me.
Are you saying that there is another, a higher power and authority than Jesus Christ of Nazareth??
Hello Paul.
There is indeed an Authority geater than that of Jesus, and that Authority is God The Father - BUT - I must qualify that statement by saying that when I say Jesus, I am talking of The Only begotten Son of God, The flesh that is Jesus, not The Nature of The Father within that fleshly Temple, I am in fact talking about Jesus The Man, just as Jesus spoke of Himself to Philip in JOHN 14, or as Jesus spoke of Himself when He said - "not My will, but Thy will be done."
I think I may know where you are coming from Paul, we do all get ourselves in a muddle at times, we have an enemy that tries his best to see that we do. I may have missed your point Paul, I am sorry if i have.
We need to remember Jesus came to us as a Man, in the flesh, just like yourself and I, we need to remember that.
Scripture says God cannot be tempted, and that He Himself tempts no man; yet Jesus was indeed tempted, yet never gave in to temptation, this also helps us to remember Jesus The Man, the flesh, as distinct from Jesus The Word, that dwelt with God from the beginning.
There is indeed a greater Authority than Jesus the Man, and that Authority dwelt within Him, and was known to Him, God The Father; Jesus The Man, Loved God The Father, but that is not to say Jesus lovec Himself, Jesus said why do you call Me good, there is only One Who is good, your Father God in Heaven, so again Jesus was making this distinction between Him and His Father, and it is this distinction that I remark on when saying yes, there is an Authority greater than Jesus - and we are told that Jesus will deliver everything to His Father, that He may be all in all.
There is no disagreement in The Godhead, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, but The Son (WORD - see JOHN 1) is subject to The Father, and The Spirit is subject to The WORD of The Father (He - The Spirit - will bring no message of His Own), The Spirit of God (MASTER CRAFTSMAN) moved over the waters, "LET THERE BE."
God The Father - the will/mind/character/desire of God.
God The Son - The Word of God - The spoken expression of God's will/mind.
God The Holy Spirit - The Creative Power of God, putting into action, the expressed will of The Father.
The Three agree.
Indeed with our own lives, our words and actions are subject to our will, mind, desire, character (spirit), we do nothing without thinking about it first.
God never told anyone His Name, He just said "I am." Which in Hebrew, is I understand - "Yahweh (YHWH)."
The Will, Word, and Spirit of God are all 'GOD' - but function is always suject to will - Jesus could never say something outside of God's will, and The Holy Spirit can never do something outside of God's Word (though many claim He does).
Jesus,as fleshly Man, would have been subject to Death, if He allowed Himself to become subject to sin, but He did not allow Himself to become subject to sin, so He took Death and Hades captive, gaining Authority over them (Death and Hades had God given authority - the wages of sin is death, it was Law, God's declared WORD).
Hello again Paul.
I hope I have said nothing to make anyone feel I am undermining Jesus, or demoting Him, for nothing could be further from the truth.
In no other Name can a man be saved, and in Him the fulness of The Godhead dwells - the Mind of God, Word of God, and The Spirit of God without measure.
Jesus gave His Life, that I might have life, but Jesus taught us to pray to The Father; as I think about this, I wonder if I really even know how to pray, I have learnt a lot of 'church' that I need to question.
Jesus is everything to us Paul, I am not questioning that; and there is no greater Authority than that which dwells within Jesus - which is The Authority of God The Father
Himself.
Jesus said He is able to do nothing of Himself, and that the words are not His Own.
We need to remember Jesus the Man, The only begotten Son of The Father, Who walked among us as a Man, just as we are, if we are going to understand the relationship God desires to have with us - Jesus The Firstborn - we the many, if we believe and obey.
Paul, I feel we all to often forget that Jesus was/is The Word of God that BECAME flesh, that He, God, might walk among us, and bring to us His Word, without which we could not be saved, simply because we would not know what God asks of us.
Jesus had to die for us as a Man, tempted just as we are, but lets say Jesus did so, yet never spoke a word to us; His sacrific would still have achieved its purpose, but we would all be ingnorant of any part we must play, to be recipients of His work.
It is a sad fact that the words faith, belief, confession, are so misunderstood by many within the church.
Just as when by faith, the (obedient) Israelites put blood on the door post, and ate the lamb; and just as by faith, the (obedient) Israelites looked at the bronze serpent, that they might live; and just as by faith, Abraham took Isaac to sacrific him, they were all acts of faith, in obedience to specific commandments dedicated to God ALONE, none of them were good works (good deeds done to help others), they were acts of faith - faithfulness to obey a commandment which had no bearing on anyone but the individual involved.
"If they (unbelievers) do naturally that which is required by God, then they have become a Law unto themselves." (a good thing, not the way we use the phrase today).
Not only 'Christians' do good works - far far from it, 'Christians' can actually be some of the nastiest most unhelpful people you will ever meet.
If we are faithful to God, we will do good works towards others - but such good works, are not the same as our faithful obedience to God's specific commandments that are between Him and us ALONE.
If I am baptized in water, it is between myself and God, but it is not a good work towards anyone; if I am baptized with The Holy Spirit, it is between myself and God, but it is not a good work towards anyone.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, if I obey God's commandment to be baptized, in repentance of my sin, seeking His pardon, His forgiveness - GRACE - which is a GIFT from God, and His to give, but never mine to assume; I am not doing a good work, I am seeking God's GIFT, and the same is true for baptism with The Holy Spirit, He is God's GIFT to give, not mine to assume, and my faith is not a good work, a good thing yes, but not a good work.
I know many people (christians)who will do good works, yes, at times just to be seen to be doing them, and only for those they wish to do them for, but they refuse to be baptized, claiming to already have the GIFTS promised via baptism.
They have indeed done good works towards others, but are not faithful towards God in His one to one personal commandments, between God and themselves.
David;
Thanks again for your comment.
Yes, you did get yourself into a big muddle.
Remember the title of my post, "TRINITARIANS cannot say Jesus is Lord".
That is because all Trinitarians separate the title 'Father' from the Lord Jesus and give it to another person, and call that other person 'Father', contrary to (John 14:7-10 +John 8:19).
Jesus said that if you do not know that I am He, you will die in your sins (John 8:24).
To them (the Trinitarians) God is no longer ONE, but TWO! In other words; Jesus Christ is not the Lord God alone, but He shares 'Deity' with another identity called the Father. Because of that reason it is impossible for them to say "Jesus is Lord", the spirit they have received demands by necessity that this other person (the Father) is also 'LORD'.
LORD means GOD! And only those who believe and know that God is ONE can say 'Jesus is Lord'.
Speaking by the Spirit of God; Jesus Christ is the Lord God alone, beside Him there is no other God (Lord).
By the way; The Godhead is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus called Father who is manifested in the person of Jesus Christ our Lord.
You said; "God never told anyone His Name."
Yes David; God made His Name known only to His children, and you should also know His Name just as I do (Isa.52:6).
Gods Name is JESUS! click here
Trinitarians do not know His Name because they have been ensnared by a satanic deception to think that God is three persons.
David; I think that you as a man of God should make every effort to rid yourself of such teachings like the Trinity and other related doctrines.
To Paul G
No answer to my post September 07, 2011 12:11 PM ?
First you gave me lots of human argument with absolutely no scripture, and then you presented me with a false Gospel?
The Gospel truth was presented to you and proof of it and you have completely ignored it. Get your Gospel right Paul G then at last you might see the madness of your ant-trinitarian crusade.
Norm
Hello Paul.
I read the link you pointed me to, and I can agree, that people can and indeed do, look to God as Father, whilst looking past, and dismissing, or almost dismissing Jesus - is that not what the Jewish Nation themselves have done, to a large extent; and yes, the RC church also, as a denomination, are way way off mark, and must be of great offence to God (and yet God still finds and rewards the hearts of the sincere within the denomination). And others I know, also look to God, whilst looking past Jesus, some even would portray a love for God, and express hope in God, whilst mocking Jesus - in that instance I can understand what you say about a perceived 'bigger God' than Jesus. Because that is not my own belief, and I do not see any quarrel in the Godhead, I may have misunderstood you a little Paul, but let me remark on this, for it may in part fit in with this debate:
There is a dangerous situation within the Christian Church today, where The Holy Spirit of God, is being worshipped, to the detriment of Jesus - The Word of God - and to the detriment of God The Father, The Author of that Word. (the 'Toronto Blessing.')
People sideline Scripture (Jesus, The Son, The Word), and embrace spiritual signs and wonders (I was involved in it for five years, and for fifteen years have been warning people against it), because they have separated The Spirit of God, from the Word of God (Jesus, The Son of God), in fact they have driven a wedge between the relationship Spirit and Word have with Each Other, or at least that is what they have done in their own understanding, as in reality The Will/Word/Spirit of God, can never be divided - They are ONE.
I may be, just may be, beginning to understand your argument Paul; in as much that people may misuse the Trinity, that they may then make claims that they believe relinquish them from kneeling to Jesus (The Word) as Lord, and accepting His Authority, this I have seen for myself within the Evangelical/Pentecostal church; so people may make God The Father, and God The Spirit, out to be different in form and function to Jesus in a way which is very wrong, but that is an error of man, it should not undermine The Trinity - Mind/Word/Spirit.
If I were to say that God The Father is greater than God The Son (Jesus), therefore I will not acknowledge God The Son; or that God The Spirit is greater than God The Son, therefore I will not acknowledge God The Son, then I misuse The Trinity, and would indeed be refusing to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, but that would be an act of my own disobedience.
Perhaps it is because I do not see The Trinity as some may well do within some denominations, and perhaps as I once used to, as a child, that I am struggling as I am with this debate, I do not know; but I can see how choosing to divide God into Three, in a way that God has not declared, that we may choose to worship One of Three parts of The Godhead would we wrong.
To myself, the word God, means ONE, just as God called Himself "I" or "I .... am," The Trinity being Three facets of One Spiritual being, I do not see them as either, or, not One being to the exclusion of another, but yes, I have seen others behave like this towards God.
The Son will be seated at the right hand of The Father, a clear distinction, but we must remember Jesus The flesh, The Man, for just as we are individual children of God, so is Jesus The Man.
The Will of God (Father), Word of God (Son), and Power of God (Spirit), The Three are One, and The Three agree - but that still leaves Jesus The Flesh, The Man, The Human being, Mary's and Joseph's son/Son, and , He, Jesus, The Christ, The Anointed begotten Son of God, a Human, my brother, and my Lord, will be seated at God's right hand.
Paul, would you agree with this?
When Jesus said to Philip, "Anyone who has seen Me, has seen The Father."
Would you agree that Jesus was not talking to Philip about His features, not talking about His body in any way what so ever, but was talking to Philip about His Character, His Nature, His love, His truth, His compassion, His grace, His forgiveness, His help, His encouragement, His healing the sick, and the broken hearted, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, setting the captives free, raising the dead, casting out demons.
It was these things which Jesus expected Philip to recognize as being God within Him, and witnessing these things that revealed The Spirit of, Character of, Nature of, and Righteous Authority of, Life of, God The Father - God is love, and God is a Spirit.
Norm;
If you can't accept sound wisdom that a title is not a name, then there is no point for a debate.
I do not argue for the sake of an argument, but I surely argue for the sake of the truth.
And the truth is not a cleverly cooked up theory, but it is the person which I represent, Jesus Christ the Lord (John 14:6).
Norm; if you would love the truth, then you would have given me an 'AMEN'.
If you do not love the truth, then the Lord has given you over to a powerful delusion to believe the lie, just like the Scripture says in (2 Thes. 2:11).
Hah! God is three fellows in one God; absurd at best!
Surely that has to be the epitome and masterpiece of satanic deception and only the ignorant and naïve will fall for it.
David;
Many of those things you have pointed out have troubled me immensely, and from time to time I strongly speak against them. I think that all those problems are rooted in the Trinity doctrine.
By the "RC church" I assume you mean the Romen Catholic Church.
David; there is no such doctrine as the Trinity in the Bible. Therefore you should not try to redefine the Trinity doctrine by saying "Mind/ Word/ Spirit."
The Trinity states; 'That God is three persons within the one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit and those three persons are one God.' Sometimes they say, 'and those three persons are revealed in one God'.
That makes no difference in how they rearrange the words, a lie is a lie and that doctrine is NOT in the Bible, but the Catholic Church (the Antichrist Church) has first taught that shortly after Christ.
Also, there are no such statements as "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" in the Bible. Those are Trinitarian statements, and would imply that God is three individuals or persons.
Concerning; Philip and Jesus in (John 14:7-10).
This is a good example where Jesus plainly told Philip that He is the Father.
For arguments sake; let's put you into the picture.
(Paraphrased)
(v8) David said to Jesus, Lord Jesus you are always talking about the Father throughout the New Testament, please show me the Father, so that I know and understand.
(v9) Jesus answered; don't you know me David? You have been so many years a Christian, a disciple of mine and you still don't know me? Anyone who has SEEN me has SEEN the Father, or plainly; I am the Father.
(v7) David, if you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on you should never say again that you do not know and have never seen the Father, because you now know him and are looking at him.
(v10) Or don't you believe that I am in the Father and that the Father is in me?
(John 16:25) Previously I have been speaking figuratively to you about my Father, but now I have told you plainly.
Hello Paul.
Paul, when Jesus said - "I will pray The Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you for ever - the Spirit of Truth" - we clearly have three distinctions. JOHN 14 v 15 - 17. This fact doesn't cause me any difficulty, and I hope I can honestly say that I worship God as a whole, as One, "I" Who am, or "I am."
Once upon a time I did struggle to understand what was meant by the Trinity, and had no idea about The Spirit, as I now do since being baptized with The Holy Spirit, as attested to with the gift of tongues.
Understanding God as Mind/Word/Spirit, and understanding that The Spirit, is subject to The Word, which is subject to The Mind/Will of God The Father, has really helped me to understand Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and how the fulness of The Godhead, is together One, or "I." God, is "I," or "I am."
I can understand how Trinity is a man made description of the Godhead, as described in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and I can understand how, as with all Scripture, Trinity can be misused, in fact, so much within Scripture, is misused, God's Truth is difficult to find, because of the muddied waters of denomination.
If talking about Trinity, as the denomination, or also the Oneness denomination, (I myself am of no denomination, and I prefer not to think of denomination - there is but one Truth - I was brought up within a Methodist church, and Baptist church, but neither had the mind of Christ as Christ would wish us to).
When Paul told the Corinthians that they had the mind of Christ, he was talking about their knowledge of the Gospel, and their acceptance of the Gospel, and having been baptized with The Holy Spirit, they had The Spirit's help to give understanding of the Scriptures; but Paul was not saying they had miraculously received the mind of Christ as a supernatural gift akin to tongues, but rather they were renewing their mind in Christ Jesus, learning the mind of Christ, learning wisdom, with the help of The Spirit of Wisdom that now dwelt within them. Having the mind of Christ, simply meant becoming aware of, accepting, and obeying God's Word, as delivered to us by Jesus, i.e, giving Jesus the place of Lord of our lives, acccepting His witness.
There was one more thing I wanted to say Paul, about God's GRACE - God'd GRACE is GRACE in waiting, won for everyone, but received by us, upon our obedience to repent, and be baptized in water, and ask God for His forgivenss - by grace we have been saved, through faith - you must be born of the water, and the Spirit - it is up to us, if we are faithful, we will obey, if we obey, we are rewarded with that which God has declared.
David,
You have voiced a decent understanding of our God as revealed in three which Paul G cannot answer (1 John 5:7 KJV – 7For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.”),however you are terribly mistaken on Grace. This is may even be worse than Paul G`s anti-trinitarian blindness.
David, you talk a lot about obedience and acts of the flesh (baptism) as a requirement of Salvation. This is very bad doctrine and is damning doctrine.
