Jesus loves Osama?
A ridiculous Baptist church in Sydney Australia has a sign up reading:
Jesus Loves Osama
Stating: "The Bible says God loves everyone — even Osama bin Laden is included in that. All we are doing is sharing the gospel."
----
May I ask what gospel message is this group sharing? Answer the gospel of catholicism or universalism ("everyone in the universe")
Questions to ask yourself:
1. If Jesus really loves Osama wouldn't he save Him?
2. If the love of your god says he loves Osama but leaves him die in his sin. Is this love of any use at all?
3. What Father would not save a child he loves from impending doom?
A sign like this shows just how far from the gospel these "church businesses" have departed.
the Video
Jesus Loves Osama
Stating: "The Bible says God loves everyone — even Osama bin Laden is included in that. All we are doing is sharing the gospel."
----
May I ask what gospel message is this group sharing? Answer the gospel of catholicism or universalism ("everyone in the universe")
Questions to ask yourself:
1. If Jesus really loves Osama wouldn't he save Him?
2. If the love of your god says he loves Osama but leaves him die in his sin. Is this love of any use at all?
3. What Father would not save a child he loves from impending doom?
A sign like this shows just how far from the gospel these "church businesses" have departed.
the Video
Add Your Comment(53)
Jesus loves Osama?Posted by Correy Thursday, February 01, 2007
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
53 Comments:
Puritan belief:
I think they read the Koran and not the Bible.
There are thousands of Churches who believe this lie.
It is a shame how far the Churches have departed from the Lord Jesus.
Universal love is the seduction of the modern day Church.
Eph. 3:18+19
It is important to grasp and understand the love of Jesus witch surpasses knowledge.
His love is NOT universal love.
Ok then!
I will try to explain the difference between universal love and Gods love.
First universal love:
They say that God loves every human being on this planet equally with an agape love.
(Agape) means unconditional love, a love which has no condition attached to, whether they are liars, thieves, adulterers, murderers, homosexuals, etc.
God loves them all the same “agape”, save their depravity.
They say God loves the sinner but hates their sin.
This is unscriptural and not true!
At this point, an interesting thought!
On judgment day, God throws into hell the sinner with their sin.
Gods love:
Gods love is different and superior.
The word “agape” is insufficient and incomplete, so I had to add another word to agape.
“Elective agape” love.
Gods love is directed only to the elect, by the exclusion of all others (non elect).
He loves ALL the elect and hates ALL the reprobates.
Psalm 5:5 Psalms 11:5 Rom. 9:13
Example:
A bride whose husband loves every woman he sees equally to her (universally), that love means absolutely nothing to her.
A bride whose husband only loves passionately the bride by the exclusion of ALL other woman, that love is especially powerful to the bride.
This is the love of our heavenly bridegroom for His Church (the bride of Christ.)
Remember it also works the other way around.
A Church or a person who loves Jesus and two other persons, (trinity) that love means nothing to Jesus.
If you do not believe me, why don’t you a ask Him!
Has He who made the mouth, can He not speak?
Would Jesus command Christians to do something He would/does not do?
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."
While Jesus unconditionally (none can ever earn) loves people He only saves those who are His children/elect/saints etc.
His Righteous judgement and damnation of those who are not saved does not mean He does not love them. Since He is perfectly Just He only will save the Elect. His love for the elect is different from the love for His enemies.
EG.
I Love my wife.
I love Pizza.
I love my children.
I love the beach.
I love Jesus.
I love fast cars.
All the word love, all very different connotations and meanings.
BTW you both suggesting that Jesus Hates Osama (based on the fact he is an islamic terrorist) flies in the face of Unconditional Election does it not? Did Jesus hate Saul/Paul because he persecuted and killed Christians? How do you know that Osama is not of the elect and will not be saved at some later stage of his life?
Did Jesus hate you when you were sinners?
Your erronous thinking is that "A bride whose husband loves every woman he sees equally to her (universally), that love means absolutely nothing to her." Jesus does not love all equally, this does not mean He does not love all or even most.
