Jesus Virgin Birth - Mary was a Surrogate Mother
define Surrogate: A woman who carries an embryo that was formed from the egg of another woman; or She is not related in any way to the baby inside her. Catholics will reject that Mary was a surrogate mother as we all know because if it were true then they could not practice witch craft. For they believe in necromancy. (Praying to a dead woman)
Now from scripture I see that Mary IS NOT the biological mother of Jesus. Her sinful blood never touched that of Jesus and her sinful nature/seed/egg was never used to create Jesus. Mary was a Surrogate Mother.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
This is a good verse because it makes it clear that according to the flesh or the fact that Jesus was born of man in the "FORM" of sinful flesh means you can trace back his Mother (Lk 3) and Father (Mat 1) to David in the flesh.
Now the question you must ask yourself: Is Jesus fully God or did his genetic make up get entangled with sinful man?
Answer: He is fully God for Jesus denies his natural Father and his natural Mother and makes it clear that he has no beginning and no end.
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ
Is this seed Spiritual or Physical?
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him.
Jesus was not born of the physical seed or blood line of Abrahams seed but of the Spiritual seed which is Christ. For He is the Holy Spirit in the flesh. The Father of creation who became a man.
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Add Your Comment(69)
Jesus Virgin Birth - Mary was a Surrogate MotherPosted by Correy Monday, January 15, 2007
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
69 Comments:
SHE CONCEIVED
Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.”
Genesis 4:17 Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.
Genesis 16:4 And he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, she looked with contempt on her mistress.
Genesis 25:21 And Isaac prayed to the LORD for his wife, because she was barren. And the LORD granted his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
Genesis 38:18 He said, “What pledge shall I give you?” She replied, “Your signet and your cord and your staff that is in your hand.” So he gave them to her and went in to her, and she conceived by him.
Exodus 2:2 The woman conceived and bore a son, and when she saw that he was a fine child, she hid him three months.
1 Samuel 1:20 And in due time Hannah conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Samuel, for she said, “I have asked for him from the LORD.”
2 Samuel 11:5 And the woman conceived, and she sent and told David, “I am pregnant.”
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Luke 2:30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
Pb,
You definition of a surrogate mother is that of a gestational carrier, a traditional surrogate is where a woman becomes pregnant to a man for the purpose of giving that child to the man and his partner, who was not the mother.
You said "Now from scripture I see that Mary IS NOT the biological mother of Jesus." Where exactly from scripture do you see this?
John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." It is according to this flesh, the Flesh Jesus became that He was of the seed of David, descended from David, and of the seed of the woman or the offspring of the woman, propheseyed in the Garden of Eden.
There are a few places in scripture where surrogacy is discussed. If Mary was simply a surrogate the Scripture would have said so. Instead the Scripture says Mary concieved and was His mother.
Isaiah said the virgin would concieve, and low and behold she did. Yet again God true to His own divine word.
MDM
Takin:
Yes Mary conceived a Son thanks for pointing this out.
Magi:
Where in scripture other then Jesus is surrogacy discussed?
Surrogacy is mentioned in reference to birds in Jeremiah 17:11.
The Levites were spiritually as surrogate children, replacing the firstborn of all the tribes of Israel in Numbers 3:11-13.
Hagar was used as a surrogate by Abram and Sarai (later Abraham and Sarah) in Genesis 16:1-5 and Rachel gives her maid Bilhah to Jacob as a surrogate mother in Genesis 30:1-6. Hagar and Bilhah were to bear children on behalf of their masters.
Moses' actual mother was used as a surrogate to raise him in Exodus 2:1-9.
I have probably missed some references too.
Importantly though, where surrogacy is mentioned in the cases above surrogacy often produces a difficult, confusing and messy situation.
Where the surrogacy was in the conception of Jesus was that Joseph was replaced in the process. He could only unite with Mary to produce a human son. In order for Mary to concieve the baby Jesus, the eternal and wonderful God. God had to do it himself, he did not physically sleep with Mary (she was a virgin) but He did cause her to concieve the Son of the Most High, Jesus.
A surrogate is simply a replacement, Jesus is our surrogate for the penalty of sin etc.
I will ask again, where exactly in scripture do you see that "Mary IS NOT the biological mother of Jesus."?
You also seem to not know much about how a phoetus is fed or developes. "Her sinful blood never touched that of Jesus..." The baby is fed all its nutrients and oxygen etc directly from the mother's blood through the umbilical cord. The only time this process is interupted is at birth where it ends.
MDM
Pb,
Jesus is referred to as the "Son of Man" 88 times in the New Testament. What does this mean?
a)It is a Messianic title from Daniel 7:13-14
b)Ezekiel is called "son of man" 93 times by God so it simply means he was human. Thus Jesus being reffered to as the Son of man means He was human while also being God.
c)Both of the above.
d)Some other interpretation of the phrase/title.
MDM
Magi:
I am not sure if you read the post as it answers your question and clears up the confusion by defining exactly what was meant by surrogate.
The statement that in most cases the blood of the mother does not cross the blood of the child is correct. In the case that it does the mothers and child's life are often threatened.
Jesus is the Son of Man in that he has flesh and blood.
PB said,
Takin:
Yes Mary conceived a Son thanks for pointing this out.