God`s children receive God`s Grace freely. Do you get that word “ freely”? This means all of God`s chosen ones were saved by the Saviour FREELY - apart from absolutely anything they have done, are doing now, or ever will do. In fact if you claim to be doing ANYTHING to merit God`s favour, then then God`s favour to some degree depends on YOU!. If you don`t get this then you have missed the Gospel of God`s free Grace completely.Please read 2 tim 1:9-10 and you will hopefully see, Gods people have all everyone of them been saved already, …they were saved from before the world was made! Also God`s favour was bestowed upon only those that the Father has given the Son. The Son did NOT win anything for everybody. His sheep, his Church, Us, His people, His bride are the only recipients of His Grace.
Norm
Hello Norm.
"For God so loved the World, that He gave His Only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." - GRACE.
We are told that we are saved by GRACE, through FAITH - EPHESIANS 2 v 8 - 9.
Norm, as I think I said to Paul, the understanding of just what it means to express 'faith,'belief,' and 'confession,' is I feel, misunderstood by many; acts of faith, do not detract from GRACE; if it wasn't for GRACE, faith, would be futile, and as James said, faith without actions is dead.
Without GRACE (unmerited favour), I could have faith that would move mountains (but faith of what I don't know), but it would all be false hopes, for my faith, has to be faith in an established decree, God's decree of GRACE, by faith.
The law of GRACE and FAITH, has overcome the Law of SIN and DEATH.
For faith in salvation to come alive, GRACE had to come to empower faith, if faith wasn't to be false hopes - i.e, I have faith that God will save me - but GRACE does not exist, so He cannot, it is impossible, no matter how much faith I can muster, and my faith would be faith in false hopes.
Do you see how our acts of loving obedience to God, in keeping His commandments, does not in any way detract from God's GRACE.
I had done nothing to earn God's GRACE as He decided to send Jesus to atone for my life. My acts of faith, do not change that.
GRACE is the bridge God has built between Mankind and Himself, faith is the act of our choosing to cross that bridge.
No one can come to The Son, unless they are led by The Father - what does that mean - "My Words are life, and Spirit."
"faith comes by hearing."
"These Words I speak are not My Own."
It is God's Word, which is life and Spirit, that leads, and draws us to The Son, Jesus, The Christ, King of kings, Lord of lords.
Who are the 'elect,' but those who elect to love God.
Who are the 'chosen,' but those who have chosen to obey God.
God shows no partiality, partiality is in fact a sin.
"To those who have, more will be given, and to those who do not have, even what they have will be taken from them." - WISDOM.
Grace has been won for all, those who benefit from this GRACE, are those who choose to love and obey God, keeping His commandments; those who do not do so, reject the saving GRACE that lies waiting for them. LUKE 7 v 24 - 35. MATTHEW 22 v 1 - 13. GALATIANS 3 v 26 - 29.
Norm, Jesus really has won the GIFT of Grace for everyone, but it is our choice if we wish to receive that Grace.
Norm, you are correct in saying that only Christ's Church are recipients of His Grace, but Grace was won for all, and we become recipients via our obedient faith to be baptized.
ACTS 2 v 36 - 39.
My faith, my hope, and my love, are my gifts to God.
He who endures to the end, shall be saved; so much does depend upon us Norm, and although there is nothing I can do to earn God's GRACE, there is something I can do to receive it, and then it becomes my resposibility to hold on to it - JOHN 13 v 5 - 17. - as we forgive, so are we forgiven.
David, There are so many unbiblical flaws in you words that I really don`t have time to address them all, but here is a short list..
David, you are yet another voice from the confused religious world that mixes Law and Grace against Rom 11:6. You say salvation is by grace but then in the same breath you make it dependent upon choosing “ to love and obey God, keeping His commandments; “ David, if your salvation has anything to do with YOUR choosing or YOUR obedience to commandments, then I fear for you. How many commandments have you broken? I would suggest you have broken every one of them or do you have a pretty good record?
Again, like most of the religious world, you seem totally blind as to what the Saviour actually did. You say ” Jesus really has won the GIFT of Grace for everyone, but it is our choice if we wish to receive that Grace.” David, Jesus did not provide an offer of salvation. He did not “potentially” provide salvation for everyone. The ones that God gave His Son to die for are the believing ones, and they believe because God has caused them to be born again (regenerated their heart) John 3:3. You are getting the cart before the horse.. Faith is not a work that you do! Faith is the operation and work of God in you. Col 2:12. Jesus actually has saved all His people already ..Read 2 tim 1-9-10 again! Did you read this? This is an amazing truth. When did he save them? – before the foundation of the world! This was before you and I were born. All of God`s elect were not only chosen in Him before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, He also predestinated them, and they have OBTAINED the inheritance Eph 1:11. How? Christ obtained eternal redemption for us by His own blood. Do you really think that any for whom Christ shed His blood will be lost? If Christ has lost just one, then He has failed to save to some degree. However the truth is…Christ will not fail.
You say in regards to God`s grace…” there is something I can do to receive it, and then it becomes my resposibility to hold on to it “…..David, the Lord will not lose any that the Father has given Him. It is the responsibility of the Saviour to save His people – not yours. You cannot save yourself any more than you can KEEP yourself saved. Norm
Thank you David for volunteering your understanding on certain doctrines and the difficulties you faced.
I think that every man of God has to go through the maize and labyrinth to sort the good from the bad, the truth from the error.
But take courage, it is the workings of the Lord Jesus in your personal life.
I have been 28 years a disciple of Jesus Christ, and I don't belong to any denomination just like you. I belong to Jesus Christ because He bought and redeemed me with His precious blood. Praise and glory be to Jesus Christ my Lord in all my dealings and blessings!
David; I am not picking on you to tear you down, may that never be.
Though you seriously need to adjust your doctrines and understanding of Scripture, so that it is a benefit to you and to all those who listen to you.
In your writing you don't proclaim Jesus as Lord! In fact you leave the door open for another person to take the place of Jesus Christ.
You said;
In your comment after mine the first sentence; "I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever, the Spirit of Truth" we clearly have three distinctions."
Yes David, there are three distinctions, but NOT THREE PERSONS or identities.
Jesus is speaking of Himself and His Spirit!
The Spirit of Truth is the Spirit of Jesus, because Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6), and He will send or give His Spirit to abide in you forever, just as He said, that "I and my Father will come and make our abode in you (John 14:23)," that does not mean two persons or two people. It simply means that Jesus will come into you in the Spirit.
David; ALL Scripture is about JESUS, for JESUS, by JESUS and through JESUS.
JESUS is the center stage of ALL Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.
JESUS is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20), or do you think that there is another one? Certainly NOT!
Because you don't understand the Scriptures, therefore in your comments you always leave the door open for another identity to take the place of Jesus.
Look at your second sentence, "I worship God as a whole, as One, "I" Who am, or "I am".
David; that says absolutely nothing!
Who is that "One"?
Or who is the "I am"?
Or who is that God as a whole?
Perhaps you can see that when you leave JESUS out of the statement, that your comment means nothing.
All Muslims worship God as a whole, and all Jews worship the "I Am", but none of them worship JESUS.
As for me and my house we worship JESUS CHRIST alone.
You see David, you make that error in every statement, that you don't preach Jesus and neither do you give Him all the glory.
And your spirit does not say Jesus is LORD, (meaning God alone), but you leave room for another.
Also, concerning GRACE; Norm is perfectly right about GRACE, you need to sort out your understanding so that you do not mingle GRACE and WORKS. David; these things are very important!
I tell you this in hope that you might hear what the Spirit says to you.
Lots of brotherly love Paul.
Hello Norm, and Paul.
Yes Norm, I have broken God's commandments, and so I have great need of God's Grace - do you see how grace and faith differ.
From the moment of Adam's fall, God would have been working a plan of salvation.
2 Timothy, is a leter writen by one man obedient to baptism, to another man obedient to baptism, who understood baptism - Christ in them.JOHN 14 v 15 - 20, LUKE 12 v 49 - 53. MATT 3 all.
Jesus gave His life - blood - to make baptism possible, that we may choose to renew the intimate relationship with God, that we lost through Adam - the renewing of The Spirit. TITUS.
Baptism is the narrow way, the wedding supper, being clothed with The Holy Spirit GALATIANS 3 v 26 - 27, Jesus The Firstborn, we the many, if we believe Jesus' witness, and obey Him, giving Him the place of Lord within our lives, bowing our knee to His Sovereign Authority - JOHN 3 v 1 - 21.
Paul, I hope I can say that I have given Jesus the place of Lord within my life, though I will never claim to have done so well.
A friend of mine - Christian - baptized with The Holy Spirit, but not water, and hostile to water baptism, was going to take, and did take as far as I know, 33 vows to join Gwen Shaw'a ETHM; I pointed out to her, that Jesus, our Lord, Scripture, said to us that we should not vow, for we cannot make one hair black or white, and anything more than yes or no, came from the evil one - expressed through us as pride in ourself, and in others, rather than humble reliance upon God.
I hope I can say I gave Jesus the place of Lord, in that situation, kneeling to His Word and Authority; my friend claimed to have The Holy Spirit leading her, and so ignored my concerns, and ignored Scripture, Christ Jesus, her Lord, but The Holy Spirit brings no message of His Own; my Lord Jesus said do not, The Holy Spirit would never say anything to contradict Jesus, and the Teaching belongs to The Father.
Jesus has commanded us to be baptized, I longed to be baptized, and was baptized, but even then I had to argue with the Baptist minister, because I was within the Methodist church, and he was afraid my baptism, would offend my Methodist friends, who believe christening to be baptism; I hope I can say I gave Jesus the place of Lord of my life in that situation also, and many such situations have arisen.
Norm, Jesus said, "will there be faith" when he returns - if things are as you say, it makes no sense that Jesus would ever ask such a question, for He should know, if He is indeed responsible for our faith, and we play no part; and if there is no faith, then it would be entirely Jesus Own fault, not ours; but we do play a part, an essential part. Are we not told to choose life - so then it is up to us, God has made salvation possible, but it is for us to choose to participate.
Paul, I do understand what you have said about 'Trinitarians' as a denominational group not being able to call Jesus Lord in their prayer meetings; I know nothing about the group, I have read about their Roman Catholic root/link, and so I understand how the title of father/Father is given to the Pope, which is of course wrong, as is the pride and pomp of the RC church - God hates pride, whether it is in me, or in them; and of course their worship of Mary, and the saints is wrong - (the acceptable worship of God is this, that we look after the widows and orphans - God is LOVE - few understand that for us to behave as God commands, is in fact an act of worship, our Sunday meeting should really be a time of celebration, remembrance, and learning - worship is our day to day obedience). The RC church got things wrong from the outset, due to pride - the Christian faith is not a competition, or a showy display - it is a rescue mission.
Pride trips up every denomination, because there is the tendency to defend the denomination, rather than Scripture.
Norm, what do you make of this:
PHILIPIANS 2 v 12 "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." We do play a part.
Phil 2:12 is misused to strike fear into the hearts of God`s people and is commonly taught in the way you are doing so to cause men to look at themselves and their own performance. very Bad.
Remember that God is the Author and perfector of our faith Heb 12:2. Gods`s work from beginning to end so that NO flesh might glory in His presence.
Don Fortner has put this well...
No description of salvation can be found that is sweeter, more delightful, comforting, or more satisfying to our souls than that which is found in Philippians 2:12. Here the Spirit of God declares to believing sinners that God’s eternal, great, everlasting salvation is “Your Own Salvation”.
I like that! If you are saved, the salvation you have is “your own salvation”. God devised it for you. Christ purchased it for you. The Holy Spirit brought it to you and wrought it in you. It is yours forever! If you trust the Lord Jesus Christ, all that is included in that word “salvation” is your personal property and possession forever! It belongs to you by the gift of the grace of God!
Here is an admonition. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” That does not mean, “Work that you might be saved”. It means, “Work outwardly what God has worked inwardly” (Phil. 2:1-5; Matt. 5:16; Tit. 3:8, 14). Here is an assurance. “For it is God which worketh in you both to will (to desire) and to do of his good pleasure!” “Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it” (1 Thess. 5:24).
If you are saved, the salvation God has wrought in you is “your own salvation”. Look at what the Holy Spirit reveals to you, if you are a believer, about “your own salvation” in Ephesians 1:12-14. Here we read that it is the purpose of God…
Norm
Norm, this may not be a good analogy of Grace - but here we go - here in the UK, medical help is free at the point of need, and is available to all; it is help in waiting - but, we need to seek the help it offers when we need it. If we will never seek help, it is as though it was not ever there.
I once said to a colleague, a none christian young man, that if I was to tell him that I have put a five pound note on the dinner room table for him, and he believed me, and thanked me, but never went to get that five pound note, then although he believed me, and thanked me for that five pound note, and considered it his, it never actually became his, because he never went to get it - and that it was the same for the work that God has done for us through Jesus Christ. The young man understood what I meant.
We need to understand that Grace, is the relaxing of God's Law, I say relaxing, because Death is still awaiting those who reject Jesus, and His saving Work; but instead of Death making his claim against us all, Jesus Who overcame Death, and holds the keys of Authority, now hands the disobedient over to Death, rather than Death having a claim against us all, for Grace has been given to the faithful, loving, and obedient - obedience does not mean you never get anything wrong Norm - "If anyone has bathed, he needs only to wash his feet." - baptism (bathed), and continued repentance (allegrical washing of feet) - i.e "please forgive me Lord, I was wrong to have done that/said that" - if your brother has anything against you, first go and put things right between you and him.
Grace has not only come, it is in operation every moment of every day - Grace is forgiveness - "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."
One of the most wonderful sentences in any language, is "I am sorry, please forgive me."
Paul, you mentioned 2 THESSALONIANS 2, it is my sincere belief that the powerful deception is the 'Toronto Blessing,' that is at this moment testing the sincerity of the baptized church World wide - see also DEUTERONOMY 13 all. And see also MATTHEW 13 v 37 - 43. Liken MATT 13 all, to the book of JOEL.
God chose us all, but not all have chosen God; salvation requires the agreement of both God, and man.
Norm, what did Paul, no, not you Paul, but the Apostle Paul, mean by this - "of which I became a minister according to the GIFT of the GRACE of God given to me by the effective working of His power."
"given to me by the effective working of His power."
We know of Paul, his early life, and his repentance, and baptism.
GALATIANS 3 v 26 - 27.
Our obedience to be baptized, is a test of our sincerity.
It was an act of Grace (though limited), that God told Moses to make a bronze serpent for the people to look at, but it was an act of faith, that people looked, with hope, and thanksgiving. Grace was there for them, but it became theirs by their faith to look, those who would not look, died.
JOHN 3 v 26 - 36.
ACTS 2 all - v 36 - 41.
Norm, as a young person (christian - I now know I wasn't, but thought I was), I thought I shared in God's Grace, because I 'believed,' but as I grew older, I began to question just what it meant to 'believe,' and believing came alive - and believing meant doing as I was commanded, with faith, hope, and love. Giving Jesus the place He deserves in my life, that of Lord, and Saviour.
David,
you say God has "made salvation possible, but it is for us to choose to participate.".
This common notion is absolutely ridiculous. I have already given you scripture that Jesus did not simply make salvation "possible" but has actually saved all His people. What is it that you don`t get about what Jesus has already fully achieved? It shows you don`t have the faintest idea about the person and accomplished work of the Saviour. This is serious so i must be serious to you and use stern words.
Your god is not big enough David. Why? because your god is subservient to the will of man. Your jesus can`t save anybody without their concent. This is an insult to our omnipotent God who sits in the heavens and does all He pleases - psalm 115:3.
I pray the Spirit will cause you to stop and think before you come out with this silly nonsense again. You are magnifying one of the ordinances (baptism) and think it is the heart when in fact, like others on this blog, the Gospel of Christ Crucified does not come out of your mouth. You are fixated with righteous acts of the flesh which you do rather than the perfect and only righteousness that has been made by the Saviour for His people. Norm
"The fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom."
Norm, we are talking about a respectful fear of God, not something that should ever be thought badly of.
"To he who has, more shall be given, and to he who has not, even what he has shall be taken from him." - WISDOM
We can come boldly before the throne of God, but should we not fear Him; I shall fear Him, with a respectful fear and love.
