Puritan Belief

The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone.

The Cliche Gospel

Cliche: An expression so often used that its original power has been drained away.

Cliche 1: God Is Sovereign
... but God can not make you choose Him.

Cliche 2: Jesus Saves
... but you must let him save you.

Cliche 3: Saved By Grace
... but you must invite Jesus into your heart.

Cliche 4: Jesus is God
... but so is the Father who is not the Son.

Cliche 5: God can make you prosper
... but you must tithe 10% of your income.

Cliche 6: God Loves You
... but even though He loves you if you don't chose Him He will send you to hell.

Cliche 7: God is One
... but He is three...

Add Your Comment(52)

The Cliche Gospel
Posted by Correy Edmed Friday, November 17, 2006

52 Comments:

Blogger elessi said...

Great post. Short, to the point and sums it all up nicely. I like it. I wonder if it would make my grandad pause.

November 18, 2006 11:08 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Cliché 1
If you say God is Sovereign!
And He wants to save your neighbor friend relative or families,
Perhaps you quote another Cliché, that “God wants no one to perish but all to be saved".)
Question:
Why can He not save them if He wants them to be saved?
What is holding Him back?
Is He lacking power?

November 18, 2006 9:07 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

I was trying to find something in here to question, but i couldnt :) good post

November 20, 2006 1:46 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Cliché 2
Jesus saves!
Have you ever seen anybody who is drowning, dying, sick, perishing, who would refuse salvation?
If not! Why does Jesus not save them?
Judas Iscariot. Why did Jesus not save him?
The high priests, the popes, cardinals and the church people, the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Moslems, Buddhists, etc. etc. Why does Jesus not save them?
Jesus is the all powerful mighty savior.
Tell me, why does Jesus NOT save them?

November 20, 2006 9:02 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

you tell me :)

November 21, 2006 1:19 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Cliché 3
Saved by Grace.
How many people do you know who asked Jesus into their heart and are NOT saved (born again) ?
Tell me, what did they do wrong?
And what did you do right, to be saved?


Cliché 4
Jesus is God. ( But ……).
Here again!
Can you smell that rat?
I hate this doctrine, it is by far the wickedest doctrine the Antichrist ever produced.

November 21, 2006 7:51 PM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

Are you talking to me? Coz as far as I can tell I'm the only person that reads this blog that's not saved.

November 21, 2006 7:59 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Elessi:
I think Paul was talking in general. I think the answers to his questions are:

Cliche 2: Jesus Saves
Jesus did not save Judas Iscariot because He was the Son of Pedition.

Jesus does not save all because He did not die for all. He died for His Sheep as scripture puts it and He will save all of them without exception.

Cliche 3: Saved By Grace
Many Christians ask God into their heart do the sinners prayer but come the weekday and they are back to their normal habbits.

This is why churches have 2 alter calls 1 for the first time commitments and 2 for those who have drifted away and want to re-commit.

The later you could say would like to be born again again.

The difference when someone is truly born again is that it was Jesus who saved them therefore it is Jesus who will keep them. Psalm 23 describes this.

November 22, 2006 9:02 AM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

Elessi, just wondering, but why dont you think you are saved? what do you think is keeping you from being saved?

November 22, 2006 1:15 PM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

allforlove: I would have to assume that god doesn't want me.

November 22, 2006 6:11 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

Elessi, Why would you assume that?

November 22, 2006 7:57 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

Elessi, I can give you my email address?

November 22, 2006 8:00 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Elessi:
I was not talking to anyone in particular.

I appreciate your honesty in saying that you are not saved, and in need of salvation.

Remember, there is no other name given under heaven by which you’ Elessi’ MUST be saved, and that is the wonderful name of Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12
Jesus said, all that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. John 6:37
The Bible says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus shall be saved! Acts 2:21
So then call upon His Name! and ask Jesus to save you. You can ask Jesus whatever you want, especially that He makes Himself known to you and that He will put His Spirit into you and cause you to be born again.
Speak to Him and you will hear His voice.

November 22, 2006 8:45 PM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

But I can't choose to be saved, isn't that so? I can ask, and I have asked... but I see nothing, I hear nothing, I believe nothing. This says to me that either a) there is no god, or b) there is a god but he doesn't want me to know him.