MDM
Modern day magi:
You said, would Jesus command Christians to do something He would /does not do?
Jesus said to Judas Iscariot, go and betray me. John 13:26+ 27
Jesus said unless you hate your Mother and Father etc. You can not be my disciple. Luke 14:26.
M.D.M: I have been telling the truth plain and simple, but what bothers me is that you do not agree with the truth.
I divided the truth from the lie or error. You’re working hard to amalgamate the truth with a lie, and call it a white lie.
And unite the one person God with two other persons (trinity).
Unite the sinful flesh of Mary with the spotless Christ.
And Gods love with mans adulteress love.
M.D.M. This is Catholicism at its best! May as well put up a sign next to Osama, Jesus loves PIZZA.
You are getting your spiritual food from the wrong Church, the Catholic Church.
Matt. 24:28 Jesus said, wherever a dead corpse is there the vultures will gather.
Translated, the vultures get their food from a corpse, or dead body.
The born again believers get their spiritual food from a living body, the body of Christ.
It would be better if the so called Christians would tell the truth to Osama and say! Osama! Jesus really hates you; all you can do is what you have learned from your Father Satan, which is lying, cheating, murder, etc. And Jesus has prepared a place in hell for you, where there is gnashing of teeth.
Of course you could not speak like that, because you do not believe that Gods love is elective as I have stated.
I have to admit, I love reading blogs as it really allows me to look into the people's writings and get a better understanding of different perspectives.
PB, I think you're really off on this.
Does Jesus love Osama?
Absolutely!
Aside from the fact that He loves all men, He also commands us that we love our enemies.
That's telling me that God not only loves Osama but He wants us to love Osama as much as He does.
To answer your questions, Jesus will save the ones who hear, believe, and obey Him.
He loves Osama but if Osama doesn't come to Jesus Christ and obey His commandments, He is not a friend of Christ. (Although Christ still loves Him).
Is it unloving to not save one you love?
I guess it depends on what you mean by "saved."
For me, Salvation is to spend an eternity with God worshipping Him and only Him.
If a person is not with God here on earth, He's not going to be with God in heaven.
It's not a question of God loving Osama. It's a question of Osama loving God.
Theden:
I say the same thing to you as I said to modern day magi.
I wish you would read your Bible and especially believe it.
The Bible is the decree of the Lord!
You are speaking always contrary to the Bible, like your Catholic Fathers who do not believe a word of the Bible, just like Osama.
You said: God loves all men.
Ps. 5:5+11:5 states clearly that He hates wicked Osama.
Rom. 9:13 states clearly that He hated Esau while still in the womb.
You said: He loves Osama but if Osama does not come to Jesus Christ and obey His commandments--.
Theden: Osama can not obey His commandments as little as you can.
And Osama can not come to Jesus, unless Jesus calls him.
Rom.3:11 there is no one who seeks God!
Do you think Osama would,or you?
It's not a question whether Osama loves Jesus,rather whether Jesus loves Osama.
Osama said and does believe in god, in the same god as you do.
This is not the god I believe in, I made that clear previously.
Question: do any of you have children? Let's say a man walked up to your 5-6 year old, tied them to a post and set them on fire. As you watched your tot scream in agony while the smell of burning flesh fills the air, this same man asks YOU to come into his house for dinner. Would you accept? Based on the posts here, it seems most of you would.
Let's face it: those that Jesus "does not love" are not just crazed killers like Osama. They're your friends, your family and many that are "close" to you. They all have more or less the same amount of virtue as you do.
Yet, you worship a god who is going to torture them not just for a day, not for a season, but for eternity.
So that this is what this all about ... as long as YOUR soul slides through the Pearly Gates, I guess nothing else really matters, right?
I don't expect this post to stay on too long cuz, well, most people really don't like their beliefs laid out in garish detail. Much better to cloak the real nastiness in pretty theological prose.
- James
Paul,
I do read my Bible and believe it.
I think it's interesting how you ignore HUGE tracts out of the Bible and bring out a couple lines to try to prove your point.