If we show respectful fear and love towards ministers and denominations, and people do, falling at the feet of the Pope for example, does God not deserve the same respect from us.
Norm, take a look at ACTS 10 v 1 - 4. Such fear is spelt L O V E.
Baptism isn't works Norm, it is faith; obedience isn't oppression, it is love.
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
It simply means we should respectfully fear God for Who He is, and test our own faith and behaviour to see that we are being sincere (Ananias and Sapphira failed to fear and respect God, and it cost them dearly).
2 CORINTHIANS 13 v 5 - 6. is telling us to do the same as work out your own faith with fear and trembling - which simply means be honest with both God and ourselves.
It is very important Norm, that we understand that to fear God, is to respect God. We do not fear God because He is a horrible monster, He is not, we fear God, because of our own sinful nature, by which we can and do so easily offend God, Who is pure.
If we can find, and understand a respectful fear for so very many other people and offices, then it is about time we afforded The God of this World, and of our lives, a little fearful respect also - He is our God, there is none higher.
Our lives are in His hands.
What is the difference between believers, and unbelievers; is it good works, no, for even the wicked give good gifts, and love those who love them; the only difference is faith - faith borne out in our actions, not of good works, but of obedience.
Norm, if baptism is good works, then so too must the taking of bread and wine be good works, and a confession of faith must be good works, but they are not.
Norm, if you met John saying repent and be baptized, for the forgiveness of your sins, would you reply to him, I do not need to John, Grace is free, not by works.
Do unto others, that which you would wish others to do to you - good works.
You must be born again, water, and Spirit, - faith - but not good works. Obedience, not sacrifice.
You do not have to have faith to do good works, you do have to have faith to receive from God His GIFTS, via baptism.
"The Author, and finisher of our faith."
Norm:
"Author" - see ROMANS 10 v 13 - 21.
see JOHN 1 v 1 - 18.
see JOHN 3 v 10 - 15.
"Finisher - see JOHN 16 v 1 - 15.
see ROMANS 8 v 9.
LUKE 6 v 39 - 40.
MATTHEW 3 v 14 - 17.
2 TIMOTHY 2 v 11 - 19. or in other words - work out your own salvation - i.e we are all to cast a critical eye upon our docrine and behaviour, to see that we are in the faith, and not misled, and misleading.
I am sorry to have angered you Norm.
If it is all the responsibility of Jesus, Norm, does that not also make all errors His fault?
Norm.
Do you really feel that I have made God subservient to man (or to me), surely by being expected to play our part, and be faithful to be baptized, as commanded, we are therefore made subservient to God - assuming we have received freely, everything we WANT, at no cost or effort to ourselves, like a child in a candy store, surely that places God as subservient to us Norm.
Norm, I do not know what else to say; if Jesus and The Gospel He brought to us means so very much to us, why do we struggle so, to accept the resposibility He (Jesus) places upon us - and He does hold us resposible - Grace is God's Gift to us, but faith is our gift to God.
We love God only because He first loved us, and made His love known to us.
If I had never known about God, then how could I love Him.
But also, if God has chosen me as some kind of pawn, to make me love and obey Him, just where is the reward for God in that; God wants me to choose to love Him, having heard The Gospel declared.
God can do whatever He wants to do Norm - but we cannot, we "must do" what we are commanded to do by our Lord - can we call Him Lord if we will not do so? I would say not.
MATTHEW 5 v 6. MATTHEW 3 v 14 - 17.
ROMANS 6 v 1 - 4. but read all.
If Christianity was illegal, would there be enough evidence against us, to convict us - I heard that said by someone recently, and it really made me think - for if the prosecution was using Scripture to convict us - could they, would they be able to?
Norm, what does it mean to be a Christian:
Jesus wasn't called 'Christ,' until AFTER His baptism - why - because it was His baptism with The Holy Spirit that revealed Him to be The 'Christ' - meaning The Anointed One - The baptism with The Holy Spirit being The Anointing.
JOHN 1 v 29 - 34. LUKE 4 v 16 - 21.
Christ - means anointed/anointing.
The Christ - means The Anointed One - Jesus.
Jesus Christ - means Jesus The Anointed One.
Christian - means an anointed one - you or I.
Christians - means anointed ones - us - if we are anointed - baptized with The Holy Spirit, attested to with the miracle of tongues.
2 CORINTHIANS 13 v 5 - 6.
1 JOHN 2 v 18 - 29. 5 v 13.
MATTHEW 3 v 11.
LUKE 12 v 50.
JOHN 3 v 1 - 21.
May God bless His Word to all of us, and draw near to us, as we draw near to Him.
Hello Norm. Can I please leave you with this piece of Scripture:
HEBREWS 2 v 1 - 4.
If we can neglect salvation, clearly our salvation is our own responsibility, made possible by Jesus, but sought from our own free will - love.
HEBREWS 12 v 1 - 6.
DEUTERONOMY 30 v 10 - 20.
It is our choice Norm.
Thanks again David;
Some questions for you.
What do you think Jesus would say if you walked up to Him and said:
'Now I am going to make you lord of my life'?
'Not before' but NOW I'm going to receive you'?
'Now you have to save me because I have been obedient and got dipped in water (baptized)'?
'Not before, but now you have to save me, because I have done everything you said'?
What do you think Jesus would say to that?
One more question;
Did you make this other person, not Jesus but the other one whom you call father also lord in your life?
Hello again Paul.
I am a little concerned that I am getting people's backs up Paul - it is not my intention.
I will try to answer your question as best I can from my standpoint, oh, and that reminds me, Norm gave me a piece of Scripture which spoke of The Mind of Christ, and I was going to reply with just two short Scriptures that revealed to us a little of The Mind of Christ, that being: MATTHEW 3 v 13 - 17, and JOHN 3 v 1 - 21. And I would like to include MATTHEW chs 5/6/7 the 'Beatitudes.' If this same 'mind' - attitude - belief - opinion - character - nature - becomes our own - salvation is ours, but we must also endure to the end, for we cannot crucify Jesus Christ a second time - HEBREWS 6 v 1 - 6. (vrese 1 and 2 should be poignant to us).
Anyway, back to your questions Paul.
Whether I acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord or not, He still is Lord, it is the position He holds over all of us - whether we acknowledge Him or not, a position given to Him by His Father Who has placed everything under His feet, because of the victorious faith and obedience of Jesus (yes I know Paul, that introduces a distinction again between Father, and Jesus The Son, I am not trying to be belligerant, but the distinction is one that Jesus Himself made - PHILIPPIANS 2 v 3 - 11.)
Paul, not until the second resurection will all people bow the knee to Jesus and confess (admit/acknowledge) that He is Lord, and it will not be because they want to, it will simply be because they see for themselves that it is so - there will be weeping, and wailing, their acknowledgment will be a frightening realization, not and act of faith, and they will bow their knee because they are made to accept Jesus' judgement, not in worshipful submission to Him.
So then, that establishes that Jesus Christ is The Lord - in fact The King of kings (King above all other kings), and Lord of lords (Lord above all other lords), and many Christians have lost their lives at the hands of lords and kings, because they would not deny Jesus - their Lord and King.
Jesus is Lord - but what makes Him my Lord - the answer is very very very very simple - if I give (and it is for me to give, Jesus does not snatch this position), If I give Jesus the place of Lord within my life, then I will by free will and free choice (desire), bow my knee (humble myself - deny self), and with love, accept Jesus' Authority (Word - witness) over my life (we are either for Him, or against Him, but it is our choice - Jesus does not press gang us into His service), and so do as Jesus commands me that I "must do," with love and thanksgiving - knowing, that it is for my good, that I may know His love, His GRACE, and saving work - i.e, Salvation, rescue.
At the birth of the Gospel, baptism always initiated the Christian life (HEBREWS 6 v 1 - 2); it is not so today within many churches, excepting child christening which is a man-made tradition, and deceitful, misleading. A true understanding of repentence, and new life, is really mising from the church, replaced by proud assumption, snatching God's GIFTS, rather than seeking God's GIFTS; and yet we cannot snatch from God, so therefore we must not have what we claim to have.
"If you love Me ............."
I need not fill in the rest, we know what Jesus said.
What does Jesus say about His position of Lord of our lives, for this is what really matters - "Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and yet do not what I tell you."
Jesus is Lord whether we do what He tells us or not; but Jesus only becomes my beloved Lord, when I give Him that place within my heart and mind, and choose to obey Him, believing His witness to be TRUE.
BUT - not only Christians do good works, far far from it; but only Christians are faithful to Jesus as Lord, and keep His commandments - "You must be born again." JOHN 3 v 1 - 21. If we believe Him, and love Him, and give Him the place of Lord of our lives; we will obey Him. MARK 16 v 15 - 20. JOHN 14 v 15 - 20.
Paul, I do not see The Trinity as perhaps you think I may.
I have used the term "person of The Holy Spirit," before, as to refer to The Holy Spirit as "It", is disrespectful, as He is a conscious Spiritual Being, not an object, and I agree with that entirely, knowing it to be true.
Trying to answer your question Paul, I have been thinking about the tranfiguration, and many other events in search of an answer; but the fact remains that I cannot deny Jesus' Own separate will, and physical life, distinct from that of God The Father, Who dwelt within Jesus. Yes The fulness of The Deity dwelt within Jesus - God dwelt within Jesus, and Jesus was the expression of God - but Paul, with the exception of being a begotten son of God, and apart from the position of Authority that Jesus has as The ONLY begotten Son of God, all born again (baptized) Christians have the identical relatioship with God as Jesus Himself, that of God dwelling within us by His Word (mind), and Spirit - that does not make me, David, God, but rather a child of God; Jesus was The Firstborn, we are the many, if we obey, and seek baptism - an event for which Jesus gave His Life. There are many more people who believe they are Christians Paul, than there are Christians, and it BREAKS MY HEART!
MATTHEW 15 v 1 - 14.
MATTHEW 21 v 23 - 32.
It is not the saying of the words Paul, as I know you realize; it is the truth of the statement, and as Paul (Apostle) was trying to point out, apart from obedience to be baptized, and receiving within us God's Own Holy Spirit (His GIFT to give, not ours to snatch, or assume), it just is not true of us to say Jesus is Lord - what of those people who do not know this - "the shepherds who destroy My people." People are being destroyed by false doctrine, it is a fact. People who claim faith in Jesus are being lost daily.
Jesus is both Man, and God; The fullness of The Godhead dwelt/dwells within Him, Father, Son (WORD), and Holy Spirit.
But Paul, I cannot say Jesus is The Father God, to The exclusion of The Father God, for it is not what Jesus said of Himself.
Yes, to know Jesus, was to know The Father, and to know The Spirit also; ever heard of the expression - "like father like son."
Jesus was God, in the image of Man, and as such I can say Jesus is God incarnate, Emmanuel - God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit; but it still remains that Jesus made the distinction that - JOHN 14 v 1 - 28. "For My Father is greater than I."
Is Jesus, God The Father, most definately not, no, He is The Son of God, and The Father dwells within Him; if Jesus was not born of the flesh, but was Spirit only, then I could say Jesus is The Father, but that is not the case, God has not called Himself Jesus, but has called His Son Jesus, and has made His home within the Temple that is Jesus, His Son, His Christ.
Please explain JOHN 14 v 28 to me Paul, for I would have thought this truth to be inescapable.
Whoever rejects Jesus, rejects The Father, because - "These Words are not Mine, they belong to The Father Who sent Me."
It seems clear Paul - JOHN 16 v 23 - 32.
ACTS 2 v 36.
Who is my Father? God is my Father, for He has given me His Holy Spirit, the 'promise' of The Father - ACTS 1 v 4 - 8.
As I have sought Him, according to His Word which has been delivered to us by His Son, He has been faithful to reward my faith in Him, and obedience to His Word.
Jesus is my Lord, and my Brother, as I accept His teaching, and share with Him the fruits of His Gospel.
The Spirit of God dwells within me, to lead, guide, and empower me, that my life may bear witness to The Kingdom (Power, and Authority) of God, as a child of God, born again by His Word, and Spirit.
JOHN 3 v 27.
LUKE 12 v 49 - 53.
JOHN 3 v 1 - 21.
MATTHEW 7 v 13 - 29.
2 CORINTHIANS 13 v 5 - 6.
What more can I say Paul.
Paul, I hope Jesus would say to me "well done," but we all hope that do we not.
You can imagine just how unpopular I am for telling people that we must be baptized, when so many thought they only had to 'believe.' And I have not found it easy.
Norm, everything I have said revolves around the crucifiction, and the Blood of Jesus, for apart from Jesus' death to atone for our sin, and so win GRACE for us, everything else would be lost; no Blood - would mean no GRACE, no BAPTISM, no HOPE, just judgment, and death.
Through baptism we can regain the relationship with God that we lost through Adam's fall. Hence, Satan is doing all that he can to corrupt baptism, for he knows the power of it.
Jesus gave His Life that we may be baptized.
Norm, when it comes to woking out our own salvation with fear and trembling:
LUKE 12 v 4 - 5.
REVELATION 14 v 7.
Such respectful fear is right, not wrong.
If Jesus is our Lord, we will do what He tells us to do; because we love Him, trust Him, and respect Him.
"Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord." Some with joy, and celebration; others with weeping, and wailing.
Coose life.
David; I know your intentions are good and that you would honor God every way possible.
Forgive me; but Norm was right to say that you put the cart before the horse.
Just relax David and remember that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Also know that the Lord Jesus will's good for you and not bad.
It is Jesus Christ in you who is working to cleanse you from the inside just as He does with me.
Of course we all don't like that process, because it hurts our hyper inflated spiritual EGO!
As it is we have too many red herrings in our debate (so to speak).
We are talking about the doctrine of God, grace, salvation, baptism etc. all at the one time.
That way we will never come to the knowledge of the truth, but get tangled up in throwing Scripture verses at one another and achieve nothing.
I'm sure that we all have a Bible and believe every word to be the Word of God.
Therefore let's go a step at the time.
First, I chose the doctrine of God, because that is the most important doctrine which is above all the other doctrines, and on that doctrine no one should err.
(Mark 12:29) "The most important one is this: Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."
Remember Jesus said that! And He did NOT say that He is TWO.
David; you are saying that the Lord our God is TWO.
You are saying that the Father and Jesus are TWO.
That is contrary to Jesus!
Who do you think is right here, Jesus or you?
Either Jesus is deceived or you are deceived!
Please tell me.
(First step.)
David, everything you are saying is bad because your gospel has the wrong foundations!
You say ”If we can neglect salvation, clearly our salvation is our own responsibility, made possible by Jesus, but sought from our own free will - love.”
David, this statement is salvation by works …it is the common heresy of today`s religious world, and is damning heresy. If your Salvation is your responsibility to any degree, then to that degree you have saved yourself. There is no getting around this. It is the heresey of self-righteousness, the yeast of the Pharasees, just a little bit of the yeast of self-righteousness Mark 8:15. I can only conclude that the Lord has not seen fit to show you your utter destitution and inability of self.
If the Lord had shown you your inability then you would not claim such such things.
All false religion makes salvation to be ultimately dependent upon and determined by the worth, work, or will of the sinner; whereas true religion declares, with Jonah, “Salvation is of the Lord!” In its planning, in its purchase, in its performance, in its preservation, and in its perfection, salvation is of the Lord. Jon 2:9.
Scripture is AGAINST you David;
You say salvation was made possible by Jesus – but scripture says He has already saved His people 2 Tim 1:9-10 Jesus never left it open to possibility. You say salvation is somehow dependent upon your own free will – but scripture says it is not Rom 9:16. "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
Who am I going to believe David? You or the scriptures?
Please back to your bible and pray that God would open your eyes and heart to the true Gospel of God`s free Grace in Jesus Christ. I can give you some links to help you to start again from basics if you are willing. Norm
Paul, the Nation of Israel from time to time dabbled with other gods, and were mindful of the many Egyption gods; "The Lord our God, The Lord is One," a single Soveriegn God, not a menagerie of gods, is something Jesus wanted to make sure was understood.
