Puritan Belief

The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone.

John Pipers Error

Seeing and Savoring Jesus Christ, By John Piper page 22 under the chapter Jesus is the Glory of God - Deity of Christ, John Piper robs Jesus of His full glory.

"The apostle John, who wrote the last book of the Bible, received the decisive revelation. He quotes God: "'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty'" (Revelation 1:8). This is not Christ talking. This is the Almighty God. He calls himself "Alpha and Omega"

Every single good bible translation has Revelation 1:8 in red letter and says the opposite to John Piper that these words are Christ talking. If Jesus isn't the Almighty God then He is no God worth seeing or savoring. The context of the verse makes it clear that Jesus says these words:

Rev 1:5 "..and to Jesus Christ who is the faithful witness, the firstborn.." (obviously Jesus)
Rev 1:6 "..made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father .." (obviously Jesus) Rev 1:7 "...Look he is coming with the clouds..." (obviously Jesus)
Rev 1:8 ""I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."" (STILL JESUS)
----------Then it goes on to describe Johns vision of Jesus and Jesus again reiterates that he is indeed the first and the last.

As a follower of Jesus our soul purpose is to exalt Jesus in everything. In our doctrine, In our understanding of scripture and in our lives. To cease from this endless pursuit and rob Jesus of his full deity and glory is NOT to see and savour Jesus Christ as he really is.

Seeing and Savoring Jesus in his fullness is to believe His words here:
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." John 14:7

Add Your Comment(62)

John Pipers Error
Posted by Correy Edmed Thursday, June 22, 2006

62 Comments:

Blogger Samantha said...

What? Why does this matter? If God is exalted, Jesus is exhaulted.

So what's the problem?

You're not in disagreement with the Trinity, are you?????

June 25, 2006 9:55 AM   Edit
Blogger Ryan Setliff said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

June 25, 2006 11:36 AM   Edit
Blogger Johnnie Burgess Jr said...

(Matthew 26:39) And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.

Is Jesus praying to Himself?

June 25, 2006 12:23 PM   Edit
Blogger Samantha said...

It seems that it is Jesus speaking, but I don't understand why it's such a huge deal...Jesus is God. If His Father is being exalted, then Jesus is being exalted, isn't He?

Just a note: God does call Himself the "Alpha & Omega" in Isaiah 44:6.

What is Piper's reason for believing it is God and not Jesus talking?

And still, why it matters baffles me. Sometimes we find error in the things that are quite meaningless. Piper of all people is all about God's glory.

June 25, 2006 2:30 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

hey sam,

I see where your comin from, but also its important we lift the correct God up. The only way to do that is to lift up Jesus Christ :)

June 26, 2006 6:57 PM   Edit
Blogger Samantha said...

thelovebug said: I see where your comin from, but also its important we lift the correct God up.


They're the same. So if Jesus is lifted up, His Father is lifted up. If God is lifted up, the HS is lifted up. They are the same, yet they are different. But if One gets the glory, they all get the glory.

June 28, 2006 12:28 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

How do you know the God your believing in is the true God?

The Jews lift up the God of abraham, issac and jacob...but they deny christ. ( an example of God getting the glory, but Jesus not)

Allah gets lifted up by the muslims ( the same God of the first 5 books of the bible ...koran ) , but Jesus doesnt get a mention....

do these people know the truth that Jesus is God? they're religion is pointless and a waste of time, harsh i know. Jesus does not get glorified at all even though 'God' is lifted up.

Could it also be possible that we could become misguided in our idea of God if we take our eyes of Jesus? just a thought

June 28, 2006 9:07 PM   Edit
Blogger Samantha said...

thelovebug, are you opposed to the doctrine of the Trinity?

June 29, 2006 1:53 AM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

June 29, 2006 8:55 AM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

You said :

Why does this matter? If God is exalted, Jesus is exhaulted.

Well then, why does it matter if im opposed to the trinity or not? if Jesus is lifted up God is lifted up isnt he?

but i did say before :

Could it also be possible that we could become misguided in our idea of God if we take our eyes off Jesus? ....

see John 8:27

So the only accurate way to understand God the Father is to first understand who Jesus is. Not the other way around. Does that make sense to you?

June 29, 2006 9:13 AM   Edit
Blogger Samantha said...

Hmm. Well, that's something I'll have to think about.

Honestly though, if we do not understand the Father, then we won't understand why He sent His Son to save us, right?