God does not hate. The use of the word hate in the Bible means to love less. God is not telling us to hate our parents as that would be a violation of the commandments and then the Scripture (and Christ) would be in error.
Quite honestly, I don't think we're in agreement as to what love is. So, can you please explain to me your definition of love? Because honestly, I don't quite see the point in continuing in this post until I can understand what you think love is.
If you don't feel like responding, that's fine too.
Dennis:
You said that you believe the Bible.
Why don’t you agree with the word of God, when the Lord said “Jacob I loved and Esau I hated”.
He did not say, Esau I loved less.
Love has the total exclusion of hate.
Hate has the total exclusion of love.
You are trying to amalgamate love and hate, and end up with the adulteress love. This is why you do not understand the love of God, because you think God loves just like you.
I do not ask you to be in agreement with me, I ask you to be in agreement with the truth, and abandon your sloppy love concept.
Paul G.
What is love?
Dennis:
1 Corinthians 13:4
You have not been answering anonymous (James)!
Because you know that he has been telling you, that your thinking and understanding on the love of God is a paradox and does not make any sense.
It would be good for you to have a good look at your spirituality, in the mirror of truth, to see whether you are in the faith 2Cor. 13:5.
Do not just believe what is right in your own eyes and your deceived leaders over you who cook up clever ideas to tickle your ears.
Remember Satan is the master of deception, and no one outside of Christ is immune to it.
Paul G, was your question directed towards me? I can't tell.
In any rate, I've noticed that the Jacob/Esau passage is a favorite among Calvinists (Fred Phelps is especially fond of it). Perhaps it's because they think it confirms their suspicion that they are among the "elect", not that Calvinists seem to wrestle over whether they are or not anyhow.
So let's talk about God's "love" then shall we (at least as it seems to be understood among our Calvinist friends)?
An all-powerful Being creates a race of entities called humans. Though He COULD create them within a system whereby each person is created in a state pleasing to Him, instead He chooses to institute a system whereby people inherit (biologically and spiritually), through no fault of their own, a state that He despises because someone they never met ate an apple 6,000+ years ago.
Oh, but it gets worse! Instead of saving everyone from their wretched condition, He decides to let the vast majority of humans that He intentionally created suffer (not for a week or a month, but FOREVER) by setting them on fire. These offenses range from truly nefarious acts such as thinking about sex to having incorrect thoughts about Him that He finds upsetting (such as that He's really three Beings or really one Being, depending on whom you ask). Perhaps someone neglected to flatter Him on a sufficiently regular basis. Who knows. All of these things make the very irritable Lord hopping mad, you see, and because these wretched people behave exactly as He knew they'd act and for which He provided no remedy, He's going to set them on fire and watch their heads blow up.
Yes, the Calvinist theology is really quite charming.
Ah, but our Calvinist friends remind us: man is WORTHY of such punishment! He DESERVES these things because of his degenerate state!
Really? Perhaps you all lack the imagination insufficient to really grasp what you are saying. Well, according to your beliefs, Jesus is going to desire something like the below link to be done to your friends and family who He "loves insufficiently" (or "hates", whatever): http://poetry.rotten.com/customs/
So it's not a burn victim, but put the face of someone you actually care about in that photo.
This isn't emotionalism, folks. It's called owning up to your beliefs.
If that's the God you worship, I guess I'm saying I don't know whether to pity you or just throw up.
- James
James,
Although I agree with your view on Calvinism, I think we may not see eye to eye on most things.
To answer your question, yes, I do have a child. But your view on tying her up to a post and burning her (or others I love) doesn't fly with me.
I would put it more like this: I love my daughter very much. I love her with all my heart. I want nothing but the best for her.
If throughout her life, she is disobedient to me, ignores me, and flat out wants me out of her life, I will always love her nonetheless.
However, when I die, it is within my rights to leave her out of my estate. It's not that I didn't love her. I always loved her; it's just my choice to not leave her inheritance.