Divisions within the Jewish Nation were problematic Paul wern't they, and Jesus wanted to make sure people understood that God is One, and not divided, nor many.
Paul, please could you explain JOHN 14 v 28, please, it may help us.
God is One Paul - He is "I" - He is "I am."
But just as I have a mind/spirit, a voice, and my spirit finds expression through my body; so too God has a Mind/Will, Voice/Word, and Spirit through Whom He "does what He Wills to do."
I am one Paul, and God is One, but the mind, apart from a voice, has no expression, and apart from the body, can do nothing.
Norm, in all seriousness, do I really sound like a Pharisee?
LUKE 7 v 24 - 35.
luke 20 v 1 - 8.
MATTHEW 23 all - specfically v 13.
Do I in all sincere honestly sound like a Pharisee Norm?
JOHN 8 v 28 - 47.
LUKE 11 v 28.
I think I would make a bad Pharisee Norm.
I was once a Pharisee, Norm, brought up to believe I was a child of God, apart from doing anything He has commanded us to do, but God did indeed open my eyes to the error Norm, and I realize I was the product of denomination, not the product of God's Word, but of men's word, and men's traditions. MARK 7 v 5 - 16.
You misunderstand 'works,' and 'faith' Norm; may I ask you Norm - is you love of God a good work, or is it faith - verse 13 of MATTHEW 23 should help you see the difference.
Are we told Abraham's actions with Isaac were credited to him as a good works? No, but as 'faith.' If Abraham had made Isaac a cup of tea whilst they waited, that would be a good work.
You need to understand Norm, that good works are done towards fellow men, and creation (animals, environment).
Acts of faith are between you and God alone.
And you do not need to be a 'Christian' to do good works!!!!!
If baptism is undertaken with insincerity, as a 'work,' the person knows, and God knows; there is no fooling Him. He knows our heart and mind, our every intention.
HEBREWS 11 v 17 - 18. GENESIS 22 v 12. There is that fear again Norm.
I hope I can say Jesus is my Foundation Norm; have I spoken my word, or God's Word, if you test what I have said with Scripture, is it not borne out in Scripture, it is my hope that it is indeed borne out in Scripture.
No one can receive anything unless it is has been given to him from Heaven - JOHN 3 v 27 - but read the whole chapter to gain understanding of context.
"Ask, and it shall be given unto you, seek and you shall find."
It still sounds to me like we have a part to play Norm - we do have a part play Norm.
God does not need my permission to save me Norm (He gave His Life for Me without asking me first); but He most certainly does need my cooperation to be able to save me, or will He drag me kicking and screaming into His Kingdom?
Being in the presence of God used to very dangerous, deadly; but now, because of God's GRACE, Norm, that we gained through Jesus' obedient Life, and crucfiction, it has become possible for God to dwell within us by His Spirit, The same Spirit that killed the firstborn of Eygpt, parted the Red Sea, created the manna, was cloud by day, fire by night, and The Glory upon the Mercy Seat, who created a conception within Mary, gave life to Lazarus, healed the sick, cast out demons, gave tongues, visions, prophecy, wisdom, and will raise us to life, after death; and how do we receive Him to dwell within us Norm? Your Lord says it is by baptism.
"If you know how to give good gifts, how much more will you Father in Heaven give His Spirit to those who ask of Him."
ACTS 8 v 12 - 24.
No, I do not make a good Pharisee,Norm.
Norm, do you really not see that the Pharisees were self-righteous because they felt they had no need of baptism - no need for Jesus' work of salvation, which is His Gospel.
We fail to understand baptism - it is the point at which God gives, and we receive, as we ask, and seek.
Jesus died to make baptism possible. It is the narrow gate through which we enter into His Kingdom - no not Heaven - but His Authority, Rule - 'Power' ACTS 1 v 4 -8.
ACTS 19 v 13 - 16. - AUTHORITY -
"Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"
MARK 16 v 15 - 20.
John was the greatest of all the Prophets, yet his only, and concise message was - "Repent, and be baptized."
Oh, I have just remembered Paul, when Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." It can be compared to:
Father/Mind/Will/ - WAY.
Son/Word/Teacher/ - TRUTH.
Spirit/Master Craftsman/Power/ - Life.
I do not know what else to say - I will try not to be like the Pharisees, Norm.
Norm, I was reading through your comment again, and thought of this:
If I am being swept away by a river (the World) , and drowning, and God reaches out His hand to save me, but I will not, could, but will not reach out my hand towards God, can He then save me; and if I do reach my hand out to God, have I then saved myself? If God had not stretched His hand out to help me (GRACE), I could not be saved, as there is no one to save me, but if I will not stretch out my hand to God, I will not to be saved, and as such cannot be saved, though salvation drew near to me.
It is by GRACE that we are saved, through faith, but what is faith, faith in what, faith to do what - repent and be baptized, "you must be born again." No need Lord, I have faith.....in something.
The constant misuse of JOHN 3 v 16, has done INCREDIBLE damage to the Christian Church, when it is JOHN 3 v 1 - 15, that bears witness to what it is Jesus is asking us to believe, as well as being a rebuke of Nicodemus's disbelief, and lack of understanding as a teacher of Israel.
Norm - LUKE 7 v 29 - 35.
ISAIAH 65 v 2.
What is the Christian doctrine?
Repentance - (a sense of shame and regret), baptisms, and love; that is it.
It is frightening what men have done to God's Gospel isn't it.
1 CORINTHIANS 1 v 10 - 31. Amen.
Norm - Titus 3 v 1 - 7.
Baptism causes division, some will, others wont; it is difficult when the division is within the family, it becomes very painful.
LUKE 12 v 49 - 53.
"Who is My mother, brother, sister......those who do the Will of My Father in Heaven."
Norm, I do not understand your use of ROMANS 9 v 16.
We know how Esau behaved - HEBREWS 12 v 15 - 17. (10 virgins is an example, 5 wise, 5 foolish).
Baptism, and the relationship it establishes between ourselves and God, is our birthright Norm - let us not despise it.
ROMANS 8 v 28 - 39. BUT - "If you love Me........" - JOHN 14 v 15 - 20. but read chs 14/15.
1 CORINTHIANS 2 v 9 - 16.
HEBREWS 12 v 3 - 8.
Norm - read all of PROVERBS 8. specifically v 17. Then consider Esau again.
Norm, 2 TIMOTHY 1 v 9 - 10. I am not sure what you think this Scripture is saying, and if we start from verse 5 to gain context, it affirms what I have been saying, see verses 6 and 7, and ponder there meaning; was Timothy's baptism just good works? Was Paul's laying on of hands just good works?
"Through The Gospel," - it must be something we learn, that we may participate in God's purpose, and Grace - if what you say is true Norm, I need NOT even know God, to receive His salvation. Verse 13 reveals a responsibility of ours Norm, a role we play.
"In Christ Jesus," is a term Paul developed from Jesus' words when talking about baptism with The Holy Spirit - see JOHN 14 v 20.
"by The Holy Spirit Who dwells in us" - both Paul and Timothy were baptized - 2 CORINTHIANS 13 v 5 - 6.
You put a smile on my face Paul, by quoting: ROMANS 8.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus........"
It was nice to consider those words of encouragement that Paul spoke to us - but let us look at where they came from:
"In Christ Jesus," a term developed by Paul, from Jesus' words as recorded in JOHN 14 v 20 - "at that day (in the upper room on the day of Pentecost), you will KNOW that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." - hence - "In Christ Jesus." "In Christ." "Christ in us." ("Or do you not know that your body is a temple of The Holy Spirit Who is in you,..." 1 CORINTHIANS 6 v 19.)
ACTS 1 v 4 - 8. WOW!
The coming of The Holy Spirit was of course what happened that day, as the disciples received the same anointing - baptism - as Jesus Himself, attested to with the God given GIFT of tongues - there is a day of Pentecost for all of us - if believe and obey, seek, and ask.
Thank-you Lord.
Paul said there is therefore now no condemnation, because Jesus said - MARK 16 v 15 - 20.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,..." - baptized - "No one can say Jesus is Lord, except by The Holy Spirit."
It brings us full circle.
I am the same person you said had a decent understanding of The Trinity, Norm; yet now everything I say is bad?
David.
David,
Is baptism a necessary requirement for salvation? Norm
Hello Norm.
Yes, baptism is necessary for salvation.
David, i am assuming you are saying that water baptism is required for salvation.
Was the thief on the cross saved? the Lord said he was. Norm
Norm.
The moment we receive God's baptism with His Holy Spirit - is the moment we become a new creation "In Christ Jesus," it is the point of being born again - now anointed, by God Himself - it is not something we can do of ourselves, it is something we seek God for, via baptism, and it is God Who gives to us.
ok David,
lets try again...
Is water baptism a requirement for salvation?
Norm
Hello Norm, just seen your last comment.
"The thief on the cross."
It is an argument that many people use to decry baptism.
What kind of God do we worship Norm?
"God is love."
Some say the thief on the cross was already baptized in water - that could be true, there was a period of three years in which he could have responded to the call to be baptized, and he clearly cared about his behaviour, and openly admitted his error.
He stole Norm, what he stole, we do not know, it may have been very little, and may have been taken for good reason, we just do not know; but it doesn't mean he had no previous knowledge of Jesus, or that he had not been baptized in water - Peter was baptized, yet denied Jesus three times, and cut off a man's ear - good job we have God's GRACE Norm isn't it.
But, I am going to assume the thief was NOT baptized in water, Norm.
God is love, and we are told to rend our hearts, not our clothes; and are told that God is looking for a circumcision of the heart.
God is NOT an unloving, nasty, fool, on that we can agree. God is NOT unjust, on that we can agree also, and as you told me Norm, God can do what He wants to do, and on that we can agree.
The thief admitted (confessed) he was in the wrong, and acknowledged Jesus' Authority, and Righteousness; something many 'Christians' do not do.
The thief expressed his belief in Who Jesus was, so he must have heard of Jesus, other than the mocking he would have heard on that day.
So, the thief belived in Jesus' witness, His Gospel, to the degree that he had heard it - faith comes by hearing.
Would then, the thief have been baptized in water if he could have been, the answer is yes, and Jesus, Who knows the hearts and minds of people, knew it.
So, God is loving, and not a nasty fool; would God withhold His GRACE from a man that would be baptized, if only he could be?
The man was nailed to a piece of wood, and under guard, he was going nowhere - he was there to die, and die he would.
There is a huge difference between would, but cannot; and can, but will not; and God takes notice of a man's heart, mind, intention.
John said to the Pharisees - "You brood of vipers (just out of interest - "the poison of asps is upon their lips"), who warned you to flee from the rath to come? (baptism clearly achieves something Norm).
Therefore bear fruit worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, 'we have Abraham as our father'....."
MATTHEW 3 v 7 - 10.
Norm, if a man is baptized insincerely, and remains insincere; will he receive GRACE, whilst a sincere man, who is unable to be baptized, is denied GRACE. GRACE is God's GIFT to give Norm, and God is not unjust.
But what does it say to God about our sincerity, and love for Him, when we can be baptized, but refuse to be?
It screams out our self-righteouness, and insincerity, and God sees it. The God Who tests all hearts, and minds, is watching intently, and nothing escapes His gaze. LUKE 7 v 28 - 35. LUKE 20 v 1 - 8.
Would - but can't.
Could - but wont.
God knows the difference, there is no fooling Him.
If we can be baptized in water, but we refuse to be, it tells God all He needs about us; that our pride is not yet defeated, and we have failed to recognize our need of God.
And Norm, as for the dead - they have heard the very same Gospel as we have, for Jesus preached His Gospel to dead, whilst He was with them, and led captivity captive (saved those who would accept His Gospel, GIVING to them the same GIFT of The Holy Spirit as He has given to us, that they too may receive salvation, and be raised to life a new at His return).
JOHN 5 v 24 - 29.
1 PETER 4 v 6 - 7.
If we can, but we wont, it tells God all He needs to know about us.
MATTHEW 3 v 13 - 17.
David.
Norm;
You said to David, "If your salvation is your responsibility to any degree, then to that degree you have saved yourself."
Perhaps that might be a slip of your tongue?
I think that you know that a man cannot be saved to a degree, either he is totally saved or totally lost.
I can see that you understand grace in salvation, a big AMEN to that.
As to the doctrine of God, the Lord Jesus requires from you that you also repent from your OTHER God, and there is also no getting around this.
Sorry Norm, I am not quite able to keep up with a reply.
Norm, Scripture says:
LUKE 7 v 28 - 35. - "with the baptism of John." - i.e, water.
The Holy Spirit had not yet come, this Scripture speaks only of water baptism.
See also MATTHEW 3 v 13 - 17.
David.
David;
I must admit, you are a master of avoiding the question.
You surely would make a good politician. :-)
Don’t get me wrong, I understand what you are talking about and in due time I will answer all your questions and Scriptures.
Again I agree with Norm for saying that your foundations are wrong, and whatever you build on wrong foundations will be wrong.
If I give you answers to Scriptures on your wrong foundation would be futile, so first we will establish the right foundation.
David, think of it as the Lord Jesus is speaking to you and not Paul G.
The first commandment of the Lord demands that you have NO OTHER God next of the Lord your God.
But as it is, David and Norm you have another God next to Jesus Christ the Lord.
That is a serious transgression of the first commandment of the Lord.
Please don't quote a hundred Scriptures to justify your sin.
If you CONFESS (say) your sin, only then you will you be cleansed of that transgression against the Lord.
(Still the first step) and we need to hear you saying that.
Remember, first Confession after repentance.
You cannot repent unless you first have acknowledged your transgression.
Hello Paul.
I do not think I could find a Scripture to defend my sin, Scripture is without sin.
Perhaps I could misuse and twist Scripture to try to hide sin, but I have no desire to do that, and if we care to test what is said, we can discern the Truth, with God'd Help.
A Politician hey - I think I had better sick to farming, Paul.
You know, people gave their lives that we may have a Bible of our own, to hold within our own hands, and written in our own language; Protestant children being forced to light the pyres on which their parents were to be burned alive, for daring to seek such a thing.
We owe them our thanks, for our debate could not exist if it was not for their endeavours.
David.
Paul.
JOHN 17 v 16 - 26.
LUKE 22 v 25 - 32. Just out of interest Paul, Who did Jesus pray to?
But isn't it amazing the relationship Jesus/God (don't tell me off Paul, I know what I mean), has made possible for us - JOHN 14 v 12 - 14.
So what has gone wrong Paul - MATTHEW 13 v 37 - 43.
Thanks brother, I'm glad that you let off some steam (so to speak).
Perhaps now we might be able to sort out some differences.
I also am grateful to the Lord for the mighty man of God, who ploughed the fields before us, but now it's our turn David, and it's great to see that you are zealous for the Lord. I wish that all the churches would be as zealous for the Lord as you are.
Your question (John 17:16-26) and (Luke 22:25-32), remember I said that in time I will explain all those passages and more. I think those passages are a stumbling block to you, because you read them with a false presupposition, you think that Jesus was talking to another person or another God.
If that would be so, then Jesus would not be the Lord God the Almighty the creator of heaven and earth.
(Eph. 4:5).
'There is ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.'
Note, it does not say 'TWO baptisms'.
Neither does it say 'TWO Lords', meaning two gods.
But the Word of God says "ONE".
David; the whole world is constantly lying, and the truth they do not know.
You are in this world, but not of it, therefore let your yes be yes and no be no.
ONE does not mean TWO!
If you believe in Jesus PLUS in another, then you believe in two gods.
That would make you a Polytheist, a pagan or simply deceived.
Please read my previous post.
Perhaps you might like a good analogy?
Trinity allegory
Hello Paul.
Zeal needs to be tempered with Truth, Paul; and Truth is hard to find.
David.
Hello Paul.
EPHESIANS 4 v 1 - 6. Paul, the context of this Scripture, was unity in The Spirit (baptism of The Holy Spirit), as revealed in verse 1 to 3.(see ch 3 also).
(chapter 3 v 14. just out of interest.)
