Lord of Lords King of Kings
"They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of Lords and King of Kings...."Rev 17:14"On his robe and on his thigh he has his name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS"
I love Revelations because to the sanctified we know who our victorious Lord really is. The secret of who is God has been revealed: it is Jesus the one that became one of us. There is no other God then Jesus who ALONE is the Almighty Lord, God and King. The one who was and is and is to come. Although His glory was veiled in flesh for a time the true Christians can now look upon Jesus with open faces and know him to be just like ISAIAH prophesied.
"His name will be Wonderful, Councillor, The mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" Isaiah 9:6
Those that are saved believe that Jesus is Lord. Is there another Lord we must believe in such as the Father who is a different Lord? Answer: Impossible because Jesus is the Lord of Lords.
When we believe Jesus to be Lord of Lords we are believing Him to be the God and Father of all.
The Father is referred to as Lord throughout scripture. Now if the Jesus is not the Father then we entertain in our hearts another lord, another god, another gospel, another belief no matter how hard you rationalise it in your mind.
Add Your Comment(126)
Lord of Lords King of KingsPosted by Correy Sunday, July 16, 2006
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
126 Comments:
Spot on PB,
All the trinitarians imply and say that I deny the Father, and yet I confess and own Jesus as my Father Who is in heaven.
Yet all trinitarians deny and disown Jesus to be their Father who is in heaven.
They say their Father is another person than Jesus, somebody else.
I wonder who??
If any person has another Father than I, then that person is not my brother or sister in Christ,
they belong to another Father.
It is like that in the natural and in the spiritual.
Why is that so difficult for you to understand and believe,
maybe the god of this world has blinded the eyes of the unbelieving.
I am not as much concerned about your doctrines, I am more concerned about your souls.
Jesus said, if you do not believe that I am (HE), you will die in your sins.
That (HE) means the EVERLASTING FATHER.
You are DENYING the EVERLASTING FATHER Jesus Christ to be your Father.
You are denying the Father.
Paul, i love those verses - John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[a] you will indeed die in your sins." and John 8 : 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
But something doesnt sit right when u said:
'I am not as much concerned about your doctrines, I am more concerned about your souls.'
i know that you are concerned for peoples souls, but do you believe that people who believe in the Trinity - (God the Father , God the son and God the holy spirit) R going to hell? This is like samantha saying that those who deny the trinity are going to hell.
When Jesus said you will die in your sin if you dont believe i am he, i dont think he was saying you will die in your sin if you believe in the trinity. Jesus revealed himself in ordinary terms as the savior of our souls, the redeemer, the one sent by God for the redemtion of his children. The question should be, do we believe Jesus to be our personal saviour and Lord? This is what will determine our eternity.
For clarification, allforlove, I never said, "Those who deny the Trinity are going to hell."
So please retract your statement.
Thanks-
d
you said : To all that are non-Trinitarians, I have to admitt....
You are not serving Jesus Christ, the Savoir in God's written Word. You are serving your own god.
If we are serving our own God then where will our eternity be? sorry i should of said...like sam implied... From your words it sounds like you have implied it...and this is the same as saying it.
No hostility here. Im just keeping the main point the main point...that jesus christ is our savior and redeemer, the holy messiah sent to be our sacrafice so we are now in right standing with God the father. Lets meet on the middle ground and lift Jesus Christ up. sometimes it hard to settle our differences of opinion but as long as Jesus Christ is lifted up as our personal savior and master he will not be our stumbling block.
colossians 1 : 26
. The mystery in a nutshell is just this: Christ is in you, so therefore you can look forward to sharing in God's glory. It's that simple. That is the substance of our Message. We preach Christ, warning people not to add to the Message. We teach in a spirit of profound common sense so that we can bring each person to maturity. To be mature is to be basic. Christ! No more, no less
1 john
2-3... What we know is that when Christ is openly revealed, we'll see him—and in seeing him, become like him.
1 corinthians 13
12We don't yet see things clearly. We're squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. But it won't be long before the weather clears and the sun shines bright! We'll see it all then, see it all as clearly as God sees us, knowing him directly just as he knows us!
13But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.
allforlove,
Your question,
"Do you believe that people who believe in the Trinity R going to hell."
I am not God, and judgement belongs to the Lord, and to Him alone.
Doctrines can NOT save! the right doctrine can not save you, and a wrong doctrine does not get you to hell.
Salvation belongs to the Lord!
salvation is by grace and grace alone and not by anything a person does or does not.
Before the foundation of the world Jesus loved His children with an everlasting love, therefore with bands of kindness He has drawn them to Himself.
He shed His blood for them and only for them, and at the appropriate time He revealed Himself to them and put His Spirit into them (born again) then they cry by that Spirit Abba Father to Jesus.
They can never be lost and they will never perish for He is a mighty omnipotent saviour.
He then causes them to do and to will for His own good pleasure, and leads them into all the truth.
They love the Lord Jesus with all their heart mind soul and strength, (first commandment).
You said,
"i dont think he was saying you will die in your sin if you believe in the trinity."
I fully agree with you.
Concerning the trinity.
There are only two Fathers ,Jesus and satan.
It always troubles me when a child does not know who his or her father is.
That can only happen if the mother (church)is a harlot and really does not know who the father of her children is.
The church (mother) claims to know God but she denies that Jesus is the Father of her children.
That is because she has many gods (lovers), and really does not know who the father of her children is.
Those children belong to the other father the devil.
That is why a person must be born again not by the will of the flesh or the will of man, only by the will of God.
Paul G
Thats cool, you put that well. Do you believe that there is still an aspect of God which is veiled and will only be revealed when we see him face to face? ( see the verses in my previous post above)... in no way am i saying that the law is still veiled ( for in christ it is taken away) But His fullness will only be revealed when we stand before him face to face...
1 cor 13. 9, 10, 12
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.
Why would the apostle paul ( great name :) ... Talk about the father AND son jesus christ? And what makes us different today that we change our language? Paul out of everyone i would assume had great revelation about the Father ? ... Just wondering...
allforlove
ps, you sound really familiar?
Scripture on the Trinity:
http://www.studylight.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4195
I really have no idea what God's judgment will be to those who teach & partake in heresy. There is only one unforgivable sin, right?
There are also certain doctrines that I believe are essential for salvanic purposes (these are just a few):
EX: Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. No one goes to the Father except THROUGH Him. (Oddly enough, He is the bridge between us and the FATHER (?))...
EX: Saved by grace through faith
EX: Works cannot save us
EX: The Trinity
Samantha,
Your examples of doctrines are no doctrines at all, they are statements.
Two statements of the Bible,
two statements of your own,
a doctrine is the explanation ,the teaching of the statement.
Every believer agrees with every statement of the Bible,
if the teaching (doctrine) of that statement is not true and is a lie ! that person agrees with a lie, if the doctrine is true, that person agrees with the truth.
You can only believe, proclaim, teach, testify and preach the TRUTH, or a LIE!(nothing in between.)
So make every effort to proclaim the TRUTH.
Example:
Saved by Grace,
In your church they probably say,
"of course you are saved by grace, BUT you must be baptised,
you must repent of your sins,
you must give your heart to Jesus,
you must say the sinners prayer,
etc. etc. etc.
Samantha!
What a person really believes comes always after the BUT.
In that example, that person with that doctrine believes the opposite to (saved by grace.)
This is why the Lord tells us to be sound in doctrine and have a full understanding of the truth.
Behind every lie is a spirit, the devil and he is the father of all lies.
Behind all truth is the Holy Spirit the Father of all truth who became flesh Jesus Christ our Lord, who is the Way the Truth and the Life.
To all trinitarians!
Jesus is the Lord of Lords.
If the Father is a separate person, then Jesus would be Lord over His Father.
So Jesus can only be the Lord of Lords if He is the Father just as He said.
Is there any trinitarian who can give me an AMEN ?
I wonder how you claim to have complete knowlegde of what God says in scripture. The Catholics believe they are right, the Baptists, the Mormons, the JW's, the Calvinists, the Evangelicals, etc. etc. ALL BELIEVE THEY ARE RIGHT!
If you want to know what I beleive (ps, baptism does not save, Christ saves) then visit my blog. Otherwise, I'm sorry I got mixed up in the conversation.
Paul,
You said:
In your church they probably say,
"of course you are saved by grace, BUT you must be baptised,
you must repent of your sins,
you must give your heart to Jesus,
you must say the sinners prayer,
etc. etc. etc.
I know that there is no formula for the way God saves, but there are some obvious fruits which follow. These dont save you, they come FROM being saved!
What would you say to someone who isnt 'saved' yet?
What Did Paul the apostle say to unbelievers?
What Did Jesus Preach?
Paul g,
If it is true as you say that "What a person really believes comes always after the BUT."
Now, Jesus said "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own BUT speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."
Jesus did not refer to Himself here as the Father, but refered to the Father as another. This comes after a BUT so if what you say is correct this is what Jesus truely believed.
Did Jesus believe a lie?
Did Jesus know who He was?
Modern day magi,
Yes Jesus said "But". When Jesus says BUT He speaks the truth before the BUT and after the BUT.
When you and all trinitarians say BUT you speak a statement of truth before the BUT and after the BUT you speak a lie and deny the truth
eg.
"Of course I believe the Lord Thy God is One BUT He is three" etc etc
This is so with you and every trinitarian. You are preaching another Jesus and not the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I own Him to be my Father Who is in heaven. You disown Him to be your Father. I testify to Him, you testify to another Father. I honour Him, you Honour somebody else, your Father whoever that might be. I declare Him to be the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.
You declare Him to be a little king and a little Lord.
And because of that you are preaching another spirit and not the Spirit who I have received at my birth (spiritual birth)
Because you are preaching another spirit you also preach another gospel and not the gospel which I preach. About that gospel I would have much to say.
By searching the scriptures you cannot know the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, you have to be willing to come to my Jesus, if you come to my Jesus you have come to Mount Zion the mountain of God, to the New Jerusalem the city of the great King, to the assembly of the first born, accompanied by myriads of angels, and you will see Jesus face to face as He is, the King of Kings, The Lord of Lords, the bright and morning star, the Lilly of the valley, the heavenly bridegroom Who receives His virgin bride to Himself.
So then all of you do not play church, do not play religion but enter through the narrow gate and that gate is Jesus.
paul, could you help me out a little bit?
i said : "i dont think he was saying you will die in your sin if you believe in the trinity."
and then you fully agreed
Then you said to MDM : "You are preaching another Jesus ...You disown Him to be your Father... you testify to another Father....And because of that you are preaching another spirit . Because you are preaching another spirit you also preach another gospel."
Tell me if im wrong, but Jesus is the way the truth the life and no one comes to the father except through him...now where does that put the eternity of trinitarians who preach a different Jesus?
i have my own conclusions to this but want to hear what u say.
Paul,
"When Jesus says BUT He speaks the truth before the BUT and after the BUT."
EXACTLY!
Truth 1: "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own..."
Who did Jesus claim to be?
The Pharisees point this out clearly for us. "The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God." (John 19:7)
and
“Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." (John 10:32-33)
Truth 2: “[I] speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.”
What is Jesus saying here?
Jesus spoke only what the Father taught Him and that the Father was with Jesus and that Jesus does what pleases the Father.
Question 1: How else can you interpret this passage without altering it behind the flimsy and deceitful guise of ‘spiritual discernment?’