Christ says as much in the Prodigal Son. The Prodigal Son leaves the father to go to a far away land and ends up wallowing with pigs. When he returns, his father RUNS OUT to meet him and throws him a party.
If that son were to die in that far away land, he would be far from home and away from his father.
That's what Osama is--now (and all who are away from God). They are in a far away land far from God. If they die in that state, they die without God.
God wants them to return home and be with Him. God wants to throw them a feast. God wants all men to be saved. (1 Timothy 2:4)
Paul,
1 Corinthians 13:4 does not define Love. It's Love's attributes.
What is Love?
God is Love. (1 John 4: 8)
To love someone (Agape) is to bring them to God.
James talks about people you love who are left outside (burning) while you have dinner with Christ. If you love them, you invite them in for dinner for you do not want them to burn.
To love God is to know God because God is Love (1 John 4:8). God cannot hate because He is Love and by definition cannot hate.
And to love others is to bring God to them. Christ (God the Son) loves us because through His death and Resurrection, He allows us access to God (the Father).
Sorry...the Trinity exists. Why?
Because God is Love.
Since the beginning of time, there was God the Father and God the Son. Why? Because God is Love and without God the Son, God the Father cannot love. Through their love comes forth God the Holy Spirit.
All One God in Three Persons since the beginning of time.
Paul, I love you and I want you to join in that feast.
James:
Do you personally think a God exists at all?
God loves Osama can be the same as God loves you. Osama and you can be easily replaced by any other name. Because any other name that you put in there will still make that comment right to me. And God loves every sinner. Since you think that Osama is bad person, would a comment like saying "the Devil loves Osama?" make it a more right because it doesn't. The devil does not know anything about love to give but God do. God is about love, Jesus died for us because of His love.
God love us all equally and unconditional. God is creator of all things. The verse in Timothy says that God sent Jesus specifically for the lost sheep and the sinners.
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Also says in Luke:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
As far as what the comment say “God loves Osama” is a pure product of how God loves his children. The way he would love you is the same as he love me. But as far adding more meaning to words to fit your own personal view is totally un-call for.
Mark 2:17… “I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Just because the message say "God loves osama" doesn't mean God condone his action or what ever sin he had made. No it has nothing to do with that but all to do with how God is being Holy and just. He loved us that he even sent his only Son Christ Jesus because of our sins. It can be very easy for People to look at the sign and see 2 different views from it but that is where we can put more of the attention. We should be more careful about what we say.
The thing is, if we were to start making comments like “no God does not loves Osama”, is like saying that there is a big chance too that God will not love you too. There is no such thing as little sin versus the bigger one. Sins are sins and we are all sinners. If you can look at it in that way, Osama is not that different from us, he is a sinner. But one thing we can do is to trust God and His will and not in what we think or decide God most likely wants.
I am actually hesitating saying something, that I believe this to be very sensitive subject and we are crossing troubled waters here.
Ms Elove:
I am not sure that we have the same definition of love.
The love you speak of is a different type of love to the love I understand and have experienced.
I think I will have to write a post on what love is. Without a definition it is very hard for this discussion to go anywhere.
You did bring up a good point I would like to highlight:
"The thing is, if we were to start making comments like “no God does not loves Osama”, is like saying that there is a big chance too that God will not love you too."
Now lets say you are wrong and their is a God who hates not only the sin but also the sinner so much so that he casts the sinner and his sin into hell.
If there is a God who does this I would want to know for sure from this God if I am either hated by Him or loved by Him. I would want to hear from Him personally the answer. I would not stop until I got an answer.
James:
Osama and Mr Phelps aside it would be good if you could answer the question just so I know where you are coming from.
Anonymous James;
I really can tell that you do not know God!
It would be good for you to find out whether there is a God, and who it is?
Whether He is three beings or one being as you said and the purpose of His creation?
You do not know the truth, because you don’t read the Bible and Jesus did not make Himself known to you.
I don’t know where you get your apple story from? Surely not from the Bible, then it must be from the Catholic Church.