November 22, 2006 9:06 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

elessi:

What paul said was good...i'd re read it again.

the fact that we cant choose to be saved doesnt mean you are not saved...their must be a reason you want to be saved?

This world says that you need to see something before you believe it. But with God, you believe something and then you see it.

Heb 11:1 Faith is being sure of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see.

The enemy loves to come in and say you dont really believe Jesus, you dont really love him' , Your not really saved...

understanding everything here at PB's blog is not going to save you. seeing signs and wonders is not going to save you, being the best christian is not going to save you

Jesus saves you. And he's already done that 2000 years ago.

about 4 yrs ago, i was at a meeting and this prophetic guy was visiting, he was going around to everyone and prophesing and healing people, then he came to me (i was already saved for years) and he asked me to pray this prayer...that i would know jesus more. To be honest, i felt short changed, i wanted this amazing prophesy to come to me...but all i got was to say this prayer...a prayer that i thought was pointless...i already believed in him...and i was already passionate about him...why did i need to pray this? i didnt see the results straight away. But looking back, over time, i realize how vital this prayer was...there is a place he brings you too that is so intimite with him you can almost hear his heart beating...and he transforms you :) anyway, i dont know why i just thought to share that story...might help, might not, good story anway hehe

November 23, 2006 1:07 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Elessi:
You are right, this choice is not yours.
“You can ask”, that’s right you can ask.
I wonder who did you ask and what did you ask?
You said you hear, see and believe nothing. So it is with everyone who is dead in their sins and trespasses. You need someone who can forgive your sins and cause you to be born again.
(a) If you say there is no God, read Psalm 14:1
(b)Whether God wants you to know Him, I do not know.
The question is whether you want to know God?
And what God do you want to know?

November 23, 2006 8:08 PM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

The bible's entire purpose is to announce that God does exist, so if I believe that there's no God, then the bible holds no meaning for me. A verse in the bible saying I'm a fool for thinking there may not be a God is only logical - you wouldn't expect it to say anything else.

I am looking for a way to know that God exists, and to know him if he does... but I don't think I'll ever find that in the bible. That's why I read these blogs and ask people questions, to try to see how it works for other people.

How did you come to know God? Did you pick up a bible one day and read something and just go "of course! there is a God!"? Serious question - I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'd really like to know anyone's tale that cares to tell it.

November 23, 2006 9:46 PM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

Paul: That was good, i love how you put it so simply :)

elessi: When you asked Jesus to save you before, im sure you believed that you were saved. But now because you are confused about him and dont understand everything you dont think you are saved anymore? Is that right? or you dont think you were ever saved and doubted from the beginning?

Just because you are confused doesnt mean you are not saved.

Mathew 7:13 (MSG) says:
Don't look for shortcuts to God. The market is flooded with surefire, easygoing formulas for a successful life that can be practiced in your spare time. Don't fall for that stuff, even though crowds of people do. The way to life—to God!—is vigorous and requires total attention.

Jesus is image of the invisable God. You can not deny his place and time and history. If you want to know God more, Look at Jesus, study his life, speak to him as if he hears and expect a response for he does not remain silent to those who are genuine in seeking him

Re read the gospels. You will read the very words of jesus himself. If you want to know what is in someones heart, you listen to the words they speak and the way they act. Jesus says that those who want to follow him must die to themselves and this worlds way of thinking, to pursue the things which are on his heart....usually opposed to this world, such as kindness, selflessness, generosity, love. You will find you can not do this. This will bring you to the end of yourself and to the start of his amazing Grace which covers our sin and then brings us out of them by empowering us to follow him.

Its not rocket science, the only way to know God is to know Jesus.

You said the bible holds no value if you dont believe in God. Thats like saying, the world wars hold no value for me because i dont believe they happened. What a fool i'd be to believe this. For i am living here today in this free country because of the outcome of the world wars. Therefore, it doesnt matter weather you believe in God or not, your eternity is in his hands and you will live in the outcome. Not to discourage you, but to encourage.

Do you want to know him? tell him that. Those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. Do you believe that?

Look to the Big guy JC :)Thats how i came to know God.