Your admission that Mary conceived a Son is (if we are using the same language) an admission that that Son is her biological Son. The NT writers had no frame of reference for the phrase “you will conceive in your womb” to mean anything other than the that the stuff necessary from the mother for conception to take place was to be provided by Mary’s body.
The virgin conception (no human male was involved in the conception) shielded Jesus from the taint of original sin. It seems (and I am trying to figure out what you are really saying because I have never heard anything like this) that it is you who have bought into an unbiblical Catholic doctrine here. You seem to be saying that if a sinner (Mary) is the biological mother of the man Jesus then He would be a sinner also. The Catholic Church’s reasoning from this false assumption is that Mary was not a sinner herself. Your reasoning from that false assumption seems to be that the man Jesus was not the biological Son of Mary.
A denial of the true motherhood of Mary is a denial of any real relationship between the man Jesus Christ and fallen mankind. If this is the case then Jesus is not qualified to be kinsman redeemer.
T.
Takin:
Every surrogate mother conceives a child. Conceive simply means to become pregnant which Mary was.
Scripture tells us that Jesus is a new creation and the last Adam.
Like Adam He is directly from God the perfect man.
Is Adam a man since he was completely from God? Answer Yes therefore so is Jesus. God decided to make Himself have flesh inside a woman and to be born as a child to become a redeemer. He is one of us in this way not one of us in that he would look like Mary and have a lot of her features and mannerisms. This is just not true. No sin was found in Him. If Jesus by his nature passed on from his sinful mother did things like her He would be a sinner and not capable to redeem anyone.
Scripture makes it plain that Jesus is without Sin and it is impossible that he would take on any of the traits of Mary and her sinful fallen nature.
Would you say this about your own flesh and blood relations?
"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked
"Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
PB,
if you call fellow Christians "brothers and sisters" is that a denial or disowning of your bilogical brothers and sisters?
Perhaps you are confusing literal and figurative usage?
You are still yet to show from Scripture where exactly you see that "Mary IS NOT the biological mother of Jesus."
MDM
MDM
Magi,
I don't think you considered this verse in context or this post other then a glance over it.
If I thought that you had read the post and considered what it had to say I would re-write some of the post and highlight the scriptures used but I don't think this is the case.
Hey PB...
Long time no talk. I think you know where I stand on this so no need to really argue.
Just want to make this clear...You do know you're talking about Jesus Christ's mother right?
Would you talk about your friend's mother like that?
Would you go up to your worst enemy and say, "Your mother was a surrogate mother!"
I guess I just don't understand your point.
Talking about Jesus' mother this way misses the entire point of the Bible.
Hi The Den
Long time no talk. It appears you have many advocates of your church that regularly comment here and defend your church's doctrines.
If it is true that Mary was not a surrogate Mother and perfect and is actually the biological mother of a perfect Son you are right the Den. I should worship her and pray to her for she will certainly help me. After all woman are a lot more caring then men.
Mary however is no such thing she merely carried Jesus in her womb. The only way she can have any connection to Jesus is if she is born again. For if this happens she becomes a partaker in Jesus nature. I believe this is true for Mary and that Jesus saved her from her wicked sins.
Hey PB,
I think I explained this to you before.
We don't worship Mary.
If Christ is our Spiritual Brother then Mary is our Spirtual Mother(and Jesus commands at the Cross to John, "Behold, your Mother.")
As our Mother, we hold her in reverence as is dictated by the Commandments.
We also believe that Jesus saved her from her sins...albeit before she was conceived. I don't want to talk about that as it's not germane to this discussion.
And...for the sake of mere argument...let's say that Mary was His surrogate mother.
She still fed Him.
She still nurtured Him.
She still housed Him.
She still cared for Him.
And she loved Him...
FOR THIRTY YEARS!!!
Before anyone else knew that He was God. (But she knew and kept it in her heart)
This was no ordinary woman. She was special.
For God was obedient to her. (Luke 2: 51)
i agree with you PB, mary is a partaker of christs divine nature just as much as you and me who are born again. (2 peter 1:4)
theden: yes mary was special, she was chosen to carry God. the bible says she is blessed AMONG women, not blessed above women... in Gods sight I am just as special/important/perfected and blessed as she is. I am on the same par as her.
you mentioned all the things mary did for jesus. Isnt he still asking us who are his children to do the same. eg, when he is talking to the sheeps and the goats(mat 25)... he said something like, when i was hungrey/naked/in prison, you came to me, but to the goats he will say depart from me i never knew you for you did not feed me when i was hungrey and so on...
Its so obvious in mat 12 when jesus almost rejects mary and his brother and says that anyone who does the will of his father his is mother/sister/brother...
so if JC doesnt hold mary in higher esteem than he does anyother of his children, why do we?
Kellie,
Jesus does hold Mary in higher esteem. Again, He was (and still is...it never says He stopped) obedient to her.
When you're talking about Matthew 12, I'm assuming you mean this verse:
While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him. (Someone told him, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.") But he said in reply to the one who told him, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matthew 12: 46-50)
I'm not seeing where He's disrespectful towards her. It also does NOT say that He refused to see her.
It DOES say that whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, sister, and mother.