As to the ‘false gospel’ you accuse me of preaching, this is a misplaced and offensive accusation. You wrote “you have to be willing to come to my Jesus”
My willingness has nothing to do with my salvation. I was purchased by the Blood of Jesus according to His divine will, not my own. “[Salvation] does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." – Romans 9:16
The Gospel is that Salvation is only by the Blood, Grace, and will of Jesus, the Lamb of God, the Only begotten Son of God, who was given to pay the wages of my sin which is death.
“Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…” (1 Corinthians 15: 1-4)
Question 2: If this is an incorrect Gospel, then what would you deem the correct one?
Paul, could you address these questions。I am interested in what you believe on the issue, I know already what I believe.
MDM
BTW, I have not accused you of anything paul, and I would appreciate the same courtesey.
Great MDM,
“Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you
as of first importance:
that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…” (1 Corinthians 15: 1-4)
This is how we LIFT UP Christ and this is the ROCK on which we stand on!
If this is the confession of your heart which overflows out of your mouth than you are saved brother :)
Puritan Belief:
I do think that John Piper errs in much of what he says. But on your last post and this post, how do you reconcile I Corinthians 15:23-28 with what you are saying?
To all Trinitarians!
JESUS IS THE KING OF KINGS!
If the Father is a separate person,
then he would also be a King, and then there are two Kings, and Jesus would be the King over His Father.
Jesus Christ is the King of every King and there is no greater one than He.
You trinitarians say,
all three persons are equal.
Jesus said " the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
Jesus said to worship the FATHER in Spirit and truth.
All the disciples and I, we worship Jesus!
are we disobeying Jesus???
who do you worship??
Your Jesus is another Jesus than the one which we preach, and not the King of Kings of the Bible.
paul,
again you have not even attempted to answer the questions asked of you.
You say there is no Father, yet Jesus said "the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
Please do not aviod the issue, please address these questions.
Question 1: How do you interpret
John 8:28-29, without altering the text behind the guise of 'spiritual discernment'?
Question 2: If 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 is an incorrect Gospel, then what would you deem the correct one?
Paul I ask again please address these questions, and I ask again the courtesey of not trying to define what I believe as you clearly do not understand the Trinity doctorine.
MDM
paul g said,
You trinitarians say,
all three persons are equal.
Jesus said " the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)
I fail to see how this helps your case.
For Jesus to say that His Father is greater than He, is certainly consistent with the biblical belief that Jesus is the second of three Persons in the nature of the One Eternal God. Jesus the Son, not the Father, became a Man. In His Humanity He voluntarily took on the role of submission to God the Father. If Jesus and the Father were the same Person then He would be submitting to Himself and saying that He is greater than Himself.
But I'm sure that you are to blinded be your tradition to see the bad logic in your position.
For the Bible believing Christian this is really just Basic Theology.
I have been around a long time,
and I understand what the trinity is teaching and all their different flavours.
I am saying:
HE' can never be three.
THEY' can never be one.
You are saying:
HE' is three.
THEY' are one.
Let logic be your judge!
The doctrine of the trinity is NOT a biblical doctrine, it is a devilish doctrine cooked up by some Catholic Bishops.
This doctrine is promoted by the false spirit the antichrist and the false church to divide, deceive, seduce, and to lead the people to believe in another Jesus, and not in the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
This antichrist trinity doctrine demotes Jesus to a lesser God and reduces His supremacy in all things.
This doctrine produces proselytes (sons to the flesh) and not sons to the Spirit the Lord Jesus Christ.
This doctrine is more toxic then arminianism and it should be prayerfully examined.
In all your questions and verses of Scripture, you fail to see the Majesty and Glory of God in Jesus Christ our Lord.
I am confident that the sheep of the Lord Jesus hear His voice and when anyone else speaks they do not go after them because Jesus is the true shepherd of His sheep.
See what I mean? Tradition!
paul g said,
"I have been around a long time..."
That's nice.
"...and I understand what the trinity is teaching and all their different flavours."
If you truly understand the biblical doctrine of the Triune God why do you fail to accurately define it when you criticize it?
"I am saying:
HE' can never be three."
Do you mean the One God can never be three God's? I would agree. That would be a logical and a factual error.
"THEY' can never be one."
Do you mean the Three Persons can never be one person? I would agree. That would be a logical and a factual error.
"You are saying:
HE' is three.
THEY' are one."
You are putting word in my mouth that I would never use. When you fail to accurately define the idea you are arguing against you are simply setting up and knocking down a straw man.
"Let logic be your judge!"
When correctly understood, the doctrine of the Trinity posses no logical problem. You have assumed a logical problem and rejected the doctrine based on your false assumption. That false assumption is your traditional understanding. Your tradition forces you to read the Bible in a certain (very strange) way (i.e. "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to [myself]; for [I] is greater than I." John 14:28.)
When the Bible is allowed to speak without your tradition being forced upon it, the Personal distinction between the Father and the Son is obvious.
"The doctrine of the trinity is NOT a biblical doctrine..." TRADITION.
"...it is a devilish doctrine cooked up by some Catholic Bishops." TRADITION.
"This doctrine is promoted by the false spirit the antichrist and the false church to divide, deceive, seduce, and to lead the people to believe in another Jesus, and not in the King of Kings and Lord of Lords." TRADITION TRADITION TRADITION.
"This antichrist trinity doctrine demotes Jesus to a lesser God and reduces His supremacy in all things." TRADITION
This doctrine produces proselytes (sons to the flesh) and not sons to the Spirit the Lord Jesus Christ. TRADITION.
"This doctrine is more toxic then arminianism and it should be prayerfully examined." TRADITION.
"In all your questions and verses of Scripture, you fail to see the Majesty and Glory of God in Jesus Christ our Lord."
I know and believe Jesus Christ to be the eternal God of heaven. He is full deity. He is worthy of all majesty and glory.
But to misrepresent His self revelation because it does not square with your tradition certainly detracts from His majesty and glory.
"I am confident that the sheep of the Lord Jesus hear His voice and when anyone else speaks they do not go after them because Jesus is the true shepherd of His sheep."
Yes, this is what Jesus said. And in the same place He also said,
"I am the good shepherd; and I know My own, and My own know Me,
even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:14-18)
Paul,
again you have ignored the questions, is this because you have no answers?
Instead you rely on falsly defining what the Trinity doctorine is and then saying how this understanding is wrong. You base you hatred of the Trinity doctorine, not on any scriptural basis (for there is none), but rather on your hatred of the Catholic Church.
Catholics also proclaim Jesus died on the Cross, God created the World, Adam sinned, The Earth was flooded in the time of Noah etc. Do you hate these claims also?
As to your claim that the Catholic Bishops "coocked up" the Trinity but again this is a limited and nieve understanding.
As to the origins of Trinitarian doctorine tet us consult history for a moment.
The first time the term "catholic church" was used was in 110AD when Ignatius of Antioch uses the term catholic church in a letter to the church at Smyrna (Date disputed, some insist it was a forgery written in 250 or later. Others insist he merely meant "catholic", small "c", as in Universal.)
While the Church is obviously traced back to Jesus most historians will agree that the Catholic church as we know it today began in the fourth-century Roman Empire, when Constantine I issued the Edict of Milan in 313. Christianity was the Roman state religion from 380.
Now lets examine where the concept of the trinity comes in. The Trinity was first Officially established in 325 at the first council of Nicea. IF IT BEGINS HERE 300 YEARS AFTER JESUS WE HAVE A PROBLEM.
So we have the Catholic Church officially established in 318 AD and the Trinity offiated in 325 AD
Now lets go back a bit further.
Justin of Caesarea also known as Justin the Martyr is considered the first Christian apologist. He lived and wrote in 100-165AD (200ish years before the Catholic CHurch began)He is the first Christian writer to examine the Trinity. He uses that analogy of Fire to explain it.
God, like a fire in heaven sent His son Jesus as a fire into the world. Now if you have on lite candle and use it to light another, while there are now two location for the flame they are actually the one flame. Look at the olympic torch relay, the whole premis is that transfering the flame from one torch to another does not make new fires but simply transfers the one flame to another location.
Now this analogy is great and while Justin only examined the Father and Son it can easily be seen that on the day of pentocost when the Spirit entered believers, and flames were manifested above their heads, that while the fire entered humanity it was not a whole bunch of 'new flames' but simply the fire of God comming to mankind.
Father, the fire in heaven.
Jesus, the fire of God comming to earth.
The Spirit, the fire of God which is the Fire of Jesus entering believeers. Distinct flames but the one Fire.
Added to this the Trinity Doctorine is found wholly in scripture, cirtainly not written by Bishops but rather the inspired Word of God Himself.
Paul, please address the questions.
Question 1: How do you interpret
John 8:28-29, without altering the text behind the guise of 'spiritual discernment'?
Question 2: If 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 is an incorrect Gospel, then what would you deem the correct one?
MDM
MDM
paul wrote,
"I am saying:
HE' can never be three.
THEY' can never be one.
You are saying:
HE' is three.
THEY' are one.
Let logic be your judge!"
Scripture says:
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness""
- 1 Corinthians 3:19
Rather than logic, I rely on theb Word of God for truth.
MDM
Takin said:
'Do you mean the One God can never be three God's? I would agree. That would be a logical and a factual error.
"THEY' can never be one."
Do you mean the Three Persons can never be one person? I would agree. That would be a logical and a factual error.'
What is the doctrine of the trinity?
MDM said:
Father, the fire in heaven.
Jesus, the fire of God comming to earth.
The Spirit, the fire of God which is the Fire of Jesus entering believeers. Distinct flames but the one Fire.
MDM, do you mean different uses of the one flame instead of distinct flames?
Who is the holy spirit?
Acts 16.7 says the spirit of Jesus didnt let them go to bithyania.
Luke 24.49 says wait in the city untill the promise of my father upon you...
MDM explained from justin of cesarea... : God, like a fire in heaven sent His son Jesus as a fire into the world. Now if you have on lite candle and use it to light another, while there are now two location for the flame they are actually the one flame.
Now that we posses this flame, how are we any different to Jesus? we are the light of the world ( matt 5)
Who is the Father? His spirit is the holy spirit? Who is Jesus' spirit? The holy spirit. Who is jesus? God incarnate.
Can we ever understand fully this 'mystery'? as paul the apostle puts it?
Allforlove asked:
What is the doctrine of the trinity?
I’m glad you asked.
There is one, and only one, eternal Being which is by nature God. That is, this one eternal Being alone possesses Deity (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10).
The Father of Jesus Christ is the one eternal God (John 20:17; I Peter 1:3).
Jesus Christ is the one eternal God (John 1:1; 8:58; 20:28; Romans 9:5)
The Holy Spirit is the one eternal God (Acts 5:3, 4; II Corinthians 3:17).
There is a “Personal” distinction between the Father of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ. There is a “Personal” distinction between the Father of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. There is a “Personal” distinction between Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. In other words, the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35; Mathew 3:15, 16; 28:19)
Therefore, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the one eternal God. The Being of God is not divided between the three “Persons”. Rather, each “Person” possesses fully the Deity.
Your question seems to come from a failure to allow for the possibility of a being having any thing other than one person. Maybe this will help:
You and I are each one being. You and I are each one person. The kind of being we are is a human being. Human beings are personal beings. Each human being is limited to one person. A rock is a inanimate being. A rock is not personal. A dog is a living being yet it is not personal. Of all the personal being we know of in nature (that would be human beings) each is limited to one person. But what about the supernatural? There are created spirit beings. Angels and demons are spirit beings and they are personal. But each of these created spirit beings are limited to one person each. Every personal being in creation is limited to one person each. Our frame of reference is this world. It is hard for us to conceive of a being possessesed by more than one person.