Colossians 2 (msg) Everything of God gets expressed in him, so you can see and hear him clearly. You don't need a telescope, a microscope, or a horoscope to realize the fullness of Christ, and the emptiness of the universe without him. When you come to him, that fullness comes together for you, too. His power extends over everything.

November 24, 2006 1:07 PM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

What is an "MSG" bible?? It sounds like it paraphrases everything in the bible... odd.

If you want to email me I will explain further my situation.

Thanks

November 24, 2006 6:45 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Elessi:
Once I also was at the place where you are now.
Two Christian girls witnessed to me about the need of salvation, to be born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of my sins.

My life was very good, I did not need any God, I did not know what to be saved from.
I had everything a man could possible want, I was on top of the world, an excellent wife two young children a big house bordering the National Park.

I was looking at the most beautiful butterflies and thought that there had to be someone who made them. They could not possibly have evolved through millions of years. The more I thought I came to the conclusion that there has to be a God somewhere. I did not know who and where, but he had to be a person with a mind and intelligence to be able to make these butterflies.
I thought, surely this God can make Himself known and speak to me. I remembered the girls who said it is Jesus and I had to ask Him to come into my heart and fill me with the Holy Spirit.
Morning 9 am. February 1982 I stood in a big field alone and called upon the name of the Lord Jesus. I really wanted to know this God, I stood there and spoke aloud into the air, hoping He will hear me.
I was telling Jesus and the heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit that I love Him and whether He can come into my heart and forgive me for my sins. I did not know who God was, I thought perhaps one of them or all three. I said the same things and more over and over in hope that He might hear me.
After one hour or so I felt very stupid to speak into the air, so I went back into my house and thought it is the same rubbish like Jehovah Witnesses and Mormon religion etc. etc.
As I was sitting there and meditated, I thought there has to be a God somewhere and I really want to know that God.
So I went out to the field again, but this time I was more determined than before.
I called upon the name of the Lord again and said the same thing again and whatever came into my mind. An hour or so passed, as I was asking Jesus to forgive me my sins and fill me with the Holy Spirit and come into my heart, I noticed that my heart was closed and knotted up. So I asked Jesus to help me open my heart so that He could come in and I lifted my hands to heaven, then my heart opened and Jesus Christ entered my life.
I met the living God Jesus Christ the first time in my life, He forgave me all of my sins and showed me His love for me which I never thought possible.
Tears of joy filled my eyes, I have never experienced anything like that.
I said Lord Jesus why have they (the religious people) never told me about that? Jesus said “ Paul they can not tell you things they do not know themselves, you go out and tell them!” I was alone for three days and could not sleep, but worshiped the Lord Jesus day and night.
Space does not allow me to tell you all that happened and still does happen. I found the lover of my soul, it is Jesus Christ.
I did not need to be told that I was born again, I knew that Jesus had given me a new life just as the Bible says.

Elessi, please do not underestimate the Lord of glory and settle for second best or a religion which is a form of godliness and with our heart we are far from Jesus.
Do not play church in order to satisfy a religious longing, churches are full of them.
For you Elessi, go with all your heart for the Pearl of great price and that is Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sorry PB.to take up that much space, it had to be said.

November 24, 2006 10:16 PM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

Thank you Paul. Noone has ever told me anything like that before, but that is what I want. I don't want the empty religion that people wanted me to have before - what's the point acting like a christian if you don't know God?

You are probably right that I am at the same place you were back then - there doesn't really seem to be anything missing from my life as I have most things I want, and I'm not a nasty person, pretty well behaved most of the time. I guess my attempts to talk to Jesus have been half hearted at best - as you said I felt stupid talking to the air and gave up quickly.