I mean, the reason we are "saved" is to be saved from God's wrath...if we don't understand that, we won't understand the sacrifice of Jesus.

But I'll think about what you said :D

June 29, 2006 11:16 AM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

thelovebug,
perhaps you should also read John 8:28-29

Did Jesus send Himself?

When Jesus said "I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me." did He mean to say "I do everything on my own, I speak what I taught myself."?

The difference between Christianity and the other false / decieved religions you mentioned is centered on the understanding of who Jesus is and His position of Glory ads God. Ask a trinitarian an unloaded question and you will find each and every one says that Jesus is God.

As to the topic of this post...
It looks like Piper did err. It is Jesus speaking. The Son is the Alpha and Omega, God.

Which is the greater sacrifice;
God dying for the sins of many, or God sacrificing His Only Begotton Son for the sins of many?

MDM

June 30, 2006 7:26 AM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

first i want to make it clear that i make no camp on either ground. Trinity or no trinity. This is just a box for us to contain the Almighty God.

Yes i agree Jesus did say he was the alpha and omega and that the difference between christianity and all other religions is Jesus Christ and that he is God.

This was my point :

Could it also be possible that we could become misguided in our idea of God if we take our eyes off Jesus? ....

June 30, 2006 9:21 AM   Edit
Blogger takin said...

thelovebug,

Clearly Revelation 1:8 was spoken by Jesus. Jesus is the Almighty God! My question for you is, Is Jesus the God the Father?

July 02, 2006 12:51 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

July 02, 2006 10:43 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

hey takin , totally agree with ya

Jesus also says he is the great 'i am', he says he is the son of man, he is the son of God, he is the holy sprit which lives inside us, he is the Almighty God. He is the christ, the holy one of God as peter answered as it was revealed to him from heaven

PB : ive changed blog names :) im always changing names :)

July 03, 2006 7:17 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Takin,
Your question.
Is Jesus God the Father??

Allforlove answered that question very well, but he did not actually say that Jesus is God the Father.

It is not easy, to let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Yes Jesus Christ is God the Father!

There is no other heavenly Father for me only Jesus.

Takin,
If Jesus is not your heavenly Father, then who is your heavenly Father???
How can you be my brother in Christ, if Jesus is not your heavenly Father??

To be my brother you must have the same Father as I.
If you do not know your Father, then you are an illegitimate son, and have no inheritance of the Father.
The same is in the natural and in the spiritual.

Jesus does not share His deity with another person.
To be the Alpha (first)is to be the Father.
No Son can be before his Father, and a Son can not be the Alpha.

As we know Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega He is the Creator of all things the Almighty God.
All scripture from Genesis to Revelation speak of Jesus and bear testimony to Him, and so do all true believers in Christ.

July 05, 2006 7:58 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

Paul you said:

Allforlove answered that question very well, but he did not actually say that Jesus is God the Father.

It is not easy, to let your yes be yes and your no be no.

Yes Jesus Christ is God the Father

i said :

Jesus also says he is the great 'i am', he says he is the son of man, he is the son of God, he is the holy sprit which lives inside us, he is the Almighty God. He is the christ, the holy one of God as peter answered as it was revealed to him from heaven

Tell me, who does Jesus refer himself too when he calls himself the great i am, and the Almighty?

Why do i have to state that Jesus is the Father for this to be true? Did Jesus ever state he was the father?

Yet out of his own mouth he said let your yes be yes and your no be no...

i think you took that verse out of context :)

all4luv

July 05, 2006 11:43 PM   Edit
Blogger takin said...

First, I’m truly amazed that this blog would try to associate itself with the Puritans of the 16th century and with names like Isaac Watts, John Bunyan, John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon, George Whitefield, John Knox, John Newton, John Wickliffe, and John Huss, and then promote a doctrine denying the personal distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All of these men were believers in the Triune God of the Bible. Apparently you are not.

That having been said I have a challenge to all who deny the personal distinction between the Father and the Son. First, read the following passage from First Corinthians 15.

(First Corinthians 15:22-28 NASB) 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

Now, go through the passage again and identify what person is being referred to be each use of a pronoun. Here is the passage with blank spaces provided.

(First Corinthians 15:22-28 NASB) 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when ____ delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when ____ has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For ____ must reign until ____ has put all ____ enemies under ____ feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For ____ HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER ____ FEET. But when ____ says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that ____ is excepted who put all things in subjection to ____. 28 And when all things are subjected to ____, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the ____ who subjected all things to ____, that God may be all in all.