But God is not a created Being. God is unlike anything in creation. God is the Creator. We must not force God to conform to our frame of reference. We must allow God to be the God revealed in Scripture even if it does not fit our natural frame of reference.
If God has revealed Himself to be one eternal Being co-equally and co-eternally existing in three distinct “Persons” we must bow to God as He has revealed Himself. But if we say, one being can only be one person, therefore, the one God is only one “Person”, then we are recreating God in our own image.
Modalist have assumned unitarianism and have, therefore, forced the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be different modes of the one Person. Without this unitarian assumption the three “Personal” relatrionships in the nature of the one eternal God are clearly seen on the pages of Scriture.
Thanks takin,
That was a great explination of the Trinity.
For more information about the Trinity the following articles from C.A.R.M. are helpful.
What is the Trinity?
Is the Trinity possible?
The Trinity makes no sense. It isn't logical.
Understanding the Doctorine of the Trinity is important for any Christian. But one should remember that "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
- 1 Corinthians 13:12
MDM
Thanks so much takin for taking the time to explain to me the trinity. I will certainly think through what you have written.
Just a few things i found hard to understand is:
you said "There is one, and only one, eternal Being which is by nature God"
then you said : . In other words, the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35; Mathew 3:15, 16; 28:19)"
But they are still all the eternal God? in my logical mind i see this as triplets.
i am a twin. You know how twins are formed, I am a distinct person completely seperate from my sister yet we came from one. Does this mean i am completely my sister's identity as well as my own?
you're right, im probably coming from this at an angle of understanding God is one distinct person not 3 distinct persons in one.
you said: It is hard for us to conceive of a being possessesed by more than one person."
Yeah it is kinda hard for me to get my head around it. But its just as hard for me to also get my head around The Father being Jesus.
Though there is something to it...Jesus said the fathers name was the name the father gave Jesus...that would make it Jesus. John 16 or 17
You said:"God is unlike anything in creation."
true, only God is God the creator of everything, but God made us in his image. He is transforming us into the image of jesus. When we see him face to face we will be like him. So is God unlike anything in creaton? We are like him.
Paul says we have a body, soul and spirit. Do you think God has a body soul and spirit?
Sorry Adam. It is true.
Please see my previous comment.
Allforlove said...
“But they are still all the eternal God? in my logical mind i see this as triplets.”
James White, in his book the Forgotten Trinity, said, “They [the Father, Son and Holy Spirit] have eternally existed in this unique relationship. Each of the persons is said to be eternal, each is said to be coequal with the others as to their divine nature. Each fully shares the Being that is God. The Father is not 1/3 of God, the Son 1/3 of God, the Spirit 1/3 of God. Each is fully God, coequal with the others, and that eternally. There never was a time when the Father was not the Father; never a time when the Son was not the Son; never a time when the Spirit was not the Spirit. Their relationship is eternal, not in the sense of having been for a long time, but existing, in fact, outside the realm of time itself.” (pp. 27, 28)
Allforlove said...
“i am a twin. You know how twins are formed, I am a distinct person completely seperate from my sister yet we came from one. Does this mean i am completely my sister's identity as well as my own?”
You and your sister are distinct persons. But you and your sister are also separate beings. There is no analogy between your relationship to your sister and the relationships in the nature of God.
Allforlove said...
“true, only God is God the creator of everything, but God made us in his image. He is transforming us into the image of jesus. When we see him face to face we will be like him. So is God unlike anything in creaton? We are like him.”
We can share in certain attributes of God: personality, love, righteousness. But other attributes of God are limited to God alone: omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence.
Much of the image of God in man was lost in the fall. It is that image that is being restored to the elect in Christ (Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10).
But saying that God created man in His own image is a far cry from saying we can in any way define God by man. That would be to create God in man’s image. "To whom then will you liken Me That I should be his equal?" says the Holy One.” (Isaiah 40:25)
Allforlove said...
“Paul says we have a body, soul and spirit. Do you think God has a body soul and spirit?”
God is spirit (John 4:24). God is not three spirits. God is one eternal spirit Being. Within the nature of the one eternal spirit Being are three distinct “Persons.” One of the three “Persons” entered time and space and took on a second nature. He became a man. In this second nature, as a human being, he possesses a human body and a human immaterial nature. In His divine nature He is spirit.
Here's the James Whit link.
takin:
The trinity doctrine you believe has been cooked up a long time before you were born by the antichrist church, she also believes that God has a mother.
What I was saying:
HE can not be THEY and
THEY can not be HE.
HE is always one and
THEY are always many.
And God is a HE! Jesus Christ and there is no one else who shares in His deity.
No other person no other spirit, only Jesus Christ.
All Scripture speaks of Him only!
for Him, in Him, by Him, through Him, (one person).
All Scripture is understood and discerned only in Him, by Him, and through Him, Jesus Christ the only true God! 1 John 5:2o
There is NO other person who is God! He alone is Lord to the glory of the Father, not to the glory of another person, to the glory of the Father, that is Himself exactly as Jesus said in John 14:7-10 .
I am telling you all along that Jesus is the Father, and yet you do not believe me.
If you would know Jesus you would know the Father also.
What kind of sons are you, if you do not know your Father??
As for me, I know my Father who is in heaven Jesus Christ and He is not three persons, nor does He has a multiple personality.
My heavenly Father loves me, I am born of Him and He made Himself known to me, that's why I declare Him.
Just as an observer, I must ask: Aren't you all glad we no longer burn people alive at the stake for theological differences!!
Phew!!
After all the public heretic roastings, I'm not sure there'd be a person left, since I've yet to find two Christians who agree on 100% of everything.
- Jim
Hi Jim,
There have been times in history when church governments and state governments were mingled. In those times heresy was criminalized. The penalty was sometimes death. This was never the design of Christianity.
I too am glad those days are over. I am opposed to any church being the state church. I am also opposed to any attempt (in the name of separation of church and state) to try to eliminate the presence of Christianity in public life.
There are still places in the world where your can be killed for your theology. There are still people who believe theology is important enough to die for. I am one of them. I thank my God that I have not been called upon to give my life for what I believe, but by His grace I would be willing to.
But I have a couple questions for you. Has your belief system (whatever it may be) brought you to a place where you know for certain that if you were to die today that you would be with God forever? And, if you were to die today and God were to say to you, “Jim, why should I let you into my heaven?” what would you say?
Sincerely,
T. Akin
hey takin,
God says he creates us in his image...so u pointed out that in our perfect state we show the same characteristics such as love, kindness etc...
so to make God in our image what would he look like?
You said:
We can share in certain attributes of God: personality, love, righteousness.
then you said:
But other attributes of God are limited to God alone: omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence...did you also mean Trinity?
how sure are you of that statement? just hear me out...maybe i dont even know what im saying, but if God is a trinity then i must be a trinity also. How do you know that when we are in eternity we wont hold the same attributes? At the moment we dwell in time...we are limited by our bodies...like Jesus was...Maybe im crazy, but has anyone else thought this? We are spirit beings, known to God before time begain...entered time in a body...restored to eternity in spirit... i think im just weird hehe
Attributes of God we will never have are:
1. the creator
we are the created and will always be in submission to him and his plan. He alone can save, we can never save.
2. the Father
We are Gods children... will a child ever rule over the Father who created them? This is why we will never be equal to God.
I know there's prob more...what r they?
A short explanation,
John 1:3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 4:24
God is Spirit, or (a) Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit (one person).
It is the same Spirit who was over the waters in Gen. 1:2 who created everything.
Throughout the old testament His name was not revealed, no one knew His name.
Gen. 32:29 Jacob asked for His name, it was not revealed to him.
Judg. 13:17 Manoah asked for His name, it was not revealed to him.
God was known by the title Lord Exod. 6:2 even though God said His name is jealous Exod. 34:14.
However His name is not jealous,
because that is not a name.
No one new His name, so people made up names like Yahweh Jehovah etc. etc.
The first time when the whole creation knew His Name, when the Angel said to Mary, you shall call Him Jesus Luke 1:31.
And then the whole creation rejoiced, Hallelujah!! we know Gods only Name, the most wonderful Name the Name which is above every Name.
The same Spirit in Genesis the Holy Spirit (one person) came upon Mary and the holy one shall be called the son of the most high God Luke 1:32+35 .
Note "He shall be CALLED the son of the most high God."
He is not the son of another person, He is the Holy Spirit incarnate in flesh. God became a man. God who is Spirit is clothed in flesh, veiled the incarnate deity, as Charles Wesley said.
The Holy Spirit (one person) became flesh (the same Person)
who created you in His image,
one person spirit, soul, and body.
Like Jesus,
Spirit, (The holy Spirit)
soul, (Isaiah 1:14)
body, (Jesus)
A spirit is a person with or without a body like God who does not need a body, but He has a body to be like one of us, a brother, a friend, a father, a bridegroom, etc.
God the Almighty Jesus came into His creation as the only begotten (one of a kind) in the order of Melchizedek priest of the most high God.
Many Scripture passages can only be explained in that order, the order of Melchizedek.
This is a short explanation,
true, reliable, and trustworthy.
The trinity is not true, not reliable, and not trustworthy.
T Akin asks: "if you were to die today and God were to say to you, 'Jim, why should I let you into my heaven?' what would you say?"
Is this a trick question?
Well, I will quote Matthew 25:31-46. In all honesty, I will tell Him that I did what He said: "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."
Then, if He starts saying something about those being irrelevant, I will ask Him whether Christ died for me. If He says He did, then I will say "Good! Then there is nothing left for me to do."
If He says Christ DIDN'T die for me, I will ask Him why not. If He tells me it's so that those He DOES choose to let in will be more thankful when they see me frying in a vat of Crisco for all eternity, I will say, "That's not very nice. Why will they be happier knowing I suffer?"
Various reasons are given for punishing the wicked; first, that God will vindicate His injured majesty. Well, I am glad of that! Second, He will glorify his justice -- think of that! Third, He will show and glorify His grace. Every time the saved shall look upon the damned in hell it will cause in them a lively and admiring sense of the grace of God. Every look upon the damned will double the ardor and the joy of the saints in heaven. Can the believing husband in heaven look down upon the torments of the unbelieving wife in hell and then feel a thrill of joy? That's the old doctrine -- not of our days; we are too civilized for that. O! but it is the old doctrine that if you saw your wife in hell -- the wife you love, who, in your last sickness, nursed you, that, perhaps supported you by her needle when you were ill; the wife who watched by your couch night and day, and held your corpse in her loving arms when you were dead -- the sight would give you great joy. That doctrine is not preached to-day. They do not preach that the sight would give you joy; but they do preach that it will not diminish your happiness. That is the doctrine of every orthodox minister in New York, and I repeat that I have no respect for men who preach such doctrines. The sight of the torments of the damned in hell will increase the ecstasy of the saints forever! On this principle a man never enjoys a good dinner so much as when a fellow creature is dying of famine before his eyes or he never enjoys the cheerful warmth of his own fireside so greatly as when a poor and abandoned wretch is dying on his doorstep. The saints enjoy the ecstasy, and the groans of the tormented are music to them.
- Jim
Paul
I wrote in the Piper thread, thinking it was still active, but since we're having the same debate again here, here's my piece.