Who do you think causes a man to be sick and healthy, poor and rich? 1sam. 2:6+7 Isa. 45::7
Who causes a man to be riddled with plagues and diseases?
Who do you think destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities?
Or created a place of torment for the wicked and all those who do not know God? 2 Thes. 1:8
Surely as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand, says the Lord. Isa. 14:24
It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb. 10:31
I tell you a secret;
This is how you can see the Majesty and the Glory of the Lord!
He utterly destroys the wicked in front of your eyes and you can not even see it.
Theden:
Jesus has not granted you to believe and understand. So then you will believe in your lying and deceiving Popes and Bishops over you.
There are only the children of Satan and the children of God.
Jesus came only to save the children of God, and to punish the children of Satan.
Jesus loves only His children, and died only for them.
Satan’s children they will be judged for their sins and condemned.
Satan’s children also want to be saved, but on their terms and condition, by their god and father.
Salvation and judgment is compared to ‘love and hate.’
The prodigal son is the son of his father, he returned to his father, not to another father.
The same as the children of Christ, Jesus saves only His children and not those of another father.
Theden: this is your statement!
“Since the beginning of time, there was God the Father and God the Son. Why? Because God is love and without God the Son, God the Father cannot love. Through their love comes forth God the Holy Spirit.”
PLEASE every body read this again!
Wow! Theden
You have forgotten God the Mother.
Perhaps God the Father did not need God the Mother to bring forth God the Holy Spirit, because they had God the Son.
Surely this must be a happy family of gods.
I hope all you TRINITARIANS can see the abomination of your trinity gods and teaching.
The Lord Jesus Christ rebukes you!
Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20
Jesus Christ is God over all forever. Rom. 9:5
Ms elove:
Osama is not only a bad person; he is an evil person, a son of the devil.
Yes Jesus came for the lost sheep only, and not for the wolves.
The sheep belong to Jesus, and the wolves belong to Satan.
Jesus loves the sheep and hates the wolves, this is why He utterly destroys the wolves.
Osama might not be different from you, but he is very different from me.
Paul G states: "This is how you can see the Majesty and the Glory of the Lord! He utterly destroys the wicked in front of your eyes and you can not even see it."
Yes, your God certainly does! However, He doesn't just destroy the "wicked", oh no!
Hosea 9:11-16 "Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb."
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the "their women with child shall be ripped up". Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
I could go on and on but I think you get the point. Your Scripture points out many instances of God taking vengeance on infants in the womb.
Please tell me, Paul G, what can so offend a "good" Supreme Being as to merit ripping a child to pieces?
Just because you worship a Supreme Fiend, a Being that is merely a projection of your own fanatical hatred of all of humankind, don't expect me to.
- James
James,
Pulling a few lines out of context from Hosea shows that you’re not really understanding the whole story. At the end of the story, God wants them to come back to Him. Coincidentally, the Hosea story ties in very well with the Prodigal Son where Israel (who is viewed as an unfaithful bride) is asked to repent. The whole story is a testament to God’s love and fidelity for us.
God is not a Supreme fiend. He loves you and asks that you love Him back.
Anonymous: (James)
Most people think like you do, that humans beings are basically good, they just manage sometime to do a bad thing.
The truth is the opposite,
Human beings are basically bad, sometime they manage to do a good thing, and that good thing is not as good as you think.
The Bible says they are totally depraved, desperately wicked and deceitful.
The (T ) of the TULIP total depravity of man.
They have gone astray from the womb; there is not one, who is good,
Except the Lord Jesus!
Your question;
What can so offend a good Supreme God as to destroy a child?
James, it is important to understand the fall of man. (“Genesis “)
So I ask you a question;
What was the sin of Eve, what sin did she do?
If you can tell me, then I will tell you why the Lord of creation hates and destroys the wicked.
Because I worship the living God, the Lord Jesus Christ, I do not expect you to do so, because you can not unless you are born again by the Spirit of God.
If you are not born again, then you will worship the Catholic god of this world, a god of your own making, and you might call him Jesus, but that is not the Jesus of the Bible.