November 25, 2006 9:25 AM   Edit
Blogger Allforlove said...

elessi, the message is a pharaphrased version,i luv to use it cause for me,it puts it in my language.But hey, its not for everybody,and thats ok :)

Do you wana hear my story? I didnt wana go first cause i thought paul could of related to u better. but i was also touched by paul G's story :)

I grew up in a church with my parents being ministers and both their parents are ministers and the list goes on,
So i do not know what its like going from not being saved, to being saved. For me, there is no time where i can remember i wasnt saved. I remember feeling Gods presence from as young as 5 or 6. I felt Gods hand has been on me my whole life and no matter how far i tried to run from the trials i faced growing up, i always knew Jesus went with me.
i went through a hell load of trials and lots of pain, one which no kids should go through, but sadly do. I had many reasons to be angrey with the church, with God , with religion.
But all i wanted to do was make the people in my world happy. i just wanted them to be happy and so i carried around with me their burdens. My parents, my sisters, my brothers. Held them in till i ended up being the victim a prisoner to the side effects of the hurt/unforgiveness and bitterness i held inside. One day i said to Jesus that i needed him to save me from this. To take this away from me. I always found it hard to understand why he says when you follow him, his burden is easy and light. one day in my room i was serious about jesus saving me from this or i would surely die from it and the abuse i was doing to myself. I had tried everything and was at the end ... Mid prayer, there was a knock at the door and there was a lady and the first thing she said to me was you need the holy spirit. I was shocked and said i already had the holy spirit but i invited her in anyway. She prayed for me and left. Peace flooded into my heart in a way i do not understand. Everday JC is teaching me through the bible and through revelation his amazing Grace, peace and love. And everyday he is continually overwhelming me. So i guess for me, God truely has shown me his peace and love and brought me out of the bondage i was in.

November 26, 2006 6:40 PM   Edit
Blogger Adam Cummings said...

Cliche seven is ridiculous. I honestly can't believe what a heretical path this greatly anticipated blog has gone down (I thought this blog was great when I first saw it). Trinitarians, of course, do not say that God is three and yet He is one. They say God is three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) and one essence (God). If you think that makes no sense (scripturally or logically), then argue from that angle. But stop chopping down arguments that orthodox trinitarians themselves never adhere to.

Your other cliches I read are great... but that last one needs a little theological tuning. In your attempt to defend what no one else will (which is, generally, a noble quality), you have gone down an errant path. I hope you'll come to see how erroneous it really is. God bless! And, please, address the arguments, if you're going to argue.

November 29, 2006 1:17 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

Adam
By believing God is one but also believing him to be 3 persons you have illustrated Cliche 7.

This post points out that this is the cliche gospel in that the original meaning of "God is one" has been drained away by what you believe after the "But".

God is one
... But He is three....

or
Jesus is God
... But so is the Father who is not the Son.

November 29, 2006 2:27 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Cliché 5
God can make you prosper.
Tithe 10 %
Every church who preaches tithing is under a curse. Gal. 3:10

Cliché 6
God loves you.
Perhaps you will quote John 3:16 and say God loves everybody in the world with an agape love.
Jesus created HELL, why would He throw those whom He loves into hell forever?

Cliché 7
God is one.
But He is three.
What do you want me to say?
Yes there is only one God, the person of Jesus Christ and He does throw everybody who does NOT know God into hell. 2Thes. 1:8
And everybody whose name is not written in the book of life, they will be thrown into hell. Rev. 20:15
Every person who does not know Jesus to be God alone, does not know God at all.
There is one thing to know about God and another thing to know God.

November 29, 2006 8:58 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

To believe the trinity is like to believe in evolution.
It is the same spirit the Antichrist.
In the trinity he says, Jesus is not God alone.
In evolution he says Jesus is not the creator.

All orthodox doctrine are catholic doctrine and of the Antichrist.

November 30, 2006 7:33 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Have you ever noticed in prayer meetings, the people pray to an unknowable god other than Jesus and put at the end of their prayer “ in Jesus name”.
So then they pray to this god (whoever that might be), in the name of a lesser god Jesus.
All this happens because of this wicked doctrine the trinity, who teaches that God is three persons.

December 01, 2006 9:21 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

The Pope is called by millions of people “Holy Father”!
In John 17:11 to whom did Jesus prayed, when He said “Holy Father”?
And to whom do you pray, when you say “Holy Father”?

As a believer in Jesus there is no neutral ground.
Jesus said in Matt. 12:30 if you are not for me you are against me.
You can not serve two masters or two persons; neither can you pray to two persons who are god.
Being silent is as good as agreeing with the Trinitarians, Trinitarian’ism is Universal’ism and is Antichrist

December 03, 2006 10:09 AM   Edit
Blogger elessi said...