Well, Mary followed the will of God perfectly. Her words to the Angel Gabriel are, "Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord. Be it done unto me according to your word." (Luke 1: 38)
And that is why He calls her mother. Because she did the will of God.
PB calls Jesus the Last (or New) Adam. Mary is called the New Eve.
As Eve paved the way for the fall of Man (through Adam) by saying "NO" to God, Mary paved the way for our redemption (through Jesus Christ) by saying "YES!" to God.
And she's held in higher esteem by us because the Bible says so, "from now on will all ages call me blessed." (Luke 1: 48)
I'm pretty sure that that line is referring to only Mary and not all women.
Kellie, I'm sure you're a wonderful woman and blessed in your own right.
Mary is more special.
Theden:
Before I was born again, my whole family was Roman Catholic. I do know what the Catholic Church is teaching, what she has done and what she is doing now.
We all worshipped the Holy Mary as we had been taught; my Mother worshiped her till her death.
Theden, you don’t need to whitewash your evil and wicked Catholic Church who murdered throughout all the centuries my brothers in Christ, obviously they were not yours. The history books are full of your churches immorality and murderess acts which she has committed.
Also Satan’s servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. 2 Cor. 11:14 You would do better if you seek the Lord Jesus that He might grant you repentance and cause you to be born again, or you will never see the kingdom of God nor will you be able to enter.
A man who is born again can NOT be in fellowship with that evil Antichrist Church.
Mary and her family did not belief that Jesus was God, as little as you do.
She and her family said in public, that He was crazy and out of His mind, some others said He has a devil. Mark 3:21
Do you really think that a person who believes that Jesus is God would say such a thing, or say that Jesus is God with another person the Father?
After the resurrection she and all her family believed just like me.
Mary is NOT called the new Eve as you said.
Eve was not created with sin. Mary was born in sin (original).
Adam was not created with sin. Jesus was born without sin (original).
Theden, you do not believe the scripture because your Catholic Church has deceived you.
Paul,
You can believe what you want to believe. It is not the Truth and I'm not going to argue with you about this.
May God's love burn inside you so intensely that all can see it like a lamp on a hill.
God bless you.
The pope is called the Antichrist because he usurps the place and title which belongs to Jesus Christ.
‘Holy Father.’
All Antichrist people and followers do NOT call Jesus Christ ‘Holy Father’; they call the pope ‘Holy Father’.
As I have said previously that Antichrist does not necessarily mean against Christ, it can also mean in place of Christ.
If you read in Theden’s blog, you can clearly see that he cleverly leads the ignorant away from the Lord Jesus Christ by introducing them to the popes the Antichrist and his church.
In all Scripture Jesus never acknowledges His mother, not even once?
Why? Because Jesus is the Lord God the Almighty of which it is impossible for Him to have a mother.
If God would have a mother, then she must be worshiped. The Catholics call her “the Holy Mother of God” and worship her.
At the cross Jesus said to John “behold YOUR mother”.
He did not say behold MY mother, or with other words, take care of YOUR mother, He did not say, take care of MY mother.
Jesus denied that He had a mother.
The Lord Jesus Christ is Mary’s heavenly Father just like He is mine and everyone who believes in Jesus.
Paul,
Although you are correct, Jesus doesn't call her "Mother", she is referenced as His mother throughout the Gospels.
If it's impossible for Him to have a mother, then why do the Gospels call her "His Mother?"
Because she is His mother.
Also, why is He obedient to her? (Luke 2:51)
Because she is His mother.
Two times in Scripture, Jesus refers to His mother as "Woman."
When?
At the start of His ministry (John 2)
and
At the end of His ministry (John 19:26)
At the start of His ministry (from John 2):
"On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there."
NOTE: The following story is not about Jesus. The FIRST person referenced in this story is His Mother.
"Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding."
NOTE: Jesus and His disciples are secondary to HIS MOTHER in this story.
"When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."
(And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come." His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you.""
NOTE: Jesus obeys His mother and makes wine even though His Hour has not yet come.
When does His Hour come?
At the end of His ministry:
"When Jesus saw HIS MOTHER and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son.""(John 19: 26)
Why is Jesus calling Mary "Woman"?
Well, as referenced earlier, He's calling her Woman because Mary is the New Eve and as such, Jesus is pointing us to the fact that Mary is the "Woman" referenced in Genesis 3:15.
"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." (Genesis 3:15)
"Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home." (John19:27)
NOTE: The Gospel doesn't say He's talking to John. It says He's talking to His disciple.
Paul, if you are a disciple of Christ, which I believe that you are,
then Jesus Christ is commanding that you take His mother into your house.
And He is telling His Mother that you are her son too.
Theden:
I am not sure where to start.
Did you read PB’s post and all the comments and explanations?
If you have not received the Spirit of God, then you can not understand the Scripture and you do not belong to Jesus Christ. Rom. 8:9
In all your comments you are pushing Mary ahead in front of the Lord Jesus. If the Spirit of God would be in you, you would NOT and could NOT do such a thing!
Mary to be the second Eve is unthinkable and unscriptural.
Do you think a sinner like Mary could do it right the second time, after Eve who was created without sin was deceived and sinned.
Anyway, I do not think you know what the sin of Eve was?
