Puritan Belief

The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone.

Let 'US' make man in 'OUR' image! Genesis 1:26.


Then God said, “Let 'US' make man in 'OUR' image, in 'OUR' likeness, …..”(Gen.1:26).
This is the most misunderstood passage among all those who believe in the TRINITY and in fact most so called Christian Churches and doctrines.
The word 'US' and 'OUR' is plural and it means MORE than ONE.

Trinitarians (polytheists) use that passage of Scriptures to justify their position that God is two or three persons.
The Scriptures teaches that the Lord God the creator of heaven and earth is Jesus Christ and He created the first man 'ADAM' in His 'OWN' image perfect and without sin He created ADAM, male and female He created THEM (Adam and Eve) (Gen.1:27).



The first perfect man was created (MADE) by God (Jesus Christ) in His own image and therefore Adam is called the son of God (Luke 3:38).
The first imperfect man, the sinful man was MADE by the devil who was in the body of the beast (Gen.3:1) and seduced Eve to bear his first son Cain (Gen.3:15).
For that reason the Lord Jesus said in Genesis 1:26, “let 'US' make man in 'OUR' image”, referring to His son Adam (Luke 3:38) and to the Serpents son Cain (Gen.3:15).

So then the word 'US' refers to 'GOD' and the 'SERPENT' and the word 'OUR' is the image or likeness of both, Jesus Christ and the beast (serpent) and thus Gods perfect creation (MAN) was fallen and polluted by sin.
Cain was half human (Eve, mother) and half beast (serpent, father) and for that reason Eve became the mother of all living (Gen. 3:20).
In the family tree of the knowledge of good and the evil are two lines, the line of Adam (good) and the line of the serpent (evil) and both, Adam and Eve had the full knowledge of good and evil (Gen.2:17).
The satanic (beast) offspring are written in Genesis 4:17 to 23.
The Godly offspring are written in Genesis 5:1 to 32 etc.

Did you understand that?
Do you have another view?
Would you like to add or correct?
Do you agree or disagree?
Please let me hear your thoughts.

Add Your Comment(120)

Let 'US' make man in 'OUR' image! Genesis 1:26.
Posted by Paul G Wednesday, May 08, 2013

120 Comments:

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May 08, 2013 7:24 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Whoa, one would think that the Lord God Almighty (being all-knowing) would have seen that coming and stopped it before it got started. That is, unless it is true that there is only so much that He can do, of course.

May 08, 2013 11:21 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Thanks Jerry for your comment.
The Lord God the Almighty is the Lord Jesus Christ and there is no other and He is the creator of all things.
He does not see things coming, rather He makes all things according to His own good pleasure.

You are looking from man's perspective and not from God's perspective. You think that God wants to prevent events, instead He creates events.

For the Lord God to be a Mighty savior, He had to cause His perfect creation to fall or to become imperfect.
Please tell me, how do you think He did that??
Also, God said, let 'US' make man', who do you think is the 'US' if God is ONE??

May 09, 2013 9:46 AM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Eisegesis (from Greek εἰς "into" as opposed to exegesis from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that it introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases into and onto the text. The act is often used to "prove" a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation bias in accordance with his or her pre-held agenda. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis draws out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discover-able meaning of its author, eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective.
An individual who practices eisegesis is known as an eisegete, as someone who practices exegesis is known as an exegete. The term "eisegete" is often used in a mildly derogatory fashion.
Although the term exegesis is commonly heard in association with Biblical interpretations, the term is broadly used across literary disciplines.

You are a total eisegete and I mean that in the most derogatory way. Your serpent seed views are very disturbing, might I ask which race do you believe is of the seed of the serpent? And do you have any DNA evidence to prove your racist doctrine?

May 09, 2013 1:30 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

So, my dear Paul, why did He want to be a mighty Savior?

May 09, 2013 2:11 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

You know what I believe on this issue Paul, what I have written in my post http://lighthousevision.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/let-us-make-man-in-our-image_22.html

May 09, 2013 7:03 PM   Edit
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May 10, 2013 2:31 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Thank you Anonymous for the lesson on eisegesis and exegesis. I appreciate that you have explained it so that I might expand the borders of my understanding.

Yes I and everyone of us have introduced our own presuppositions and bias into the text, including you. Therefore it is good for you to bring your presupposition, whether eisegesis or exegesis to the light, so that the light exposes the error and the truth remains and is clearly seen and understood by all.

If you would have understood that passage of the Scriptures, you wouldn't have asked me that question, "which race do you believe is the seed of the serpent? And do you have any DNA evidence to prove your racist doctrine?"

Who said anything about race?

Obviously you must have a serious race attitude. But since you mention race and DNA, I will ask you a question, if Adam and Eve is one race, how is it possible for one race to produce two or more different races?

Also I'm glad that Biblical truth is very disturbing to you and please read the rest of the Bible and if that is not disturbing to you, then what is? Everyone who does not love the truth, the Lord will give them over to believe the lie.
Kind regards

May 10, 2013 4:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Jerry E Beuterbaugh,
Why not? :-)




This is the very reason the Lord Jesus Christ created the earth and everything in it to show off His Majestic greatness and to prove Himself to be an omnipotent savior who will lose not one of His children but save them ALL to the utmost, 100% success.

Yes brother that's my JESUS!!!

May 10, 2013 4:12 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Brenda, that was a long post, I remember that I read that post a few months ago and there are many problems associated with that interpretation.

You think that the word 'US' refers to mankind, male and female.

'Let 'US' make man in 'OUR' likeness', refers to two male, since a female cannot MAKE, she does not have the seed, and the 'likeness' is in the two different makers likeness God and the serpents likeness.
God is male, a creator a maker, the Father of Adam, so the other male had to make his son in his likeness, two likeness.
After Adams son Able was murdered, Adam wanted a son in his likeness, Seth (Gen. 5:3).

And there is another problem, you think that 'OUR image' refers to God and Jesus.

Well Brenda, how many Gods are there?
You see, the word 'God' is a title and Jesus is His Name.

Yes I know that it is hard to understand and believe that the God of the Bible is Jesus Christ ALONE and beside Him is no other, but you have to deal with that misconception that God is two or three identities or it will pollute all your major doctrines of the Scriptures.
Throughout all Scriptures the word 'God' is always Jesus Christ our Lord and God and never ever another identity.
Brenda, I'm here for you at any time.
Kind regards Paul

May 10, 2013 4:18 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

May 10, 2013 6:36 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Sorry Paul, I called you 'Jerry' in the deleted comment.
Right Paul,
I think you have read my post wrongly.
I don't believe that the US in verse 26 refers to male and female. I believe the 'man' in verse 27 refers to 'mankind', male and female. It is a plural word. I believe the US could be God and Jesus because Jesus was taken up to Heaven to sit at the right hand of God, according to scripture, and these words were obviously spoken by God, and were spoken on the sixth day. We are classed as the body of Christ and are seated in Heavenly places in Him, this speaks volumes. Don't forget, the veil has been taken away.

May 10, 2013 8:19 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

So, my dear Paul, are you leaning toward the hardcore Calvinist way of thinking that He created some to be saved and others not?

By the way, "Puritan Belief" has been included in the Sites To See for this week. Be assured that I hope this helps to point many new visitors in your direction.

http://asthecrackerheadcrumbles.blogspot.com/2013/05/sites-to-see_9653.html

May 11, 2013 1:34 AM   Edit
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May 11, 2013 5:00 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes Brenda I had misquoted.

Also God and Jesus are not two, God is one and this God is Jesus Christ our Lord, therefore the 'US' cannot relate to that, God is ONE and is singular, but 'US' is plural.

When I say 'God' or quote the word 'God', I always mean the Lord Jesus Christ because there is NO OTHER God but He (Jesus Christ).

In the beginning there was only God and He made the serpent (Gen. 1:25) in the image of the beast and not in the image of God, the serpent was different to all other beasts of the field (Gen. 3:1) and he was a male.
Before man was created God said, "let 'US' make man in 'OUR' image in 'OUR' likeness", referring to Himself and the beast the serpent (Gen. 1:26).
Afterwards God created the first man Adam in His own image , male and female He created them (Gen. 1:27).
Then the serpent who is in the image of the beast seduced Eve (Gen.3;1) to bear his son Cain through Eve who was in Gods image (Gen. 3:14+15) and thus sin has entered into man and Gods perfect creation of man in Gods likeness was polluted by the likeness of the beast.
From here, all the troubles have started, because the DNA from the beast was mingled with the DNA of man, all the devils and demons, sickness and disease and every wickedness now had access into mankind.
Because God said 'US and 'OUR' in the beginning of the creation therefore it cannot relate to a feature time or event.

May 11, 2013 5:56 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes Jerry you can say that.

I can see the two lines, the line of Gods children the elect from Adam (Gen. 5:1-32) and the line of the serpents (devils) children from Cain (Gen. 4:17-23).

Remember that the Lord Jesus laid down His life for the sheep and not for the goats (John 10:11+15).
He came to save His children from their sins (Mat.1:21) and not the children of the devil.

Jerry, this is a trustworthy statement; Any doctrine without election is most likely not true.
In this post you can see election from the beginning of creation. The Calvinists could never see that, otherwise they would never have a 'U' (Unconditional election) in their doctrine.
I see election to be 'conditional' on the basis that they were in Christ before the foundation of the world, unlike the Arminians, but just as I have explained in this post.

May 11, 2013 6:02 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Does this not depict our Heavenly Father as being quite cold-hearted—if not downright cruel, my dear Paul? Granted, you are contending (I think) that those who will not be saved came from the bloodlines created by the devil, but as you have testified to earlier in this thread, our Creator is all-powerful. Therefore, He could have put a stop to that before it got started, and none of those other people had a choice of whether or not they wanted to be physically born as they were.

May 11, 2013 11:15 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

May 12, 2013 12:44 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Who do you say is the God that Jesus went to be seated at the right hand of Paul? Also, one day is as a thousand years with God and God spoke the words 'Let us make man in our image' on the sixth day. The man that God formed from the dust of the earth in Genesis ch.2 was formed before the sixth day,even before there were plants and shrubs on the earth, and it does not say he was made in God's image here and it says he was a 'living being' when God breathed into his nostrils. We are told that Christ is a 'life giving Spirit' and when we are born again into Him then we begin to be changed into the same image. John ch.1 v.12 says 'But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Also I can not see anywhere in Genesis ch 3 v.1 or in the following verses where it says the serpent seduced Eve to bear his son, Cain. What the serpent actually did was to persuade Eve, who also persuaded Adam, to do what God had told them not to do. It was the test that brought about sin-infected mankind, which were subsequently denied to eat from the tree of life. As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. All are born into sin and must be born again of God's Holy Spirit. God is One whichever way we look at it because God is Spirit, and there is no way after all this time that we would even know what God's ways are without being taught them through the scriptures by the enlightening of the Holy Spirit.

May 12, 2013 12:55 AM   Edit
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May 12, 2013 11:54 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes Jerry, that's quite right!

Remember what the Lord Jesus said about Jacob and Esau, 'I have loved Jacob and hated Esau, while still in the womb before they have done good or evil (Rom.9:10-13) in order that Gods purpose in election might stand'.
Also in the womb of Rebecca were two nations, one was Jacob the elect who was plain, the other was Esau the reject who's body was hairy (Gen.25:22-27). Doesn't that sound like my post? :-)

Jerry, Personally I call this doctrine, the light- switch of the Bible.
Once the Lord Jesus has granted you or anyone to see it, it will light up the Scriptures in a wonderful new way and opens up all the doctrines which were difficult to understand.

May 12, 2013 11:19 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Brenda, the Lord Jesus Christ is not seated at the right hand of another God. The Lord Jesus is the ONLY God and beside Him is no other (Jude 1:25)!
This is very important to believe. To transgress this most important commandment of the Lord Jesus has serious consequences.

Jesus sitting at the right hand of God is metaphorical language describing the son of man Jesus Christ equal to, and is God in position and and power.

Remember the Jews who said to Jesus Christ, 'We are stoning you, because you, a mere man, claiming to be God' (John 10:33).

Jesus Christ is the only God of the Bible, all the old Testament saints testified that their God would come into this world in the flesh, and when He came they received Him not but demoted Him to a son and to the third person of their many gods. Therefore the curse of God still remains on them to this very day. Just look around you and see, the Hospitals are full, the suffering is great, the calamities are terrible, the wars, famine, earthquakes and there is much more.
Please Brenda, tell me, in which God do they believe??
Dare to ask those on the sickbed, perhaps then you would believe that my testimony is true and I do not lie.
Also, I believe in a six 24 hour day creation and not in a six thousand year creation.
And there was evening and there was morning – the first day.
And there was evening and there was morning – the second day.
And there was evening and there was morning – the third day. Etc.
A thousand years has more then one evening and one morning, only a 24 hour day can have one evening and one morning.