PB made a post about that previously.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous:
Was off topic and not your own words.
Paul G: You might find the following article intriguing:
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html
- James
James:
I like it best when it is your own words.
Sorry, PB.
I got in a similar discussion elsewhere over the nature of God and how we define "goodness". Paul G seems to insist that I believe in a God of my own making by forcing Him to adhere to my own morality.
So here's my question. Everything God commands is good, whether or not we understand it, yes? Suppose He commanded you (I mean you in the general sense) to kill your 4-year old son by strapping him to a tree and then sticking a machete in his head while he stood there looking at you in terror. Would you do it? Why or why not? Would you believe that these "voices" were of God or of Satan himself?
Keep in mind that He DID ask this of Abraham, and Abraham was willing to do it. Sure, God pulled the plug at the last second, but maybe He wouldn't next time. (I don't see this story as a mandate against human sacrifice for all time, given my earlier examples of genocide.)
I'm sure that everyone here, whether cessationist or not, believes that God speaks to His believers today, right, via the promptings of the Holy Spirit, right?
So, how can you tell whether that voice commanding you to kill your child is of God or not? What you all seem to be telling me is that you cannot pin God down by forcing Him to our own brand of morality. Whatever He asks is good, period, and He has His own reasons.
So HOW, exactly, are we supposed to discern God's will when what God wills apparently shifts with the breeze? He may be asking something horrible, but oh well, it's just horrible to US because we are wretched creatures and don't know anything.
So what, in this scenario, would any of you do? If you're telling me that God wouldn't ask that of us, then you're imposing your view of morality upon Him. If you're telling me you WOULD do it, then, well, gosh, I guess I don't have much to say to that, do I?
- James
James:
I put a lot of effort in answering you in my lattest comment on the lattest post
I think this question is more directed towards Paul then me so I will only bring up one point.
A Christ-ian no matter what they do are in the Lords Will. I believe in a God who causes all things to happen and is in me to do and to will according to his good pleasure.
Because it is Jesus that is in me then this means it is me that is persecuted if it were the devil that was in me I would persecute murder etc etc.
James,
To answer your question, I think I have a different understanding of Scripture.
First of all, God's will doesn't change. Everything can be summed up by the Greatest Commandment, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength. From that commandment, you can understand the Abraham story.
God wanted to put Abraham to a test. Who did Abraham love more? His son, or God? So, God tested him. To understand this, you need to look back to Abel. Abel's sacrifice in Genesis 4 was "one of the best firstlings of his flock." God didn't say to kill him, God wanted him to offer up his son whom he loves to God as sacrifice.
Throughout the Bible, God is searching for men who love Him and are obedient to Him. He's looking for men who follow the Greatest Commandment. Abraham was one of those men.
Saying that, I love my child more than life. Honestly, if God said that to me, being honest, I would probably plead first and ask Him to take my life instead of hers because I would prefer her to live over me. To be honest with you, I trust in God that He won't ask me to do that.
To understand Abraham, you have to understand it's a test of his faith. It also points to Christ. (Warning: allusions to the Trinity)
God showed us through the test how much Abraham was willing to sacrifice his beloved son to show his love for God (but fortunately, God spared Abraham.) 1800 years later, on a hill not too far away from there, God sacrificed His beloved Son to show His love for us.
Now, God doesn't ask us to sacrifice our children. The sacrifice doesn't start there. God asks us to sacrifice our most beloved possession. Ourselves. We are called to die to Christ and to remain in Him.
James:
If there is a crowd of people, and there is a loud voice calling, James! Even though you can not see your Father, you know exactly that it is your Fathers voice, calling you by your name.
So it is with the children of God, they hear His voice and when anybody else calls, they do not go after them. John 10:4-5 + 27
I can see in all your writing, that you have so many presuppositions which are just not true.
James, you can NOT work it out, analyze and understand it by being on the outside.
You are wasting your time, so believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, believe not and you shall be damned!
Knowledge does NOT save!