Genesis 3:15 The Lord Jesus is talking to Eve and not to Mary.
Mary is NOT my spiritual mother, because God does NOT give spiritual mothers. This is Catholicism and not Scriptural.
John 19:26 Jesus is speaking to John, he is referred in Scripture as the disciple whom He loved.
I can not take Mary into my house as you said, because she is dead and waiting for the resurrection of her body.
You and your church can pray as long as you like to Mary, she can not hear you, nor is she the mediator between God and man.
There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim.2:5
I was walking by a church with a sign over the front door.
“OUR LADY OF SORROWS’
You guessed it right, it is a Catholic Church.
A church with a name our lady of sorrows would surely worship Mary as a god.
Theden, this is your church a Catholic Church, if that is not an abomination to the living God, then what is?
Thanks be to Jesus that He has called me out of that wicked Church, and caused me to be born again into His Church.
Paul,
I thought I responded to this but it must not have took.
Mary is not ahead of Jesus Christ.
Put simply, Jesus Christ is God. Mary is not. Jesus is always ahead of Mary. It still doesn’t take away from the fact that the emphasis of that story is on Mary and not on Jesus (per the writer of the Gospel John).
We obviously share different opinions of Mary. You can think whatever you want to think.
What I have explained to you is Scriptural and it does make sense. If you choose not to believe it, that is your choice. I believe that Mary is the New Eve and I am very familiar with Eve’s sin as I am a sinner and unfortunately understand sin too well.
You believe that “God does NOT give spiritual mothers.” I believe God can do whatever He wants to do. He’s God and we’re not.
You believe that the Catholic Church is an abomination. I believe that you are wrong.
And I won’t argue about that.
God Bless.
see Luke 1:41-43.
When Elizabeth was filed with the Holy Spirit (a sure sign she was speaking truth) she exclaimed in a loud voice to Mary "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
Mary is clearly blessed AMONG women. Not above but surely not to be denegrated or despised. She is the mother of my Lord. Not surrogate, gestational carrier, or carer, but MOTHER.
To be a kinsman redeemer Jesus must be my kinsman, both spiritually and physically. This is only so through his physical relationship to mankind through Mary.
For Jesus to be of the line or the 'seed' of David but not Jechoniah He must be blood related to David through His mother, Mary.
To be the "seed of the woman" He must be of a virgin birth and from the egg or seed of the woman who was His mother, Mary.
To avoid a Catholic style of the veneration of Mary (and all the other saints too) one doesnt have to tear her down and deny her her unique place in God's plan for salvation. Simply don't elevate her above other women, and dont pray to her. Mary was Jesus' mother, plain and simple. To suggest otherwise is adding to scripture.
The scriptures used in this post do not suggest in anyway that Mary was simply a surrogate or gestational carrier (how PB defines surrogate) of Jesus.
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
- Jesus was a direct decendant of David according to His flesh and blood. Being of a virgin birth that connection MUST be through His mother.
Luke 2:48-50 and Mark 3:32-35 are not denying a relationship to Mary and Joseph (although Joseph was only an adoptive father for Jesus) but making points about Jesus' ministry and Gospel of salvation.
All commenting here agree with John 8:58 that Jesus is the Great I AM, God.
Galatians 3:16, Galatians 3:29, 1 Peter 1:23 and 1 John 3:9 again are not speaking about Jesus' physical genealogy but of the Spiritual implications of Salvation.
I have read and reread your post PB. You have taken flying leaps with your interpretations and I ask again where from Scripture do you see that Mary is not the biological mother of Jesus?
This is not an attack but if you are correct, then there should be solid scriptural support for your understanding, and could you point to where that is please?
MDM
Theden:
No matter what I say to you, you will not see and understand.
Perhaps you can look at the tree the ‘Catholic Church.’
Jesus said a good tree can not produce bad fruit! Matt. 7:18
By their fruit you will know them. Matt. 7:16
Let’s look at the fruit the Church is producing.
In Scripture no believer is called Pope, Cardinal, Father or any titles, it is forbidden. Matt.23:9
No believer is dressed in spiritual robes with shepherd’s crook, smokers, water sprinkler. They had no statues, cathedrals or holy water. They had no clergy and confession booths and did not call the pope the head of the Church and Holy Father. They did not have relics of dead people in their meeting places and prayed to a woman and dead saints.
I can fill another page of unscriptural things the Catholic Church does.
The fruit of your Church is clearly seen by everyone who has eyes.
What do you think their doctrine (teaching) will be the truth or a lie?
Paul,
What you are describing is not fruit. What you are describing is the Church tradition (with a small "t"). Which I am not willing to discuss.
The fruit is the product of a person's faith.
If a person is a true Christian, then others can see Christ in them.
In their actions...
In their words...
And in their attitude.
Their love for Christ is reflected in their love for others and it shows visibly in everything that they do and in everything that they say.
It's not in the church in which they worship.
You don't have to be Catholic or Reformed or Arminian to understand this.
God loves you...
He asks that you love Him back.
If you can't understand that concept, then I suggest you go back and read your Scripture because quite honestly, I don't see it in this blog and I don't see it in what you're telling me.
A friend said to me,
Do you know how the Catholic Church makes Holy Water?