July 06, 2006 10:33 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Allvorlove,
No offence! I like your answers, I know that you know who the great I am is.
There are many readers who falsely believe that God is three Persons, and Jesus is one of those three Persons who is God, next of two other Persons who are also God.

First person, God the Father,
second person, God the Son,
third person, God the Holy Spirit.

And these three persons have some kind of dialogue between one another in scripture.
They fail to believe that the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelt in the Lord Jesus.

July 06, 2006 10:30 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

Takin,

i love this :

They fail to believe that the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelt in the Lord Jesus.

Thats awesome :)

July 06, 2006 10:46 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

Sorry i meant that for paul g :)

July 06, 2006 11:03 PM   Edit
Blogger takin said...

I also posted my above challenge from First Corinthians 15 on Doth this Offend You? I'm still waiting for someone to explain that passage.

July 07, 2006 4:22 AM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

paul said of people who believe in the doctorine of the Trinity, "They fail to believe that the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelt in the Lord Jesus."

Actually this is not true. Jesus was and remains to be fully God. Jesus is not simply a part of God nor is He a lesser God. There is One God!

This does not alter the fact that according to God's own word, the Scripture, He is plural (not multiple), a tri-unity, a trinity. The Father; Jesus, the eternal and begotton Son of the Father, the lamb of God; and the Holy Spirit, sent by Jesus and the Father to believers who await Jesus' second coming.

Believing in the trinity does not mean a multiple of gods, but a triunity of the One God.

Jesus is God. - Yes!
Jesus is only part of God or a sub-god. - No!
There is only one God. - Yes!
There are many gods. - No!

My yes is yes, and my no is no. I believe the bible is the Word of God and is true, the Bible clearly and exhaustively tells us that Jesus is the SON of God.

MDM

July 07, 2006 7:44 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

First Corinthians 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when Christ delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when the Father has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For Christ must reign until His Father has put all Christ's enemies under Christ's feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For THE FATHER HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER CHRIST"S FEET. But when the Father says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that the Father is excepted who put all things in subjection to Christ. And when all things are subjected to Christ, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the the Father who subjected all things to Christ, that God may be all in all.

Thats how I read it anyhow.

MDM

July 08, 2006 7:39 AM   Edit
Blogger takin said...

Excellent MDM,

And the only way this passage (and scores of others) can be understood is in the context of a trinitarian framework where the personal distinction between the Father and the Son are acknowledged.

Will someone who denies the personal distinctions between the Father and the Son give this passage a shot.

July 08, 2006 8:20 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Takin,
I can see you with a smile in your face thinking surely not one of those anti-trintarians can answer 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.
Firstly I don't believe in the sixteenth century puritans or the modern day puritans eg John Piper etc.
I believe in The Lord Jesus Christ only. Some of the puritans believed predestination, election, free will, the Trinity, Grace, futurism and much more, and some did not, just like today and it will be so until the Lord Jesus comes back.

With 1 Corinthians's 15:22-28 you are continually robbing Jesus of His glory and supremacy in all things, and fail to see that all things are fulfilled and complete in Christ Jesus Our Lord. 1 Cor. speaks of Jesus alone and not as you assume it speaks of another person called the Father.

You cannot understand 1 Cor. because you are looking with your natural mind and understanding, The Lord said the natural mind cannot understand the things of the spirit because they are spiritually discerned, and all scripture is spiritually discerned.
If you look with your natural understanding you can make out God to have a father or a mother or a son and a wife etc..etc.

Are you then claiming to be born again and not see these things, this amazes me! Jesus said unless a man is born again he cannot see, he is still in darkness or do you suppose that a man is born again by joining a church or having a creed.
You foolish Trinitarians who has bewitched you so that you add to the Lord Your God another person who is also called God.

July 09, 2006 9:54 AM   Edit
Blogger takin said...

paul g

22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. (First John 2:22-23 NASB)

So then it's:

(First Corinthians 15:22-28 NASB) 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when JESUS delivers up the kingdom to the (JESUS) God and Father, when JESUS has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For JESUS must reign until JESUS has put all JESUS enemies under JESUS' feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For JESUS HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER JESUS' FEET. But when JESUS says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that JESUS is excepted who put all things in subjection to JESUS. 28 And when all things are subjected to JESUS, then the (JESUS) Son Himself also will be subjected to the JESUS who subjected all things to JESUS, that God may be all in all.