Now, on the sixth literal 24 hour day God created Adam and Eve in His likeness (Gen.1:27).
Vegetation, plants and trees were created on the third day (Gen.1:11).
Genesis chapter 2 is a basic recount of the creation from a different perspective with lots of metaphors and the explanation of the fall of man and how sin entered the world etc. Metaphors are there so that those who are not spiritual cannot understand, but to us who are born again the Lord has opened our eyes so that we can see and stand in awe of His Majestic ways.

As to the fall of man, I do not see that to be a persuasion or a disobedience, unless it is seduction.
To me the Scripture is clear, God said to both , to Eve and the serpent, 'because you have DONE THIS! Your children (the beast) shall be at war and constant opposition with the children of Eve (man), and as a punishment for her fornication and adultery she shall bear her children in pain (Gen.3:16).
As a woman you know exactly what I mean.

May 12, 2013 11:31 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Paul,
I think we could say every scripture that we want to be could be a metaphor, but there are too many scriptures that don't tie in then. Such as 2 Corinthians ch.15 vs.20 - 28:- 'But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. I admit that there are many things in the Bible that I do not yet understand, but all that I believe the Lord has shown me adds up so far. There are things that I know I would enjoy discussing with you regarding God and His Word, but it would take far too much time to put it all into writing. In Genesis ch. 3 God did not say to the serpent AND Eve, 'Because you have done this'. It is written 'So the Lord God said to the serpent 'Because you have done this', ('done this' referring to the woman saying 'The serpent deceived me, and I ate'). I also believe that, if one day is as a thousand years with God then it can speak both in the natural 24 hour day, and also in the spiritual where the 24 hour system would not apply and evening and morning would be in spiritual time. I don't want this to get into an argumentative debate Paul, I believe that each person must hear individually from the Lord and be taught by Him as they are led, and I feel I must always search the scriptures to see if what is said is true.

May 13, 2013 1:18 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Are you contending, my dear Paul, that the supposed Satanic bloodline survived the Flood?

May 13, 2013 8:31 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

I have to say Paul, that what Jerry has just asked you is exactly what I was pondering on this morning while thinking about our conversation.

May 13, 2013 5:56 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Exegesis here!!!!!

Your still an "Eisegete" despite your Sophistry.

So are you saying that all flesh has been mixed with the Serpent seed or do you believe the chosen "Elect" are only those of pure blood?

Or do your believe like most other Serpent seed heretics that it's the Kenite Jews who are the seed of Satan?

May be you think that Jesus died to pay for the seed of Satan to be saved?

Which twisted heresy is it that you believe?

Maybe you have done a blog about it I could read?

May 14, 2013 1:18 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Wow Brenda, I really love all those passages you have quoted, but it would take long comments to bring out the full meaning so that we will profit from them and have a deeper assurance of our salvation in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Perhaps a later time.

To be able to understand Genesis chapter 3 and (v.13-15) we first must know that the Lord Jesus Christ is not concerned about eating and drinking and about trees, gardens and swords etc.
All those illustrations are metaphors and the true meaning is hidden behind the metaphor and is to be revealed to the children of God.
I'm sure you would accept that the 'TREE' of life is NOT a tree, and that it has absolutely nothing to do with a tree, whether we call it a metaphor or not make no difference. Every believer accepts that the tree of life is the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore we can conclude that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is also NOT a tree, and neither is the FRUIT an apple or a fruit, and EAT doesn't not mean eat.

(Gen.3:13) The Lord punished Eve for what she has DONE and not for what she has said. Likewise the Lord punished the serpent for what he has DONE (v.15).
The result to what they have done is that their children will be different and hate one another. Perhaps look at Cain, murdering his brother or half brother Abel, and rightly did Jesus say that Cain belonged belong to the evil one (1 John 3:12) which is his father the devil.
(v.15) God said, And I will put enmity between the serpent and Eve, and between between the serpents children and Eves children. This is where sin entered the world and whole creation is groaning and waiting till the sons of God are revealed.

May 14, 2013 7:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Jerry, In time before the flood the two bloodlines were strongly mingled or mixed, just like two nations living next to one another would eventually intermarry. (Gen. 6:2) "The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose."
Through their intermarriages, the bloodline of good and evil became increasingly bad to the point that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil all the time (Gen.6:5), till the Lord Jesus destroyed them all in the flood, except Noah and his three sons and wives, 8 in total.

Because in Adam ALL have sinned and have died and were polluted, that includes Noah and all in the ark. Yes I know that the Scriptures say that Noah was a righteous man, and blameless etc. (Gen.6:9), but that righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus Christ which comes by faith in Jesus Christ which was accredited to Noah just the same as it has been accredited to us who are in Christ. I do not mean GIVEN, but accredited or declared, if it had been given, then that righteousness would be IN Noah and IN us, but no! That righteousness is IN Jesus Christ and will always remain in Him so that Noah and we who are born again can never lose it.
It is Jesus alone who is righteous and all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God including Noah and us.
The bloodlines from Adam is the family tree of the knowledge of good and evil and was known to Adam to nearly the time of the flood, (Gen. 4:17) the evil line, (Gen, 5:1-32) the good line.
Because of the increase in numbers of men and sin and the flood, the bloodlines were lost and only the Lord Jesus has now that knowledge.
Remember the Scripture says that we (including Noah) were in Christ before the foundation of the world, so then we were NOT in the serpent the devil, but we were and are the children of God. In other words God was always our Father, and the father of the reprobates was from the beginning of creation the devil (please read John 8:42-47 and take note of v.31).
Only one strain of the bloodline was recorded, that is of Jesus Christ right back to Adam in Luke 3:32-38 and even that line was polluted in the genetic structures by the beast (serpent, the devil).

May 14, 2013 7:18 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Thanks Anonymous for your comment.

You sound pretty ignorant, and ignorance is not a Godly characteristic.
If you would have asked me an intelligent question, perhaps I would have given you an intelligent answer.

May 14, 2013 7:20 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Paul,
there are many things that I agree with you about in the comments that you have made to both Jerry and myself, but there are also things that I see from a different perspective, or maybe different things that I see there to what you see. I see no account of the fall or of Cain written in ch.5 of Genesis and know that there is a reason for this. This is where spiritual guidance starts for the born again children of God. I know there is a difference between Lucifer and Satan, Lucifer means 'light bearer', Satan means 'adversary', yet many people class them as the same. I also believe that there is a message for we who are born again to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers, not meaning at all that we should not mix with them, and Genesis ch. 6 v.2 is a reminder of this to me. There is a difference between being with and being yoked. Whatever anybody says, I have to follow what the Lord tells me, and not BELONG to any denomination. He instructed me a long time ago to follow Him wherever He goes and not to be defiled by 'women'. I know what He means by this. Just as Isaiah ch.4 states that In that day seven women will take hold of one man saying 'We will eat our own bread and wear our own apparel,only let us be called by thy name to take away our reproach.', I believe the seven churches of Revelation reflect the state of God's church today where there is a danger of Christians eating their own food (not the word of God, but man's doctrine), wearing their own apparel (not putting on the robe of righteousness) but wanting to be called by His name (Christians, believers in Jesus Christ). I believe I am being taught by the Holy Spirit, and am still learning. I know that I would not want to be in this world without Him and that there is purpose in everything He is doing in my life. _

May 14, 2013 10:59 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Maybe you really are a Gnostic, my dear Paul, and just do not realize it? For one of their main tenants is that evil is in the flesh while the spirit is pure. For you have already testified in another thread that the Jesus, who was first born of a woman and later died to pay the price in full for our sins, was just a man created for that purpose, and here you are now contending that even his flesh was corrupted by the supposed Satanic bloodline! So, how was it possible for that Jesus to fulfill the requirements of the Law? For it required the sacrifice of someone completely without sin, but that Jesus had Satanic blood running through his veins—albeit greatly diluted over the ages!

May 15, 2013 2:04 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Brenda, those are great topics to talk about. I have read them somewhere in your blog archive without leaving any comments.

Also, I'm glad to hear that you are taught of the Holy Spirit. To many men and women are taught in their churches only by their pastors, teachers, clergies etc.
But I expect that every believer must be taught of God just like you (Isa.54:13+ John 5:45), I too have the same claim.

May 15, 2013 7:35 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Well Jerry, I have been called every name under the sun and as I would expect. But all that matters little to me for the sake of proclaiming the Kingdom of God and my wonderful Lord and savior Jesus Christ who is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the Last, the beginning and the end who said before Abraham was I AM!

Also Jerry, I would never say such things you have said, and not even the slightest hint of that.
I oppose such suggestions and that line of thinking. No one who is born of God would ever think or say such things.
Jerry, how can you suggest those things??
Did you really read my post and my comments?

May 15, 2013 7:38 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Paul, one of my poems is coming into my mind and I feel very strongly to share it with you and with all to whom it might encourage, together with a scripture. I suppose it sums up my thoughts on this discussion.
It is called 'Trust'
Do not worry, do not fear
let your heart be still
for who on Earth of mortal man
can always know God's will
But this we know who worship Him
by faith shall live the just
for then we see the power of
the One in whom we trust
'You will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed upon You, because he trusts in You. Trust in the Lord forever for the Lord God is an everlasting rock'. Isaiah ch. 26 vs.3,4. That 'rock' is the rock that the church was built upon, Jesus, not the apostle Peter.

May 15, 2013 8:26 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Okay, my dear Paul, maybe I grossly misunderstood you before. So, would you please explain how you are not contending that there are actually two Jesus Christs, with one being the Lord God Almighty and the other just a man, who was created to be our sacrifice for sins, in your answer to a previous question left in the comments section of your http://puritanbelief.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-trinity-is-hallmark-of-apostasy.html?

My question was: So, my dear Paul, when Christ Jesus sacrificed Himself to pay the price in full for all of our sins, it was a sacrifice of the flesh that He had taken upon Himself? Subsequently, when He was resurrected, it was the physical body that He had taken upon Himself that was raised from the dead? Furthermore, when it is mentioned in Scripture that Christ Jesus sits on the right side of the Lord God Almighty's throne in Heaven, it is actually referring to the man Christ Jesus took the form of when He walked among us in the flesh, and it will be that man who will subject himself to God after everything in this world is accomplished?

Your answer was: Yes brother, that's basically OK.
You said, "it was a sacrifice of the flesh that He had taken upon Himself?"
I'm not sure what you mean by that?
I see that the Lord Jesus has sacrificed (given, or laid down) His 'LIFE' in order that we might have life, it is an exchange.
And the punishment which was due to us fell upon the Lord (His body) and by His stripes we are healed.
The separation is the Spirit from the flesh called death, and the punishment is in the body (flesh), even nailed to the cross.
A spirit cannot be punished, only a body (flesh) can receive punishment. We are created in God's image, which is spirit (John 4:24), soul (Isa. 1:14) and body (Jesus) in the likeness of our Lord Jesus, and for that reason God was born into His own creation, a thing to be grasp.
The rest of your comment is OK, as long as you eliminate in your heart, and your thinking and in your testimony the possibility that there could be ' ANOTHER' identity also God.
Is the Lord Jesus seated at the right hand of another ?
Is the Lord Jesus praying to another?
On the cross, was the Lord Jesus speaking to another? Etc. etc.
Trinitarians teach that there is 'ANOTHER'!
I understand every flavour of this satanic doctrine the trinity and the Lord Jesus has commissioned me to expose this doctrine and to strike it at the roots. For many years I have been posting against this doctrine in one way or another.
Jerry, as for you, the Bible says that the anointing you have received will teach you, and you do not need anyone to teach you (1 John 2:27), the Holy Spirit which abides in you will teach you all things and lead you into all the truth, and He also will tell you that my testimony is true and I do not lie.
Kind regards
Paul

May 15, 2013 9:38 PM   Edit
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May 15, 2013 10:10 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Brenda, the Lord has truly gifted you and my heart rejoices in reading that poem.
I give you a big AMEN to that.
Lots of love
Paul

May 16, 2013 9:28 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes Jerry, there are two Jesus, one who is a false Jesus (2 Cor.11:4), and the true Jesus is the one which I preach who is the 'true Jesus' who is Lord God the Almighty the creator of heaven and earth an He is certainly NOT a man(Ps. 50:21+ Numbers 23:19).

Jerry, this is most important to understand. If you or any man does not understand that, then it is inevitable to preach a false Jesus and the testimony concerning God is false. To know that is more important then to know the Genesis account and the fall of man (this post).

You can be wrong in any other doctrine of the Scripture, but in the doctrine of God you should not be wrong or it will have serious consequences. The doctrine of God is by far the most important doctrine! And any man of God MUST thoroughly know this doctrine and understand it in order to preach the true God (1 John 5:20) and eternal life.