One Lord (Jesus), One Faith (One Truth - there are it seems, now around thirty thousand seperate Christian denominations), One baptism (One Holy Spirit).
Paul was reminding the Ephesian Church, that there is just One Holy Spirit with which they were all baptized, and was teaching them to "endeavour to keep the unity of The Spirit in the bond of peace."
Paul was not saying there is only one baptism to the exclusion of water baptism; just to remeber that there is one baptism of The Holy Spirit, and it is The same Holy Spirit with which they were all baptized.
HEBREWS 6 v 1 - 2. - "baptisms."
JOHN 3 v 1 - 5.
MATTHEW 3 v 11 - 17.
ACTS 8 v 12 - 17. verses 29 - 40.
ACTS 10 all.
ACTS 19 v 1 - 6.
We know there are two batisms Paul, John's baptism, or water, and Jesus' baptism, or Spirit; but the Apostle Paul was talking specifically of The Holy Spirit, when he said that to the baptized Church at Ephesus. Paul was not saying there is only one baptism, so either water, or Spirit, but not both, he was saying there was just one baptism with The Holy Spirit, and they all received The same Spirit, so be at peace with each other. Like wise there is just One Faith, so be in agreement with each other, for we follow One Lord, The same Lord (Jesus).
"Lord," is a generic term Paul, that can be used towards many many people, and is; whether it is the Lord of the manor, or the Lord Chancellor, or Lord God, or Lord Jesus, it is the extra information provided by the words manor, Chancellor, God, or Jesus, that gives us the most important information to understand the position, and the power the "Lord" has over us.
"Lord God," - to us, Christians, our God is our "Lord," He is not "Lord" to others, Who do not recognize Him as "Lord," He is "Lord" to us, that is our relationship to God, our Father, Saviour, friend, and Lord.
Yes God is The Lord of The World, but not the whole World treat Him as such, and it is this that is at the centre of my point - there is a big differance between Lord God, and our beloved, cherished, "Lord God," Whom we willingly call Him "Lord," and desire to know and follow Him. The word "Lord" in such an instance, is a title we lovingly address God with, "Lord God," "Lord Jesus," the use of "Lord" in both instances does not mean we are making a claim of there being two God's, but that our God is to us our "Lord," ("Why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not that which I tell you to do." - why call Me Lord, and not obey Me as a Lord), and His Son Jesus Christ is also to us, a "Lord," our "Lord," our beloved "Lord," we are not claiming there is two Lords (God's), but rather that each are to us "Lord," one with authority over ourselves, Who's Authority we accept, with faith, hope, and love.
Paul, I really do not see The Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as I fear you think I do.
David.
David,
you have said that you are going to assume the thief was NOT baptized in water," .
When you are talking about baptism, you should make it clear to readers the definition of what you are calling baptism so there is no confusion as to what you are saying.
If the baptism you are talking about all the time is purely of a"spiritual nature" then i agree that this is necessary for believers. Believers must be of the Spirit. Spiritual things are the only things that matter in the end.
However, if you are insisting that salvation is not possible without "water baptism" by immersion as well, then the thief is solid evidence against you by your own admission.
It is the same with circumcision, all true grace believers are necessarily circumcised "spiritually of the heart" by God Himself, but NEVER called to be circumcised physically by God. Deut 30:6.
My argument to you is that regardless of men`s intentions and desires to please God with fleshly ordinances, the fact of the matter is that it is GOD who saves men apart from anything they do themselves. In fact God saves His people IN SPITE of their intentions: ROM 5:8
Again, if you are arguing that water baptism is necessary for salvation in any way , then you are no better than those accursed false teachers of Galations.
Hello Norm.
I have tried hard to make things as clear as I can.
The thief was nailed to a piece of wood, planted in the ground, and under guard - I am not, and I presume you are not, so what is our excuse not to OBEY OUR LORDS WORD? We say we love God, so let us love God in truth and keep His commandments.
We say we have the mind of Christ, so let it be true, and let us fulfil all righteousness as He did - MATTHEW 3 v 13 - 17.
We look for excuses, therefore we are proud, and do not love Jesus as we so boldly claim to.
ROMANS 5 v 8. - Yes, Christ died for us, and here we are, we love Him so very very much, just not enough to obey His Word - JOHN 3 - follow His example, and be baptized in water as He was, and as He commands of us also - it speaks volumes about us that we kick against His Word as we do, and yet we love Him so very very much - "why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not that which I tell you?" - it will not wash with Him Norm, work out you own salvation, with fear and trembling - you can read, you can reason, it is your own responsibility Norm.
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."
That is a searching statement isn't it.
There is nothing you can do to earn GRACE Norm, there is however, something you can do to receive GRACE, and that is to obey God's commandments - if you love Him you will - it is as simple as that - and God is watching, testing us, to see if our claim is sincere.
Bapism is just the start Norm, there is a long way to go afterward, and faith to grow and nurture - Paul described baptism as elementary - which must surely cast a shadow over our faith, when we struggle with such elementary things.
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." - you do the sums Norm - if - will.
There is only one thing that stops us keeping this commandment - PRIDE.
No churchman ever told me I had to be baptized in water, quite the opposite; but I read the commandment in My Lord's Word, and I wanted to obey Him - it is up to you Norm.
You are not nailed to a tree Norm, Jesus knows that, but perhaps He will accept another excuse.
You misunderstand GRACE - FAITH - and WORKS, Norm.
I wish you all the best Norm, but if you are looking for excuses, rather than seeking to obey, you have to ask yourself why.
Is God's Word insufficient for us Norm?
Be like the Eunuch Norm; he never tried to reason away God's Word, making it fit his wants, rather he wanted to obey God's Word, fitting his life to it, developing a mind of Christ within him.
Repent and be bapized - water baptism challenges our PRIDE, Norm, it is an important start to our walk with God.
David.
Norm.
Our 'thinking' is our spiritual/Spiritual hearing; our doctrine, beliefs, opinions, behaviour, reveal which spirit/Spirit has gained our attention - short term or long term.
God says - you are NOT to eat of that tree, and Satan says, oh don't worry about that, of course you can eat from it.
God says you 'MUST BE' baptized in water AND Spirit - so, the two baptisms, but Satan again undermines God's Word - take your pick:
Christening - the supposed baptism of babies.
Water baptism - but not Spirit.
Water baptism - assumed Spirit.
Spirit baptism - but not water.
Assumed Spirit - but not water.
Spirit - but not tongues.
Spirit - with tongues.
Confirmation.
Memership.
Take your pick.
MARK 7 v 6 - 9.
Better than Jesus are you Norm, is not enough to be like Him.
David.
David,
You are tedious.
I have not refused to be baptised and it is quite right to encourage sinners to repent and be baptised Acts 2:38. I myself have been fully immersed with water baptism before witnesses and would encourage others to do the same.
However, again, because you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, then you are no better than those accursed false teachers of Galations. Why? Because just like them you are adding to Grace and making the receiving of Grace conditional.
Grace must stand alone and cannot be polluted by or be dependent in any way upon what a man does. God`s grace is sufficient ! 2 Cor 12:9. It needs nothing from you to achieve it`s purpose in the salvation of the elect. In fact if you lift your hand to Gods gracious provision in any way, He may strike you! Read the story of Uzzah 2 Sam 6.
What are you saying David by insisting on water baptism to complete their salvation? By this you are telling men that in order to receive God`s favour men must performance a fleshly ordinance. You teach men they must “DO” something to receive God`s Grace. You think Salvation requires completion by something you do ! What arrogance and hyprocrisy.
No David, Grace, redemption and forgiveness are already the possession of God`s elect through His blood Eph 1:7. Gracehas ALREADY been bestowed upon God`s chosen ones before they were born.
The knowledge of this is received when one believes, when they are said to have "received the reconciliation" Rom 5:11." It is totally free and unconditional on the part of man.
David you say…. “There is nothing you can do to earn GRACE Norm, there is however, something you can do to receive GRACE, and that is to obey God's commandments –“
David, your words are pure legalism and must be met with solemn rebuke.This is ANTI Christ. It is anti-Gospel. Christ will profit you nothing if the bestowment of His Grace is ultimately dependent on your imaginary acts of obedience.
You teach men that God has done something freely but now it is up to you complete the process by an activity of your own. Have you heard of that before? Let me tell you where it is and where you are David. – Gal 3: 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
The scary part David, is that you actually think you are being obedient. . Just like the Pharasees who thought they could attain God`s favour by the performance of Gods instructions.
What they thought was obedience by keeping God`s rules, was actually disobedience. Why because they thought they could actually do them and receive reward in the performance of them.
The only obedience we have is the obedience of Saviour who has perfectly and fully performed all acts of righteousness on behalf of His bride. There is nothing left to do David, but you say there is.
Forget your endless arguing over to be or not to be baptised, your leagalism and pride is the problem here. I fear for your eternal soul. I have given you enough truth. I have told you the gospel of Christ and Him crucified as the sinners complete righteous substitute. No more now to say to you.
Norm
You do pick and choose your verses with great carelessness Norm!
GALATIANS 3 all of it if you can be bothered to, but in particular, verses 26 - 27.
Paul says baptism is faith - Norm says, but no Paul, you are wrong, baptism is works, mere works.
If only you would read much more to gain context Norm, and stop twisting Scripture - read GALATIANS chapters 1 and 2 before thinking you can understand chapter 3, read the letters as if you were reading a cookery book Norm; if you start in the middle, or at the end, you will miss things out, and make erronious statements.
I AM NOT PROMOTING CIRCUMCISION, OR ANY OTHER LEGAL RITE.
What is 'Faith' Norm, you really do not seem to know.
When Jesus says "you must," then you must, and if you really love Him, you will, and know why you have done so, and NOT ROB the truth from others, slamming the door in their faces.
"The Word of God shall NOT return unto Him void or empty, it shall achieve the purpose for which it was given."
I am NOT above God, and I will NOT encourage anyone else to believe they are.
LUKE 7 v 24 - 35, if you can be bothered, "rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him."
John 3 all.
All of my close family to date, have been killed by the Methodest church, told that they only need to 'believe,' whatever that means, but, they all had Bibles, so they will also be held responsible.
Bye Norm.
Yes David, zeal definitely needs to be tempered with Truth.
The Scripture said "There is ONE baptism", so let's stay with that one baptism.
That "ONE baptism" which the Bible speaks about is not water baptism, and neither is it the baptism of fire, or the baptism of suffering etc.
The thief on the cross did not get baptized in water, yet the Lord saved him.
This "ONE baptism" is when Jesus baptized us by His Spirit into His body, the body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13), a one time event in salvation.
There is "ONE Lord" and Lord means God, please don't twist the word "Lord" into something else.
Because there is one Lord, therefore we have to know which one it is.
The answer to that is 'Jesus Christ', He is the only one true Lord and beside Him there is no OTHER (1 John 5:20).
(Isa. 43:10-11)
"You are my witnesses declares the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the Lord, apart from me there is no savior".
'If you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins (John 8:24)'.
David; I know that you don't believe that, and that troubles me.
I think you should obey the Lord and turn away from your many gods, He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments," especially the first commandment of the Lord.
You made it clear in your comment that you believe in two gods.
You said;
"We are not making a claim of there being two Gods. 'Why call me Lord and do not obey Me as Lord', and His Son Jesus Christ is ALSO to us a Lord".
Well David; what can I say to that?
Plainly; you really are deceived.
Also, you should listen to Norm's explanation of grace in salvation. It is exactly how he explained it, and any other way is simply a deception.
I'm sure you don't understand those things, and neither do you understand baptism.
Well brother, someone has to tell you, you don't listen to the Lord Jesus, why would you listen to us.
Norm.
If you have been baptized in water, with sincerity, not as a 'work,' as you may call it Norm, but as a sincere act of faith, and repentance; and if you have been baptized (have received) with The Holy Spirit, via the laying on of hands, with the attesting sign of tongues, so we know it to be true, and not just an unsubstantiated claim, then God has done something amazing in you, and yet you fail to understand it.
If baptism was Law, it would be enforced, just as circumcision once was by God, and still is by the Jeswish Nation.
Baptism is an act of faith - i.e, your own free will and choice to lovingly follow God's commandments.
It is NOT part of God's Law, for you are invited, not compelled.
God is looking for a people who wish to obey Him, not a people who keep the Law, only because they fear death, but not because they love God.
The Law was established to preserve a people, it was never able to save a people, because fear is the strenght of the Law, but love is the strenght of faith.
God is looking for a people who will love Him.
"If you love Me..............."
David.
Hello Paul.
As far as what has been said about myself - see MATTHEW 5 v 10 - 20. I shall take some comfort from that if I can, along with prophecies spoken over me, by which I try walk.
OXFORD definition of the word 'lord':
(1) a nobleman, especially one who is allowed to use the title 'lord' infront of his name.
(2) a master or ruler.
Lord God - is not "God God."
Lord Jesus - is not "God Jesus."
If you look in the Greek lexicon, Paul, you will see that "lord," does not mean "God," but 'master.'
"The Lord," does identify either our Father God, (or Godhead), and His Son Jesus, but it is the Name (or title) God, and The Name Jesus, that identifies His position of Lord, and why we call Him Lord.
"Our Lord God," is not "our God God."
I am hurt by the way we have spoken so carelessly, and proudly to each other, but it is so common among 'Christians,' and the reason so many depise the Church, and all it represents.
Shame on us who know no shame.
David - the proud, tedious, heretical, Pharisee.
Hmm; you have said it yourself David.
It is a confession, but not the one I was looking for.
I think your confession is meaningless, just like the Catholic confessions.
We all quote Scriptures, but you don't believe them because there is no repentance after your confession.
I think that a man of God ought to be humble enough to admit, when he is corrected by two brothers and the Word of God that he is wrong.
Confession without repentance is dead, just as faith without works is dead.
Reading your comments, I can hear that you have not been baptized according with Scripture. Yes, you have been immersed in water just like Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and all Trinitarian churches who don't listen and believe the Scriptures and the commands of the Lord.
It is utterly absurd to say that 'Lord' does not mean God.
Well David; the shame is not on us, but on you because you don't believe the Scriptures, and anything else I say and quote would have no impact on you.
So what can I say? I would like to leave the blessing of the Lord with you, instead I fear for your soul.
Only a brother who loves you will tell you the truth, but an enemy who hates you flatters with their lips.
Paul
LUKE 18 v 18 - 19.
That will confuse you Mr G.
And from a previous blog - JOHN 14 v 28, do you ever answer those people who put time effort and thought into their questions and statements?
Also - "Many will come in My Name, and will decieve many."
You sound like one of those guys from what I have read Mr G; and there is an unpleasant attitude displayed in your replies.
Strange blog really - you seem 'hell' bent on denying The Father, that is something Jesus would never do, perhaps you could learn something From Him.
Strange blog Mr G, strange blog indeed; hey you are not trying to get us to raise Jesus above The Father, only then to announce yourself as Jesus are you?
I wont follow you mate! Not me.
Strange blog Mr G, hey, thats not short for God is it?
Hey mate, I meant to say this to you also mate:
Jesus said -
"not My will, but Thy will be done."
So Mr G, what do you make of that mate? Can you get your head around that one, do you think you could say the same?
Is it Jesus' will that you get people to deny The Father mate, suerly not.
I don't get you mate, I don't get you, your are like a pom with a grudge, you must know you are wrong!
Mate, it really is about time you realized that Jesus was a mere Man, The only Begotten Son of God, in the flesh, Mary's son, begotten of God, and God dwelled in Him, in Mind, Word, and Spirit, as others have tried to prove to you; God dwelling within a fleshly Temple.
Was Jesus bad mate, of course not, but He was humble mate, a lot more humble than yourself; Jesus was a Man, humbly acknowledging the Authority, Righteousness, and Will of His Father mate, The Father that dwelt within Him.
God is a Spirit mate, The Son was flesh, just like you and me mate, and had a free will just like you and me.
Jesus bowed His knee to His Father, but you will not Mr G, why is that?
God cannot be tempted, God could NOT atone for us mate, it had to be His Son, Jesus, to give His life as a righteous man; where there is no challenge, there is no victory.