July 09, 2006 2:51 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

modern day magi, and takin,

Jesus is the son man:
You and I know, Jesus is not the son of (a) man.
So then in what sense is He the son of man??

Jesus is the Son of God:
In the same sense, He is not the Son of (a) God.
So then in what sense is He the Son of God??

Plese keep answers short.

July 10, 2006 9:48 AM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

You cannot answer a question with another question paul,

you need to address the questions asked of you first.
................................
Jesus is the Son of God, Luke 1:26-35 makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is in fact the Son of God, it is not simply an alegorical or rhetorical device to call Jesus the Son of God. Jesus is the only begotton Son of God, given for the sins or many as John 3:16 tells us.
................................
Paul, can you show one verse that says Jesus IS the Father, or Joesis IS the Holy Spirit, or that the Father and the Holy Spirit are not real but are merely disguises worn by Jesus?

your answer should be short.

MDM

July 10, 2006 3:51 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

ok, so here's my thoughts :)...

( and actually jesus did answer questions with another question all the time )

I dont want to answer the question for paul, but here's some verses that ive been looking at recently

Luke 24 :44

"Behold, i send the promise of my Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high." NKJV

2 cor 3 : 16 - 17

Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the spirit; and where the spirit of the Lord is , there is liberty. NKJV

John 17
11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me... NIV

i want to write more, but this is enough for now :)

What do you think of these verses?

July 10, 2006 5:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

Luke 24 :44

Is this verse saying The Father is the spirit?

2 cor 3 : 16 - 17

The LORD IS the Spirit ( thats Jesus, for only the veil is taken away by jesus)


John 17 vs 11-12

Does this verse say that the Fathers name is Jesus?

July 10, 2006 5:18 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

"and actually jesus did answer questions with another question all the time"

yes but when Jesus did this His questions highlighted a point rather than dodged the issue.

MDM

July 10, 2006 5:45 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

"yes but when Jesus did this His questions highlighted a point rather than dodged the issue".

Thats true, his questioned highlighted the main point which brought the issue into perspective.

July 10, 2006 8:22 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

modern day magi,

Isaiah 9:6
And he will be called
EVERLASTING FATHER.

July 11, 2006 12:16 AM   Edit
Blogger takin said...

paul g,

Jesus is 'Son of Man' in that He posseses the nature of man (only without sin') in the Incarnation. Jesus in "THE Son of Man' in that He is the ultimate man, the Last Adam.

Jesus is the 'Son of God in that He posseses from eternity the nature of God.

He is the God-Man.

(Rom 1:3-4 NKJV) 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

Also , you said,
"You cannot understand 1 Cor. because you are looking with your natural mind and understanding, The Lord said the natural mind cannot understand the things of the spirit because they are spiritually discerned, and all scripture is spiritually discerned."

Now, since I only posses a natural mind and I am not spiritual (like you), would you please help me understand First Corinthians 15.

July 11, 2006 4:02 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

takin,
Thank you for your answer,
excellent! God became a man,
God became flesh,
nobody's son!

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
I purposely avoided quoting lots of Scriptures, or answer lengthy passages, because I do not want to have a Bible study on PB's post.

There are many more marvellous passages next to 1 Corinthian that suggest that there are two or three persons in God.

I maintain the position that the Lord thy God is one, and not two or three, Jesus Christ alone.
In 1 Cor. Do you think that one Person of God puts the enemies under the feet of an other Person of God , that person must have very big feet.
Takin, I think you know better than that!

The Trinity doctrine is a damnable lie! it pollutes the hearts of the man and woman of God.
I like to say it again, the doctrine of God is the most important doctrine of all Scripture, it is the first commandment.
Jesus said , if you do not believe that "I am He" you will die in your sins.
Every knee should bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord God alone, to the glory of the Father.
I would like to hear your mouth, and every Trinitarians mouth confess, that the Trinity (God in three persons)is a lie, and that Jesus Christ alone is Lord.

Jesus said! be my witnesses
not Jehovah witness.

July 13, 2006 9:50 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

allvorlove,
These passages of Scriptures are brilliant, they speak loud and clear, excellent!

July 13, 2006 7:02 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

paul,
you wrote "I purposely avoided quoting lots of Scriptures, or answer lengthy passages, because I do not want to have a Bible study on PB's post."

Perhaps the weakness of your position and understanding is that you are trying to discuss and understand God while avoiding the scriptures?

"...so that they may be one as we are one..." cirtainly does speak plainly.