In the beginning, God is Spirit (John 4:24), and this Spirit is the Spirit in Jesus Christ our Lord and God. He created everything in Genesis 1. His Name was not known in the Old Testament, and the Prophets of old have foretold that this creator God who is Spirit would in a future time be born in the flesh just like a man but through a virgin. After this creator God was born into His own creation as a baby, the whole world knew His NAME, the name of God 'JESUS' and afterwards all of His disciples including me, we preach, teach and testify that this JESUS is the Christ, the Lord God the Almighty which was foretold by the Prophets.

Now, we who believe in Him use many illustrations from the Scriptures and through LOGIC and through signs and wonders to portray and proof that this JESUS is the Lord God the Almighty and beside Him is NO OTHER!
Here you can see clearly that there are NOT two Jesus, one a man the other a spirit or whatever.

No one can see God who is Spirit unless He is clothed in flesh (Jesus Christ of Nazareth).
No one can see you unless you are clothed in flesh, that is because you are created in Gods image (Gen. 1:27), spirit, soul and body you have been created.

May 16, 2013 9:47 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Look brother Jerry, you also should know, preach and teach those things just as I do, or better, and do not imitate those who preach a lot of religious garbage which has no value.
The message must be clear!
Jesus was not created as you have said, but rather He made or created for Himself a body to dwell in it.
You said, "it was a sacrifice of the flesh that He had taken upon Himself?"
Well brother, I am not familiar with that saying, it doesn't sound right.
I like to say it as simple as I can.
Jesus sacrificed Himself, that is His flesh, His flesh was nailed to the cross. You cannot nail a Spirit to a cross, therefore it had to be His body. Remember the sacrificial lamb of God, and it was the body which was sacrificed.
The punishment for our sins fell upon His BODY, (a Spirit you cannot punish), and by His stripes on His body we are healed.

Death for the Lord Jesus was accomplished when His Spirit was separated from His body. Jesus said, 'I will lay down my life on my own accord and three days later I will raise it again' (speaking of His body).
Jesus suffered death for our sins and by His resurrection from the death we too have been risen to the newness of life (born again).
Remember we were IN Christ and were crucified with Christ to the cross, therefore our water-baptism symbolises that event.

That does NOT mean every human being on the face of the earth, but only those who are IN Christ before creation who came through the line of Adam.
If there is the ELECT, then by necessity there must be the REJECT.

When you said that "Christ Jesus sits on the right side of the Lord God Almighty's throne in Heaven, it is actually referring to the man Christ Jesus took the form of when He walked among us in the flesh, and it will be that man who will subject himself to God after everything in this world is accomplished? ",
Yes, if you think that to be a metaphor? Because the Lord Jesus does not sit on any throne or chair or on the right side of any other person.
If not, then there are TWO Gods, that would be unthinkable.

May 16, 2013 9:51 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Anonymous,
Thank you for your comment.

May 16, 2013 9:52 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

So, my dear Paul, if it indeed true that the spirit cannot be punished, what will Judgment Day be all about? For it is written: And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

May 17, 2013 3:38 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Well brother Jerry, there are many brothers and sisters who hold the view that judgement day is after a person has died. That is futuristic thinking and there are many problems associated with that view.

So then, let's look at the beginning, everything starts at the beginning.
God said, you shalt 'NOT'! (Gen.2:17) is the command.
Because you have 'DONE'! (Gen.3:13-14) is the Judgement.

Here you can see that the Judgement Day started immediately after the transgression of the commandment (the Law) and that is forever (Gen.3:13 to 4:16).

Tell me, does that sound like Judgement-Day after death?

Lets look in our neighborhood, our churches, our families, our nations, the hospitals are full of people with the worst kind of sicknesses imaginable, the mental asylum full of suffering people and professing Christians, The earthquakes, tsunamis, wars and much more.
Do you think that their Day of Judgement hasn't arrived yet?

Yes, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
If that is the Judgement of the Lord, how then should we conduct our lives??

Having said that, yes I do believe in a Judgement after death, but the soul and not the spirit and not for those who belong to Jesus Christ. Remember that the Lord Jesus was punished for our sins and we cannot be judged again (double jeopardy).

Well Jerry,that would be another great topic to talk about and I'm sure you would love it.

May 17, 2013 11:05 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

There is a second death spoken of in Revelation ch. 20, and I believe there is a difference between 'sin' and 'wickedness'.

May 18, 2013 12:10 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Whoa, my dear Paul, you did a back flip and a half on this one. For you started out with contending that it is wrong to think of there being a Judgment Day after physical death when Hebrews 9:27-28 provides us with very clear written confirmation of what our Heavenly Father actually says is absolutely true about the matter, and then you profess your belief in there being a Judgment Day after we physically die! Are you trying to outsmart yourself?

In all seriousness, you are not wrong about those who have not truly accepted Christ Jesus as their own personal Lord and Savior being under condemnation before they physically die and all who have truly accepted Him as being their own personal Lord and Savior not having to face condemnation—after they physically die. For it is written: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” {John 3:16-21 NAS}

You also touched upon something that could clear up a considerable amount of my confusion concerning what you are saying about the spirit being unpunishable. That is, of course, if you would be so kind as to explain the difference between the soul and the spirit.

May 18, 2013 12:16 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes Brenda, there is a second death and what do you think that is?

May 19, 2013 9:14 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Jerry, First who is that 'Heavenly Father' you are talking about?

All Muslims, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Jews etc. all believe in a heavenly father, but they certainly do NOT believe in MY Heavenly Father.

Second; You have a teaching there I do not believe. Yes I know that most churches teach that, but for you and I we ought to believe in Jesus Christ and in His Word the Bible.

You said, 'those who truly have accepted Jesus as their own personal Lord and Savior.'

Well brother, I have a problem with all that kind of thinking (doctrine), it is nowhere taught in the Scriptures. In fact it is contrary to it and it defies the sovereignty of the King of Kings (Jesus Christ).

Jerry, If it is NOT possible for a commoner to ACCEPT the Queen of England as your mother, then what makes us think that we as sinners can say to the King of Kings, 'I have decided to 'ACCEPT YOU as my Father'?
It would be the same as Cain saying to God, 'you are my Father.

No my brother! You need to rethink your gospel.

Just a simple rule; If you do NOT proclaim the Lord Jesus Christ as SOVEREIGN in ALL things and in every way, then that preaching and doctrine is NOT true.
And it matters not how many Scriptures are quoting, it always will be wrong and unsatisfying.

I'm not saying that to be contrary, but only so that you would preach the excellency of our wonderful Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Because God is Spirit (John 4:24), soul (Isa.1:14) and body (Jesus Christ), and He has created us in His likeness, therefore we have also a spirit, a soul and a body.

Some Christians think that the spirit is the same as the soul, however I do not believe that.
The Spirit is the life which has been given by God, the soul is the emotions, feeling, tasting, seeing, hearing etc. and the body is the vehicle to carry the two.

In the beginning Adam and Eve were made perfect. After they sinned they died immediately (spiritually) and after about 930 years their body also died.

Brenda, here you can see the 'two' death, the first is in Adam the second when we die physically.

Through Adams sin we all have died and we were born spiritually dead. And for this reason we must be born again by the Spirit of God in order to enter, see, and function again in the realm of the Spirit. Everyone who is not born again can only function in the soul area because they are spiritually dead.
If a person is spiritually dead, how then can their dead spirit be punished?
I think that it is the soul and the body who will be punished, just like the Lord Jesus on the cross.

May 19, 2013 9:24 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Part 1 of 2: My Heavenly Father is the Lord God Almighty, who created all that exists apart from Himself, and in order to accomplish His purposes in this world, He “created” extensions of Himself in the form of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit. Come to think of it, do you not find it rather curious that He had it written that the Spirit of God moved over the face of the waters {Genesis 1:2} instead of it just being God, who moved over the face of the waters?

Alas, we can cuss and discuss this doctrine and that doctrine, but without a clear understanding of just what our Heavenly Father wants to accomplish in this world, very little will make any sense at all. In fact, it would require an enormous amount of blind faith to believe any of it, but since the kind of faith that is truly of Him is not blind, nor deaf, we can know and understand a great deal more than what far too many have been led to believe for far too long.

No, I am not claiming to know everything, but I do have a very clear understanding of enough to have full confidence in what I want to believe He has given me to say, with the last part about me wanting to believe that what I have been given to say is from the Lord God Almighty Himself merely being a concession to the possibility that it may all very well be just matters of my opinion based upon figments of my imagination. For I have never actually seen Him speaking to me.

Anyway, the reason why our Heavenly Father created this world, along with us as we naturally are in it, was in order to give Himself opportunities to receive a very special kind of love from each and every one of us. For He could have, just as easily, created us to live in His Kingdom of Heaven as heirs to all that is His glory, complete with incorruptible spiritual bodies, from the very beginning, but who in their right-mind would not want to love Him in a place like that? Whereas, it takes a very special kind of love to want to give Him the full benefit of our considerable doubts while we suffer so greatly in this prison of a world.

Be assured that it is most certainly a demonic doctrine that He really did create some to be saved and all others for destruction. For what was given in Romans 9:22-25 is meant as a rhetorical question. After all, could it be that the Lord God Almighty is actually an ego-maniac, who would create billions upon billions without any hope of ever spending all of eternity with Him in His Kingdom of Heaven as an heir to all that is His in glory just to prove that He can?

Now, it is true that the names of His children by faith were written into the Book of Life before He started laying the foundation of this world, but that is only in reference to the absolute truth of the matter truly being that He has always known who would want to be one of His children by faith, who are also referred to as being the elect.

May 20, 2013 12:19 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

May 20, 2013 12:22 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Part 2 of 2: In regards to our Heavenly Father not losing any of His children by faith, be assured that this is a statement of the absolute truth of the matter truly being that the devil and his demons cannot take any away from Him. For even in the cases of those who have lived almost their entire natural lives in sin and debauchery, there will come a time (often several) when they will be free to repent of their actions, and this also applies to even the most wickedly evil toward others from among us. However, it may not be until just before they take their last breath in this world that this time will come. For our Heavenly Father does not delight in the destruction of anyone.

Yes, it is written in the Scriptures that it is actually Christ Jesus who will not allow the devil and his demons to snatch any of His sheep out of His hand {John 10:25-30}, but since He is One and the Same with our Heavenly Father, it is not wrong to refer to Him as also being our Heavenly Father. In fact, it is actually better to do so—especially in this day and age. For far too many have been led to believe that it would do them well to actually be afraid of the Lord God Almighty while placing their faith in the protection from His wrath afforded them through the sacrifice that the Lord Jesus Christ made on the behalf of us all when the absolute truth of the matter truly is that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the Lord God Almighty!

Speaking of such, all who have accepted Christ Jesus as being their own personal Lord and Savior has the gift of eternal life in Him, and all who have not accepted Him as being their own personal Lord and Savior do not {1 John 5:1-12}. This is all part of truly wanting to be one of His children by faith. For He has always wanted as many as will to want to accept Him as truly being their own Heavenly Father, and it is for this reason that He has given us a choice in the matter. Whereas, no one from among us is given a choice of who their own natural parents are, but all are given a choice of who they want their own Heavenly Father to be.

I could go on and on, but enough has been said already. More of what I have been given to say so far about what has been addressed here and a number of other things is contained in Bittersweet Refinements. I am in the process of changing its online appearance, but it is good enough as is for now.

http://fishhawkdroppings.blogspot.com/search/label/Bittersweet%20Refinements

May 20, 2013 12:32 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

I'm not sure what it means Paul, Revelation ch.20 records it as being the lake of fire which anyone who was not written in the book of life was thrown into. I feel I want to find out more about this, I will pray about it because it is coming into my mind occasionally.

May 20, 2013 4:58 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Thank you Jerry so much to give us a rough outline of what you believe and your doctrinal stand, it gives us a better understanding how you see spiritual things.

I haven't yet read your post link, but I will as soon as I can, I am very busy at the moment.

Jerry, I understand that you are looking and seeing Biblical doctrines from a complete different premise than I, and the problem is that there is no middle ground and that makes things very difficult.

Just a few examples;
You think that our Heavenly Father is NOT the Lord Jesus Christ, but another identity.
You think that the word 'God' to be another person than the Lord Jesus Christ.
You think that God loves everybody so much, and at the end He throws most of them into hell.
You think that men have a special love by which they can love God.
Concerning children, you think that we become Gods children by what WE DO.
Concerning the new birth, you think that we get saved, born again by our free will and only if we meet certain conditions and requirements of God etc.
You think that God really wants to save your neighbour, but He just can't really do it, because your neighbour doesn't want to believe and doesn't give his heart to Jesus etc. and the list goes on and on.