You keep on talking about Jesus' Name mate, which is to us, a wonderful, and powerful Name; but you make a GREAT error!!!!!!!!!!!
Mate, Jesus was also called The Word of God, I will say that again, Jesus was also called the Word of God - are you holding your Bible a little tighter, knowing Who you hold in yourhands, that is right, WHO YOU HOLD IN YOUR HANDS.
If only you would give more respect to God's Word mate.
You bang on about Jesus Name, at the expence of God's Word, and The Father Who's Word it is.
I ask you mate, I ask you, Jesus will be seated at the right hand of The Father, now He aint gona be seated beside Himself, but alongside His Father.
Jesus was a Man, indwelt by God, just as all Christians should be mate.
Others have tried to tell you mate, and I can't say much that differes from what they have already said.
Come on mate, let God be God, and listen to what He says.
SONG:
How deep The Father's love for us.
How vast beyond all measure.
That He should give His only Son.
And make a wretch His treasure.
How great the pain of searing loss.
The Father turns His face away.
As wounds which mar the chosen One.
Bring many sons to Glory.
Behold the man upon the cross.
My sin upon His shoulder.
Ashamed I hear my mocking voice.
Call out among the scoffers.
It was my sin that held Him there.
Until it was accomplinshed.
His dying breath has brought me life.
I know that it is finished.
I will not boast in anything.
No gifts, no power, no wisdom.
But I will boast in Jesus Christ.
His death and resurrection.
Why should I gain from His reward.
I cannot give an answer.
But this I know with all my heart.
His wounds have paid my ransom.
Henry;
I'm very glad that you have been so bold, plainly stating your Theology by saying;
"Mate, it really is about time you realized that Jesus was a mere Man."
Wow Henry; that is an extremely dangerous statement.
In fact, I am in fear and trembling before the Lord for your salvations sake.
Most Trinitarians believe that in their hearts, but not many are bold enough to openly say it.
Henry; I am nearly speechless.
I remember that someone said that to Jesus.
(John 10:33)
Jesus, 'I'm not stoning you for any of these, (replied Henry), but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claiming to be God.'
A great song, Anonymous!
It has a flavor of predestination (free grace) in it; therefore I assume that the comment is from you Norm.
Thanks a lot.
How great The FATHER'S love for use, how vast beyond all measure, that - HE - should - send - HIS ONLY SON - (HE SEND SON, WHO CAME TO US AS A MERE MAN) - to make a wretch His treasure.
A song I love, and was singing in my car yesterday.
You have got yourself into such BITTER confusion Paul.
Who is greater, The One Who is sent, or The One Who sends? Work it out Paul.
There is only One God!
There is also only One begotten Son.!
The Two are NOT the same, but ARE One, in agreement and purpose.
There is only One work and form of GRACE, that is working for us according to God's Will, to save us, if we will seek Him, and ask, with FAITH, and with obedience to obey all of His commandments.
Just as you are NOT your parent, but you are of your parent, and
your character may be like your parents.
As a 'Christian' you are of The Father ( a product of His Word, if you obey Him), but You are NOT The Father, but your character is to become like your Father's (and will if you obey Him); just as with Jesus, hence the mind of Christ - think as Jesus Christ thinks - He loved and honered The Father, was One with The Father (IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH), but was NOT The Father, to the exclusion of The Father.("I am going to The Father, for The Father is greater than I am - can't you get that Paul?)
You cannot test God, you cannot
tempt God, you cannot crucify God;
Jesus Christ was a Man, Who walked as a 'mere' Man, He could have called down ten thousand angels - BUT HE DID NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jesus walked as a Man, He did not CHEAT, He was God (THE FULL GODHEAD) with us, MIND, WORD, and SPIRIT, but He was Man also, He bruised, bled, was hurt, was scared, frightened of the crucifiction, yet gave His life for us anyway, calling upon God His Father for encouragement, but NEVER calling upon His Father to intervene. Jesus GAVE His Life for the entire World - the elect, the chosen, are those who choose God - you ain't special Paul, you are NOT loved by God anymore than any other.
Study, show yourself to be approved.
No, not Norm!
This blog is harmful, and I shall not look in again.
1 TIMOTHY 2 v 5.
Anonymous Christain-Anonymous: I am a student in High school it's amazing how you and Paul put up good arguments, I almost believed Paul,but you helped me understand he was wrong. I just wanted to say thz it was the answer I was looking for:). Paul you have it all wrong the Trinity is real God:Father, Son and Holy Spirt are all in one no three persons that is the Mormon believe. Thz again Anonymous.
Thanks 'Christian Anonymous' for your comment.
You don't need to believe in Paul G. but in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, since there is no other Name given under heaven or on earth whereby you must be saved.(Acts.4:12)
Please read your comment again.
Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are Unitarians and do not believe in the Trinity, but believe in an unknowable God, whom they call Jehovah or Yahweh etc.
I am also a Unitarian not believing in the Trinity, but believing only in the Lord Jesus Christ to be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, (not three persons in one God), but ONE person in ONE God, Jesus Christ who is God over all (Rom.9:5).
Paul
Anonymous; you said.
"Who is greater, the One is sent, or the One Who sends?"
Do you think that the BIG GOD sent the little god?
Or the BIG GOD (your unknowable god, whoever that might be) sent a mere man to do a job the BIG GOD couldn't do himself?
It really looks like that your BIG GOD couldn't create the world and everything in it, so he had to give that job to a mere man to do (John 1:1-7).
Or the BIG GOD couldn't save his people from their sins, so he also had to give that job to a mere man.
Anonymous; you are deceived!
Tell me; why would a mere man call ten thousand angels and not his father?
And where was his father to comfort him after the temptation (Matt. 4:11)?
At the transfiguration; why didn't his father turn up (Matt. 17….)?
Anonymous; Just like ALL Trinitarians you say everything contrary to what Jesus said and the Scripture.
You said;
"Jesus GAVE His life for the entire world."
Jesus said; 'I lay down my life for my SHEEP' (John 10:11 and 15), and certainly NOT for the WOLVES.
You said;
"The elect, the chosen, are those who chose God".
Jesus said; 'NO ONE seeks God, NO!---NOT---EVEN---ONE! ALL are lovers of self and HATERS of God (Rom.3:11+Ps.53:2-3). And you have not chosen me, but I chose you (John 15:16).
You say; that God loves everyone.
But He said, 'That He HATES the wicked' (Ps. 11:5), and that He HATED Esau before he done good or bad, while he still was in the womb of his mother. (Rom.9:13).
You say; God is TWO.
Jesus says; God is ONE.
You say; The Father and Jesus are TWO.
Jesus said; the Father and I are ONE.
You say that Jesus is a mere man. But He and the Scriptures says that He is the Lord of Glory, the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, and that before Him was no god formed, nor will there be one after Him (Isa.44:6).
You are just like Jesus said that the blind leads the blind and both will fall into the pit.
And neither should you call yourself "CHRISTian," since you certainly don't believe in Jesus Christ and the Scriptures.
Paul
For every one;
All those comments are a perfect example of my post title.
Not one of all the Trinitarians could say "Jesus is Lord", in fact it is impossible for any Trinitarian to say that.
Because the spirit they have received forces them to demote the Lord of Glory Jesus Christ to a mere man.
In everything they say preach and teach they tear the Lord Jesus Christ from His Throne and set themselves upon it, or a man including the Pope of Rome and call him "Holy Father".
But to every one of you, who love the Lord Jesus with all your heart, turn away from such satanic doctrines as the Trinity.
Guard your heart with all diligence, for it is the wellspring spring of life (Ps.4:23).
Paul
Paul G, you are an angry man, kicking and screaming to get your way - your way!
JOHN 13 v 31 - 32.
Do you remember World War Two, a sorry time, of great hate and destruction - well, millions of people lost their lives, as you know; whichever side those men and women may have been on, millions of people fought together as ONE, millions of individuals fighting together, on the same side, for king or Country, fighting together as ONE - in agreement, with the same aim, for the same purpose, to the same ends - as ONE. They were not a single man, but they were ONE BODY of people, of the same mind and purpose - the millions were as ONE.
The Father, The Son, The Spirit, are NOT divided Paul - they are ONE - ONE in Mind and purpose, ONE in Word, One in Spirit.
Jesus, The Son of Man, begotten Son of God, is an individual in His Own right, and God dwells within Him, The Mind of God, for He came from The Father, (JOHN 1)and so knew The Father's Will, for The Father sent Him with His message, The Gospel; He Himself was/is The Word of God, and The Spirit of God dwelt in Him without measure - and you can ask "where was The Father," ANSWER - within Him Paul, Mind, Word, and Spirit.
Jesus returned to The Father from whence He came, and He sent The Spirit to us, from where He was - you are choosing to ignore so much Scripture - why can you not find the courage to correct yourself?
I thought you understood 1 CORINTHIANS 12 v 3. But you never did Paul, did you.
If you had, you would have known, that it is ALL about our obedience to be baptized - born again - and not game play with words.
You NEVER answer the telling questions put to you, because you are not able to, and you know it; constantly probing to see if you have won somebody over, before introducing your doctrine, or never returning to the question if possible, you think that is right do you Paul, when others from what I have read, have sought a sound footing on Scripture.
I think it is devious, and that is not a fruit of God's Spirit, and your thoughts are not a fruit of His Word.
MATTHEW 26 v 52 - 54. between 36,000 and 72,000 Angels.
Jesus was/is One with God, but Jesus is still a Man in His Own right, with a free will - "not My will, but Thy Will be done."
"I and The Father am ONE."
PHILIPPIANS 2 v 1 - 16.
"ONE" - in total agreement, of Mind, Word, Spirit.
Anonymous;
I wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against satanic powers and principalities, powers that hold you captive under the power of the evil one (1 John 5:19).
The Spirit of God has been given to men to exalt, magnify and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ alone.
Satan's spirit in men is to demote and diminish the Deity of Jesus Christ the Lord and introduce and promote another.
Any men, who speak by that spirit, cannot say "Jesus is Lord."
For this reason it is impossible for Trinitarians to say "Jesus is Lord", because Trinitarians do not speak by the Spirit which is from God.
And any one, who has not received the Spirit of Jesus, does not belong to God (Rom.8:9).
You said;
"ONE in total agreement, Mind, Word, Spirit".
ONE person cannot be in agreement. To be in agreement it needs at least TWO persons, and God is not two persons.
I know exactly what you are saying;
You say that Jesus is in agreement with another.
Certainly NOT!
Jesus Christ is the Lord God and He does not share Deity (God head) with another.
And (Godhead) is not mind, word and spirit, but Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
You said;
"ONE" in total agreement of Mind, Word, Spirit."
From where did you get that?
I don't think that is in the Bible.
God is Spirit (John 4:24), Soul (Isa.1:14 and Jer.32:41) and body, Jesus Christ the Lord (ONE PERSON).
He has created you in His image, spirit, soul and body, (one person).
Since you are not two or three persons, how then can you say that God is two or three persons?
Paul
Paul you said ..." To be in agreement it needs at least TWO persons, and God is not two persons."
Well Paul, scripture declares you to plain wrong.
1 John 5:7 KJV –
7For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.”
Somehow, God is both three and One because scripture plainly declares it in this manner. You continually run away from this verse because you cannot fit it into your mistaken theology. Stop your deceiving of others.
Lets see if you can give a straight short answer for a change instead of answering with another question.
Are there "THREE" Paul?
Are each of these three... God?
Norm
Hi Norm;
You said; "Are there "THREE", Paul"?
YES Norm there are THREE!
But THREE…..WHAT?
THREE persons?
THREE gods?
Norm, you need to read the Scripture properly.
Your second question;
Are each of these three …… God?
Here you have the same presupposition as in your first question.
The Scripture doesn't say 'God' or 'persons' or 'gods'.
Three persons are called "gods" and NOT "God".
Again, you need to distinguish between, pluralities and singularities.
God is always called "HE" because He is one, if there would be many, then they would be called "THEY", and it is impossible for a singular to be a plural.
(Verse 7) is the witness in heaven.
(Verse 8) is the witness on earth.
(Verse 6) gives you the answer, that it is the Lord Jesus Christ.
In fact the whole chapter 5 is testifying to Jesus Christ our Lord and that you should have faith in Him (alone).
Norm; the Trinity is a satanic doctrine, and it hinders you from understanding the Scripture so that you can not see the Glory and Majesty of our wonderful Lord and savior Jesus Christ.
I do not deceive others, as you have said.
But know that my testimony is true and I do not lie. You do not believe my testimony, because you don't believe the testimony of Jesus Christ who is the only God (Jude 8:25).
Paul
Paul.
If you think of The Shekinah Glory, think of the pillar of cloud, and fire, the tongues of fire in the upper room (which were many), the glory of God which Moses saw just a little of, the transfiguration of Jesus, think of God as He really is, not flesh, but Spirit (Jesus The Man was flesh), God is SPIRIT (God could never be crucified, never be bruised, broken, or bleed, Jesus, The Son of God, God's fleshly Temple could be); think of God as a Fire from which countless candles can be lit, and we are the candles.
The number of candles lit, do not diminish The Fire, never will, and never can - is God diminished every time another person is born again - no.
Think of God, God The Father as The Fire, and The Word (JESUS' SPIRITUAL IDENTITY REMEMBER, PEOPLE FORGET THAT) as a Tongue of Fire coming from The Fire, and The Holy Spirit as a Tongue of Fire coming from The Fire, they are all Fire, coming from a single Fire - GOD - They do not diminish The Fire, and Their Nature is identical to Their Source - The Original Fire - The Father - The SOURCE.
Paul, you are insisting that I worship more than One God (The Father - The Source - "for He is greater than I.") - but I do not, that is not how I see and undestand God, FATHER (will, mind, source of all POWER) - SON (WORD), HOLY SPIRIT (POWER of God).
Paul, what makes you think the word God means a single function, rather than a Supreme Authority - I understand God to be a Supreme Authority, Who can do as He wishes to do, and we are to learn about Him, and get to know Him, and learn His ways.
God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit; They do NOT diminish each other, there is no disagreement between them, They are NOT a collection of Gods, but One God, The Elements of which are in full agreemnt - together They are God, alone They are God, Father, Word, and Spirit.
When The Name of Jesus is raised above that of The Father God, above The Word of God, and when The Spirit of God is raised above The Father, and The Word of God, we see people following people who claim to be Jesus reincarnated, and we see people following false spiritual signs and wonders. The Spiritual Title for Jesus, is The Word of God, Our Bible -
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." JOHN 14 v 15.
"...and the Word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's Who sent Me." JOHN 14 v 23 - 24.
The Holy Spirit will - "will not speak on His Own Authority...."
JOHN 16 v 1 - 17.
Father, Word (Son - JOHN 1. I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life. "how can a man believe if he does not first hear?"), and Holy Spirit. 1 JOHN v 7 - 12.
Now, this is VITAL that we understand - 1 JOHN v 12.
Link verse twelve with:
1 CORINTHIANS 12 v 3.
ROMANS 8 v 9.
JOHN 14 v 20, see ACTS 1 v 4 - 8.
JOHN 3 v 1 - 21.
2 CORINTHIANS 13 v 5 - 6.
MATTHEW 3 all.
LUKE 12 v 49 - 53.
TITUS 3 v 5 - 7.
The Word of God will not return unto Him void or empty; it is all up to us now; do we believe Him, or not.
The Bereans checked what Paul told them, against Scripture, to see if Paul was telling them the Truth; I wonder if Paul told them - "you wont understand, just take my word for it hey," yet we hear that often today.
Paul, you made a big mistake b saying a singular cannot be a plural - oh yes it can!
The body of Christ, the Chruch, we are many members, of ONE BODY.
The Bride of Christ, or should we say the brides of Christ - many members of ONE BODY.
Does not a team, have more than one member.
The human race, is NOT a single man.
An army, is not a single man.
There are numerous such examples!
Glad you agree with me there Paul ! Yes there are three indeed, Pretty hard to escape isn`t it?