I said, I don’t know!
He said,
They put the water in a sauce pan on the stove and boil the hell out of it.
A more serious note,
It is a fallacy to say and think that you can see Christ and Gods love in certain people. If you could, then you would be the judge over who would, and who would not have Christ and Gods love in them.
But as it is you can not even judge whether a doctrine is of God or of the devil.
You believe only the opinion of your white washed clergy and leaders over you, who look right on the outside but inwardly they are ravenous wolfs.
Can you see Christ and Gods love in them?
What about Adam, Eve, Samson, Elisha, David, Solomon, or the whole Church of Israel who murdered the prophets and Jesus, can you see Christ and the love of God in them? After all you say that Israel is Gods Church.
What about Mary, Steven, Judas, Peter, Paul, Barnabas etc. and thousands of the saints whom the Catholic Church murdered and not only the Catholics also the Protestants.
Can you see Christ and the love of God in them?
If you could see Christ IN the Lord Jesus, then you would NOT and could NOT say God is three persons.
What chance would I have, that you would see Christ and the love of God in me?
The Scripture says that we are hidden in Christ! Hidden means you can not see.
The believers said where we saw you naked, hungry etc. They did not see Christ and Gods love in them.
Why do you make out that people can see Christ and the love of God in you?
Paul,
To recognize Christ in someone is not to judge them. To judge someone is to determine if they have been saved by God. The only salvation that I worry about is my own as I'm not assured of my own salvation and approach it with fear and trembling as Scripture commands me to. I don't worry if you or anyone I meet is saved but rather try to bring them to God.
As far as Adam, Eve, Catholics, Jews and Protestants who killed and murdered along the way...I honestly have no idea if they had Christ in them as I didn't know them.
And to be honest, I don't know if people can see Christ in me. Sometimes, maybe they don't. My ultimate goal is to unite myself to Christ so that when people see me, they will see Christ.
And that I see Christ in all people.
I'm not there yet.
PB,
still no answer to my question or points raised?
I will have to assume this is because you have none.
MDM
I have highlighted from the post the key points:
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ
Is this seed Spiritual or Physical?
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
This seed is not physical
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable,
This seed is not physical
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him.
This seed is not physical
Jesus was not born of the physical seed or blood line of Abraham's seed but of the Spiritual seed which is Gods promise of a new kind of Man. We are called the new man because of Jesus again all spiritual.
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
This seed is Spiritual
Like Adam Jesus is completely from God not of the physical seed of Man/Mary which is death but of the Spiritual seed of God which is life. God in the flesh.
It is unthinkable to consider that Jesus would have had the same mannerisms, thought patterns and desires as Mary.
Mary came to set him straight and take him home with all her family for she thought he had gone mad. However Jesus true Mother and Father are those who do His Will. Those who partake in his nature.
Jesus never partook in mans nature or sin even from birth.
If Jesus came from the same blood line as Abraham he could never say this.
Before Abraham was, I AM
----
When the bible calls people to come out of the catholic church He doesn't mean come out of the catholic congregation.
He calls them to come out from her doctrines. This includes universalism, Trinity and necromancy (exalting Mary) and every last one.
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Paul G.,
Theology must be approached with humility. You, me and all of us must do this if we truly His servants. I implore you to choose your words well. We can say things that either come out as arrogant or edifying, giving grace to those who hear our words (Ephesians 4:29).
James 3:13, 17.
Wisdom in the Bible is never a merely intellectual affair. It is a disposition of the heart as well as ideas in the head. In a sense, meekness and wisdom are one thing. They are both peaceable, gentle and willing to listen with reason.
Dan (T&Z)
Theden:
I will judge everything which is spiritual, whether it is of God or of the devil, especially whether a person is born again or just playing Church. Col. 2:15
I am concerned about YOU not about me, I know my redeemer who lives in me and I proclaim Him boldly.
To have no assurance of salvation is unthinkable for me.
The Scripture says, you must make your calling and election sure 2 Pet. 1:10
Plainly, you must make sure whether you are saved or lost.
Salvation means that a person is born again by the Spirit of God, not by the will of the flesh or the will of man but by the will of God.
Anyone who is born again knows that he or she came out of the kingdom of darkness and entered the kingdom of light (Jesus), old things have passed away behold all things are new. Jesus has given them a new spirit, the Holy Spirit.
That is experientially and NOT theoretically.
The first birth is born of the flesh, (natural Father).
The second birth is born of the Spirit, (spiritual Father Jesus).
Theden you said, you try to unite yourself with Christ.
This is impossible, and is Catholicism.
If the Spirit of God would be in you, then you could NOT be in the Catholic Church, because the Holy Spirit would not let you have fellowship with the Church of Antichrist and all of her idolatries and abominations.
The Lord Jesus calls all His people out of her Rev. 18:4
Theden, this is religion, flee from that and turn to Jesus with all your heart!
Truth and zeal:
Thanks for the correction.
I like to hear more from you.
I am not a servant as you like to think of me, because a servant does not know the business of his master, for this reason Jesus calls me friend, a friend knows the business of his friend.
Paul,
I appreciate your concern for me.
Unlike you, I do not have that assurance of Salvation.