Well brother, I believe and teach the opposite to all that, I believe and know for certain that the Lord Jesus Christ is sovereign (superior) to men. If He wants to do something, whatever it is, He always gets it done!
If He would have wanted to save everybody, then nobody would be in hell.
If He wants to save all His children, then not one of His children will be lost.
If He doesn't want to save the devils children (according to this post), then certainly they will never ever see life eternal.
If the Lord Jesus wants to bless and show kindness to His children AND the devils children by whatever condition He makes, He surely will accomplish His will because He is the Sovereign Lord.
If He makes out of the same lump of clay vessels for honourable use and others for dishonourable use, does that make Him unjust? Therefore (Rom. 9:22-25) is not a rhetorical question, it is explained from v.8-23.
No Jerry! The doctrines of this world are not true, therefore we need to adjust to the doctrines of the Apostles the Scriptures whether we like it or not.

I agree, the Scriptures are sometimes difficult to understand, but remember that the Lord Jesus will lead us into all the truth, but His correction sometimes is not well received.

May 22, 2013 10:35 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Brenda, when do you think that someone's name was written in the book of life? And Why?

May 22, 2013 10:36 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

No, my dear Paul, none of those few examples you gave of what I think are true, nor have I given any indication of thinking that way. However, I am willing to give you the full benefit of my considerable doubts concerning you sincerely believing that this is the way I am looking at what our Heavenly Father actually says is absolutely true.

May 22, 2013 12:36 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

First of all Paul I have to know what the book of life is. I know that the Lord has spoken Jeremiah ch.1 verse 5 to me personally saying that He knew me before He formed me in the womb He knew me, and I know that I feel these words from Psalm 139 v.16, as far as my relationship with Him is concerned, 'Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be.', and that they appear to link in with my 'near death experience'. However, although that mentions a book, that does not clarify what the 'book of life' is and I can not say what is being spoken by the Lord to other people personally. If the Bible is the book of life then there are good kings, bad kings and all sorts of people written in those scriptures, and are we a certain person to God according to what spirit is in us at a particular time or do we, once called, remain a particular 'spiritual person' as in John the baptist being in the spirit of Elijah? This still does not explain what the book of life is and those who were not in it being thrown into the lake of fire, unless it is a warning to everyone how to be as they each work out their salvation 'with fear and trembling'.

May 22, 2013 5:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes Jerry, I know that you are a wise man, but even a wise man needs to trim the wick of his lantern so that the light might shine brighter.

If you think that the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT your Heavenly Father, then necessity demands from you to believe in TWO gods, or that the Lord Jesus is NOT the Lord God the Almighty but just a man.

Again necessity demands, if one is elected, the other must be rejected.

The same is for love, if God loves one person, then by necessity another person must be hated by God, or else the word 'love' has no meaning.

If there is no hell, heaven has no meaning!

Only in contrast you know and understand and in experience you are assured and comforted.

Everything concerning God works like that, even salvation. If God wants to save Tom, then by necessity Tom can NOT be lost.

To believe and understand that which I have said will give you an unshakable trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

May 23, 2013 8:28 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Brenda, I think we both know that the book of life is NOT a book with pages. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty and He has an excellent memory and does not need to write things in a book.

Therefore the book of life is a metaphorical explanation to tell you that you were in Christ Jesus our Lord BEFORE the foundation of the world, that you are a child of God and He foreknew that He would give you the name 'Brenda'. Also He knows the names of ALL of HIS CHILDREN and will cause them at the appropriate time to be born again.
And that foreknowledge of the Lord is the book of life just as it is written "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated".

Now, all those whose names are NOT written in the book of life will never ever SEE life but abide in death. Those are the children of the devil, the serpent, through Cain and all his children to this very day (check this post).

Brenda, what do you think, are Muslims, Buddhists, Jehovah Witnesses, Hare Krishna, Mormons, murderers, liars, thief's, and warmongers etc. the children of God our Father Jesus Christ?? well Brenda, I think NOT!
Yes they may believe in a god, but their god is certainly not the Lord Jesus Christ and everyone who does not believe in Him will perish.

May 23, 2013 8:33 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Paul,
that is why we are called to preach the Gospel in the way that He has enabled us to. We are in the end times and the Lord wants all to be saved. He told me a long time ago to call no man 'evil' for once I was evil myself. The Hebrew word for 'evil', when turned around, spells the Hebrew word for 'awaken'. God wants us all turned around, and to awaken in Him.

May 23, 2013 10:36 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Could it be, my dear Paul, that you have mistaken me for someone else? For I have been insisting that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the Lord God Almighty, only in another form, from the very beginning of our exchanges.

Perhaps it is the simple faith that you most humbly attest to having that needs some very close examination? For by your very own words, it has been asserted that the physical body that Christ Jesus took upon Himself to be sacrificed for our sins was tainted with demonic blood. Therefore, even by your reasoning, He could not have been the perfect sacrifice that was required to fulfill the Law.

Of course, what does it really matter—right? For if it indeed true that none from among us, as in all of mankind, has ever had a real choice of who they really are, no one from among us has ever been actually lost. Subsequently, if it is indeed true that no one from among us, as in all of mankind, has ever been actually lost, there has never been anyone to actually save—right?

Alas, does that not make a mockery out of the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ—not to mention make Him out to be a liar? For if your reasoning is indeed correct, He has never actually saved anyone from eternal damnation—let alone paid the price in full for our sins.

May 23, 2013 10:50 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Brenda, you said, "the Lord wants all to be saved".
Please tell me how can He do that without violating the sovereignty of God?

May 25, 2013 11:49 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

No brother Jerry, I haven't mistaken you for someone else.

And I know that you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty.
A lot of Christians believe and say that, but what they don't say is what troubles me, and that is that they also belief that their Heavenly Father who is called Jehovah is also 'God the Almighty'. That is the transgression of the first commandment of the Lord.

In contrast, my language is clear without any hidden meaning or compromise.
My Heavenly Father is the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth and beside Him is NO OTHER!

If I do not hear that sound from a believer, then I question their belief till they come to understand and say that Jesus is Lord.

As to you my dear brother; please tell me, when the Lord Jesus prayed in John 17, to which Heavenly Father did He pray, if He is supposed to be our Heavenly Father?

Concerning the body of our Lord, it is important to understand that He did NOT have the seed or the DNA of the serpent (the beast) in His flesh (body).
Jesus was the Lamb of God without blemish!

I will explain; A baby is a complete human being when the 23 chromosomes of the male are united with the 23 chromosomes of the female a total of 46 chromosomes which happens at conception, and so the child will have the DNA of both, the mother and the father.
Now that was NOT so with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus was born through the virgin Mary as in 'surrogacy'. Jesus had the 46 chromosomes from God (Holy Spirit), therefore there was no DNA mingling with Mary.
For this reason the Lord Jesus is called the only begotten Son of God, which means the only one of a kind, the perfect sacrificial lamb of God. So then there is no tainting with any demonic blood as you have said.

Jerry how can you say, "no one from among us has ever been actually lost", when I clearly demonstrated that from Adam ALL have died and are lost, therefore ALL need to be saved.

May 25, 2013 11:54 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Paul it states this in 1 Timothy ch.2. What do you mean when you say How can He do that without violating the sovereignty of God, it is God who wants all to be saved.

May 26, 2013 1:11 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

By the way Paul I agree with what you say in your comment to Jerry about the birth of Jesus, there was no human insemination. Jesus Himself confirms that He (the Messiah)was not descended from David in Mark ch.12 v.35.

May 26, 2013 1:21 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Part 1 of 2: That was an excellent explanation of the virgin Mary serving as a surrogate for our Heavenly Father’s only begotten Son, my dear Paul, but you are still missing the main point. For spiritual death is the penalty for sin—not physical death. For all of us, as in all of mankind, will physically die while not all will suffer eternal spiritual death.

Spiritual death is the second death that is referred to in the Book of Revelation and other places. It is total separation from our Heavenly Father, in whom is all life.

Yes, that really messes with the heads of those who have been led to believe that all without Christ Jesus are spiritually dead already, but the absolute truth of the matter truly is that they are just as good as dead (so to speak). Come Judgment Day, they will actually spiritually die.

The same principle also applies to those who are said to be saved. For they are as good as saved in this world, but it will not be until Judgment Day before they are actually saved.

Now, this is not to discount the significance of being born-again in Christ Jesus. For when that happens, one is made much more aware of Him always being with them, as well as being allowed and enabled to see and understand things as He does—depending upon what He wants to accomplish in and through each individual.

No, being born-again in Christ Jesus is not the same for all. For some are meant to be frontline soldiers in the fight against spiritual ignorance while others are meant to serve in much more minor supporting roles. Nonetheless, even those meant for much more supporting roles are allowed and enabled to recognize what is truly of our Heavenly Father and what is not—even though they may not have a very clear understanding of what is really being said.

Speaking of such, our Heavenly Father, who truly is the Lord God Almighty, “created” extensions of Himself, in the forms of His only begotten Son, who truly is the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit, in order to accomplish His purposes in this world. One of those purposes was to fulfill the full requirement of His Law. For without doing that, He would have been admitting that it was not worth being fully upheld.

Hence, He needed a perfect spiritual sacrifice to pay the price in full for our sins, and the sacrifice of one of His Holy angels would not do. For aside from wanting to fulfill the full requirement of His Law, He wanted to prove that what He wanted to accomplish in this world is real, and that instead of just saying that He loves us enough to die for us, He went ahead and really did it by sending a full and equal part of Himself to be crucified upon that cruel, cruel Roman cross at Calvary.

May 26, 2013 2:51 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Part 2 of 2: In regards to Him always wanting all of us, as in all of mankind, to be saved from facing eternal spiritual death, that is indeed true—be assured, but only those who would want to accept Him as truly being their own Heavenly Father, which most certainly involves the acceptance of His only begotten Son as being their own personal Lord and Savior, will be saved from being cast into the Lake of Fire, come Judgment Day.

Those are the elect, whose names have been written in the Book of Life since before He started laying the foundation of this world. For He has known since the very beginning what would be in the end.

Be assured that only the wicked would think of acceptance of our Heavenly Father’s most gracious gift of eternal spiritual life as being the same as us saving ourselves. For in the same way as we must actually eat the food that He provides for our physical sustenance, and only the most arrogant would dare to think that they have had a hand in keeping themselves from starving to death, His free gift of eternal spiritual life in Christ Jesus must be accepted in order to be received, and only the most arrogant would dare to think that they have had a hand in their own salvation.

Moreover, the absolute truth of the matter truly is that none of us would even know about His free gift—let alone want to accept it, without Him allowing and enabling each individual to do so. Therefore, none of us have any reason to boast, except for in the Lord, our God and Savior.

One more thing that should be addressed at this time concerns the wrath that our Heavenly Father will pour down upon the wicked, come Judgment Day. For it has much more to do with the pain from intense heartbreak than righteous indignation. After all, why would any other sin, except for rejection of Him and the righteousness of all of His most awesome ways, be so upsetting unto Him when we are the creation of His hands?

No, this is not to suggest that we really are physically born into sin. For the sins of the family are not held against the children.

Neither is this to suggest that we are created to sin. MAY IT NEVER BE! For there is a big difference between being created to sin and being created without the ability to not sin. Alas, it would do us all well to understand that there is nothing good about any of us apart from our Heavenly Father, but of what value is that to those who do not want to believe it?

May 26, 2013 2:52 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Yes Jerry,
I think the second death could be spiritual death, there is a sin unto death, Mark ch. 3 v.28-29 reads 'Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin'.

May 26, 2013 5:21 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Thank you for adding that to this, my dear Brenda. Be assured that there is another Scriptural reference that you have been made familiar with. For it is written: If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. {1 John 5:16-17 NIV}

May 26, 2013 9:32 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

That's right Jerry and that verse goes on to instruct not to pray for the sin that leads to death. What do you think that means?

May 26, 2013 5:41 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

That also had me somewhat perplexed, my dear Brenda. When I asked our Heavenly Father what it was all about, He told me that it has to do with not expecting Him to save someone who does not really want to be saved. For He will honor the prayers for someone to be delivered out of something, such as alcoholism—even while that person still wants to remain a drunk, with it all depending upon what He wants to accomplish in and through the afflicted and those praying for them. Whereas, when it comes to truly accepting Him as being their own Heavenly Father, He only wants those who truly want Him. Now, this is not to say that He does not do anything special to draw the lost and confused unto Himself, but it would not accomplish His purposes to force anyone to spend all of eternity with Him as an heir to all that is His in glory against their true will.

It might be helpful to think of it in regards to being drafted into an army during a time of war. For some will truly want to serve in order to help their country survive and prosper while others will only want to report for duty in order to avoid being cast into prison. Be assured that all who come to Christ Jesus only to avoid spending all of eternity in Hell are of no true and lasting satisfaction unto Him.