So that Christians may be one, in purpose and one 'body' just as Jesus and the Father are 'one'. Surly your 'spiritual' eyes paul, are not telling you this is a singular reference but rather the word 'one' signifies a unity.

Do you read this verse and believe that you are the only christian as you are One singular, just as you believe God is One singular? Surly you do not believe this as it would be foolishness and I do not believe you are a foolish man. Just as it would be foolish to believe that this verse means all christians magically become one person when they are saved, no longer individuals at all. This too is foolish.

Rather, this verse which you rightly said speaks "loud and clear" that as Christians are collectivly the 'one body of Christ' so too the Trinity is the One God. God however is not limited as humans are, and He is able to be a trinity and be a single God at the same time.

MDM

July 13, 2006 8:58 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

Why dont u guys exchange email address :)

July 13, 2006 9:02 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

puritan can give my email to paul if paul so desires to contine this away from the blog. It is a discussion we have had before though.

MDM

July 13, 2006 9:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

July 14, 2006 10:04 AM   Edit
Blogger Eye said...

Thanks for the information and good post PB! We must stand firm for the truth of God's Word no matter what others say.

In Him,

Eye

July 15, 2006 10:35 AM   Edit
Blogger Samantha said...

Yes, we must stand for the truth.

To all that are non-Trinitarians, I have to admitt....

You are not serving Jesus Christ, the Savoir in God's written Word. You are serving your own god.

How can you deny the Father? The Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ. When Christ went to the cross, He was not only suffering from physical death, but He was suffering because the sins of the whole world were laid on Him. They were laid on Him by the Father! And when that happened, God (the Father) turned away from Jesus, since God cannot look at sin.

Jesus cried out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

I'm praying for those who deny the Father. Believeing in Christ only and denying the Father takes glory away from God AND Christ. You are serving someone from your own imagination.

In love-

July 15, 2006 8:48 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

you said : To all that are non-Trinitarians, I have to admitt....
You are not serving Jesus Christ, the Savoir in God's written Word. You are serving your own god.

i love your passion but this is a pretty outragious claim dont you think?

Are you saying that u have complete understanding and revelation on Gods word about the trinity with nothing more to learn?

July 15, 2006 10:46 PM   Edit
Blogger takin said...

allforlove said, "Are you saying that u have complete understanding and revelation on Gods word about the trinity with nothing more to learn?"

I am certain that Samantha would never claim to have exhaustive knowledge of the nature of God. But it does not take exhaustive knowledge to receive by faith the the "basic" truths taught in the Bible. Truths like:

There is only one being who is by nature God.

The Father of Jesus Christ is God.
Jesus Christ is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.

The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct "persons".

These things have been revealed!

(Deut. 29:29 NASB) "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law."

July 16, 2006 10:42 AM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

John Piper is in huge error here. And has severely demoted Jesus and made him out to be just a tag along. With many eloquent words he has taken Jesus off the throne of God where only Jesus can sit in His glory.

When you exalt Jesus you are exalting the Father HIMSELF.

"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." John 14:7

I love how a child will believe the above but an adult confused with the trinity CAN NOT.

July 16, 2006 12:19 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

July 16, 2006 4:34 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

See John 8:12-29

I love how a child will believe the above but an adult decieved with the heresies of Modalism, Sabellianism, Unitarianism, Arianism, Monarchism, Patripassianism or Branhamism etc CAN NOT and WILL NOT, in spite of scripture.

July 17, 2006 9:08 AM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

What is the difference between trinity and Godhead? i know godhead is written in scripture in that it dwells bodily in Jesus Christ ( thanks paul ), but i cant find the trinity described anywhere?

July 17, 2006 1:00 PM   Edit
Blogger Samantha said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

July 18, 2006 8:01 AM   Edit
Blogger takin said...

Godhead refers to the nature of God (that is Deity). Really Godhead is that which makes God God. It is the essence of God. There is only one Being that possesses this essence.

The word Trinity is an extrabiblical word Christians have used from ancient times to refer to the biblical fact that the Being of God has eternally been shared by three distinct Persons.

The essence is not divided between the three Persons. They each possess it fully. One of the Persons became a Man. Because the Person of the Son, Jesus Christ, fully possesses the essence of God, when He became a Man (and to this day and forevermore) "in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9 NASB).

July 18, 2006 4:36 PM   Edit
Blogger Samantha said...

allforlove said:
Are you saying that u have complete understanding and revelation on Gods word about the trinity with nothing more to learn?