So, when Jesus is preparing for His death and resurrection, He is at His most blunt with His disciples. He has dispensed with types and parables. This converstation is recorded in the Gospel of John.
How about John 16:13?
When he, the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak, and he will shew you things to come. (note, 3rd person pronoun, and "not speaking of Himself" distinction of messenger and source of message)
16:16 "... I go to the Father"
16:23 Shall ask me nothing,. ... shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. (me, he: distinction)
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever. (I, Father as 3rd person, Comforter as 3rd person)
John 5:22 Seems to be a tough one for one such as yourself to wiggle out of, too.
How can the Father judge no man, but COMMIT all judgement to the Son?
This presupposes 1) that one called Father has a right to judge, but opts to CONFER said right a personality distinct from His own.
Otherwise, the Father has not confered it to anyone, and does judge every man. Has Scripture lied?
No.
The ONE Godhead, equal in Glory, Honor, Power and dignity is present in 3 distinct co-eternal persons.
So, how could Jesus obey himself, forsake and be forsaken by himself, have a divided will, etcetera.
The question I ask, Paul, honestly expecting nothing more than a wise-ass answer is this:
Why did Jesus use different pronouns for Father, Son and Spirit? Was he confused? Neurotic? Did He have Multiple personality disorder? Was he trying to mislead/deceive/confuse His disciples immediately before his death/resurrection/ascension? Do you doubt the infallibility of Scripture, perhaps you believe John mis-quoted Him? do you need to correct Christ's "obviously flawed doctrine?"
I'm waiting for a response, but I don't think I'll get one.
Allforlove:
you said
"restored to eternity in spirit."
Do you not expect a resurrection of the body?
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i do expect a resurrection of the body, just not sure what that resurrection body will look like...do you know?
Paul, awesome explanation. I fully agree!
Jim,
You asked if my question: "If you were to die today and God were to say to you, 'Jim, why should I let you into my heaven?' what would you say?"
was a trick question. Let me assure you that there is no trickery involved on my part. I am as sincere as I can be in my concern for your eternal destiny.
I have great news. It’s the greatest news you will ever hear. Eternal life with God in heaven is an absolutely free gift. “…the GIFT of God is eternal life…” (Romans 6:23).
It is not something you can earn by working for it or deserve by being good. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Ephesians 2:8, 9)
The reason we could never earn or deserve heaven is because we are all sinners. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)
Sin is transgressing God’s law. And because we have sinned we cannot save ourselves. If you would attempt to make it to heaven by being good, the Bible tells us how good you would have to be. “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mathew 5:48) “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.”
Although we are sinners God is merciful and therefore He does not want to punish us. This is because “God is love…” (I John 4:8b). But God is also just and His justice demands that He punish sin. “…I will by no means clear the guilty…” (Exodus 34:7b) “The soul who sins shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4)
There seems to be a problem. On the one hand God loves us and He doesn’t want to punish us. On the other hand God is just and He must punish sin.
God solved this problem by sending His Son Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God in human flesh. “In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us…” (John 1:1, 14) Jesus lived a perfect sinless life. He died on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of others. He rose from the grave three days later. “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all.” (Isaiah 53:6) God hates our sins but because of His love for us, He has placed them all on His Son. Christ bore our sin in His body on the cross. Now Jesus Christ offers you eternal life (heaven) as a free gift.
The gift of eternal life is received by faith. True saving faith is not just knowing about Jesus, or even believing that the story is true. True saving faith is trusting in the Person and work of Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of sin and the gift of eternal life. To the degree that you are trusting in your good works or religious effort to save you, you are not trusting in Jesus. You must trust in Jesus alone.
The free gift of eternal life is available to anyone and everyone who will by faith receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, repent of their sin and trust in Jesus alone.
Now you said a number of things about the saints in heaven and their view of the lost in hell. Simply, in response, it matters not to me what men may have preached in the past neither am I moved by what men may say today if their words are not in concert with God’s inspired Word. I’m not sure that it can be demonstrated in the Bible that those in heaven see those in hell.
As far as God’s purpose in punishing sinners, I trust that an all powerful, all knowing, completely just God will do what is right. All the punishment will be fitting. No one will ever be treated worse than they deserve. The glorious thing is that multitudes will be treated far better than they deserve.
How about you? Will you receive justice or mercy? That is the only two options.
hi adam,
Im not trying to answer for PB, but im curious...Why does it sadden your heart? its great to talk about these issues and everything, but do you believe they are what saves us? if you believe Jesus Christ is the savior of your soul and set you right with the father...and non trinitarians believe the same, why does this sadden your heart? Why arent you rejoycing that BP has JC living in his heart despite opinion? Bottom line IS : Jesus Christ is the messiah, sent to save us from sin to present us righteous and holy to the Father. We might never have this trinity thing figured out, but it sure can be a stumbling block to some who think its the be all and end all!
Excellent Adam!
I would only add that promoting preaching and worshipping a god other than the One True God of the Bible is idolatry. The JW’s worship a god. But it is not the God of the Bible. They are idolaters. The Mormons worship a god. But their god is not the God of Bible. They are Idolaters. The Muslims worship a god. But their god is not the God of the Bible.
Is the god of the modalist the God of the Bible?
“You shall have no other gods before Me.” Exodus 20:3
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To all trinitarians,
First I would like to make it clear that I do not hate catholic people. I love all catholic people, I myself was a catholic in Europe till the Lord called me to Himself.
I do not hate trinitarian people,
I love all trinitarian people, how can I say, I love Jesus and hate my brothers with a different doctrine, (even if it is a lie.)
What I do hate is this lie, that God is three persons (trinity).
This lie is preached from most pulpits in Europe and the English speaking world.
Everyone who believes this doctrine , is preaching
another Jesus,
another Spirit,
another Gospel.
The axe is laid at the root of this wicked doctrine, and I am trying hard to cut it down.
Takin you said,
"Now Jesus offers you eternal life (heaven) as a free gift. The free gift of eternal life is available to anyone and everyone who will by faith receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, repent of their sin and trust in Jesus alone."
This is that other Gospel (false Gospel) which all trinitarian preach.
Takin, Jesus does NOT OFFER salvation to everyone or anyone.
Salvation is NOT AVAILABLE to everyone who will receive it.
A man is not born again by the will of the flesh or the will of man but the will of God. John 1:13
I call this a SMORGESBORD salvation Gospel.
Where everyone who will can go and help themselves for salvation.
Jesus has done it all at Calvary, now its up to you!
you have to believe it,
you have to repent of your sins,
you have to trust in Jesus,
you have to receive Jesus by faith,
etc.etc.
Or! God has given each a measure of faith, now you have to activate that faith and reach out to receive Jesus, then you are saved.
This false gospel has its roots in trinitarianism and produces proselytes (sons to the flesh) and not born again believers in Jesus Christ our Lord.
The gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is not what YOU have to do, it is the finished work at Calvary.
The gospel is!
Jesus calls His people to Himself.
Jesus saves His people.
Jesus forgives their sins .
Jesus gives them life and life eternal.
etc.etc.
It is always Jesus who does things, and not the sinner. The sinner is dead in his sins and trespasses.
The sinner needs a saviour who can give him life.
Example:
Jesus stands in front of the tomb (dead person)
Then He calls with a loud voice "Lazarus come forth!" and there he was alive in Christ born again.
Lazarus did absolutely nothing, he could not even call on His name to be saved he was dead.
Salvation is by grace and grace alone, the scripture said "the dead shall hear His voice and live." John 5:25 (Born again.)
Paul,
just wondering.
Referencing John 2- verse 17.
"Jesus saith unto her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my bretheren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
1) To whom does Jesus claim to be ascending?
2) To whom does he refer when he says 'my God'?
Acts 7:55 how did Stephen have a vision of Jesus standing on the right hand of God?
I only wish I had time to write!
How many Trinitarians believe that salvation is of the Lord? Thousands upon thousands upon thousands.
How many modalist believe salvation is entirely a work of their god? I only know of three (unless, of course, the United Pentecostal Church believes in the doctrines of grace.)
p.s. Paul, you criticized the following statements of mine as if they somehow denied the doctrines of grace:
"Now Jesus Christ offers you eternal life (heaven) as a free gift...The free gift of eternal life is available to anyone and everyone who will by faith receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, repent of their sin and trust in Jesus alone."
Please note that I said nothing about the ability of fallen man, dead in his tresspasses and sin's, to respond apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
I only spoke of the offer of salvation (great response Adam. Thanks!) And that offer is universal. For "WHOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." (Romans 10:13)
Apart from both being scriptral truths, what does the Trinity doctorine have to do with Election doctorines?
How does believing in the Trinity equate to denying God's sovereign Election?
Paul g, are you simply trying to change the subject as you have no scriptural support in denying the Trinity?
MDM
adam, i agree...modalism doesnt work...thats obvious.
I dont fully understand the doctrine of trinity because there are verses claiming Jesus is the Almighty God.
i also dont understand how Jesus can be talking to himself and how steven had a vision of Jesus at the right hand of the Almighty.
i have a feeling that i wont know untill i see him face to face.
What i do know is that he saved me, and through him i am right with the Father.
Any belief that sets Jesus as below the Father and a lesser god or as a brother of lucifer as mormons put it, is in error and preaching another Jesus ( Jw's, mormons, muslims , islam...)
Im also not sure about the different doctrins concerning the relationship between the father son and holy spirit,....But we should be careful or we could go as far and say calvanism or free will or tounge speaking people or those who dont speak in tounges, or those who arnt baptised are not serving the true Jesus Christ. In fact, like Jim said, there is rarely two christians who agree 100% on everything.
The question to ask is...Is Jesus Christ being lifted up as the son of God, the savior, the God incarnet?...when he is lifted up, we will know he is the one he claimed to be.
all4love
typical trinitarians believe Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be One God, co-equal and co-eternal. We reject the idea of a lesser Jesus as put forward by mormans, jw, islam, etcetera.
We do not believe Jesus to be anything less than fully divine.
Note, many of the arguments which paul g uses to call the trinity irrational, he would reject if someone tried to apply them to the dual nature of Christ. (fully God -fully man) Let his own arguments show whether he is internally consistant.
wes,
thats great.
Does Christ have a triune nature?
Allforlove,
Are you are asking if Christ’ human nature is body soul AND spirit or body soul/spirit?
His human nature is the same as every other man (only without sin). Christians disagree on whether the human soul is distinct from the human spirit or if soul and spirit, in the context of the human nature, are synonyms.
Christ does possess (since the Incarnation) two distinct natures; Divine and human.
takin,
im aksing if christ has body , soul and spirit?
Allforlove,
To answer your question about the human nature of Christ would be to answer the same question about all men. It comes down to this: is there a distinction between the human soul and the human spirit or is the human soul and human spirit the same thing? As I have already said, Christians disagree on this point.
I tend to believe that there is a distinction between the soul and spirit. If I am correct about the distinction between the soul and spirit in the immaterial nature of man in general, then in the immaterial aspect of Jesus’ human nature there is a distinction between soul and spirit. Therefore, I would say, yes. Christ, in His humanity, possesses a body a soul and a spirit.