May 26, 2013 9:47 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Jerry, Mark ch. 3 v.28-30 and Matthew ch.12 vs. 30-32 refer to the unforgivable sin as 'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit'. This was spoken to the scribes and the pharisees, before Jesus was crucified. 1 John ch.5 was written to those that believe on the name of the Son of God (v. 13). V.14 and v.16 refer to how those believers may pray for themselves or a brother, and yet the sin unto death is still relevant. As far as drawing people to Himself (if you are referring to the unbeliever), we are told that Jesus said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. (John ch.5 v.44), and that no one can come to the Father except through Him.(John ch.14 v.6). So God does the calling, through Jesus Christ alone, but even then there is a sin unto death.

May 26, 2013 10:45 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Hi Paul,
I must apologize to you. I suddenly realized I am having a discussion on your blog with another blogger about something that has nothing to do with your post at all. I will stop it now. If Jerry wants to further discuss this subject he can email me.

May 27, 2013 4:30 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

[Part 1 of 2 ]
Jerry and Brenda I really appreciate your view on all those interesting Bible points and matters.
I would love that all of us could sit around the table with open Bibles in fellowship and discuss all that plus more in every detail, but on the blog it is not as easy.
And Brenda, there is no need to apologise for anything because every point and individual understanding of everything is important for us to get a fuller and deeper understand of the matters pertaining to God.

I think that in any point, word or subject of the Scriptures it is important that we first come to an agreement, and have a common understanding of a particular word or a terminology so that we will not come to different conclusions and misunderstandings etc.

In my understanding, 'death' is the absence of life. Death does NOT mean annihilation. Death means SEPARATION.
As I have said previously that the Lord told Adam, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die' (Gen.2 :17". Here we can see that Adam died immediately the same day, but that was spiritually, his spirit was separated from God who is Spirit and in Adam we all have died (spiritually) and that is Adams FIRST death and therefore also our FIRST death (separation) and for this reason Jesus said that we must be born again.
Now when we get born again, we have received that LIFE as a free gift which was lost by Adams sin or more correctly by Eves sin (according to this post).
Now because of that, there can NOT be another spiritual death (separation) again for the saints, but only a physical death, which is the separation of the soul from the body, which is called the second death till the resurrection of the saints.

The SECOND death was for Adam 930 years later, and for us the second death is when they put our flesh (body) under the ground (dust), and there can NOT be another death again for the saints, and even that death is only temporary till we have received the resurrection body of immortality.
All that is only for the elect, Gods children and not for the children of the devil (serpent) as demonstrated in this post.

May 27, 2013 11:34 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

[Part 2 of 2]
The DEATH of the serpents children is different, unlike Adam, Cain was born spiritually dead, he was a soul man and his FIRST death was when his body was separated from his soul, and all his children were born spiritually dead just like we were.

But with us it was the Lord Jesus Christ who made us alive (born again) in Him and that was not by our will or the will of the flesh but the will of God, and since it is NOT by the will of man, God obviously did not make the serpents children spiritually alive and therefore they could not spiritually die.

The SECOND death for the non elect the serpents children is different and it is reviled in Revelation 21:6-8
Having said that, and having read your interpretations which are very different to mine.
I interpret the Scriptures in the light of the 'Election doctrines', which causes me to see basically everything the other way around as you do with no middle road.

I believe that man is spiritually DEAD as I have demonstrated. You do NOT believe that man is spiritually dead, you think that man is still a little bit alive to make decisions and choose or accept etc.

You said, "For all of us, as in all of mankind, will physically die while not all will suffer eternal spiritual death."
Also, "In regards to Him always wanting all of us, as in all of mankind, to be saved from facing eternal spiritual death, that is indeed true—be assured, but only those who would want to accept Him as truly being their own Heavenly Father, which most certainly involves the acceptance of His only begotten Son as being their own personal Lord and Savior, will be saved from being cast into the Lake of Fire, come Judgement Day."

Perhaps you might see that is contrary to my explanation (above) on spiritual life and death.
And neither do I believe that a sinner CAN or WILL accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Heavenly Father.
NO brother Jerry they can not! It is impossible for a DEAD person to choose life! This kind of thinking is not in the Bible, it is to the contrary. Jesus does the choosing, which is called election, it is Jesus who gives life by His will, and the dead does not have a will because they are dead. For this reason it is written, ' (Rom. 3:11-12) There is NO ONE who seeks God, there is NO ONE who chooses God, NO not even one!'
(Rom.1:30) ALL are God haters! And no God hater would ever choose Jesus.
Jerry, I love you enough to tell you the truth, because you don't believe the election of God, therefore your salvation teaching is also NOT true.

May 27, 2013 11:41 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

My dear Paul, could you please explain what the following verse is giving us written confirmation of? For it is written: For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. {Romans 11:32 NIV}

May 28, 2013 12:22 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Hi Paul,
yes I would love that we could all sit down and discuss the scriptures but that is a little difficult considering that the countries we live in are Australia, America and Wales. Still, I do feel that I have much to say regarding what you have now added, if that is alright with you. When I have the time I will get back to you with my own views on what you have written.

May 28, 2013 7:29 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

(Romans 11:32) "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all."

Yes brother Jerry, God 'MAY' have mercy on them all. It doesn't say that He WILL have mercy on all, it is said, "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden (Rom.9:18)".

(Rom.11:32) is an explanation addressed to the ELECT, that is to us the spiritual Israel and not the natural Israel and is as far as election is concerned (v.28). It does not speak about salvation from death unto life, but about mercy.

Now mercy is when the Lord is lenient concerning their sins and our sins, just as the Scriptures says, 'blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven (Psa,32:1)'. That is applied to both Gods children and to Satan's children, the Lord let the rain fall upon the righteous and the unrighteous alike.
Satan's children will also be blessed if they do what God commands, and yes! They also will be 'saved' from the punishment of God if they do what God has said. Therefore the Scriptures commands ALL men to repent in order that they may be saved from the wrath of God against all ungodliness.

Even though Satan's children will be rewarded by God for their obedience whether knowing or unknowing, but they will NEVER EVER see life, in other words they can NOT be born again, that is the only difference 'between them and us.

Throughout the entire Bible there are always two groups starting from Genesis to Revelation, Gods children and Satan's children as demonstrated in this post, the elect and the reject, those who are alive and those who are dead, the righteous and the unrighteous, the saved and the unsaved, the believers and the unbelievers, the saints and the sinners, the US and the THEM.
All passages of the Scriptures addresses one or the other, or both.
We have to listen to Jesus whether He speaks to US or about US, or whether He speaks to THEM or about THEM, or to US about THEM and some times He portrays the contrast between US and THEM.
A good example is (1 Thes.5:11) While THEY are saying. Destruction will come upon THEM. THEY shall not escape, but YOU brethren etc. etc.

I think that to be important to know, or else we end up in a confusion and worse not trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ.

May 28, 2013 10:02 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes Brenda I know :-)

But even now we are already sitting at His banqueting table and His banner over us is love.

May 28, 2013 10:03 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Paul,
we all take part in the second death if it was to mean the death of the physical body, those who have been born again included. The sin unto death is not to be prayed for. Peter accused Ananias and Sapphira of allowing Satan to fill their heart and lying to the Hoy Spirit. They weren't prayed for. Their sin that was not prayed for was not that they had kept some of the money, or lying just to human beings,(which can be prayed for) it was the lying to God. The second death according to the scriptures in Revelation ch.21 is clarified in v 8 'But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death.' It does not say the physical death of the body. I believe that God is extremely long suffering and patient with us, understanding that we are flesh and I believe that, although there are scriptures that appear harsh, they are spoken to the individual by God personally only when God knows they need to be spoken, when the individual born again person has reached the correct stage of maturity. Until then it comes as a warning, just like children learn from parents who love them. You say that you interpret the scriptures in the 'light' of the 'election doctrines'. I don't know what 'doctrines' those are and I have only ever felt that the scriptures were being enlightened to me by the Holy Spirit. What are these doctrines that you speak of?

May 28, 2013 10:19 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Are you are now saying that a sinner can respond unto our Heavenly Father calls for repentance, my dear Paul, while staying true to your belief that only those of the divine bloodline can receive eternal life? Does this not make our Heavenly Father out to be even more of a monster? For if it is indeed true that it is only by His power that a sinner can repent, why would He not also want to save them from eternal damnation—especially since they had no choice in their ancestry?

May 28, 2013 11:38 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Brenda, I agree that we all have a second death.
Revelation 21 is the death only for the wicked, the murderers, the unbelieving etc. who are the children of the devil.
But we are the children of the Lord Jesus Christ the living God who has called us out of darkness and into His marvellous light.

Our physical (flesh) body will indeed go to the dust (grave), that is because our flesh is polluted by the nature and the DNA of the beast (as demonstrated in this post). Therefore we need a new body, a resurrection body which the Lord Jesus has promised us. Just as the Lord Jesus was buried for three days in the tomb, so our bodies will be buried in the grave and it must be changed in a twinkle of an eye just as the Lord has said, 'for this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory. O death where is your victory? O death where is your sting? etc.' all that is so wonderfully explained in (1 Cor.15).
So then our second death is called death, but it really is a transformation from mortality to immortality just as we always say, 'even if we die we shall rise again'.

Election doctrine in a nutshell;
The election doctrine teaches that God elected some for eternal life and rejected others by HIS WILL. Salvation by grace alone, and is also called the sovereignty of God. Commonly known as Calvinism because John Calvin presented an outline called the TULIP doctrine.
Now the opposing doctrine from James Arminius which is called Arminianism teaches that man is elected in Christ by man's free will etc. salvation by faith.
Below is a clear example of Jerrys comment.
=================
"This is all part of truly wanting to be one of His children by faith. For He has always wanted as many as will to want to accept Him as truly being their own Heavenly Father, and it is for this reason that He has given us a choice in the matter.
In regards to Him always wanting all of us, as in all of mankind, to be saved from facing eternal spiritual death, that is indeed true—be assured, but only those who would want to accept Him as truly being their own Heavenly Father, which most certainly involves the acceptance of His only begotten Son as being their own personal Lord and Savior, will be saved from being cast into the Lake of Fire, come Judgement Day."
==================
Brenda, this is a typical Arminian comment.
Perhaps you might be able to see how brother Jerry puts this amazing trust and faith in his free will and choice.
In fact Jerry believes that God couldn't save anyone apart from them activating their own free will and choice.
And see how 'men' is always in front of God.
Brenda, this is called the sovereignty of MAN!

I believe totally the opposite to that! which is called the sovereignty of GOD.
No offence to you brother Jerry, but you should look into those matters and deal with them in the Lord.

May 29, 2013 11:14 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes brother Jerry I say that! and there is no contradiction in that, it does not declare God to be unjust or a monster as you may think.
You might say to me then, "why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "why did you make me like this,"will it? Or does not the potter have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?,(Rom. 9:17-22).

Yes, a man can choose to do good or bad, but he can NOT choose to have life and life eternal.

Consider this; If a man is born blind, he does not know what it means to see a rainbow, no matter how hard you try to tell him.
A blind man doesn't think that there is anything missing. He thinks of himself to be just like anyone else.
Do you think that the blind man's 'will' or his choosing, or his believing etc. will give him the sight?
I think not! Only the Lord Jesus Christ can give a man born blind eyes to see, and that depends on His will and not the blind man's will.
That is both, naturally and spiritually.

May 29, 2013 11:26 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

In answer to your question about who I am to be questioning the will of God, my dear Paul, I am one of His children by faith who believes what He actually says is absolutely true about it being as it should be in the end. For it is written: I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. {Romans 8:18-25 NIV} Another passage that serves as written confirmation of this is: Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. {Matthew 19:28-30 NIV}

Of course, a twisted mind could think that those passages are addressed to only the elect. Alas, is it not a very insidious faith that boasts of being a child of God while not caring a thing about those who supposedly have no hope?

Yes, I take great offense to that. For our Heavenly Father has made spiritual matters very personal to me, and I also take great offense in you telling others what I believe when you have no idea what I really do.

To sum it all up, what I have been given to say is meant to be called Refined Theology, and it is meant to help bridge the gap between Calvinism and Arminianism. Yes, it would be better to do away with “theology” altogether, but denominational doctrines must be addressed because most of what has been taught from the pulpits of all of the major Christian denominations for far too long is quite contrary to what He actually says is absolutely true, and that has had a profound influence upon far too many.