I also believe that we read and interpret Scripture differently. I suggest you reread all of 2 Peter as just pulling one line out of a letter can lead to a poor understanding of Scripture.
Also, you are making assumptions in Scripture that just are not there.
Regarding the Catholic Church, I will not leave her as within the Catholic Church is the fullness of the Truth and there isn’t anything that you have said or anything I’ve read on this post that would convince me otherwise.
If you are concerned for me, then I ask that you pray for me. Pray for my salvation.
I would appreciate it.
Paul,
My use of the word servant in this context was in reference to those who are truly saved (cf. Mark 9:36). It was more of a humility reference. Even Christ himself exemplified humility as an example for us (cf. Mark 10:45, Philippians 2:5-8). Perhaps, I should have used the terms "His children" or "redeemed," but my main point was that all of us should embrace a "humble orthodoxy."
Dan (T&Z)
Theden:
In time past when Jesus walked the earth, all Israel interpreted Scripture differently than Jesus and all His disciples. The same is still today.
They could not come to Jesus unless the Holy Spirit drew them to Jesus, or if you like, Jesus calling them to follow Him.
Every one who is not in Christ is in the kingdom of darkness ensnared by the devil, 2 Tim. 2:26 that is against their will.
Unless they hear the call of the Lord Jesus, they will stay there because they have been held captive under the power of Satan.
I am aware that you can not come out of her because I say so.
You need to hear the call of the master the Lord Jesus.
An assurance does not come by study the Scriptures.
It comes by being in Christ, born of the Spirit and fellowship with Jesus.
Just like Adam before he lost it all.
Truth and zeal:
Humble orthodoxy is a BIG word, and I am sure it has a lot of different meanings, to a lot of people who read this post, even the word humility.
Truth & Zeal:
I knew that most people who called themselves Calvinists and protestants who visited my blog a year ago were not the real thing. And knowing what would happen I wrote this allegory just before I started "stirring the pot"
http://puritanbelief.blogspot.com/2006/03/should-we-be-silent.html
Listen to the words of Mr False Humility and then compare them to what theden has said in his comments on this post.
Mr False-Humility: Unlike Evangelist who condemned only you. My friends and I readily admit we are not yet righteous and although we are not sure where we will end up we are certainly trying in our religion. Bold-Evangelist claims he is already adorned with righteousness, But surely this can't be true.
I am very concerned for you Truth & Zeal that the big names like Josh Harris or John Piper are teaching you religion rather the foolishness of the gospel which is heard by those perishing as an OFFENSE and a deadly stench.
Would a catholic fit into one of those humble orthodoxy meetings? I bet they would feel right at home.
Many a man went to Hell with garments called false humility for they never seeked the dazzling white robes which only Jesus adorns His beloved.
Back onto the topic from a different angle.
Was it possible for a man to kill Jesus?
Hypothetically if a man with a bow shot an arrow back then and it accidently hit Jesus in the heart would he have died?
Truth and zeal:
John the Baptist would have not been welcomed in your Church of “humble orthodoxy”.
When he stood at the Jordan River saying to your church leaders: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath of God?” Matt. 3:7
Perhaps you could have taught him a little humble orthodoxy, and his head would not have been cut of.
Do you want me to tell you about the humble orthodoxy of our Lord Jesus, who is our example on humility?
Puritan belief:
I like what you have said.
That is very serious!
This comment has been removed by the author.
I think I'm being misunderstood here; my link to humble orthodoxy was just to make it clear what I meant by that word (which if the link was read correctly would make it clear what I meant by that word), which is a commitment to believing, living, and representing the truth with humility. That truth rooted is in Scripture. The point of using that word was not for the sake of using BIG words.
My reference to humility is NOT the "Mr. False Humility" that you had presented (which was very creative in your presentation). When I say humility, I do not mean that we should not be bold and compromise the truth.
"John the Baptist would have not been welcomed in your Church of “humble orthodoxy.”
I am NOT advocating a "Church of Humble Orthodoxy." The term is just a concept.
Humility does NOT mean lack of boldness.
It does NOT mean that we should NOT refute error. It does NOT mean that we should NOT be bold in proclaiming the truth as John the Baptist did. We need to be bold in proclaiming the truth. We need to preach the consequences of sin, the need for repentance and salvation in Christ.
The point of using that term humble orthodoxy (or even the word humility) is to indicate that we cannot just have sound doctrine and no love. For knowledge by itself without love will produce arrogance, but love edifies (1 Cor. 8:1) and having knowledge without love means nothing (1 Cor. 13:2). To have knowledge with no love will make Christians no better than the Pharisees. Christians need to have both correct doctrine and genuine love.
I've notice that in general (and I do mean in general) many people who comment on theological blogs tend to boast their own knowledge out of arrogance and really do nothing to edify other believers. They have theological debates for the sake of debate and not for genuine concern for teaching truth or correction. Many commentors may accuse bloggers of heresy without fully understanding them or will be quick to associate them to some form of heresy based on a snippet of their statement or taking their words out of context, when in fact those bloggers may be very biblical, but commentors may be haste in judging them without making an effort to fully understand their doctrine. I hope that is not the case with us.