I’m certainly not dogmatic on this point. I could be wrong, but it wouldn’t change much of anything for me.
thats cool...im just wondering. I can see how it could be off the main topic...im just thinking that if we are all made in the image of God than he would also have body soul and spirit...and i could just be ignorant here but if christ is the body, then christ is also the soul and spirit...Im not talking about modalism cause in christs body their still exsists the soul and spirit which transends the actual body into eternity...much like our own souls. ( the difference between Christs body/soul/spirit is that it is completely his. We on the other hand have body/soul ( our own) and spirit ( Christ) . those without christ are dead...they have no spirit in them. They have their soul which makes them them, but no spirit.
is this still off topic?
This link is to a post by Gordon Cloud, it is only short and contains a really good analogy of the Trinity.
MDM
It is amazing that all of you agree with Takins smorgasbord Gospel, which is a Gospel of works and not of grace. It is a 'do it yourself Gospel'.
Not one of you agreed with me on the election salvation Gospel.
All your doctrines are catholic even your election doctrine.
Anybody who does not believe in election, will for sure preach Takins smorgasbord Gospel.
Question,
Luke 11:2 Jesus said pray:
" Father hallowed be your name your kingdom come."
What NAME is to be hallowed???
Concerning the nature:
God does not have a nature,
the nature is what God has created in His creation.
He said He created them after their kind (Genesis),
the kind is their nature, it is the area, and borders' and habits, and likes of which His creation is confined and does function.
Because God is not a created being He does not have a nature, He does not need one.
He said "I AM"
Example:
The nature of the pig: it likes to live in the mud, even if you take it out and clean it, it always goes back to the mud, because his nature demands that.
The nature of the cat: if it falls in the mud, it quickly gets out and cleans itself and sits on the couch where it feels comfortable, it's nature demands that.
Angels have a nature, Adam had one nature every animal has it's own nature and every created thing has it's nature.
Adam had one nature(the nature of man).
After the fall of Adam, mankind has two natures, the nature of man and the nature of the beast.
Because of that Jesus is called the second Adam, in the likeness of the first Adam with one nature and not like you and I with two natures, (the nature of man and the nature of the serpent)the devil.
The sin of eve was to introduce a second nature into the human race.
At Calvary Jesus dealt with man's sin and the satanic nature on the cross. We have died with Him and we live in the newness of life, a brand new man old things have past away behold all things are new, and that is only the person who is born again or born of the Spirit of God.
Paul G,
Just wondering, in your (very strange) world is faith the condition for justification?
Paul,
Why do you judge so quickly?
I agree with election.
But thats not the question. the question is... who cares?
its not for us to decide so why do we bother so much?
what did Christ Tell us?
Matthew 8:19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Our role is to preach the gospel.
what is the gospel? The gospel is Love. God is love. John 3:16
Everything we do as a christan, baptism, faith, spritual growth and maturity come from being saved, not to save. We follow christ cause he called us. We press on toward the goal not to seek Gods approval, but because we have Gods approval...
I dont know where you got this smorgesbord gospel from , but its a distraction off what christ has called us too...and thats to be like him. Selfless LOVE
His grace is all we need to help us.
paul,
concerning the word nature...what other word should i have used? Maybe i should of said 3 aspects body/soul/spirit. i know what nature means otherwise, but thanks for the explanations :)
Hey Everyone,
There's an interesting article by by Dan Phillips you might want to check out.
Hey takin, Great link! i was thinking the same :)
Paul g,
The Lord's Prayer is a very commonly known prayer. Thank you for pointing it out.
When you read this prayer in many translations, or in the other gospels where was Jesus when He prayed it?
Also where was the Father?
Paul, if you could answer the above questions from scripture that would be great.
MDM
modern day magi,
This is not the Lords prayer,
this is how you ought to pray! and if you pray, what NAME do you have to keep Holy??
The Lords prayer is in John 17.
again you dont answer questions paul, yet simply ask more in a hope to avoid the burden of proof being placed upon your shoulders.
The Doctorine of the Trinity is scripturally based, scripturally sound and is not something 'cooked up' by wicked men as you would try to claim.
Since the Trinity is the accepted truth of the Bible, could you prove from scripture that the Trinity is false?
If not, then to quote a great man of God, Martin Luther "Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe."
MDM
takin,
Faith is not the condition for justification.
Faith does not preceed justification.
Justification is the work of Jesus, accomplished at Calvary by His death burial and resurrection for all those who believe in Jesus and they have not only been justified but also sanctified and glorified.
This is a finished work which Jesus accomplished for us.
First Calvary (death of Jesus) then the new birth, life, faith, holiness, righteousness etc. etc. everything is a free gift.
So then what do we have to do?
some might say, absolutely nothing! very good,
I like to say, give thanks to Jesus and praise Him.
Takin, a man can not join my (very strange world).
A man must be born again into this very strange world which is called the Kingdom of God where Jesus is the King, and He does not share His Kingship with any other person.
Any person who is not born again cannot see this Kingdom, nor can he enter in.
Jesus said 'a man must be born again.
all4love,
In your quote, Matt.8:19.
I like the letter [a] before you said, the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
all Trinitarians,
The question I have asked you is not a trick question, it is a serious question.
Jesus said pray:
" Father hallowed be your name your kingdom come".
What NAME is to hallowed???
"The LORD is a warrior; The LORD is His name." Exodus 15:3
hey paul,
you said :First Calvary (death of Jesus) then the new birth, life, faith, holiness, righteousness etc. etc. everything is a free gift.
So then what do we have to do?
some might say, absolutely nothing! very good,
I like to say, give thanks to Jesus and praise Him.
thats great...
the jailer asked exactly the same question to paul and silas...What do i have to do to be saved? ... the answer is: Put your entire trust in Jesus...Acts 16:30
Praising and thanking him are also ways of trusting as how can you praise someone and thank someone you dont first trust :)
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Takin,
Thank you for your answer Exodus 15:3
However LORD is not a name, it is a title which means God the Almighty.
Exodus 34:14 His name is jealous,
jealous is not a name, 'I Am' is not a name, 'God' is not a name etc. etc.
God's name was not given in the old Testament.
Now God has made His name known, His name is JESUS! this is the only name God ever had and always will have.
And His name JESUS is above every name and at that name JESUS every knee should bow and every tongue confess that JESUS Christ is Lord! which means the Lord God the Almighty, the Alpha and Omega the Beginning and the End the First and the Last before Abraham was Jesus said 'I AM'.
He is the eternal God and there is no other.
When all the unbelievers blaspheme God's name, they always blaspheme the name of Jesus, because
Jesus is the name of God,
Jesus is the name of the Father,
Jesus is the name of the Son,
Jesus is the name of the Holy Spirit,
Jesus is the name by which we must be saved,
Jesus is the most wonderful NAME!!
We have to keep the name JESUS holy and there is no other name which has to be 'hallowed'.
Yes paul,
The revealed name of God is Jesus. Yes Jesus is God. Now we have covered that again (no trinitarian will disagree that Jesus is God)lets look at the Word of God and what it says about God for a moment.
Titus 1:2 says that godliness is:
"a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time" - NIV
or "cannot lie" - KJV
So here the Scripture, the Word of God tells us that God does not, and indeed cannot lie.
Since we all agree that Jesus is God let's consider just a couple of things Jesus said, even though there area many times he speaks about His Father.
Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."
Now if I said these words but it was actually me who did grant the places of honor at my left or right I would be a lier. Did Jesus lie?
John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
If I said this but was not intending to return to my father I would have lied. Did Jesus lie?
John 20:21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
Again if I said this but had actually sent myself I would have lied. Did Jesus lie?
Speaking of the second comming Jesus said in Mark 13:32
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Now if I said "no one knows this secret, not angels, not me (since 'the Son" is a title for Christ that Jesus used of himself often), but only Frank." I would have told a lie if I was indeed Frank, as I already said not even I know the secret. Did Jesus lie?
Keeping Titus 1:2 in mind, did Jesus ever lie?
MDM
The Father's Name is never said to be Jesus. The Father Son and Holy Spirit share the Name of God (YHWH). But Jesus is not the Father.
Paul seems to think that unless you believe his brand of hyper-Calvinism mixed with his oneness heresy it is because you are not regenerated. It must be convenient to simply label those who reject you doctrine as unregenerate. Then you don’t have to deal with their arguments. I think that is what you call an ad hominem.
Yes, MDM, Jesus is God, He is not the Father and He is not a liar.
modern day magi,
You and all trinitarians say that God is our Father, and we all believe that Jesus is God! BUT He is NOT our Father.
What god is your Father??
My language is straight and clear, your language is unclear, as you said yourself, that no one fully understands the trinity.
You testify against yourself that you are teaching things which you do not understand.
As to me, the mystery of God namely Christ (Col. 2:2)has been revealed and I do know, if I say I do not know, then I would be a liar.
Jesus said you know neither me nor my Father, if you would know me you would know my Father also.
You fail to see that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father.
It is NOT that another person is in Jesus, or Jesus is in another person, or that Jesus has a dual personality.
You can read the Scripture, but you do not understand the Scripture. This is because the Lord has hidden these things from your eyes.
Instead of going to Jesus for wisdom and understanding, you go to your church leaders who believe the same lies that God is three persons.
I am amazed that you who are supposed to be teachers of the Scripture do not know these things.
Takin,
(YHWH) is not a name!
What sort of a name does God have, which you can not say or pronounce?
The Jehovah Witnesses do better than you, they say that the Fathers name is WHWH which renders Jehovah.
You believe the same lie and deception as they do.
paul you said :
"My language is straight and clear, ...
wow paul...pretty big statement...maybe you should replace paul the apostle...cause it seemed he didnt know what he was talking, maybe u can help him out a little...
"16 And without controversy GREAT is the MYSTERY of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
( and no i didnt go to a pastor with this "argument")
No offense or anything :)
Question: What is the mystery thats been hidden for ages and generations?
What is revealed to little Children?
"Jesus said you know neither me nor my Father, if you would know me you would know my Father also."
Hmmmm, for someone with such clear and straight language you fail to see what you are saying yourslef. Here Jesus plainly refers to His Father as another. The words, "neither"; "nor"; and "also" clearly indicate this.
What is plain and clear through all your comments though is that you either cannot or simply will not answer any questions paul.
I ask again, did Jesus lie when he spoke in the verses I mentioned?
MDM
Allforlove:
The mystery of Godliness has been revealed to the saints. All the saints know this mystery because they have Christ in them the hope of glory.
Paul most certainly knew the mystery of Godliness especially when he was used to write the verse you used. This is because he is a child of God.
Paul.
Could you please explain what your reaction is to John 8:42. (Jesus said to them, "If God were your father, then you would love me, for I proceeded forth and came from God,nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.")
I can see it now...
(cue cheezy announcer voice)
For a limited time only, the Bible according to Paul G!
Hear such hits as Luke 3:22... "I am My beloved son in whom I am well pleased."
... Luke 4:1 "Then Jesus, being full of himself, returned from the Jordan." ...
... or who can forget:
Matthew 6:21, "not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of Me in heaven"...
...Luke 22:42. "If it is my will, I take this cup away from me, neverless, not my will, but mine be done."...
Luke 22:46. "Into my hands I commit my spirit."...
But WAIT! There's more! Order now, and we'll throw in:
Matthew 11:27 "All things are delivered unto me by me, and no man knoweth me but me, neither knoweth any man me but me and he to whom I will reveal me."
John 5:23 "That all men should honor me even as they honor me. He that honoreth not me honoreth not the me that sent me."
John 14:16 "And I wil pray to me and I will give you another Helper(me) that I may abide with you forever."
"Operators are standing by!"