Let us take what you told Brenda for an example. For your exposure to hardcore Calvinism helped to cloud your thinking and gave you license to jump to a very untrue conclusion about what I believe. For I do believe that our Heavenly Father can save even those who have not actually asked Him to. In fact, that is the primary argument that I have been given against what far too many base their opposition to abortions upon. For they claim that the souls of those aborted babies may make it to Heaven, but they will never be allowed to be in the very presence of our Heavenly Father because of not being baptized or at least ask to be saved. Whereas, what I have been given to say about this is that those aborted babies go to our Heavenly Father’s bosom, and that it is those, who see nothing wrong with abortions, who are in desperate need of saving, which we can only help with.

No, my dear Paul, I am not an Arminian, which should have been made very clear in http://fishhawkdroppings.blogspot.com/2009/10/bittersweet-refinements-chapter-xix.html, which I have asked you to read. Maybe you would do well to do a little research on those you want to attack before you make a fool out of yourself and the One you are supposedly serving?

May 30, 2013 1:20 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Paul,
the word 'wicked' in the Bible means to be wrong by making trouble or twisting things. Queen Athaliah was called 'wicked' and yet she was Jewish. I believe that can be referred to someone in spiritual Israel (God's church) also. Romans ch. 11 v.22 'Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.' infers that the Gentiles who have become believers and part of Spiritual Israel can be cut off I can not use any other foundation for being taught except the Holy Spirit, we are told that we can ask for wisdom and knowledge and it will be given to us. 1 Thessalonians ch..5 vs. 4-11 mentions about being asleep or awake 'But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.' It speaks about putting on 'faith and love' as a breastplate and 'the hope of salvation' as a helmet, and encouraging one another. So there is still the acting on the word required from us. As far as the Cain subject is concerned there is so much that could be discussed, the same as we could discuss the subject of Isaac and Ishmael but for now I would just like to mention that I believe the rejection of his offering was because his offering came from the ground, which was cursed. There is a difference between 'earth grown' food and 'sheep' food, just as I believe there is a difference between the doctrines of man and the doctrine of God. Any doctrine has to line up with scripture. As far as who can become children of God John ch.3 v.16 clearly states that 'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.' John ch.1 vs 12 and 13 states 'Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.' I think these scriptures say so much about the love of God. I don't think it coincidence that the Hebrew word for 'evil', turned around, becomes the Hebrew word for 'awaken', and the English word 'evil' turned around becomes 'live'.

May 30, 2013 6:51 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Those were some brilliant points, my dear Brenda.

May 31, 2013 1:04 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

(1 of 2)
Brother Jerry, I know that you are my brother in Christ and a man of God belonging to Jesus Christ just as I and Brenda and everyone who is born again, there is no doubt in my mind because the Spirit who has made His abode in me bears witness that we are the sons of God.

Also I'm thankful to the Lord that you are very patient with me, and perhaps your patience might be stretched a little bit more, so please bear with me.

First, I would like you to know that I thoroughly understand what you believe and how you see certain Scripture passages and statements because I once have believed them myself. About 20 years ago the Lord Jesus had set me free from all those doctrines in a supernatural dramatic way without learning them, but in an instant and in a public place.

And no brother we can not do away with "theology" altogether, the moment we open our mouth we preach theology and there is no other way around.

OK! In theology there are only TWO lines of thinking, preaching, teaching and interpreting, and those two lines can NOT be amalgamated, they are always separate and diametrically oppose each other.
Those two lines have nicknames called 'Calvinism' and 'Arminianism'.
Everyone in Christianity who preaches, teaches and interprets the Scriptures will fall into one or the other line of thinking, and it makes no difference whether we disassociate ourselves from those two names.
You don't claim to be an Arminianist and I don't claim to be a Calvinist, therefore it is our preaching, teaching and interpretation of the Scriptures which determines to which line of thinking we belong, and it makes no difference what we call ourselves, and there is nothing we can do about that, except wear it.

Every Arminian brother will agree with your line of thinking, but not one Calvinist brother will agree with you.
Likewise every Calvinist brother will agree with my line of thinking and not one of the Arminian brothers can and will agree with me.
This was so after the days of the Apostles to this very day and always will be.

Yes my dear brother I would like to convince you to another and better way to interpret Scriptures :-)
To avoid misunderstandings; when I use the word 'saved or salvation' I mean saved from death unto life eternal and not saved from sicknesses or disaster etc.

June 01, 2013 12:55 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

(2 of 2)
I can pick any topic or any doctrine, but for arguments sake I start here.
===========
You said;
"the absolute truth of the matter truly is that none of us would even know about His free gift—let alone want to accept it, without Him allowing and enabling each individual to do so."
==========
Here you are referring to the free gift of 'life' (salvation), which is life from the death, to be born again.
And you are saying that this dead person must do something to have and possess this new life (new birth). He must accept it by his free will in order to have this so called free gift of life in his possession, and Jesus then would enable him to do so, or basically enable him to save himself.
And it gets worse, the dead sinner has the audacity to'ALLOW' the Lord God the Almighty to do something.

Perhaps you can see who the boss is in your comment?
Wow brother, I am almost speechless :-o
You really have to deal with that kind of thinking. I would like you to know that I'm here for you at any time to work that through, and that is not easy because we wrestle not against each other but against powers and principalities in the realm of the spirit.

Salvation is by grace alone and not by doing something, lest we will boast and say 'look at me, I have chosen Jesus that's why I am saved and you not! I have truly accepted Jesus that's why I am saved and you not!' etc.
Salvation is the sole work of the Lord Jesus Christ apart from you doing anything.

Because of your line of theology thinking, it makes it nearly impossible to understand what a free gift is.
Again necessity demands from you to believe that you must take the free gift in order to be yours.
If a gift has been given to you, then you have it without you doing anything.
And because of that misunderstanding of a 'free gift', it leads you to believe that the gospel is something you also need to take in order to be yours, some kind of a smorgasbord event.

June 01, 2013 1:00 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes Brenda, there certainly is the acting on the word of God required from you, just as you have said, but that 'acting' is not in relation to salvation (to be born again).

John 3:16 and John 1:12and 13. I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
If you think that a man can be born again by what he does, then please read it again, John 1 is self-explanatory.

As far as Cain's offering is concerned, I agree with you. Allow me to take you one step farther. Because ALL our efforts, deeds and righteousness are filthy rags to the Lord and not acceptable, therefore the Lord looked with favor upon His son Adam's son Abel and his offering, but he did not look with favor upon the serpents son Cain.
Now who do you think are Adams sons now? And what do you think about their offerings?

June 01, 2013 1:04 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Hi Paul,
when I referred to John ch.3 v.16 and John ch.1 12 and 13, I was saying that through these scriptures I believe that all who receive Jesus and believe on Him have the right to become sons of God however, they have to be first called to Jesus by God, but to 'believe' on Him has a much deeper meaning than just going to a building because He is the Word, so in order to believe on Him we have to believe on that Word, which means acting on it. As far as Cain and Abel are concerned I believe they were both sons of Adam physically, as stated in the scriptures but because the scriptures are discerned spiritually to those who are born again, these scriptures can serve as a warning to the ones born of the second Adam not to offer anything except obedience. Jesus said 'My sheep hear my voice and follow me'. I am still not convinced about once saved always saved. There are too many unanswered questions for me to believe that. However, one thing I am convinced of is that the Lord will teach me as I renew my mind in Him and try to obey Him as He speaks to me. I am sure we all have experiences where the Lord has done that which is supernatural in our lives, but each of us is called for a purpose and I know the Lord told me to follow Him wherever He goes and not to be defiled by 'women' pointing out the connection to me of Isaiah ch.4 and the seven churches of Revelation. That is not to say that christians who go to churches are not born again at all, but the Lord showed me that, just as in the seven churches, there were things that were not in accordance with His word, so too it can be in different denominations. There can be added doctrines to what the Holy Spirit is teaching. I am not sure what you are asking by 'Who do you think are Adam's sons now and what are their offerings.' You will probably have to explain that a bit more Paul.

June 01, 2013 2:24 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

The first think I am compelled to do at this time is to thank you for providing an opportunity to serve. For I know, which goes far beyond merely believing, that you are too deeply entrenched to move from your position without a great deal of very painful soul-searching over a course of far too long, but these exchanges will be most helpful unto others.

By the way, would you please point out to me where I have ever said something about a sinner allowing our Heavenly Father to do anything? Alas, that is something that comes out of the Calvinist handbook on dealing with Arminians, but it most certainly does not apply to dealing with me. For an Arminian would insist that even the Lord God Almighty cannot have any direct dealings with someone without them expressly asking Him to, but only a twisted mind would think that humbly accepting the free gift of eternal life is the same as allowing Him to save them from eternal damnation.

Be assured that I have some very personal experience with our Heavenly Father not needing my permission to do something on my behalf. For when our Heavenly Father first started making Himself real unto me 20 years ago this month, as opposed to just being a character in an ancient book, He did so in answer to me asking the devil to restore my health because of thinking that I could never be good enough for the Lord God Almighty to bless. Soon after that I noticed that I no longer cussed when I talked—not even in my thinking! Oh my, my language had become quite vulgar in every sense of the word, and it came rather naturally to me. In other words, I would drop f-bombs without even noticing it, and after He had done that for me, Isaiah 6:5-8 was brought to my mind as further written confirmation of my calling, with Jeremiah 1:4-10 being the first written confirmation I was given.

No, I did not ask our Heavenly Father for either one of those things. In fact, the problem with my vulgar talk had not even crossed my mind before He cleansed my lips, and I now know that He has been doing things on my behalf without me realizing it at the time since I was in the womb.

Be assured that I hope you will not remain one of those who are ever hearing, but never understanding. For our Heavenly Father is there telling you what He actually says is absolutely true, and when you start actually listening to Him, you will no longer be thinking in terms of interpreting Scripture. For you will recognize that you have the Author of them there telling just exactly what is meant by this or that, along with how the true meanings have been so woefully misunderstood for far too long.

Be also assured that when that truly happens, you will not be thinking of how good it was for you to allow the Lord God Almighty to deliver you out of the darkness of Spiritual ignorance. Neither will you be thinking that this has always been meant for just a chosen few, and your grief over knowing just how much it grieves our Heavenly Father that so very, very many really don’t want to have a very close and personal relationship with Him will be quite overwhelming. Well, at least it will be if it is the same for you as it has been for me.

Of course, as has been said before, it may very be that I am the one who is woefully deceived. In any event, may our Heavenly Father's will be done in our lives.

June 01, 2013 3:42 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

For some reason, 'Many are called but few are chosen' has come into my mind'. After reading Jerry's last comment I have to say that, as I have said before, that this is one of the scriptures (Jeremiah ch.1 vs 4-10) that the Lord spoke to me long ago, and my answer to Him came out almost immediately in a song. I believe, as the scriptures say, that many are called but also, as the scriptures say, few are chosen. It depends how we respond to His call and how obedient we are to what He calls us to do. Only the person themselves and God, truly know how personal that relationship is, what has been spoken to them and whether they have put that calling before anything else.

June 01, 2013 5:43 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Jerry,
can I ask you something. Why would you ask the devil to restore your health all those years ago?

June 02, 2013 12:37 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

As I already said in that reply to Paul, my dear Brenda, it was on account of being convinced that I could never be good enough for the Lord God Almighty to bless me that I reached out to the devil for help. Be assured that it was many "good Christians" who helped to convince me of that. For I had been raised in a very conservative Southern Baptist church atmosphere, and I had been taught that one had to live a righteous life before they could ever hope for the Lord to help them with anything.

So, what we do and say in His name—especially in a public setting, really does matter to more than just what may be going on between the doer/speaker and our Heavenly Father. Therefore, I am compelled to readdress a matter for the benefit of others that you have been deceived about. Be assured that I greatly appreciate the support on other matters, but in your last reply to Paul, you said, “Only the person themselves and God, truly know how personal that relationship is, what has been spoken to them and whether they have put that calling before anything else.” Yet, it was through the Prophet Jeremiah that it was declared to the children of Israel, “You say, ‘I am innocent; He is not angry with me.’ But I will pass judgment on you because you say, ‘I have not sinned.’” {Jeremiah 2:35 NIV}

Come on now, how was it possible for the Prophet Jeremiah to know that unless it was told to him by the One who handed them over to be killed and enslaved by King Nebuchadnezzar after they refused to listen? Be assured that as it was with our Heavenly Father’s anointed special messengers long ago, so is it also with them in this day and age, but this is not to say that all who claim to have a special message from the Lord really do.