Prayers in my family always started with "Dear Lord Jesus" and finished with "In thy name, amen". So at least we know who we were praying to.

December 03, 2006 2:43 PM   Edit
Blogger Adam Cummings said...

Paul G,

I see there is not much analysis or thought put into what you say. I just don't have time to "argue" like I used to, and it seems fruitless anyhow. But, it should be noted that you sat up a strawman argument by arguing against "God is one... BUT God is three." Your argument rested on that contrasting conjunction. "But", why couldn't one say, "God is one essence, AND He is three persons." That is what we say. You enjoy semantics so much that you ignored that. Again, please address the real arguments.

Since Jesus prayed to the Father, it must be that He was committing blasphemy as well (as you all claim praying to someone else is). My regular pattern is to pray to the Father (as Jesus instructed us to do: "Our Father, who art in heaven..."). Of course, I pray to the Lord as well (as Stephen and others did). At times, I even breathe a quick prayer to the Holy Spirit for empowerment. I recognize, of course, that the ONE true God always hears me. Because none of you know how to make logical sense of such a biblical teaching as the trinity, you have decided to take the road which says your logic is greater than Scripture's. I would dissuade you, with everything in me, to turn from such a path.

I am, again, sorry to see what this blog has come to promote... and how it relishes in such heresy.

December 03, 2006 5:52 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Elessi:
Excellent! God’s children always know who their heavenly Father is.

Adam Cummings:
I made it simple for everyone to see and understand and turn away from that wicked doctrine to the Lord Jesus.

Sins you pray to the Father and also to Jesus and occasionally to the Holy Spirit, you have forgotten also to pray to the mother of god, perhaps she has a soft heart to pass on your prayers to God.
Adam, this is what I was talking about.
You said:
“But why couldn’t one say, God is one essence, AND He is three persons.
And because none of you know how to make logical sense of such a biblical teaching as the trinity.”

Neither can you!

To everyone:
This is a perfect example how the modern day Trinitarian churches teach and deceive their congregations, so that they pray to so many persons who supposedly are god.
Every Trinitarian is like Adam, except Adam was honest to publicly admit it.

December 04, 2006 7:18 PM   Edit
Anonymous kellie - allforluv said...

ok, this might be dumb but if you pray in the name of jesus even if you address him as God to begin with we are praying to the same god here.

so say i start with dear God and end with in jesus name, doesnt this mean that the prayer was prayed IN JESUS NAME! So why this silly debate! ... we are all praying to the same God here.

if we are covered by Gods grace does this mean that we are covered under every law in the old testament?

So say we say we dont fully understand the trinity...or we hold on to the trinity doctrine because we believe it ... that Gods grace covers us in this, in our ignorance. Well praise God anyway that although i still dont understand all this that i am sill saved and have recieved his amazing gift of grace and love.

December 05, 2006 7:02 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Kellie:
My job is to tell you and everyone the truth.
If you don’t understand certain things we are talking about, that’s ok.
Remember to ask the Lord Jesus, because all wisdom and understanding is in Christ Jesus our Lord. If you ask Him, He will lead you into all the truth.
Kellie, it is very important to know who your God is and in whom you believe, trust, pray and worship.
How you pray is totally up to you, as long as you pray to Jesus and nobody else.
Whether you call Him Lord or God or Father or Jesus is totally up to you as long it is the same person Jesus Christ.
It is not rocket science as you have said, it is simple Jesus alone who is the Lord God the Almighty.

If a woman is married to one (person) husband, she is called a bride.
If a woman has two persons to be her husbands, she is called a harlot.
The same is in the Lord!
If the church has two persons to be god, she is called a harlot church.
If a church has a one person God Jesus Christ, she is called the bride of Christ.
Paul says I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2 Cor. 11:2

December 06, 2006 8:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

If a person prays to Buddha, in Jesus name,
or to Jehovah, in Jesus name, or to Krishna, Allah, or God in Jesus name.
What does that mean? Answer, it means nothing.
Can’t you see, it is just another Cliché No.8
They murdered the saints, in Jesus name. They lied, cheated, steal, and hated everything in Jesus name.