No, of course not. I am standing strong on the beliefs I believe God has led me too. If I am wrong, I'm positive He'll let me know.

July 19, 2006 3:19 AM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

July 19, 2006 8:30 AM   Edit
Blogger Adam Cummings said...

It seems much has been read into what Piper said. Regardless of whether or not you all think Jesus or the Father is speaking, I think everyone knows that Piper was NOT denying the deity of Christ. To ascibe this to Piper would in fact be harsh. There IS a definite dichotomy between the Father and the Son; the Father is often referred to as God, the Almighty, etc., while Jesus is not. Jesus IS God, and Piper would not deny this. Now, who is speaking--the Father or the Son--is the matter of debate. But, it doesn't seem fair to launch a message about the divinity of Jesus when Piper would never deny this.

By the way, I haven't been to your blog in a while... looks good! Mine was static for a while (I've would've taken me off my blogroll as well). I'll try to visit more later. God bless!

July 23, 2006 2:27 PM   Edit
Blogger takin said...

Adam,

The reason they are making such a big thing out of Piper's comment is they deny the personal distinctions between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They reject the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

July 24, 2006 12:22 AM   Edit
Anonymous Wes said...

Alas that we have come to such a debate in a puritan forum!

Simply put, the 'Jesus-Only' doctrine, is a variant of Sabellianism (google it, if you like).

Of course Jesus Christ is Fully divine. Hypostatic union of God and man. Col 2:9 is to prevent the greek audience of the day from reducing Jesus (due to his Physical form) to something less than the Glory due Him, NOT an attempt to negate the nature of either Father or Holy Spirit.

Orthodox Christianity is called Orthodox because it accepts central beliefs. One of which is the central mystery of the nature of God.

The contributors to this debate seem to agree on Christ's divinity, but not on Scripture's distinction of Father and Holy Spirit from the Son.

Christ prayed that we be as one as He and Father are one. To claim He meant unity of nature is to suggest He wanted All believers to become a single entity. Since He was drawing a comparison between the similarities of two things, a distinction of divine nature is required for this comparison to work. Jn 17:11

Jesus Christ could not be simultaneously forsaking Himself, and Forsaken by Himself.

Look up I Corinthians 3:23. It says, "And you are Christ's and Christ is God's" NKJV. Without a distinction in nature, you have a logical impossibility or an error in Holy Writ. You choose which.

Perhaps John 14:16 clears things up. Jesus speaking: I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.

Maybe you would like more evidence of the distinction between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Possibly John 5:22, For the Father judgeth no man but hath committed all judgment to the Son.

I also find it interesting that Abraham's Theophany (Gen 18:1,2) denotes the appearance of 3 persons.

Trinity does not appear in the Bible, because, as they debated the nature of Orthodox belief, they needed for clairity's sake to coin relevant terms and definitions.

August 07, 2006 1:31 PM   Edit
Blogger Modern Day Magi said...

well put wes.

MDM

August 09, 2006 9:45 PM   Edit
Blogger Austin Travis said...

John Piper is not infallible. He is a fallible man. He made an error in saying that was not Christ but God speaking! Anyone with a basic knowledge of English, Theology and Doctrine knows this is Christ Jesus speaking. And we also know Christ is God and Christ in this situation is in Heaven, Back in Glory so HE is not speaking as the Man Jesus but as the fully realized God/Man Resurrected and seated in the heavenlies as God and in the Godhead! So, it does matter what our words imply! I am very sure John is fine theologically but sometimes fallible men can say "not enough" or "to much" and perhaps not even realize it at all. He should be more careful with his exigesis and not cause confusion! - Lamar Carnes - 10/17/2006

October 18, 2006 5:29 AM   Edit
Anonymous Lovest Thou said...

One God and One Lord Jesus Christ (Messiah)
The Messiah was first promised in Gen. 3:15.
Throughout the O.T. and N.T it is quite clear that God is God alone. Deut 4:35 - "To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
Deut 6:4 -"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! Mar 12:29 - Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; Ex 34:14 - For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God, Matt 4:10 - Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve; Lk 4:8 - And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve;
Mk 12:32. These are only a few. If even Jesus Christ said that God is one then we ought to believe it, also.
The Bible also teaches that "That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.(I Cor 12:25) We are to love one another as christ hath also loved us... Over the past 17 centuries people have killed one another over Theology! We all should even love our enemies and pray for them!

January 27, 2007 3:30 AM   Edit
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