June 02, 2013 1:29 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Firstly Jerry, I have never come across anyone who asked the devil to heal them, and I was very surprised to hear that has happened in your life. Secondly, I don't believe I have caused any confusion through my comments on Paul's blog Jerry. Jeremiah ch. 2, as well as speaking about the Israelites then, also speaks about the church (Spiritual Israel) now and it's going after other Gods, and is speaking about the whole of the church. Only I and the Lord know exactly what the Lord is telling me to do and whether I do it or not. Nobody knows what I am shown daily through the Holy Spirit and neither do I know what another person receives from the Lord through the Holy Spirit, unless they share it . It is only the person or persons that those words speak to, and God, will know what is fully being said in each of their lives as they mature in the Lord. I know what God shows me Spiritually from the scriptures and if He tells me to speak something, whether it be prophetic, encouraging, evangelical, or correction for myself, I will speak it or learn from it. Neither yourself, not anyone else can tell me what the Lord has spoken to me today, and vice versa. I know that He has given me my writings and told me to share them on my blogs, and brought me into contact with other bloggers, you and Paul included, and there is purpose in it, both ways. We each have to do what we are being told to do Jerry. I do not worry about what I will have to say regarding this discussion on the blog. What I have said so far is what I believe the Lord wants me to say.

June 02, 2013 1:45 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

My dear Brenda, would you please help me to see where our Heavenly Father has changed His position on still doing as He did through the Prophet Nathan and the Apostle Paul in the following passages?

The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, “There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him. Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.” David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, “As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’ “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’” Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for the Lord, the son born to you will die.” {2 Samuel 12:1-14 NIV}

Concerning Him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. {Hebrews 5:11-14 NAS}

June 02, 2013 2:21 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

I agree Jerry that the Lord still speaks to people in this type of way but they are not recorded in a book as this example is in the Bible. As Paul wrote to Timothy (and this was recorded in the Bible) 'But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.', these things are happening today. However, what is going on in the born again believer of today is not recorded in the Bible, and the individual will be spoken to by the Holy Spirit according to where they are in Christ. There is a time for everything.

June 02, 2013 2:45 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

So, my dear Brenda, do your now see where it is not good for you to keep insisting that no one can really know what is going on between another and our Heavenly Father? Of course these things are not being recorded in the Bible. For the sum-total of His Holy Scriptures was completed almost 2,000 years ago, but this is not to agree with those who insist that He will only speak to us in this day and age through what was placed into written form long ago for our benefit—despite the absolute truth of the matter truly being that every word spoken by Him is Scripture in a very technical sense.

June 02, 2013 9:40 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Jerry, I think that no matter what I say you are going to argue with it. I can see that you are still not understanding what I am about. All what the Lord speaks to me is confirmed with scripture. All I can add really regarding instruction that I feel also applies to myself is what Paul spoke to Timothy in 2 Timothy ch. 3 vs.14-17, 'But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work', ('infancy' for me speaking about after I was born again). I am only responsible for what the Lord is speaking to me about and telling me to do, and I will continue to try to obey Him no matter what. What you do in your life Jerry regarding what you believe is stemming from your relationship with God and what you write, as with everyone,is for you to do in obedience to what you believe He is saying. There is only One Master builder, all others to be used in building His house are merely the stones used ( that is not to say 'bricks' ).

June 02, 2013 5:29 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

I am really sorry that you took that as being argumentative, my dear Brenda. For I was just given some more to add for the benefit of all concerned. For there are many who have been lead to believe that our Heavenly Father will only speak what is now contained in His Holy Bible, and that this applies to forevermore.

Be assured that what was added does not contradict what you have said about everything He speaks to us is confirmed by Scripture. There is, however, so much more that we could be hearing if it was better understood that the Lord God Almighty’s words are not limited to just what He had placed into written form long ago, nor is His personal revelations limited to just matters of what we would naturally consider to be of a spiritual nature. For He truly cares for us to a much greater extent than what we can come even close to naturally comprehending, and this involves Him offering guidance on every aspect of our daily lives—even to the extent of offering suggestions on such supposedly mundane things as what to fix for dinner, what is wrong with the car and where something is at. Of course, it can be argued that those things are handled by His Holy angels, but since they will only do and say what He directs them to, it would do us well to give our Heavenly Father full credit for everything good about our lives.

June 03, 2013 2:32 AM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

Yes Jerry, I know absolutely that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose, and I have seen many things in my life that I know have been brought about by God, including where I am living right now, but that is another story. However, I do believe that the Lord encourages us to build one another up, not tear one another apart. We each have a testimony of the presence of the Lord in our lives, and each have a calling, but each one is different, yet should be all one in Christ Jesus. I think I had better thank Paul for putting up with this debate on his blog. I must say that in a way I have enjoyed it as I love discussing the scriptures. I think that most of the 98 or so comments must have been our discussion. Thank you for your patience Paul.

June 03, 2013 4:11 AM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

Very well put, my dear Brenda.

June 03, 2013 10:03 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

I'm sorry for my absence, circumstances took me away for a few days, also in the next few days I have to go to Europe, to Hungary for business and after to Switzerland and Germany to see my brothers and sisters and also to show my wife around some places in Europe till about the 20 July.

Brenda, I do not believe in that statement 'once saved always saved', I can't see that it is taught in the Bible.
That suggests that a sinner can be saved by his or her will, and after they have met all the requirements and are considered saved they always will be saved and cannot lose their salvation again.

I believe that a person must be a son of God from the beginning, and at the cross the Lord Jesus has died for His children's sins they have committed, and then at the appropriate time He caused them to be born again, that is because the sons of God MUST be revealed, or made known to this evil and wicked world.

Adams sons are us! all those who are born again, we are the sons of God revealed, sons, providing we have the same Father Jesus Christ just as Adam had, and the sacrifice we bring is praise to Jesus Christ, unlike Abel's sacrifice or the sacrifice of the Israelites.


Jerry, concerning salvation;
I know that you are not an Arminianist, but your thinking is.

If you believe that God wants to save ALL, (1Tim.2:4) meaning everybody, and you also know that not everybody is going to be saved, therefore it demands from you to believe that salvation depends upon the sinners WILL, and his CHOICE. And because you think that God does not override the sinners will and his choice and does not force salvation upon anyone, therefore it makes God to be in submission to the sinner.

Because of the free will the sinner can say and has the right to say to God, 'I know that you really want to save me, but I have a free will, therefore I will not 'ALLOW' you to save me.'
The free will in the salvation doctrine is called the sovereignty of man, it teaches that the Lord is in subjection to man's will.

In any Biblical doctrines, debates or ideas, I always like to deal with its roots, if the outcome is not right or does not sound right, then most likely the problem is in the roots. If I see oranges hanging of a so called apple tree, I know that the root stock is an orange tree, no matter how cleverly we try to explain and amalgamate the similarities.

Well brother, I also believe that a man of God cannot be 'WOEFULLY' deceived as you have said, deceived yes! But not woefully, that is because we are not the children of wrath, we are His beloved children, the saved going from glory to glory.

Brother Jerry, I won't be commenting till I'm back from Europe towards the end of July.
I will start with a new post, I think you might be interested to read. Explaining a two sided salvation demonstrated from the Scriptures, short and easily to understand.
Yes it will be controversial just like all of my posts, but surely something to consider and think about.

Again, I'm grateful to you and Brenda for your input and your explanations, thoughts etc. And I'm glad to know that you have a very good knowledge of the Scriptures.
Thanks Jerry for sharing your testimony from 20 years ago, I always like to hear the power of the Lord Jesus being manifested in anyone's salvation. This is the God I know, preach, teach and proclaim to the whole world Jesus Christ our wonderful Lord and God and to Him alone be glory honour and praise.
Kind regards
Paul

June 04, 2013 9:42 PM   Edit
Blogger Jerry E Beuterbaugh said...

I hope your trip proves most rewarding, my dear Paul, and I look forward to your next post.

June 04, 2013 11:54 PM   Edit
Blogger Brenda said...

I must do whatever the Lord tells me to do and if we do not fully agree with one another, the Lord knows what He is doing with each one. That is all that matters. Enjoy your trip Paul, you and your wife.

June 05, 2013 12:38 AM   Edit
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June 18, 2013 4:33 AM   Edit
Blogger Tim said...

Interesting post. I enjoyed reading it and looking up scripture while I was reading. I have certain issues and I will outline them as we go.

Paul said:In the beginning there was only God and He made the serpent (Gen. 1:25) in the image of the beast and not in the image of God, the serpent was different to all other beasts of the field (Gen. 3:1) and he was a male.
Before man was created God said, "let 'US' make man in 'OUR' image in 'OUR' likeness", referring to Himself and the beast the serpent (Gen. 1:26).
Afterwards God created the first man Adam in His own image , male and female He created them (Gen. 1:27).


Would that mean that the beast and Christ were of the same image? Is the beast also a created being or is He like Christ who is eternal? To me, if the serpent was made in the image of the beast then the beast would have to be "like" Christ. If they have the same image then they are the same in likeness. But if the beast was created as well then he surely would not have the likeness of Christ, thereby negating "our" likeness.

Paul said:Then the serpent who is in the image of the beast seduced Eve (Gen.3;1) to bear his son Cain through Eve who was in Gods image (Gen. 3:14+15) and thus sin has entered into man and Gods perfect creation of man in Gods likeness was polluted by the likeness of the beast.

Scripture does not use this language though. To say the serpent seduced her in the way you are implying is saying way more than what scripture says. If the language is implying sexual seduction scripture would then also be implying that then Eve seduced Adam since she gave him the fruit of the tree. But why would Adam allow this? He was there with her. She was his yet he allowed something to seduce her? Sin did not enter through Cain. It entered through Adam. Could you explain more?


Paul said: From here, all the troubles have started, because the DNA from the beast was mingled with the DNA of man, all the devils and demons, sickness and disease and every wickedness now had access into mankind.
Because God said 'US and 'OUR' in the beginning of the creation therefore it cannot relate to a feature time or event.


I have an issue with this as well but I think it ties into what I said in the first paragraph.

Thank you for taking time to show scritpure and revealing why you feel this way.

September 21, 2013 7:55 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Thanks Tim for your comment.
Tim, Christ is the Lord God who created Adam in His own image which means in His likeness, and all the animals were created in the image of animals (the beast).
But it is the mingling of the two images which is the sin of Eve and that is also called the fall of men.

Tim you should not give the beast a capital 'He', because he is not Deity but a created animal.

The Lord Jesus created Adam in His own image, Adam is the son of God (Luke 3;38) and his appearance was like a man (Jesus). But (Gen.1:26) said 'our likeness' meaning in TWO likeness, one is 'man' the other is 'animal'.
Yes Tim the Scriptures implies sexual seduction because you can not have children without sexual intercourse (seduction) (Gen. 3:14-15 and Gen. 3:4).

The tree of the knowledge is not a literal tree therefore 'eating' and 'fruit' is also not literal just like the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking but righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

You said, "But why would Adam allow this?"
Well my brother your guess is as good as my guess and I don't like to venture away from the Scriptures into speculation. A woman does what she wants regardless what you allow or not, she was deceived and very much deceived.
But I think that the Lord ordained Eve to commit this sin. Please read (Gen.2:17 NSB) "for in the day you eat from it you shall surely die." Indicating the 'day' that Adam the son of God (Luke 3:38) would die and that God would raise him back to life again through His death burial and resurrection from the dead.
Adam, Abraham, I and everyone who believes in Jesus knows that Jesus Christ is able to raise the dead by grace. But remember that the resurrection is only for the children of God through Adam and not for the children of Satan the Serpent through Cain.
Paul

September 21, 2013 9:38 PM   Edit
Blogger Tim said...

Paul,

I am enjoying hearing what you are saying.

Paul said:Christ is the Lord God who created Adam in His own image which means in His likeness, and all the animals were created in the image of animals (the beast).

When Elohim created They made man in Their image. I read somewhere where you said that Elohim (being pural) means that God was talking to the beast when He said in "our" image. If that was not you I apologize. But since the noun is God and Elohim is plural and IF He was talking about the beast being part of the "Us" the that is elevating the beast to God's almightiness.

Paul said:Tim you should not give the beast a capital 'He', because he is not Deity but a created animal.

That was a typo on my part. But as stated above if the beast is not a deity then how could he have been there at the time of creation? Only God is eternal. Does this suggest that the beast is eternal as well?

Paul said: The Lord Jesus created Adam in His own image, Adam is the son of God (Luke 3;38) and his appearance was like a man (Jesus). But (Gen.1:26) said 'our likeness' meaning in TWO likeness, one is 'man' the other is 'animal'.

That is what I was referring to earlier. Was the beast (animal) in heaven during the creation? "Our image" suggests oneness. If it said "our images" then I could see separation. My belief here is that it is Jesus talking to YHWH (to keep the personnas distinct) and the Holy Spirit.

Paul said: Yes Tim the Scriptures implies sexual seduction because you can not have children without sexual intercourse (seduction) (Gen. 3:14-15 and Gen. 3:4).

Mary did...

But anyway, I think this implication is adding a little too much to the scripture here.

Paul said:The tree of the knowledge is not a literal tree therefore 'eating' and 'fruit' is also not literal just like the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking but righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.