The foolish virgins prayed in Jesus name.
They believed God’s grace covered them.
They believed they were born again.
They believed Jesus died for their sins.
They believed everyone prays to the same God etc. etc.
But Jesus said to them, depart from Me, I never new you!

You can know about the Queen of England, but that does not mean you know the Queen, because you read about her in a book does not mean you know her.
It is the same with Jesus.
You can know about Jesus, but that does not mean that you know Him.
Because you read about Him in the Bible, does not mean you know Jesus.

Jesus said, if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. John 8:24
Remember the foolish virgins!

December 08, 2006 8:17 PM   Edit
Anonymous kellie said...

A buddist will not pray in jesus name because they are praying to budda.

We are praying to the father so we pray in his name.

Gods grace is evident in people. It will always lead them to right believing and right living. those foolish virgins thought they didnt need Gods grace.

December 09, 2006 11:54 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Kellie:
Any person praying to Buddha, can NOT pray in Jesus name, even though they say so.
Any person praying to Jehovah, can NOT pray in Jesus name, even though they say so.
If you or any person is praying to the Father, who is another person other than Jesus, can NOT pray in Jesus name, even though you say so.

If you or any person prays to the Father who is Jesus, then you pray in Jesus name and do not have to put in a cliché (in Jesus name) at the end of your prayer.

If your earthly Father’s name is John, every time you talk to him and say at the end of your talk, “in John’s name.”
What do you think your Father John will say to you?

Perhaps he will say.
Kellie! Grow up and stop that silly cliché. By this time you should know me.

So is it with the Lord Jesus your heavenly Father, when He said, “Kellie, have you not yet come to know Me, after I have been such a long time with you. John 14:9

December 09, 2006 7:39 PM   Edit
Anonymous kellie said...

as you can see in the bible the diciples used 'in jesus name' all the time.

What does this show us?

December 10, 2006 7:20 PM   Edit
Anonymous Samuel said...

Cliche 8:
"My job is to tell you and everyone the truth..."

Or perhaps this is more of an Irony than a cliche?

December 12, 2006 9:09 PM   Edit
Anonymous Samuel said...

Cliche 9:
"Puritan Belief"

...but what the puritans believed (namely the Triune nature of God) is a dispicable lie of the antichrist.

December 12, 2006 9:10 PM   Edit
Anonymous Samuel said...

BTW

the 10 virgins did not pray at all. They were standing by the road with lanterns waiting for a wedding feast to begin with the passing by of the groom.

Not about preyer at all but about being prepared for the second comming of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

December 12, 2006 9:12 PM   Edit
Anonymous Samuel said...

BTW

the 10 virgins did not pray at all. They were standing by the road with lanterns waiting for a wedding feast to begin with the passing by of the groom.

Not about preyer at all but about being prepared for the second comming of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

December 12, 2006 9:12 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Personally I'm having a hard time making heads or tails of whether everyone here is being serious.

In any rate, here's my question, er... questionS:

1) So basically, God created most people just so they would go to Hell and curse Him, and He WANTS them to stay that way and He WANTS them to suffer horribly for all eternity. Most people end up enduring this fate because that's why they were created: to suffer.
Is this basically correct? If so, why should I trust that such a Being is "good" when He seems to create beings purely to torture them for entertainment?

2) On what basis does one insist that they are among the "elect"? Because they do good things? Because they believe in TULIP and all of other John Calvin's theories? (By the way, John Calvin seemed to feel no pangs of conscience watching a man burn to death.) Because they pray to Jesus daily? This seems presumptuous, doesn't it? How does one know one isn't going to later "fall away" and no longer believe like so many have done?

I asked this on Rand's blog (http://aformofsoundwords.blogspot.com) but he just laughs at my questions. PB used to visit his blog too until Rand called him a heretic and a bunch of other names because of something about the Trinity. So Rand thinks PB's going to Hell.

This is all too confusing to me ... who's saved, who's not.

December 15, 2006 2:56 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Samuel:
You prefer to believe in some Puritans, who believed the lie of the Antichrist, instead of believing in Jesus who is the truth.
God does NOT have a triune nature.

I was talking about the FIVE foolish virgins, who perhaps waited for two more persons to come.

The FIVE wise virgins were joined to the Lord, because He made Himself known to them. They knew who He was, and did not believe He was three persons. He loved them and elected them, not of works or being ready, but by grace.