So, Paul, as you wait for the orders, ponder this question:
What did Jesus' little speech in Matthew 22:41-44 mean, anyway?
The Lord said to my Lord "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool?"
And beside whom was Jesus standing during the Martyrdom of Stephen?
Do you notice who you are loving if you love Jesus?
Answer:
If God were your Father you would love ME
It is because Jesus is the Father it because when you love Jesus you are loving your lord and God. You are worshipping the one true God and Father of all simply by loving Jesus.
So, PB,
You see no inherent problem with any of the rewrites in the "Paul G Bible".
If you do, on what grounds do you, seeing as you deny the reality of the trinity?
Theophilus (Wes), very funny indeed. I could almost hear the cheezy announcer voice.
puritan belief,
hi! glad you droped by ... u should more often
point taken, but what about when paul was saying when he said we only see in part etc...? ( im trying to understand not prove a point )
what is being revealed to me at the moment and that i am certainly clear about is this :
1. The mystery that has been hidden for generations is Salvation by believing jesus died for our sins...
2. What is revealed to babes? Salvation through believing that jesus died for their sins...
3. What is the mystery that paul is proclaming among the gentiles?
Salvation by believing jesus died for their sins...
Paul was definately clear about this message.
Why Jesus? Cause he came from God is God , lived a perfect life..etc...
The trinity i dont agree with...eg The holy spirit is Jesus' spirit, that comes straight outa the bible... that already puts the trinitarian logic outa wack...But i cant say that i am clear about Father son relationship
you said : Do you notice who you are loving if you love Jesus?
Great question...even if people dont understand the relationship between the father and the son...if they are loving jesus ( as savior and Lord and God )...his grace is sufficent in our weakness...we are lifting up the Father.
wes,
that was pretty funny...but it was mockery none the less... i can also be a sarcastic person , but i really dont like that about me.
This is not my blog, but who cares anyway...lets aim for unity over agreement. If they dont agree with your way of thinking lets love people anyway! This is what we as christians are all about...
Paul G asked, in the context of the Lord’s prayer, what is the Name of the Father. I responded with, "The LORD is a warrior; The LORD is His name." Exodus 15:3. Paul G said, “Thank you for your answer Exodus 15:3 However LORD is not a name, it is a title which means God the Almighty.”
My library is small, but I was abel to find a few entries in some reference works I have:
“In the Pentateuch, the name, “Yahweh” denotes that aspect of God’s character that is personal rather than transcendent.”
The Concise Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Walter A. Elwell (Editor), Baker Book House Company, 1991, p. 202 (under the entry, GOD, NAMES OF.)
“JEHO’VAH …the name of God used in the Hebrew Scriptures…”
Unger’s Bible Dictionary,Merrill F. Unger, Third Edition, Moody Press, Chicago, 1980, p, 564
“Jehovah, Jewish national name of God…”
Strongs Exaustive Concordance Of the Bible, James Strong, MacDonald Publishing Company, p. 47 of the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary
“Yahweh. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the LORD, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and his most frequent designation in Scripture, occurring 5321 times…in the OT…”
Theological Workbook of the Old Testament, R. Laird Harris (Editor), Moody Press, Chicago, 1980, p. 210
“Yahweh. See GOD, NAMES OF.”
The Concise Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Walter A. Elwell (Editor), Baker Book House Company, 1991, p. 567
Now, Paul G’s reason for denying that Jesus had the Name YHWH in mind in that prayer is that he wants to force the Father’s Name to be Jesus. This is because Paul G is guided by his tradition which assumes unitarianism. This assumption forces Paul to read the Bible in a way that must be very similar to Theophilus (Wes)’s “The Bible according to Paul G!” readings above.
I don’t know if Jesus was specifically refering to the Name YHWH in the prayer. I think “name” in that context refers to something more than a proper name. When the petition “Hallowed be Thy name” is made, it is a prayer that God Himself would be treated as holy; not just His Name. “Name” has reference to God Himself.
But, in any case, there in nothing here to make someone think that Jesus is the Father. You can only come to that conclusion based on a unitarian assumption and tradition.
Wes
It is very easy to think you know what someone believes state it for them in a sarcastic way and then expect them to argue against your sarcasm. Just think how easy it would be to use the trinity this way. However if you would like to ask a short question on any of the verses I can try answering it for you as I do believe that Jesus is the only true God like Paul.
Allforlove:
I am very glad that you see the Spirit of Christ or the Holy Spirit to be Christ's Spirit.
In regards to the Father Son relationship. May I ask who Fathered Jesus according to scripture? This my friend is the identity of the Father.
talkin
That was a lot of words however it is complicating a simple truth. Why not just exalt Jesus to the highest, most exalted position in your doctrine instead.
By the way most well thought out trinitarians will admit that the Fathers name is the same as Jesus.
The defining point of a Christian is "What has this person got to say about Jesus" who is the Jesus they worship and love.
Is Jesus the chief cornerstone of their faith or has he been demoted to second place and become their stumbling block.
Great you asked that question my friend :) Of course the holy spirit! ... Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you...
This is great, but still...we see in part etc?
Allforlove:
I guess I didn't ask the question right I was speaking more from the conception of Jesus. Who Fathered Him and the answer is here:
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Luke 1
Therefore Jesus must be calling the Holy Spirit His Father all along. Which begs the question who is this other person trinitarians worship calling Him Father if not the Holy Spirit Himself? (Holy Spirit is NOT the Father is Not the Son)
------------------
See in Part 1 Cor 13:9
I believe that in Jesus we have all things. He is the perfect that comes. I don't put this verse in a future dispensation but I believe that together we have the mind of Christ right now. He is the perfect that came into my life when I was bron again. I don't believe this verse to be declaring a mystery that is hidden.
Does this mean one person like me knows everything. Answer of course not.
Does this mean that if I truly seek the Lord for the knowledge about some aspect of His glory he will continually reply "No for you can only know in part now" Answer of course not.
All4love said:
".but it was mockery none the less... i can also be a sarcastic person , but i really dont like that about me...lets aim for unity over agreement. If they dont agree with your way of thinking lets love people anyway! This is what we as christians are all about..."
You misunderstand my usage.
In this thread, I have posed questions to Paul, and given replies to you in a civil tone. You have been genuinely intersted in POV other than your own, and so I have answered them in a rational way.
Paul has been railing, accusing, and being generally obnoxious in his unwillingness / inability to address objections raised to his arguments, or, worse, he deliberately mischaracterizes the position he denounces.
I began with questions based on scripture. Waiting for reasoned responses. He proceeded to virtually 'shout into the wind', apparently enamoured with the perceived force of his own arguments.
I followed the course outlined by Elijah, Paul, Jesus. I used satire.
Read the book of Galations, Paul suggested proponents of circumcision hack off their own male organs if they were so committed to their cause. I simply followed the logic of his argument to its natural conclusion. If he denies Father/Son/Spirit to have distinctiveness within the Godhead, then, properly stated, my re-write of the Bible accurately reflects his interpretation of Christology.
I will resume replies to Paul, when and if, he begins to engage in a proper discussion.
PB==> Until now, you had been largely silent on this thread.
As you are trying to defend your position in a rational manner, using Scripture, not purile rants, to bolster your view, I will attempt to answer you in kind.
PB -->
You are applying the title of Father in a way which differs from Scriptural usage.
Example:
"You are of your father the devil." did not suggest satan's involvement in conception, but rather, a yielding of will to the authority / influence of satan.
Thus, the Spirit does not fulfill the role of Father simply because of His involvement in conception. The role of Father in biblical use relates more to a son's filial submission, which Christ is shown to have done elsewhere in scripture. (ie: Phil 2.8,9; Hebrews 5:8; Romans 5:19)
Christ is shown to have submitted His will to another, His Father.
In many of my other posts, I indicated where there was a clear distinction between Father /Son /Spirit. Examples: Father has conferred judgement to the Son. Father does not judge. or John 1:1 or not my will but thine, etc.
Please clarify your position in such paradoxes. If Father=Son=Spirit (all are Jesus) then my little parody seems an accurate depiction of that Christology, and its attendent difficulties.
theopolus
Jesus made it very clear who is Father is:
from memory
"I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me you would have known my Father also from now on you know Him and have seen Him"
Do you know your heavinly Father in this way?
PB,
holy spirit is right...i was just adding another verse i found interesting at the end of luke
concerning 1 cor 13:9
You said: Does this mean that if I truly seek the Lord for the knowledge about some aspect of His glory he will continually reply "No for you can only know in part now"
Will God reveal to a person the fullness of his glory ?
Why dont you know everything?
allforlove:
you are looking at it from the wrong angle. Such is the nature of an infinite God that, even should we spend every waking hour plumbing the depths of who He is, and what He is like, and even if we had all of eternity (in this life) to do so, we would STILL not have sufficient time / capacity to know Him fully. (Sort of like trying to drain the ocean with a teaspoon.)
PB
I do not accept the assumption underlying your premise, nor does it address the questions I raised.
Do I accept the finished work of Jesus Christ at calvary, apart from any work I should try to add to it, trusting HIM alone for my salvation?
Fully, and without reservation.
Your assumption appears to be that my view of God's nature prevents me from having an orthodox view of Christianity, and therefore makes me ineligible for the Grace of God.
The onus is on you, and your position, seeing as it is the one which runs contrary to Orthodox christianity, to demonstrate, from scripture, that the rest of us, (not to mention William Carey, John Wesley, William Booth, Martin Luther, John Calvin, D.L. Moody, Henry Hudson, --the list could go on and on) are ALL HERITICS and incapable of worshipping the true God.
Of course, this would be dispensing with the Biblically sound doctrine that EVERY generation has a remnent to God.
You *still* have not answered any of my objections from previous posts.
PB
the scripture you quoted from memory, denotes the word *also*.
Please explain the significance of said word, in this context.
theophilus,
Great, you said what i was trying to say
So would this put 1 cor 13 : 9 in future dispensation? i would say yes...
Does this have some effect on the trinity and our finite minds to understand an infinite God? i would say yes...
Could this also explain that the Father/son relationship of God is an anaology used to help our finite minds understand an aspect of an infinite God?
Ok, I've been reading the thread, and it's just too tempting....
SO....
I have a couple of questions.
(Scriptures taken from the NRSV)
P.B. & Paul G.:
How do you explain the following verses?
Hebrews 1.5-13 (especially these selections)
"You are my Son; today I have begotten You...I will be his Father, and he will be my Son...But of the Son he says.....therefore God, your God, has anointed you...sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"
Acts 2.32,33
"This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear."
2John3
"Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, in truth and love."
Matthew 28.18,19
"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."
In this verse, who gave the authority to Jesus?
Also, John 8.12-59,
John 6.32-38 ("I am the Bread of Life" analogy, "His will" vs. "my will")
PB said:
"Is Jesus the chief cornerstone of their faith or has he been demoted to second place and become their stumbling block."
Are you deliberately misrepresenting my position??? You can't *possibly* be so thick as to not understand what we are saying.
[For allforlove, and anyone else who would like to see side-by-side of the beliefs of Trinitarian v. Modalism see this link:
http://www.coralridge.org/SPECIALDOCS/TRINITYADAPTATIONCALVINBEISNER.PDF
Again, from the top...
Christ crucified is the only way to be reconciled with a holy God. The Stumbling block reference is for those Jewish leaders who could not accept the divinity of Jesus, and also for the Greeks who could not believe divinity (spirit, good) could be present with mortality (matter, evil).