This may be where our disagreements start. I see the Scripture as literal as possible. If it prophetic, poetic, or parable, then it is obvious metaphor but the Word of God is literal. If it is not then it is open to interpretation to the extreme and that is where we get other "religions".

Paul said:You said, "But why would Adam allow this?"
Well my brother your guess is as good as my guess and I don't like to venture away from the Scriptures into speculation.


You understand that you have ventured into speculation? As I stated above and as you have stated, "Yes Tim the Scriptures implies sexual seduction".


Paul said: But I think that the Lord ordained Eve to commit this sin. Please read (Gen.2:17 NSB) "for in the day you eat from it you shall surely die." Indicating the 'day' that Adam the son of God (Luke 3:38) would die and that God would raise him back to life again through His death burial and resurrection from the dead.
Adam, Abraham, I and everyone who believes in Jesus knows that Jesus Christ is able to raise the dead by grace. But remember that the resurrection is only for the children of God


That part I believe but not through "Adam" per se but through Christ.

Thank you for allowing me to comment. Jesus is KING!

September 22, 2013 1:19 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Brother Tim.
Most things of the Scriptures are always plain and simple.

You said, "When Elohim created They made man in Their image".
No Tim, there is not such a group of gods who are called 'Elohim' who created man in their image.

There is only one God and that is Jesus Christ and He alone created Adam and Eve in His own image (Gen.1:27 and 5:1-2). After Abel was murdered by his halve brother Cain who was born of the evil one (1 John 3:12) Adam wanted a son who was in his likeness (that is in Adams likeness who was in the likeness of God) so he had Seth (Gen. 5:3) in place of Able (Gen. 4:25).

In Genesis God which is the Lord Jesus Christ is referred to as 'HE'.
Jesus Christ and the Serpent is referred to as 'US'.
First, the Lord created the Serpent (Gen.1:25) and then the Lord said 'let US make man in our image and in our likeness' referring to Himself and the Serpent He had created.
After He said that, God first created His son who is in His own image (Gen.1:27) (note singular).
Later the Serpent caused his son to be born through Eve (Cain) (Gen. 3:14) who was in the likeness of his father the Serpent.
The Serpents children are in (Gen. 4:17-23) and Gods children in (Gen.5:1-32).

No brother, the beast is not eternal, he is an animal created for the purpose to cause the perfect man 'Adam' to die.

And no! Our image does no suggest 'oneness', 'our' is always plural, meaning many.
And the Lord Jesus does not talk to YHWH, that is because the Lord Jesus is the YHWH.

Yes I also speculate just as we all do at times, but we must trust and rely on the Scriptures and the Spirit of the Lord.

Amen brother, Jesus is KING! Actually He is a lot better
He is the KING of Kings !! :-)

Lots of brotherly kindness
Paul

September 23, 2013 12:10 AM   Edit
Blogger Tim said...

No Elohim? Is the Hebrew translation incorrect? It's the third word in the Torah.

"Bereshit Bara Elohim Et Hashamayim Ve'Et Ha'Aretz."

In the beginning, out of nothing, God (plural) created the heavens and the earth.

If we disagree here then I am afraid the conversation we are having wil be moot.

He is King of Kings!

September 23, 2013 5:10 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Brother Tim, the Scriptures are not Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek but Spirit and truth.

In the beginning there were no plural identities called 'Elohim' who created everything.

In the beginning it was the Lord Jesus Christ who created ALL things for Him, by Him, and through Him and nothing came into being apart from Him.

In the Old Testament He was called 'GOD' or 'LORD' and nobody knew His Name because His Name had not been given till the New Testament in Luke 1:31 and from then on all creation knew His Name, the only Name He ever had and ever will have.
And at that Name every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty to the glory of God the Father.

September 24, 2013 11:07 PM   Edit
Blogger Tim said...

If that is the case then Jesus is not His name because that is Greek. So you still do not know His name.

Of course you do. I was just pointing out that language is important. Although all scripture is God-breathed and of the Spirit, it is written for us.

Hebrew---Y'shua
Latin---Iesus

And who is God the Father? Why was that added? Why not just "God"?

September 25, 2013 5:34 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Amen brother!
It's good that we both agree that the Scripture is God breathed and understood by the Holy Spirit which we have received.

You said, "And who is God the Father? Why was that added? Why not just 'God'?"

God the Father is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the Lord, means that Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty and that glory belongs to His title 'GOD the FATHER'.

September 25, 2013 11:05 PM   Edit
Blogger Tim said...

If I was reading that for the first time in my life it would sound a little double-talkish.

Jesus is God , God is the father, thereby Jesus is the father and that is why He says father since He is Jesus.

I know that is not what you said. But that is what it sounded like when I read it. I know what you are trying to say but it didn't really clear anything up.

If you are saying that Jesus reveals Himself in three different ways such as he is our father, and he is our redeemer, and he is our guide but His only true name is Jesus, then I can agree with most of that, perhaps up to 99% wise.

September 27, 2013 10:36 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

No Tim, I would never say that.
Remember, I always close the back-door so to speak. Therefore I say that Jesus Christ 'IS' the Father! He does not reveal another person called 'Father' (Isa. 9:6).
Jesus does not reveal another person called 'God', but rather Jesus Christ 'IS' God, 'the ONLY GOD!' (Jude 1:25).
Jesus Christ does not reveal another person called 'Holy Spirit', that is because He 'IS' the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 3:17), or the Holy Spirit clothed in flesh.

Perhaps you might be able to see that there is no possibility for another identity to sneak in through the back-door and also proclaiming himself to be a 'God' next to Jesus Christ and taking the title 'Father'.

September 28, 2013 11:59 PM   Edit
Blogger Laurie Collett said...

Only God is capable of creation. Why, then, would be confer with Satan about creation, as Satan himself was a created being? Evidence for the Trinity in Scripture is plentiful, as I discussed in several of my posts, e.g. http://savedbygracebiblestudy.blogspot.com/2012/06/gods-nature-attributes-of-trinity.html
A clear picture of all three Persons of the Trinity is in Luke 3:22: And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him {Jesus], and a voice came from heaven [Father], which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

October 08, 2013 2:26 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Thanks Laurie for your comment.

Yes you are right, only God is capable of creation, but that is 'out of nothing'.

After creation we all can create but not out of nothing, only out of something.
A man and a woman can create children in their likeness, any individual can create a great master painting or nuclear bomb etc. but all that is out of 'something'.

After the Serpent was created God said "let US make man in OUR image". And then God created Adam and Eve in His likeness, and after that the Serpent made or created his son Cane in his likeness or more accurate in man and the beast's likeness, that is because the Serpent seduced Eve to bear his son. Eve is in Gods likeness and the Serpent is in the beasts likeness, plural 'two likeness', therefore Eve became the mother of all living.

Laurie, your Trinity posts and explanations of the Scriptures are not true, they are an offence to our Lord and God Jesus Christ.
You have bought into the biggest lie Satan has ever produced. Because you believe that God is three persons, therefore you are transgressing the first and foremost of all the commandments, 'the Lord thy God is ONE' and not three and 'you shall have no other god or god-persons beside the Lord your God'.
That is a serious charge, you should look into that and do not despise the correction of the Lord.

There is absolutely no evidence for a Trinity in the entire Bible, to the contrary all the Scriptures point to a single God and that is to Jesus Christ our Lord.

(Luke 3:22) is not a clear picture of three persons as you have said. A dove is not a person but a bird. There was only one person standing in the water the Lord Jesus Christ and He 'IS' the Holy Spirit (2 Cor.3:17), and the voice from heaven is the Holy Spirit speaking to John, you and me and everyone who believes that on whom we see the Holy Spirit remain is the ONE we ought to proclaim to be our Lord and only God (Jude 1:25).

October 08, 2013 11:41 PM   Edit
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Concerning the Christian view of the Trinity, I posted this question on Yahoo Answers a couple of years ago:


C H R I S T I A N S : What is your definition of a Christian ??

I'm a Christian, but I'm not the average/typical regular church-going-Christian, and I often say, that I wouldn't be able to spot another Christian even if I tripped over one.


Today I asked a question about Existence and the Meaning of Life, and referred to Space, Matter, and Time:
1. Space, Matter, Time - all three together as One, none can exist without the other/s, so all three must have already existed before we were created.
2. Space, Matter, Time - the Universe
3. Space, Matter, Time - I think this also explains the Trinity or Triunity.

The response: in one answer I was told other Christians would not "see it my way" and I was called a "Pantheist". . .

As individuals I don't think it's even possible for all Christians to see things exactly the same way.
Is there a Stereotype when it comes to Christians ?

I think ultimately the truth is deep inside each one of us, and that is what should define us.

Do you agree/disagree ?

What is your definition of a Christian ?


Asked by RICOCHETaka SC

October 21, 2013 3:24 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Thanks Anonymous (RICOCHETaka SC) for your comment and explanation.

Obviously you have given a lot of thought to that. And don't worry what people call you, it is more important what the Lord Jesus is calling you.

"The definition of a Christian?"
In my opinion and I think it's reliable and trustworthy.
A Christian is a person who is born again by the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ. That means that the Holy Spirit has made His abode in that person and they love the Lord Jesus and speak favourably of Him.
It's that simple!

Their lives might be in a mess and they might live like the world with weird doctrines and ideas, but they always love the Lord Jesus Christ. I mean the Lord Jesus Christ and not 'God', since loving God is a big concept and it means different things to different people.
Muslims love God, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics and all religious people love God, but that is no indication that they are Christians (the redeemed). Remember the devil calls himself a Christian, therefore the title 'Christian' is a broad statement and it doesn't mean much to me. Perhaps 'disciple' is a better title or description for us who are born again.

So then, next time when you are tripping over one of those little ones who loves the Lord Jesus Christ, please take time to help them along to navigate through the wilderness of this evil and wicked world, as all of us need help at times, especially when we have taken the wrong turn and have gone astray.

Concerning the Trinity.
The Trinity states that God is three persons in one God.
Perhaps you have been singing in Church the song 'God in three persons blessed Trinity', here you can see that all believe that God is three people. If God is three persons and each person is God then you worship three gods. Keep in mind that the word 'God' supposed to be the title of ONE person Jesus Christ our Lord.

You also have used the word "Triunity", which is the same, it means three persons who are in unity together, and God is certainly not in unity with anyone else.
You said, "the truth is deep inside each one of us".
To the contrary, deep inside all of us is every evil under the sun, lying, stealing, murder, adultery, fornication, gossip, slander and whatever else which is evil. Just read my post again, I clearly have demonstrated how that evil has entered mankind.
Jesus said that the human heart is above else DESPERATELY sick and deceitful, who can know it (Jer. 17:9 and Gen.8:21).
The Truth is outside of us, the Truth is Jesus Christ (John 14:6), the Truth was hanging on the cross for the sin of Adam and for all of our sins, the Truth is the one who has given me a new life and made Himself known to me, His Name is 'JESUS' my only Lord and God (Jude 1:25).
Paul

October 22, 2013 9:40 PM   Edit
Blogger Tim said...

In Chapter 11 verse 7, God said let us go down and confound their language. Who would the "us" be in that verse?

March 08, 2014 7:23 AM   Edit
Blogger Steve Finnell said...

WHY WERE DENOMINATIONS CREATED? BY STEVE FINNELL

Were denominations created so they could teach the apostles doctrine? No they were not.

Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.(NKJV)

The Roman Catholic denomination was established so it could teach the doctrine of popes, cardinals, the doctrine of the Roman Catholic denomination.

The Lutheran denomination was formed so they could teach the doctrine of Martin Luther.

The Baptist denominations were brought into existence so they could teach the doctrine of John Calvin and that of Baptist preachers.

Denominations were formed so they could teach doctrines contrary the doctrine of the apostles.

Can you name one denomination that teaches the terms for pardon that the apostle Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost?(Acts 2:22-41 ......40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them,)(NKJV)

Peter did not preach. .1 Salvation by good works. 2. Salvation by Law keeping. 3. Salvation by grace alone. Salvation by faith only. 5. Salvation by saying the Sinner's Prayer.

Peter preached. 1. Faith; John 3:16. 2. Confession; Romans 10:9. 3. Repentance; Acts 2:38. 4. Water Baptism; Acts 2:38.
Peter preached the apostles doctrine.

Denominations were created to teach and preach the doctrines of men.

Mark 7:5-13......"making the word of God of no effect through your traditions which you have handed down. And many such things you do."(NKJV)

Denominations were created to teach the traditions of men.

If all believers in Christ taught the apostles doctrine, found in the New Testament Scriptures, there would be no denominations.



YOU ARE INVITED TO FOLLOW MY BLOG. http://steve-finnell.blogspot.com

September 22, 2014 12:44 AM   Edit

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