But wait, now you reply ..three WHAT? (I was obviously right when I said you couldn`t give me a straight answer without responding with a question.)
Yes Paul, I want you to tell me the answer to you own question. Three what?? Can you answer that simple question?
Paul you now say – “God is always called "HE" because He is one, if there would be many, then they would be called "THEY", and it is impossible for a singular to be a plural.”
Well Paul, you are now exposing to your readers how ridiculously wrong you are. How obstinate are you to accept clear evidence? Here is the scripture again that is against your statement.. …Gen 1:26 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Paul, this is about as clear as scripture can possibly make it, God is clearly referring to Himself in the plural. Do you see that? Do you see the word “US” and do you see the word “OUR” ? This is God`s testimony about Himself!. Are you really going to deny God`s testimony about Himself?
It`s about time you conjured up some false humility Paul and said oops, yes Norm, I see those words in that verse properly now and I admit…. that I had it wrong.
So the question remains that you still refuse to answer (can`t answer ?).
Who or what are the three in 1 John 5:7 KJV ??
Norm
I do not know if I can help you or not Paul, but I hope this may help:
Paul G, a man, with a free will, and a fleshly body.
One day, he is told about a Man called Jesus, Paul welcomes the Gospel he hears, and gradually, with a change of heart and mind, he changes his previous way of thinking, and begins to think, and so behave in line with the teaching of Jesus.
Jesus teaches Paul about His Father, and how the message He speaks, is the message The Father sent Him to preach to the World.
As Paul continues to learn from Jesus, he soon begins to develop an understanding of The Father's Will, and learns, and remembers, and shares with others, the Words Jesus has spoken to Him. In obedience to the Word Jesus has spoken to him, Paul is baptized, and God, honouring the agreement He has made with mankind, gives to Paul, His Own Holy Spirit to dwell within Him, to lead and empower Paul, now, as a born again child of God.
Paul is now a different man, as though a new creation; for Paul now has a knowledge, and understanding of The Father's Will, having been taught God's Word by Jesus, and now having The Spirit of God dwelling within Him, to lead and guide Paul, in Jesus absence, and to empower Paul, as a child of, and witness for, God.
Paul G, plus The Mind of God, The Word of God, and The Spirit of God, and obedient to The God he has come to know, and love - Paul is now a 'Christian' - an anointed one - following the blueprint of The Gospel, and the example set by Jesus Himself - Paul believed - and Paul obeyed - he is a desciple of Jesus, a brother, and a friend; a child of God, now Paul's Father.
Paul is still a man, but now he also has the Mind of God The Father, Word of God The Son, and The Holy Spirit of God dwelling within him, and quietly Paul prays in tongues, to praise God, and to remind himself of just what has taken place within him, within his life.
Paul is now the very same as Jesus Himself, with the exception that Jesus is The only begotten Son of God, The Firstborn of many, chosen by His Father, to walk without sin, and give His Life to atone for Paul, and for all others, making a new relationship with God, possible.
Paul G, now has dwelling within him, The Mind of The Father, The Word of The Son, and The Power of The Spirit - and together they are ONE, Paul, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
Paul, could this help us?
When Jesus (The Word) came to us here on the Earth, The Father remained in Heaven, something we are ignoring in this debate; and The Holy Spirit, Jesus (The Word)said He had to return to The Father, that He may send The other Helper, The Holy Spirit to us.
You have a father Paul, you could represent him in his stead, just as Jesus has represented His Father - God; and as your father's son, others will accept your authority in his stead to express a choice, your father's will; it is the same with Jesus, but on a Spiritual level.
If satan can (could) go to and from Heaven and Earth, so to can God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Jesus expressed The Nature, Character, of God The Father, His Will, Word, and the Power of The Holy Spirit - The Authority of The Father, was displayed in The Son, Jesus, The Man, born of Mary.
P.S - a belated hello to 'Anonymous Christian,' and sorry for the spelling mistakes that slipped through.
I do not wish to hurt you by anything I have said Paul, but we must never seek to dismiss God's Word; and Jesus' witness of His Father, is very clear, and cannot be denied.
Do we know more concerning this matter than the Disciples that walked with Jesus? No, we do not.
Paul.
New job starting next week, so will not be able to look in like I have been, as will be very busy preparing, and later, moving.
David, aka Henry (my middle name), aka anonymous, g day mate - How great The Father's love for us, how vast beyond all measure - a nice song.
David Henry ....
Paul.
The Name of God is not Jesus; the Name of The ONLY (unique) fleshly Son of God is Jesus; God's Name to us, is "I","I Who am," "I am what I am," "Yahweh."
And we need to know no more about The Name of God, for we know what God is - He is LOVE, TRUTH, RIGHTEOUSNESS - all that is good, and pure.
Do you see why Jesus said "Why do you call Me good?"
It is GOD Who is 'goodness,'Jesus conformed to that 'goodness,' but it is GOD first Who is GOOD.
David.
Is that Anonymous you Norm who said;
"God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit; They do NOT diminish each other, there is no disagreement between them, They are NOT a collection of Gods, but One God, The Elements of which are in full agreement - together They are God, alone They are God, Father, Word, and Spirit."
No Norm! Absolutely NOT!
As I have said before; "God the Son and God the Holy Spirit", those terms are not in not in the Bible, because they are Trinitarian, and indicate that God is thee persons.
Remember I said, that the word "They" is plural and it always refers to many gods.
Count for yourself, how many "THEY" you have in your explanation.
"TOGETHER THEY ARE ONE".
You said that, Norm!
"Again you said; Paul, you made a big mistake by saying a singular cannot be a plural - oh yes it can!
The body of Christ, the Church, we are many members, of ONE BODY."
No Norm! Absolutely NOT!
Remember; I said that "FATHER" is a title and not a name.
And that it is impossible for ONE to be TWO.
Norm; It seems to me that it is impossible for you to accept anything logical and intelligent.
When I say ONE, you mean THREE or TWO whatever suits you.
When I say HE, you mean THEY or THEM.
There is no point for debate.
Kind regards
Paul
Thanks David for giving me both your names.
My assumption was that you and Henry were two guys from the same denomination and doctrine.
“You said; The Name of God is not Jesus; the Name of The ONLY (unique) fleshly Son of God is Jesus; God's Name to us, is "I","I Who am," "I am what I am," "Yahweh."
Well David; don’t you think that it is a shame and a disgrace to you and Norm who are called "CHRISTIAN" and don't know the Name of God?
All cults, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, Buddhists, Hare Krishna etc. they all know the name of their god, and you don't know the name of your god?
I am speechless!
Well, I do not blame you, but I blame those false teachers, those wolves who come in sheep-clothing, claiming to be Christians and leading their flocks astray.
The Lord will deal with such men.
Kind regards
Paul
Paul, I think I confused you, but Norm will correct you.
Paul, see: 1 CORINTHIANS 8 v 5 - 6.
David.
No David you did not confuse me, I know exactly what you are saying.
If you would read the text properly, perhaps you might understand the Scripture.
I suggest to you and Norm that you pray first before you read the Scriptures, and ask the Lord Jesus to open your mind and understanding and give you insight into His Word.
(1 Corinthians 8:5-7).
Verse 5, tells you that there are false gods, just as I have been telling you.
Verse 6 confirms what I have been saying all along, "but to us is only ONE God", and that God is the Father, and no other CREATOR but the Father, and everything was CREATED by the FATHER. Keep in mind, NO OTHER!
In the same verse the Lord repeats the same statement and tells you that the CREATOR of all things is the Lord Jesus Christ and nothing came into being apart from Him. Check (John 1:1-7)
After that read verse 7 of Corinthians; "But not everyone knows this".
Obviously you and Norm don't know those things.
Paul
Paul,
Are you avoiding my last post to you? Still avoiding answering me with plain speech about this verse?
1 John 5:7 KJV ....7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Yes there are three indeed, Pretty hard to escape isn`t it Paul?
But wait, now you reply ..three WHAT? (I was obviously right when I said you couldn`t give me a straight answer without responding with a question.)
Yes Paul, I want you to tell me the answer to you own question. Three what?? Can you answer that simple question?
Paul you now say – “God is always called "HE" because He is one, if there would be many, then they would be called "THEY", and it is impossible for a singular to be a plural.”
Well Paul, you are now exposing to your readers how ridiculously wrong you are. How obstinate are you to accept clear evidence? Here is the scripture again that is against your statement..
…Gen 1:26 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Paul, this is about as clear as scripture can possibly make it, God is clearly referring to Himself in the plural. Do you see that? Do you see the word “US” and do you see the word “OUR” ? This is God`s testimony about Himself!. Are you really going to deny God`s testimony about Himself?
It`s about time you conjured up some false humility Paul and said oops, yes Norm (and anybody reading this), I see those words in that verse properly now and I admit…. that I had it wrong!
So the question remains that you still refuse to answer (can`t answer ?).
Who or what are the three in 1 John 5:7 KJV ??
Norm
Hello Paul (and Norm, if you are talking to me).
Sat down having tea (legs aching like mad after walking up and down the milking parlour), I was thinking about what has been said on this debate.
It is true Paul, that you will not find the word Trinity in Scripture, and I cannot argue against that, for you simply will not find it. But does that mean that the context of the word being used is wrong in any way, or misleading and corrupting?
How can I show Paul (no not the Apostle), that for men to use the word, or even create the word Trinity, NEED NOT, and in fact should NOT be wrong (how people use the word is an entirely different matter, but guess what, that is the same for all Scripture; people do with it as they will, and the likes of me will never be able to stop that - because not everyone who says "Lord, Lord," actually gives Jesus that place within their lives); so hear is the example I was thinking of Paul:
If Scripture was to talk about a father, mother, son, or daughter, or both, but never used the word family, would it be wrong for us to use the word family to describe them?
What does the word Trinity mean? If the word is used to describe The Father, Son (Word), and Holy Spirit, as spoken of in Scripture, no matter how fragmented the refernce may be in each case; is it therefore wrong to collectively refer to The Father, Son (Word), and Holy Spirit, all of Whom The Scriptures teach us about, is it wrong for us to refer to Them as The Trinity, when we know what is meant by the word (corrupt doctrine aside)?
It is NOT wrong to refer to The Trinity as PERSONS, simply because it identifies Them as conscious beings - NOT, its, or things; better to call God what He is, than to call Him an it - God is a Spirit.
I must also ask you Paul - was Jesus mortal - think carefully.
Is God mortal?
The Trinity refers to three united Spiritual Beings, there is NO DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN THEM, together they are One, Three parts of The Whole - The Father Heart of God (His Will, desire, purpose, plan, hope, wish, dream, design), The Word of God (The verbal expression of The Father's Will, desire, purpose, plan, hope, wish, dream, design - "let there be!", and there was), and The Holy Spirit (The Spiritual POWER by which God's Will is achieved - CREATED - The Master Craftsman).
For years now, many years now, I have pictured God, as a young child, pure in nature, exitedly drawing a picture on a piece of paper; he does it with great joy, and draws things exactly as He would like to see them, in the colours He wishes, to the design He wishes - the picture is pleasing to Him, and He drew it with great joy.
Father, Word (expressed through The only begotten Son - Jesus - The mortal Son of God, a Man), Holy Spirit. They all agree together, with NO INFIGHTING.
David.
Well David; I think it is not necessary for you to understand whether there is a Trinity or not. A doctrine cannot save, whether the doctrine is right or wrong makes no difference.
Perhaps you would like to tell me how you became a Christian, or how you were born again?
When, and what happened?
If possible in a short version please.
Support for the Trinity - All three are referred to in this verse: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" (Mt 28:19)
No! Anonymous;
You need to read the Scripture properly.
Jesus said, "Baptizing them in or into the 'Name'."
Note, it doesn't say 'names' as in three, but name, as in one.
As I have said many times before, that Father is not a name and Son is not a name and neither is Holy Spirit a name.
If you cannot accept that, then it is impossible for you to understand the Scripture.
I suggest that you pray first and ask the Lord Jesus to open your mind and understanding, so that you can see, understand and obey the Lords command.
Kind regards
Paul
Just wondering...If Jesus is God, then who raised Jesus from the dead?
Also, Jesus said In my Father's House are many mansions. Why didn't He just say, "In My house..."?
Another...Jesus said that all manner of blasphemies will be forgiven. But Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only sin that will not be forgiven. If you say there is no Holy Spirit, are you not Blaspheming the Holy Spirit? If you continue in that sin until your time to face God, what will be your reply to God when He asks, "What about My Holy Spirit?" What will you say then?
Anonymous;
"If Jesus is God, then who raised Jesus from the dead?"
Obviously Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19), because there isn't anybody else to raise Him from the dead.
Remember that Jesus is the Lord God the Almighty and there is no other equal to Him.
You said, "Why didn't He say 'in My house?"
Yes He could have said that, both ways are correct.
But better is 'in my Fathers house', since He is addressing His Spirit and a spiritual house.
"Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit;"
No anonymous, I do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit and neither do I say that there is no Holy Spirit.
I say and agree with Scripture that the Holy Spirit is the Lord Jesus (2 Cor.3:17).
Also, I do not face God in the future as you suggest, I face God now and proclaim Jesus Christ to be that God, just as you should.
And neither will God say "What about my Holy Spirit", since He is the Holy Spirit (John 4:24).
Anonymous; I don't know from where you got your Theology, but surely not from God.
I suspect it is the pollution from the Antichrist (the Pope and Catholic Church), therefore make every effort to rid yourself from ALL Antichrist teachings so that your preaching will be acceptable to the Lord Jesus.
Kind regards
Paul
May the LORD JESUS Bless you brother!
I am here for you any time.
MY YOUTUBE:
http://www.youtube.com/user/neekothesecond?feature=mhee
MY FORUM:
http://www.benotdeceived.org/
HEARD THE WORD ON JAN 9TH 2011 AND CALLED UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS IN MY SORROW=CONVERTED AND SAVED ON JAN 9TH 2011
MY NAME IS JOSEPH...
TRUE BELIEVERS ARE HARD TO COME BY, I HOPE TO HEAR FROM YOU SOON.
Love your testimony Joseph;
I rejoice with all the angels in heaven over every sinner who repents (Luke 15:7).
Also I listen to your video clips on reading the word of God, but there was no comment section to reply.
Thanks for dropping by.
May the Lord Jesus bless you richly according to His riches in glory.
Paul
"I and the Father are one." {John 10:30 (ESV)}
"I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." {Revelation 1:8 (ESV)}
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." {Revelation 22:13 (ESV)}
"But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.'" {Acts 5:3~4)}
"Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." {Genesis 1:26 (ESV)}
"Can you find out the deep things of God?Can you find out the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven[a]—what can you do? Deeper than Sheol—what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth and broader than the sea." {Job 11:7-9 (ESV)}
You children of viper.....how can you hope to challenge the authority of the Lord and pompously think that you will be spared from your destruction? It is stated in the Bible, any blasphemy shall be forgiven, except for the blasphemy made to the Holy Spirit. Your greatest fault is your failure to acknowledge God God. Repent from your old ways and be born again in the Holy Spirit.
Paul
Thanks Don for your comment.
I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me.
Is that a rebuke or a correction?
If you think that I am a child of a viper, then think again.
You said;
"Your great fault is your failure to acknowledge God God".
Don, let your speech be clear, so that I know what you are talking about!
Are you saying that I do not acknowledge "God God" TWO Gods as you do?
What are you saying?
Do you believe that Jesus is the Lord God the Almighty?
Or do you believe that Jesus is God with another God?
In how many gods do you believe?
It's no need to quote lots of Scriptures if you don’t understand them.
Paul
Yes, I believe in the Trinity; God is the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. If a person goes out and says, "Well, since Father is God, the Holy Spirit must not be God. 'Cause, that's like saying there's two God out there," he/she'd be failing to acknowledge God God.
In other words, he/she would not be seeing the Holy Spirit to be God and the same logic could be placed upon Lord Jesus, our God. May you have a God-blessing day, Paul.