December 16, 2006 10:15 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Anonymous:
Your assumption is basically incorrect.
If you would know that Being Who is called God, as you have said, you would call Him by His name “JESUS”, but more likely you do not believe that Jesus is that God the Bible speaks about.
Your question should have been!
If God created every human being for salvation, and He could not save everyone, then He would be an impotent savior.
Just like a builder who wants to build a house and can not do it, whatever excuses he has, he is an impotent builder.
The God I know and proclaim Jesus Christ is NOT like that.
He is an omnipotent all powerful savior who does not lose one of His elect whom He died for.

Question 2
The elect have received a new life, a new birth and as a deposit the Spirit of the living God. Eph. 1:13+14
They hear His voice and when anybody else speaks, they do not go after them. John 10:4+5
Perhaps some might believe the doctrine (TULIP) like me who has been taught by Jesus and not by John Calvin.
I do NOT believe Calvin’s doctrines because they are mainly catholic and I reject every catholic doctrine because they are Antichrist.
It would be good for you to believe the TULIP doctrine, but it is better to believe in Jesus Christ, for salvation comes from Jesus and NOT the tulip.

December 17, 2006 7:44 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here is another cliche: Jesus is fully God and fully Man. Talk about illogical.

Brian M.

December 21, 2006 5:33 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

If you love the truth and someone says:

God is three persons!

You do not need to be very intelligent to know that that person is a deceived.
2 Thess. 2:11
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
Every Trinitarian church is deceived and has fallen away from the one and only true God the Lord Jesus Christ to another god, whom they call Jehovah or Yahweh etc. etc.
Rev. 18:4
Come out from among them and be separate, lest you partake of her sins.

Anonymous:
Jesus Christ is the only true God who is Spirit became flesh, borne into His own creation (or if you like manifested Himself in His own creation) so that we can look at God and live.
This is the testimony which every believer in Jesus Christ who is not an apostate should have.
This is true and not a cliché.

December 21, 2006 7:03 AM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

please explain Acts chapter 16.

Paul and Silas thrown in prison-- they preach the word to the jailer, and the jailer asks, "What must I do to be saved?"

I wonder what would have happened if Paul looked at the jailer and said, "Sorry, you are not elect."

December 21, 2006 8:04 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Anonymous:
Nobody knows who the elect is, save the Lord Jesus.
If a man inquires of the Lord, that means that the Father draws him to Jesus, John 6:44 and he will be saved.
And when we see the signs of salvation, then we know! He is one of the elect, and we rejoice with him and call him brother.



Anybody:
Question;
When Jesus was in the manger as a little baby, where was God?
And who was ruling the universe?

Please give me an answer, if you like from the Bible, or just your understanding.

December 21, 2006 9:42 PM   Edit
Anonymous kellie said...

ok, so just thoughts here to pauls question...i should get my bible out but its in the other room...

anyway...when jesus was in the manger where was God? well he was in the manger...

who was ruling the universe?.. God was.

another thought ive been thinking is that in the bible it says that the lamb was slain BEFORE time began.

God knew us BEFORE time began...

so even though God is in the manger...he lives in eternity and rules the universe from this perspective

December 22, 2006 3:22 PM   Edit
Anonymous Riven said...

Anonymous - The Lord must have revealed himself to the Jailer.

Matthew 13:11 & onwards

Jesus replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Only God himself can spiritually open someones eyes:-

"Though seeing, they do not see"

Only God can make your deaf ears hear:-

"though hearing, they do not hear or understand"

What happens if they try to be saved on their own choice:-

"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;you will be ever seeing but never perceiving"

What was revealed to the Jailer and not to the churches whom spoke with God face to face?

If it was human decision or you had to be convinced then the Churches would not have had murdered Jesus.

The Bible says this simply as:-

John 1:13
"who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

December 24, 2006 9:56 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Thank you Kellie, I thought you would know the answer.
I also thought somebody ells would like to give glory to God in the manger.
A Scriptural answer; God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. 2 Cor. 5:19

Riven:
Good answer, about the Jailer!

December 24, 2006 11:39 AM   Edit
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February 20, 2013 12:02 PM   Edit

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