2 Peter 1:16-18 "For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitness of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: 'This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.' And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain." note: voice FROM heaven, whilst Jesus was present on Earth. (see also baptism of Jesus)
I find it sheds light on what sort of a person you are, when you demand my answers to your objections, without answering any of mine.
I have been fielding your objections.
Have you returned the courtesy?
Since the link isn't linking, let's try again.
http://www.truthsthattransform.org/
If anyone actually wants to see what Trinitarians ACTUALLY believe, in our OWN words, check out the following:
Modalism vs. Trinitarianism side-by-side-comparison.
click on the link "a case for the doctrine of the Trinity by Calvin Beisner"
theophilus, Great suggestion. The Beisner document, "A Case for the Doctrine of the Trinity in Opposition to Oneness (Modalist) Theology", is excellent.
theophilus
The moment it becomes name calling etc I don't bother answering. Without trying to tell everyone what I believe in 1 paragraph ask a question and I will answer it.
PhileoSophia
I have dealt with the verses you used even writing whole posts on some of them.
I try to be brief so I will only go through your first one with you.
Hebrews 1.5-13
Are the enemies literally a footstool under his feet?
Answer of course not it is figurative.
Therefore it follows that the whole sentence is figurative.
"sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"
Please read through your bible to find out what the figurative meaning of right hand is.
Obviously there is not 3 thrones in heaven for each person of a mystical trinity but ONE throne and the very last mention of this throne in the bible tells us that it is JESUS CHRIST the Lord of Lord and King of Kings who sits on the one and only throne of heaven.
I am not a modalist by the way. Modalism replaces the 3 persons of the trinity with 3 different modes. To me this is the trinity simply re-hashed.
P.B.
Thank you for your response. I still disagree, but I guess that's my prerogative.
I do not believe the foudation that you are laying your agument on is a sound one. I do not find the support in scripture for your point of view.
It is a simple thing to shape one verse to your own paradigm. Let us rather look at Scripture as a whole.
Greek Grammar has rules which help us understand what is being said, just as English does. Granville Sharp's First Rule http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2002-November/023444.html tells us that "and" means "and".
If you look at the beginning of just about every epistle, there is a greeting usually invoking blessing, grace, peace, mercy, etc., from God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't pretend to have great knowledge of Greek, but using Sharpe's Rule, the 'and' (KAI - Strongs 2532) connects two distinct, separate nouns.
But since you ask for a SINGLE VERSE to reply to -- I don't have time to research your entire site to determine your view on each mentioned scripture -- let's deal with this one:
2 John 3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=70&chapter=1&version=69
Since you're dabbling in 2 John already, here's a bonus question: Explain verse 9.
PileoSophia
Just because it says and Father doesn't mean it is talking about 2 different people.
Does God have a Father?
Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priest unto God and his Father:
Now God is a distinct person to Father???
I think that English is quite self explanatory. Right hand is most certainly figurative to power and authority.
Not only that Jesus even says that he is using figurative language concerning the Father.
"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father." John 16:25
Back to the topic of this post?
Which one? is the greatest Lord out of Jesus and His Father as they are both referred to as LORD.
When you Love ONE LORD according to the first commandment which Lord is this that you worship? Don't just answer "God" you should give the name of your Lord of Lords to separate yourself from other religions, gods and beliefs.
Hello PB,
If you are not modalistic, then
what is your doctrine of God?
PB
I have replied to some of your objections, however I am still awaiting an answer to mine.
In response to your complaint of name-calling, re-read my post. I credited your intelligence, but doubt your intellectual honesty. I, and the others, have bent over backward to accurately depict our postion, but you continue to mis-represent it. I can only surmise that must either be intentional, or because of a priori assumptions on your part about what we believe.
Truly, it is unlikely that you could *possibly* give *any less* an answer to my objections than you have to date, yet I will give you yet another opportunity to back up your position with a considered reply.
I can only hope you could -- in this instance -- appeal to reasoned rather than emotional arguments, *directly addressing* the points I raise and either proving or disproving them by your considered responses.
You state that you have responded to them in other places. Having looked briefly in other threads, I have yet to see anything that effectively addresses *any* of the points I have been making.
If I correctly understand your position, you believe Jesus=Father=Son=Spirit. Father/Son/Spirit thus have no Factual significance, but rather have some sort of metaphorical meaning.
(If this is not an accurate representation of your views, feel free to explain them.)
This leads to Many Paradoxes:
(Answer as few or as many as you are able, this is only a sampling...)
1) (I have already said--) in the verse you default to, you did not answer the signigicance of the word *also* (he that has me, has the Father also)
2) I Corinthians 3:23 "And ye are Christ's and Christ is God's" Why would Paul state that Jesus belongs to Himself, were he not making a valid point?
3) Your consistant dismissal of the significance of personal pronouns (I, You, He) as used by Jesus. (ie: and *I* will pray to the Father and *he* will send you *another* Helper.
If He does NOT mean the 2nd person singular, or 3rd person singular, why, in the divinely-inspired scripture does He choose those usages? How could they be honestly used if there is not 2nd or 3rd person singular? (or 1st plural, for that matter.)
4) Mediator role of Christ. Mediator (advocate) is a bridge between 2 parties. If Self is one of those 2 parties, self is Not a go-between.
5) the cry on the cross "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"
6) The Advocacy of Jesus in 1 John 2:1. (appealing to God on our behalf)
7) The Intercessor role of Christ: Hebrews 7:25. How is it He can 'ever live to make intercession to us' and also be the one to whom He is making intercession?
8) The division of divine responsibilites: (eg: The Father *confers* Judgement to the Son. the Spirit regenerates, etc.)
9) Not My will but Thine...???
9b) Submission of Christ to the Father (ie: Rom 5:19, to whom was Jesus obedient?)
This partial list should suffice for now. I will watch your response, or lack of, to know whether you are interested in honestly examining scripture, or not.
PB,
You said:
"Hebrews 1:5-13
Are the enemies literally a footstool under his feet?
Answer of course not it is figurative.
Therefore it follows that the whole sentence is figurative."
Your point that since one part of a verse uses figurative language means the whole verse or phrase is figurative is a poor one.
There are any phrases is comon usage which are only in part figurative.
"My nose is running." I literally mean 'me' in this phrase, but my nose is not running away but has snot dripping from it.
"I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" I am literally hungry, but could not possibly eat a whole horse.
there are any more...
If one part of a sentence is figurative it does not mean the whole phrase is figurative. Even less does it mean that a whole paragraph is figurative.
MDM
All trinitarians,
You think there are three persons in one god and each person is god. All three persons having a relationship with one another, so the first person who is god said to the second person who is god, you better go down to the earth and fix up all the trouble .
So the first god said to the second god, sit at my right hand till I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. And the second god can not do anything till the first god (the Father)tells him so.
You trinitarians say that Jesus is the second person in god, like always you demote Jesus to second place in you doctrines and in your preaching.
Jesus is is not your King of Kings and Lord of Lords, or the Alpha and Omega, you always strip Jesus of His supremacy, glory, honour and majesty.
As I have said before, you do not understand the Scripture, you are blind guides! Jesus said, " If the blind leads the blind both will fall in the pit."
Shame shame on you!!
Everyone who believes in Jesus;
If you are not sure whether God is three persons or not.
Important! do not believe those trinitarians their doctrines are full of deceptions and lies.
Always seek the Lord Jesus yourself for the truth, and remember Jesus Himself is the way the TRUTH and the life.
The Bible says, that you have no one to teach you for you know all things and the Holy Spirit will lead you into all the truth.
Any spirit that divides God into two or three persons is the spirit of Antichrist.
The spirit of Antichrist is very cunning and clever, with every trickery and deception he will say to you.
See! the Lord your God is not one, and surely Jesus is not God alone, in John 17 Jesus prayed to His Father who is oviously another person.
Here you can see how clever the Devil is in perverting the truth.
In John 17 we read that Jesus prayed to the Father!
If Jesus is the Lord God the Almighty then He does not need to pray.
So why did Jesus pray, and to whom did He pray??
this is a very important question, and there are many more like that.
The Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ the Almighty God who is Spirit became flesh and dwelt among us.
According to the flesh Jesus Christ is the last high priest who occupied the high priestly office of the old testament priesthood.
Jesus became the high priest in a new order (the order of Melchizedek) to His church forever.
Now the duty of every high priest is, that he had to pray for Gods people and to bring a blood sacrifice for his sins and the sins for the people.
Jesus the high priest bought His own blood, not for Himself but for His people(the believers), and that office also required Jesus to pray for His people.
In the old testament God swore by Himself because there was no greater one than Himself.
Jesus who is the Lord God the high priest according to the flesh prayed to Himself, or if you like to His Spirit (for God is Spirit).
Jesus Christ is God and the high priest in one person. If Jesus would have prayed to another person? then Jesus would not be the Lord God the Almighty.
Time and space does not allow me to go into all the details, especially Jesus and Melchizedek there are many Scripture passages which can only be understood in the order of Melchizedek.
In your own studies, ask the Lord Jesus to show you this things, and you will be blessed to see the Majesty and the Glory of the Lord Jesus in all Scripture.
Paul G and PB : what u r saying rings true and i understand it.
Pb, you mentioned "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father." John 16:25
ok, when will he speak plainly? Why is the rest of the new testament still in this 'figuritive language'? Has the time not yet come for jesus to speak plainly?. And if jc is speaking plainly now...then If paul and others were so bold as to proclaim salvation to all who believe through the death and res of jesus,...why arnt they spelling out this truth adn addressing him as Father as clear as you guys...like, they could begin their letters with ' Grace and peace through our God and Father Jesus Christ'? Do you understand what im asking?
so im not the most bestest debater hehe...still, it just makes sense that Jesus should be refered to as the revealed God the Father, If there is no further mystery...why not spell it out as clear as day?
Paul G :
There's a verse which says... so seeing they become blind and do not understand..something like this... but this verse is talking about salvation through faith and not through works. Of course paul was blinded by the rule keeping way of life before he met chrsit...
But are you saying that if you dont know Christ as the Father, you are bound by the rule keeping way of life? Are you saying that a trinitarian can not live a spacious free life in christ with his sins forgiven and slate wiped clean? i dont think you are saying this.
Is there any area in your/my own life that does not reflect christ? How does this effect our ability to see properly? How does this effect our reflection of christ...i'd say it distorts him a little...
So say we get this understanding of Jesus the Father down pact...yet we continue in sin in another area...are we any better in understanding Jesus as our friend who is still struggling with the trinity concept is? ( i have no one in mind...its all an example )
Say we worship Father Jesus in his total place of honor, yet we hate our brother...Do we even know jesus at all?
I think these people are more blind then the 'trinitarians' are...( just an example )
Im not talking about keepin rules...like we have to love... no one has to do anything, though if you are in christ, you will want to do these things and there is grace to empower...
Oh! I get it, Paul...
John 17:1 These things Jesus spoke; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Me, the hour has come; glorify My Son, that the Son may glorify Me,
2 even as I gavest Me authority over all mankind, that to all whom I hast given Me, I may give eternal life.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Me, the only true God, and Me whom I have sent.
4 "I glorified Me on the earth, having accomplished the work which I have given Me to do.
5 "And now, glorify I Me together with Myself, Me, with the glory which I had with Me before the world was.
6 "I manifested My name to the men whom I gavest Me out of the world; Mine they were, and I gavest them to Me, and they have kept My word.