Don, you said; "Well since the Father is God, the Holy Spirit must not be God, cause that's like saying there's two Gods out there, he/ she'd be failing to acknowledge God God."
Don, do you call that logic?
I call that illogical.
Two 'God' are called two gods (plural) and not "God God" as you have said, after all you believe in the Trinity which are three gods, therefore in your confusion you should call your three gods 'the Trinity', God God God.
It is just as I have said in the title of this post that no Trinitarian can say Jesus is Lord, in fact I would like to add, that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Trinitarians to say that Jesus is Lord, since every Trinitarian believes in three gods.
Don you are transgressing the first and second commandment of the Lord and don't think that the Lord will let you go unpunished.
I recommend that you repent of your many gods and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ with all your heart so that your sins may be blotted out.
Paul
Paul, your are right on! I just wanted to say that your are so right as far as my personal experience is regarding receiving the understanding from God and not from any man. When I turned myself to Jesus I was then and onlymthen able to read and understand The Word, and revelations began falling on me or in me. I spent only three weeks as a Trinitarian and Thank God! I was spared from such a spirit after receiving the revelation of the true and only baptism used during Jesus times and after found in the Bible: in the Name of Jesus Christ. I refuse to attend any Bible school yet because I don't want to be indoctrinated and because I keep on receiving these marvelous revelations almost on a daily basis. And regarding that though, I truly believe that you can spent centuries explaining to Trinitarians and fighting their malignant spirit of deception they carry but you won't be able to get through them to see the Light of Jesus unless Jesus himself reveals to them, as He did with you and me, His name and His glory. I still think your sharing is very good though for those "trinitarians" who aren't really sure where they are because they know fully well that Jesus is the Almighty and the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Keep on because I have found brothers of The Name attending Trinitarian churches, being deceived by their pastors who hide the Truth from them. These sould also have the revelation of the Name and the may hear you. All other Trinitarians have to wait until Jesus has mercy for them Ro 9:15-16
Thanks Anonymous for sharing some of your testimony, it is very encouraging and I agree in everything you have said including the baptism.
I know that you are speaking by the same Spirit, the Spirit which I also have received from the Lord Jesus.
Yes it is as you have said, that there are many good brothers in Christ who fellowship in Trinitarian Churches and suffer the consequences of their captivity to this satanic teaching the Trinity. Therefore the Lord Jesus has sent me to tell them the truth and expose this wicked doctrine the Trinity so that all those who believe in Jesus come out from among them and be separate so that they will not partake of their sins (Rev. 18:4).
Everyone who believes in the Lord Jesus will hear the call of the Lord just as Jesus has said, "My sheep will hear my voice" (John 10:27), and everyone that does not listen to Jesus will be completely cut off from among His people (Acts 3:23).
A brotherly suggestion for you; do not go to any Bible school, but rather draw close to the Lord Jesus and He will lead you into all the Truth just as He already does. The entire Bible is written for us who believe so that we can understand it by revelation and the intellect and see the Glory and the Majesty of our wonderful Lord and God Jesus Christ.
Kind regards
Paul
Paul G is right, you must all listen to him. In 1982 as a 10 year old child when I was a Catholic an angel spoke to me in depth at a papal mass in the UK, I had to tell my Catholic family the RCC was Revelation 17, but the angel said I would fall away for many years until I was 28 and I would study the Bible again with a Church called the Christadelphians who do not call on the Name of the Jesus, but I ignored their theology and when I was 28 I repented alone in the Name of Jesus and asked for the Holy Spirit, I was then allowed to remember the conversation I had with the angel all those years earlier and it was ALL about Jesus. The angel said, "turn to Jesus with all your heart and mind" and that it was a wonderful thing that the Christadelphians were leading people to Jesus (although I was told I would have to write to them and tell them their theology was wrong), which I am currently doing. My friends, you will not have a ministering angel/Holy Spirit unless you repent in the Name of Jesus because the angels respond to no other Name. If you have repented in the titles of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit you are still in your sins and need to repent again in the Name of Jesus, like the Bible tells you to do 17 times. Ignore the so called church fathers they were apostates, ingore organised religion no one is saved listening to them. Turn to the Lord Jesus in prayer and start again.
The way I see it is Jesus manifested the character of the Father and we are to worship God by His character which was fully revealed by Jesus, that is true worship, anything else you are just making up out of your own imagination. If you make a big God and a little God you are totally missing the point, "if you have seen Me you have seen the Father". We are to see God in Lord Jesus Christ and that is it, anything else is idolatry.
God says you 'MUST BE' baptized in water AND Spirit - so, the two baptisms
> No you are reading a literalist assumption into the word water, read the next chapter and He explains it is the living waters of the Holy Spirit. John 3:4-5, "Except a man be born of water [the living water of the Holy Spirit] and of the spirit [the word], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." That is John 3, in the next chapter John 4 we are plainly told this water is NOT literal water, John 4: 10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." Now read John 7 where we are told the living water is the Holy Spirit! As for the word "spirit" it does not mean Holy Spirit in this verse, it means the words of Jesus, "these words I speak to you they are SPIRIT and they are life".
There is no literal water in the Holy Spirit baptism at all!
Why must there be a top down power structure. Just because the source of Jesus and the holy spirit is the Father does not require them to be subservient to the other. To be "one" there cannot be a top or bottom but a flow of agreement and purpose in perfect unity. Most men have difficulty with this concept because of our sin filled tenancy to dominate. The Kingdom of God is about bringing His power into every heart for healing, not for dominance.
Jacob
I am a Trinitarian who can say "Yahushua (Jesus) is the LORD. So what?
John 8:17 And in your law it is written, that the testimony of two persons is certain.
John 8:18 I am one who bear witness of myself, and my Father who sent me, beareth witness of me.
John 8:19 They say to him: Where is thy Father? Jesus replied, and said to them: Ye neither know me nor my Father. If ye had known me, ye would also have known my Father.
Whoever believes that Yahushua is the Father is totally WRONG as The Word of Yahushua refutes and exposes the liars by virtue of
John 8:18 I am one who bear witness of myself, and my Father who sent me, beareth witness of me.
Another Proof of Elohim is more than One Person is based on Psalms 110:1
Psa 110:1 YHWH said unto My LORD: Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mark 12:35 And Yahushua answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that the Messiah is the Son of David?
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, YHWH said to "MY LORD", Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mark 12:37 David therefore himself calleth Him "LORD"; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
By virtue of Mark 12:36, there are 4 Persons involved namely Prophet David, the Holy Spirit, Yahuwah (Father) and LORD (Messiah). If the Holy Spirit is just the Power of the Father Yahuwah, why the Holy Spirit is used in Mark 12:36? If the Father is also the Son, why Yahushua declared 2 Persons or 2 men in John 8:17-18?
Any person who believe in the Doctrine of Oneness have breached the Commandments or Doctrine of Lord Yahushua.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of the Messiah, hath not Elohim. He that abideth in the doctrine of the Messiah, he hath BOTH the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him peace:
By virtue of 2 John 1:19 Both the Father and the Son means 2 Persons; it can never mean One Person.
Deut 6:4 was spoken by Prophet Moses in Hebrew and not in English today. So we go back to Hebrew Text.
Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: YaHuWaH our Elohim is Echad YaHuWaH". Hebrew word "echad" differs from "yachiyd" (only). Echad is plural of persons of the same nature unified as One e.g., "I and My Father are Echad" in Jn 10:30.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one (echad) Flesh.
Echad has dual meaning for numerical One and united as One. English Oxford Dictionary defines "ONE" to mean "the Same; Identical" as well as amongst other meanings.
Thanks NbtT, I appreciate your comment.
In my post I said that a parrot can say 'Jesus is Lord'.
You are a perfect example of that.
As a cliché you said 'Jesus is Lord' and then in the next section of your comment you introduced another identity 'the Father' which is also a 'Lord' a God, (Lord means God).
If Jesus is 'Lord', then the other person whom you call 'Father or YHWH' must by necessity be also a Lord and then you believe in TWO Lords. I hope that you are able to see that you believe in many gods, therefore it is impossible for you to say 'Jesus is Lord'.
The spirit which you have received is not from God, otherwise you would be able to say that Jesus is Lord. The Spirit which comes from God will ONLY exalt and glorify the Lord Jesus Christ alone and no other, any other spirit is from the devil.
(John 10:30) Jesus said, "I and the Father are ONE"! But you say they are TWO, and neither are those two gods unified or in agreement as you have said.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for a father and a son to be ONE!
Yes they can be in unity and agreement, but they ALWAYS will be TWO.
And please you don't need an Oxford Dictionary to define "ONE".
ONE is always ONE and can never ever be TWO!
This devilish doctrine the Trinity hinders you from understanding all the Bible verses you have quoted and it makes you transgress the first commandment of the Lord and worst of all you will die in your sins unless you believe that the Lord Jesus is the only ONE God the creator of heaven and earth (John 8:24).
(Isa. 43:10) Jesus said, "So that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor will there be one after Me. I, even I, am the Lord and apart from Me there is no savior."
Paul
Praying 'in the name of Jesus' is a religious doctrinated habit. Nowhere in the new testament do the apostles and saints pray 'in the name of Jesus'. When we pray we are to say 'in the name of Lord Jesus,or Lord Jesus Christ, or Jesus Christ of Nazareth.' The demons tremble and flee when we use His name properly. As you know demons have names. one in paticular has the name jesus. Thats why we have to be specific to whom you are calling to because many have title with lords including satan himself. Do you know that there are many tombstones found from the time of Jesus with His name. So yes, in the spirit realm are many with the name of Jesus. So when people pray'in the name of jesus',they are actually saying 'in the name of a demon'.
A friend of mine was worshipping in her car one day with her daughter,her daughter heard His audible voice say "Which lord are you reffering to?"
so when we worship and pray or even talk about Him we should never just say 'lord'. I notice christians everyday say and call Him lord this and lord that . What a RELIGIOUS HABIT Satan has put in peoples tongues!!
Joe, I fully agree with you and it is alarming that most Christian Churches and believers are not conscious of those bad religious habits.
What bothers me is that not many man of God are speaking up about that.
Thanks brother for the comment and please keep on preach it boldly and may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you richly.
Paul
Pride comes before the fall. God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. How is it going in your neck of the woods?
Jesus didn't make this hard - He said we must receive the Kingdom as a little child. No secret, hidden meaning. He said what He said. Separate yet distinct. Three in one. Like H2O.
Remember what the unpardonable sin is - attributing the works of God to Satan. You are on a web over fire condemning the church.
May God continue to pour out His grace and mercy upon us, that we may love as He loved us.
Thanks Jim for your comment.
On this neck of the woods its beautiful one day, perfect the next :-)
Yes brother, I did receive the kingdom of God as a little child, but meanwhile I have grown up to maturity.
If there is no secret or hidden meaning, then why is it that you don't believe that Jesus Christ is the ONLY true God (1 John 5:20) and that beside Him is no other (Isa. 43:10)?
There are only two churches, the true Church of the Lord Jesus Christ and the false church of the Antichrist and the Lord Jesus has already reviled and condemned the Antichrist church, and so do I.
You rightly said that water is H2O, but God is not water, God is the Lord Jesus Christ and the titles 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' belong to Him alone.
I suggest that you should read the Bible carefully and do not believe every teaching from men, (Prov.16:18) "Pride goes before DESTRUCTION, a haughty spirit before a fall."
Paul
thanks for sharing ur information....
ttm
Interesting blog Paul.
My biggest question for you is do you study Hebrew and Greek? The reason I ask is because many things don't translate well over from one language to another. For instant Jesus isn't really how His name is spelt or pronounced, its actually Yeshua. Likewise the LORD of old testament is not the same as Lord in new testament. LORD in old testament is actually YHVH (or YHWH). The reason LORD is used is because the Jews believe that God's name was so sacred that man should not speak it and instead say the Hebrew word for lord instead. Interesting the Greek word for Lord is kurios and that is translated as lord, Lord, master, sir, etc. Kurios is a title not a name.
Ultimately we must rely on Proverbs 3:5-6. So many times humans try to use human philosophy, logic, reasoning, to explain God who is beyond anything we could ever put into words or imagine. In fact He is so great, He really doesn't need a name, that is why He told Moses to say "I AM" sent him, His very existence is His name.
Jarrell John chapter 1 1-10
Explains it all to me.
Interesting discussion. I am curious, how do you account for the word "our" in Genesis 1:26? If God is only one person, why would He say "our" image instead of "my" image?
And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Like and egg:
The outer shell
The white
The yoke
Each distinct in their duties but one. So, yes, Jesus in the white, can be Lord.
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I'm going to try to explain this as best as I can to the father, meaning our creator. To the son, meaning Jesus that our creator purposely sent. To the Holy spirit, meaning our creators spirit that is in him, you , and me. They are not separate but they are 1. He is in Jesus and they are one and they are in us and we are one body. To turn away from Jesus is to turn away from God. Jesus is Lord. You can easily enough see how this kind of thing works by looking no further than your own body. Your body has many parts—limbs, organs, cells—but no matter how many parts you can name, you’re still one body. It’s exactly the same with Christ. A body isn’t just a single part blown up into something huge. It’s all the different-but-similar parts arranged and functioning together
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (John 4:21-26 KJV)
He says this himself: “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.” (John 17:20-26 ESV)
I'm going to try to explain this as best as I can to the father, meaning our creator. To the son, meaning Jesus that our creator purposely sent. To the Holy spirit, meaning our creators spirit that is in him, you , and me. They are not separate but they are 1. He is in Jesus and they are one and they are in us and we are one body. To turn away from Jesus is to turn away from God. Jesus is Lord. You can easily enough see how this kind of thing works by looking no further than your own body. Your body has many parts—limbs, organs, cells—but no matter how many parts you can name, you’re still one body. It’s exactly the same with Christ. A body isn’t just a single part blown up into something huge. It’s all the different-but-similar parts arranged and functioning together
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (John 4:21-26 KJV)
I love Jesus, God Incarnate, who is one with God the Father, by his own admission and the Holy Spirit. The eyewitnesses to Jesus' baptism saw Jesus in the water, heard God the Father speak and saw the Holy Spirit descend like a dove. When I pray, I pray to any of the three persons of the trinity, but pray In Jesus Name because it's Biblical to do so. I am delighted to be a born-again Christian, baptized and happily serving God every way I can. I hope you are doing the same. Blessings
http://www.orthodoxebooks.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/The Meanining of Holy Trinity - Father Abraam D Sleman.pdf
Let us summarize what have been said, in the previous
chapter. To know the vine tree and its qualities, we
should know:
1-The invisible being,the root that is the father of the tree and the processor of life.
2-The branch (the image) that reveals its existence and qualities. This branch (the image) is begotten from the root and life proceeds from the root into the branch.
3-Life that is unique for its kind. The tree’s life proceeds from the root into its branch (image).
Likewise we can safely speak of the Holy Trinity:
1-God is the Father, the origin of everything. He is the Father of His Word (the Son) and the Holy Spirit proceeds from Him into the Son.
2-The Word (the Son) is begotten from the Father and declares Him. The Holy Spirit is proceeding from the Father into the Son.
3-The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. He is the life giver. God is living by His own Spirit. The Holy Spirit is proceeding from the Father into the Son.
In all of that, there is only one tree and one God only.We don’t say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three gods, but “the Lord our God is one”(Mark12: 28).
http://afkimel.wordpress.com/2012/11/30/st-basil-the-great-and-the-divinity-of-the-holy-spirit/
I swear to every man who confesses Christ but denies the Father: Christ will profit him nothing. If a man calls upon God, but rejects the Son, his faith is empty. If someone rejects the Spirit, his faith in the Father and the Son is made useless; it is impossible to believe in the Father and the Son without the presence of the Spirit. He who rejects the Spirit rejects the Son, and he who rejects the Son rejects the Father. “No on can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except in the Holy Spirit,” and “no one has ever seen God; the only-begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known.” Such a person has no part in true worship. It is impossible to worship the Son except in the Holy Spirit; it is impossible to call upon the Father except in the Spirit of adoption. (11.27).
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