How does one associate humility with Catholicism (which I've been noticing on comments on previous posts on your blog, because other commentors would post a comment that one did not agree with or misunderstood)? For other commentors who read this comment, please do not associate me with Catholicism, because I will then say that you did not make an effort to find out what doctrines I believe. I would say those commentors assume too much and misunderstood me. I do NOT believe in Catholicism. I do NOT believe in "Mary worship" or praying for the dead or purgatory. I believe in reformed theology. I believe what is written in God's word and not based on tradition and not because it was a statement from the Vatican, like many Catholics believe. I believe in justification by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE. Interestingly, Catholics would say that they also believe in justification by grace through faith in Christ, but not with the "ALONE" emphasis. Does that make us Catholic, because there are some similarities in beliefs? The answer is no.
On a different note, I have read many books and heard many sermons and attended churches of "Big Names" such as John Piper and John MacArthur. I may not agree with them on all doctrines, but I can say from firsthand experience that that they do preach the biblical gospel, but the point of this comment is not to defend them.
Our goal is not to teach someone "religion." Making someone religious is not the goal, because people can be religious, but not genuinely saved. We need to present the biblical gospel with the WHOLE truth for their joy and salvation. Getting people to church is not the end. Getting people out of hell is NOT the end (even though being saved from hell is a byproduct of salvation). God IS the end (1 Pet. 3:18). We present the biblical gospel so that they may treasure and cherish Christ more than all other things.
Yes, the gospel is offensive. I agree. Unbelievers need to be cut to the heart in a God-intended way, through the truth of their sin in comparison with truth of God's law, which is in God's word. The unbeliever must first come to understand our own depravity and the price Christ had to pay to reconcile us to God (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:19). When the gospel message personally cuts to the heart of the unbeliever (by God's grace), then they will be able to treasure the beauty of the glory of Christ.
Truth & Zeal:
I was hoping that my comment would cause you to write something that would show where you stand for catholicism or for Jesus.
I read what you had to say 3 times and I certainly don't want to associate you with the doctrines of catholicism. I would like you to expand on what exactly it is you mean by things like this:
"I believe in justification by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE."
Now I notice that you think that most catholics say they believe it but don't. My experience is this as well however most people who claim to be reformed who say it mean it as a cliche.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ does the full work of Justification ALONE?
Can you prove this by ruling out every other person be it in the world or the Godhead?
"Justification by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE" is said in this way by those who are reformed to distinguish between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics would say, "Yes, I believe in justification by grace through faith in Christ," but may also add "and also by works." The "alone" is used by Protestants to emphasize that it is not by works (human merit) or by the church, but solely by the grace of God in Jesus Christ (cf. Rom. 3:24; Gal. 2:16, 17)
You likely know that justification is used in the legal sense to declare someone righteous before God.
Ultimately, Scripture is our source for proof. To put it concisely, we read in Scripture that God is the author of justification (cf. Rom. 8:33) and the agent of justification is Jesus Christ as He is the actual justifier as the Father gave Him authority to execute judgment (cf. John 5:26, 27; Rom. 3:26; Gal. 2:16, 17) and the evidence of justification is good works (cf. James 2:14-26).
Truth & Zeal:
What you have said is great. And the verses you used are spot on as well.
I would like you to expand a few of the ideas that you bought up.
How do you personally understand this question:
"How do you see Jesus as the agent of Justification in relation to the Father?" Does the Father have no part in Justification?
Interesting blog here. Not many discuss this topic about the surrogacy of Mary. It is true Mary has nothing to do with the flesh of Jesus Christ. It is prophesied that Jesus was to come out of dry ground(not moist and fertile) Isaiah 53:2
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
KJV
Mary was a sinner as a result of her parents Adam and Eve. The very substance she was made from which is the dust had been cursed. Romans 5:12 states that by one man sin entered the world (through Adam). Adam's God given covering was destroyed therefore they (Adam and Eve)knew they were naked and ashamed. That is why they hid from the Voice of the Lord walking in the Garden. They even tried to repair the damage done by sewing fig leaves for a covering. People are doing the same thing today instead of fig leaves they are using man-made doctrines. If you will notice the Lord had to give them a new covering. Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
You see nothing sinful ie.. flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Jesus Christ which is the Word made flesh did not come through the very nature/flesh (dust) which was already a cursed substance. The Lord said that the ground/dust would produce thorns and thistles in Genesis 3:17-19
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
KJV
When you read in Matthew 7:15-16
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
KJV
You see all we can produce are the fruits of the the cursed ground which are thorns and thistles.
This is why Jesus came from heaven in
John 3:31
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
KJV
John 8:23
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
KJV
The whole Bible preaches salvation. In Noah's day the ark was used to transport the people from death to life a type and foreshadow of baptism according to
1 Peter 3:20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
KJV
Please also understand this God will never break His own laws. God said,
Genesis 3:19
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
KJV
If Jesus received his flesh from Mary when He died then it had to return back to the dust. GOD WILL NOT VIOLATE HIS OWN LAWS.
This is why their was so much emphasis on circumcision. If a person had not been circumcised they were to be put to death. I am sorry I wish I had more time to elaborate from the scripture on this subject. Let me leave you with one more scripture proving that Jesus was not made from the same substance as Mary.