7 "Now they have come to know that everything I have given Me is from Me;
8 for the words which I gavest Me I have given to them; and they received them, and truly understood that I came forth from Me, and they believed that I didst send Me.
9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom I have given Me; for they are Mine;
10 and all things that are Mine are Mine, and Mine are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
11 "And I am no more in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to Me. Holy Me, keep them in My name, the name which Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, even as I are.
12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in My name which I have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 "But now I come to Me; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14 "I have given them My word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 "I do not ask Me to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 "Sanctify them in the truth; My word is truth.
18 "As I didst send Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as I, Me, art in Me, and I in Me, that they also may be in Me; that the world may believe that I didst send Me.
22 "And the glory which I hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as I are one;
23 I in them, and I in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that I didst send Me, and didst love them, even as I didst love Me.
24 "Me, I desire that they also, whom I have given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which I hast given Me; for I didst love Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Me, although the world has not known Me, yet I have known Me; and these have known that I didst send Me;
26 and I have made My name known to them, and will make it known; that the love wherewith I didst love Me may be in them, and I in them."
Let's recap:
We have 2 people who seem confidant that God has conferred His divine perogative of Judging the souls of men onto themselves. (Matthew 5:22, or Romans 14:4 ring any bells?)
They have presented sweeping statements, emotion-driven diatribes, opinion, conjecture, and a profound inablility to address the objections raised.
They espouse, against both the divinely inspired Autograph and Reason, that EVERY instance of Scripture where Jesus makes a statement, it really doesn't mean what He has said, it REALLY means this secret truth that 2000 years of Orthodox Christianity haven't been able to puzzle out. Many of whom are dying for an *erroneous* faith, even today.
"AND" does NOT mean "AND"...?!?
Personal PRONOUNS do NOT mean what they are recorded as saying. They have a *deeper* and *hidden* meaning.
Sounds a little like the Jehovah's witnesses approach, doesn't it? "The Bible REALLY DOESN'T mean what it says..."
The Bible most certainly DOES mean what it says.
John 5:22,23 The Father judges no one but has given all judgement to the Son so that all may honor the Son *just as* they honor the Father really means that Jesus will confer to Jesus (how this transaction would take place, I won't even begin to speculate) the authority of judgement.
In denying the trinity, do you not deny that Jesus is Factually the Son of God? (1 John 4:15?)
Your accuse carelessly, of the spirit of antichrist, while misinterpreting the passage you allude to. Hardly surpising for someone who has neither mastered "and" nor "pronouns".
The more you abuse the Word of God, the more you abuse Him who shares His Name with said Word.
Paul ==> You accuse others of living by works, having a sort of counterfeit salvation, and all manner of other things. In your description of Jesus engaging in ritual prayer without substance, you, in fact, reject that Jesus lived fully Human, and is therefore disqualified from being the Last Adam. If Jesus could not submit, as we do, He could not be weak as we are. You negate Gethsemane. You call Jesus a hypocrite of a far higher order than any charge He ever laid against the Pharisees and Saducees. To mouth words is NOT the role of High Priest. It is to present the sacrifice which reconciles. You accuse Jesus of Vain repetition. Strong words indeed.
You have asked me what God I serve.
I serve the Triune God Jesus declares in John 20:17.
Jeuss said to her, "Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Note this is on the same page in which Jesus accepts the worship of Thomas: "My Lord and my God."
But theophilus,
I am sure you expect to be rebutted with the explination that "since it is only figurative language when Jesus refers to His Father in John 20:17 it means that the rest of the page is figurative also. Thus when Jesus accepts the worship of Thomas: "My Lord and my God." this is also figurative in some way."
*groan*
Your summary is a fair assessent of how the discussion has gone thus far.
MDM
Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is the Almighty GOd, the Saviour, the Creator, the Great I Am etc.
I agree totally with this post up until and including the phrase "Those that are saved believe that Jesus is Lord." after which you take a serious left turn from the Truth.
MDM
P.B.: (This will be a lengthy post, and for that I apologize.)
You said,
"Just because it says and Father doesn't mean it is talking about 2 different people."
Actually, that is EXACTLY what I am saying. I say that because that is EXACTLY what the Greek says.
See for yourself. (I've done the work for you.) Here is the Greek and English side by side. Using Sharpe's rule,(see my previous post) prove me wrong.
εσται[will be] μεθ[with] ημων[you] χαρις[grace] ελεος[mercy] ειρηνη[peace] παρα[from] θεου[God] πατρος[(the)Father] και[and] παρα[from] κυριου[(the)Lord] ιησου[Jesus] χριστου[Christ] του[the] υιου[Son] του[of the] πατρος[Father] εν[in] αληθεια[truth] και[and] αγαπη[love] (Taken from 1550 Stephanus New Testament)
As for Revelation 1.6, Sharpe's Rule is not applicable. Let me show you:
και[and] εποιησεν[made] ημας[us] βασιλεις[Kings] και[and] ιερεις[Priests] τω[to the] θεω[God] και[and] πατρι[Father] αυτου[of Him] αυτω[To Him is] η[the] δοξα[glory] και[and] το[the] κρατος[might] εις[to] τους[the] αιωνας[ages] των[of the] αιωνων[ages] αμην[amen]
The "God and Father" reference does not apply. The noun "τω θεω"[the God] has the derivative of the article "ο", however, the "πατρι"[Father] before the joining "και" does NOT have a derivative of the article "ο". Since there is no article after the "και", the "πατρι" refers to the "τω θεω". This is a further description of the same noun.
Thank you for choosing this particular verse, because it undermines your position:
(For the record, I'm a big fan of context. Seeing that the Bible was not written Chapter and verse, but rather as complete documents ie, letters, gospels, historical accounts, etc., they must be viewed as WHOLE documents.)
You said that the English is self-explanatory, but you are inserting your paradigm and trying to tailor the text to fit it.
I will show you why a basic understanding of Greek is necessary to comprehend the intended meaning, and correct any pre-conceived errors that alter our perception of God or Scripture.
The "τω θεω και πατρι αυτου" literally translated means, "to the God and Father of Him". Of whom? Of Jesus (see Rev. 1.5). A passing understanding of Koine Grammer makes this blatantly obvious.
Perhaps you should consider taking a course in Greek.
I almost forgot!
Since Paul G. has childishly resorted to calling Trinitarians names, I will not direct any further posts to him. (I am also waiting to see whether or not P.B. has anything to say about that behaviour.) It is one thing to have a civilized discourse on theology, and quite another to scream "anti-Christ"! From what I have seen, those who are of the "Trinitarian" persuasion have attempted repeatedly to use Scriptural evidence and Reason to illustrate their point of view. As Theophilus said, the "Jesus-Only" people (I don't know what to call you since you reject the historical and common names for your sect) have taken Scripture out of context, refused to address SPECIFIC objections and, yes, even dispensed with basic grammar. You have refused to acknowledge the Greek. (I can only assume this is because you don't know any.) And oh, yeah, you've condemned us to hell. (How well this illustrates John 13.35!)
P.B. said:
"When you Love ONE LORD according to the first commandment which Lord is this that you worship? Don't just answer "God" you should give the name of your Lord of Lords to separate yourself from other religions, gods and beliefs."
Which name do I give the Lord that I serve? I call Him by the many names that He has used to reference Himself and reveal His character. To me, the most fitting name is the one by which He revealed Himself to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM". It is the only name large enough to encompass His entirety of Being. Some only reference His love, but reject His wrath. Others call on His justice, but not His mercy. To me, He is All in All, the Thrice-Holy, Triune God, unmade, infallible, revealed in Scripture. I could go on, but I suppose the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
MDM:
Thanks for saving me the trouble of explaining a metaphor within the context of one sentance. However, I think your point may be lost on them if they cannot understand "AND"...!?!
Takin:
The John 17 rewrite:
All I have to say is, Proverbs 26.4,5.
Good goin'!
Theophilus:
Ditto.
MDM, TAKIN:
LOL!
PhileoSophia:
So, uh, do Greek Pronouns matter?
kai = and, right?
Great posts, all.
To the others? So far, your silence has been more instructive than your words.
Theophilus we should not be quick to take too much meaning from silence or a long break between comments. Here in Australia, where PB and Paul G are both from, it is already the weekend and they are probably just busy atm.
I would much rather wait a bit longer for a well thought out comment rather than getting a reflexive one 'shot from the hip' so to speak. :)
I do look forward to their comments in reply to the new points raised and / or re-raised though.
MDM
This is what i believe :
Jesus is the word of the Almighty God. The Almighty God created the world with his word, through his voice.
i can close my eyes and recognize my friends by the sound of their voice.
Theophilus wrote in AD 160:
For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice but what else is this voice but the word of God, who is also his Son.
Genesis 15:1
[ God's Covenant With Abram ] After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward. "
who is saying this? The word of the LORD... Jesus
Luke 8:11
"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.
who is this seed? It is Jesus
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
His name is the word of God...who is he? Jesus
Matthew 4:4
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
What do we live on? Jesus...the bread of life.
Can i ask, what do you guys think this verse means...
1) why does paul describe the holy spirit as Jesus' spirit? ( Acts 16:7)and why do they baptise in his name only, when clearly the command was in the name of the father and son and holy spirit..
2)Acts 10:38
'how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power...'
Is there two holy spirits? One Jesus' and one the Fathers? But if there is one holy spirit did God annoint jesus with jesus' own spirit?
3) The Father and the son? Could also mean Father and his word?
All trinitarians,
With your reasoning you also should include PB's verse Rev.1:6 'and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father:
There you can also put another person to your collection of persons or gods if you like.
Then you would be called Quadrotarians! similar to catholics who believe in three persons plus the Mother of God, which will add up to four.
If three could be one, perhaps four could also be one.
Blind Freddy can see that you should not worship any other person than the Lord Jesus Christ your God and serve Him only. Exactly as Jesus said, to worship the Father in spirit and in truth.
Because you think and say that somebody else is the Father, and you worship that somebody else whoever that might be? you worship another god!
or perhaps in Greek it's different?
Jesus said you can NOT serve two masters nor can you worship two persons in spirit and in truth.
Why is it so difficult for you trinitarians to believe in the oneness of God in Christ Jesus our Lord?
Perhaps the Devil has blinded your eyes so that you can not and will not see the glory of the Lord Jesus in all those Scriptural passages.
allvorlove,
I really like your reasoning!
this is the spirit of power, love and a sound mind.
Most of the questions are based on language.
Let me rephrase your questions into one.
"Why use the language Father, Son, Holy Spirit? doesn't this mean 3 different people in the scripture?"
Answer:
The greatest moment in history was when the one true God of heaven became a man. He humbled himself even to the point of death. Jesus prayed as a man, learnt as a man and was tempted though He is the Lord of Glory.
He called God his Father and used this language as a man though He is this God in the flesh.
Now this language is used so that the wise and learned don't know Him.
"No one knows who the Son is except the Father and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and all those to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
To this day the Father is not known universally or by catholics (catholic means universal).
The Father is not known by cleverly formulated doctrine nor accepting as truth something you don't understand.
The Father is known by His children. The Father is known by all those who cried out on His name for Salvation.
Every Child of God cried out JESUS.
Jesus says to you:
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him
When Jesus made the above known to you by His Spirit in you then you know what it is to
Belieive in Jesus for you are believing in the Father. Lift up Jesus for you are lifting up the Father. Worship Jesus and you are worshipping your Father.
I thought it might be better to continue discussion on the next post.
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