1 Corinthians 15:45-50
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV
Wow, very well put Berean Representative (Acts 17:11) I was hopeing you had a blog for me to read.
If you do get one tell me and I will add you to the links.
Take care
Berean representative:
That is excellent!
You should have joined in earlier, during the debate.
This is a good explanation, well done!
Hope to hear from you on other topics.
BR (acts 17:11),
yours is the first comment here which has the weight of scripture supporting the view that Mary is not Christ's mother from a biological sense. Your comment will be prayerfully considered.
Surely the LORD does not violate His own Word or Laws. Why then is the coming Messiah (Jesus) referred to as "her seed" or "her offspring" in Genesis 3:15?
MDM
Modern day magi;
A woman does not have a seed, only a male does have a seed.
A woman can only bear children to the male.
You seem not to understand Genesis and the fall of man.
ARe you sure you are not reading your own 'wisdom' in exchange for the Scripture?
MDM
That is called common sense, modern day magi.
paul g,
perhaps this is why we differ on so many theologies, doctorines and interpretations of scripture. You use your 'common sense' and read from your own 'wisdom' while I alway try (sometimes it takes a while) to submit to the superior wisdom of the Lord found in His word. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31
MDM
Magi Asked
"Why then is the coming Messiah (Jesus) referred to as "her seed" or "her offspring" "
Paul Answered:
"A woman does not have a seed, only a male does have a seed. A woman can only bear children to the male."
But from here it takes a huge detour. Paul pointed out a simple fact. If the seed is in fact phsical why does a woman not have a seed.
Yet instead of answering you thought it was best to make it personal and say how you are wise and Paul is not.
you misunderstood the comment PB,
wisdom is ONLY found in the Lord and in His Word. When we begin to rearange or reinterpret what the scripture says on the basis of 'common sense' it is a serious and eternally fatal descision. Scripture is ALWAYS right. If it disagrees with our human 'wisdom' we are ALWAYS wrong.
no personal insult was intended and if paul g chose to interpret my words that way I offer my apology.
MDM
Modern day magi;
You I and everybody rearrange and reinterpret Scripture as we like.
That’s why we have so many different Religions in the world.
So you can see that the written word is just not sufficient, and we need the two witnesses, the ‘Spirit’ and the ‘Word’.
A man only with the word can not understand the Scriptures, and it brings death to him.
Only a man born of the Spirit can understand the Scriptures, because the Lord leads him into all the truth, and gives him life and life abundance.
I did not read every post of the 61 before me, but the missing piece of info that would clarify all of this banter would be something known by OB/Gyn medical doctors and others familiar with female reproduction. The angel told Mary she would "conceive in her womb." Conception means implantation of a fertilized embryo in her uterus. Fertilization takes place in the fallopian tubes. That where the sperm fertilizes the egg. Although it is usually much quicker, viable sperm can take up to five days fertilize an egg and produce an embryo. Then the embryo must travel about 3 days (72-80 hours) from the fallopian tube to the uterus and become implanted in the uterus. Implantation is the point of conception, not fertilization. God speaks to His children through many ways, doesn't He?
Conception is a comment about the mother’s state, not about the stage of embryo development. Conception is to be with child, to be pregnant, 2Samuel 11:5. To equate fertilization with conception is to confuse two completely different issues. Thus we can say that the Lord Jesus Christ was ‘conceived’ by His mother Mary, but no egg was fertilized.
May is truly mother of god. May was preserved immune from sin by his forseen merits on the cross which is why mary calls god her saviour. There was no original sin in mary for jesus to inheret. Is perfect blood which he shed for you, yes, has DNA from Marys perfect blood. The catholic church teaches “witchcraft + idolatry is a sin “. They believe people in heaven are LIVING not dead. Mary never died anyway. Her body went to heaven. Catholics ask mary to pray for them to jesus like when she did at the wedding feast of cana. With one prayer she can opease all her sons wrath. I'd have her on your side if I was u especially if your a sinner like me. No decent person would refuse to let other people honour their own mother. He makes her our mother “woman behold thy son, son behold thy mother“.
Just thought I'd say that Satan fears Mary more than anyone even more than God himself because her humility to god humiliates him as he remembers mary is now gods purest creature not him. Any time you read blasphemy against the mother of God Satan is certainly near calling who he hates more than anything. He also hates the catholic church as they interpret scripture infallibly “ the gates of hell will not prevail against it “ satan can't disturbe the pope when in union with the bishops he speaks infallible. God bless you
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Your all crazy. It's just a story.
Wow this chat is awesome.
Catholic Dogma preaches that Mary was born without sin. The Immaculate Conception refers to her birth, as she was untouched by original sin and born to elderly and previously barren parents. The birth of Jesus is referred to as the Virgin Birth. The two often get confused
Hebrews 10:5 '..but a body thou hast prepared for me.' Jesus became flesh by inhabiting a body made in Heaven by the Father and placed within Mary; hence, surrogate mother....not Mother of God....blasphemous....Luke 11:27,28 '(woman)...blessed is the womb that gave thee birth...(Jesus) more blessed are those who hear my words and obey them...
Protestantism is off the rails. Docetism is back. The immaculate conception is not needed. There is no inherited guilt.
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