There is only one person given, by which you must be saved Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus said, unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt.18:3
Theden:
Since you have a “Warning to the allusion to the Trinity”.
I must say, that you do not know what the greatest commandment of the Lord is?
Nor do you understand Abraham.
Do you think that the Lord my God did not know what Abraham would do? Even though He causes Abraham to do and to will for His own good pleasure.
And we are NOT called to “die to Christ”!
You have to read your Bible and not the catechism, because the catechism is the deception of the Antichrist your Pope.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paul,
If you don't think we've died to Christ then you must not understand what Romans 6 and Colossians 2: 12 are saying.
In regards to Abraham, of course He know what Abraham was going to do. Abraham still had to choose to do it. God didn't create robots that were programmed to do His will. He created human beings who make choices. God knows those choices in advance (as He knows all) but yet we still make the choices.
Also, I do understand what the greatest commandment is and try to live it to the fullest every day of my life.
I don't hate anyone. I don't spew vile at people.
I think you need to read how you're writing comes across. It's extremely antagonistic and won't bring any souls to God.
God is a God of love and you just really don't understand.
Theden:
The Bible does not say, we have to die TO Christ as you said, it says, “We have died WITH Christ.”
There is a big difference between the two; I don’t think I need to explain.
In regard to Abraham, he did not have a free will as you suggest. There is only one who has a free will, and that is Jesus.
As to the greatest commandment!
You have left off the most important section of the verse.
Mark 12:29 they asked Him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
Jesus said, “The most important one is this,
‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
If the Lord our God is one, then He is not three.
Theden, you are teaching the trinity lies of the Antichrist the Pope, that God is three persons.
The first person is God the father; All Popes usurp the position of the Holy Father, and demand that all his subjects call him Holy Father taking the place of God the Father and claiming himself to be God. 2 Thess. 2:4
When Jesus said “Holy Father” in John 17:11 He did not pray to the Pope, instead He forbids all believers to call anyone Father, especially Holy Father. Matt. 23:9
If I would lie to you like your Church does, then you would love me.
Because I tell you the truth! I am the stench of death in your nostrils, and a continuous pain in your neck, not only to you but to everyone who believes the Trinity.
For the same reason your Church murdered my brothers in Christ throughout the centuries.
Come out of this false Church so that you will not share in her sins and receive any of her plagues! Rev. 18:4
Paul,
You’re right…I meant died with Christ and die to self.
I’m not arguing with you about the rest of it.
Theden:
The things which I have said are weightier and more important than a fluffy understanding of love, which amounts to no love at all.
The eternal consequences for a man or a woman rest upon knowing Jesus.
Not a false Jesus who is one of three persons.
And this is eternal life that ye might know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. John 17:3
Don’t even think that God and Jesus Christ are two different persons, because the Lord our God is one.
When it says “one”, we have to know what one?
Everyone:
How can God have foreknowledge and know what is going to happen in the future?
How does God know what you will do and say?
1) Does He look into a crystal bowl, and sees what is going to happen in the future?
2) Does He read the tea leaves, or the tarot cards etc.?
What do you think?
Please tell me if you know.
The Lord is atemporal. He is Independent of time He is timeless. He created time. A watchmaker is not part of the watch. He does not need to look 'through time' to know what will happen, He can see the end from the begining.
MDM
Modern day magi;
Very good answer, but I am not totally happy with that.
How can He see the end from the beginning?
How is it possible for Him to see the end?
How does He know, when tomorrow your neighbor backs his car into yours?
Does He today see into the future what happens a thousand years later?
Paul,
As i said the Lord is outside time. He is not restricted by time at all. For creation time is as limiting as any of the other spacial dimensions. Height, width and depth. Time is a physical restraint for creation. We move through it one way (forwards) and look through it one way (backwards). God is not limited this way. He does not look 'through time' if you will but He looks 'at' time. Just as a person on the street sees only the cars passing them by, while the person in the traffic helicopter sees the whole street/block/city all at once.
THis is how Jesus, who was born in Bethlehem 200odd years ago has existed through all time. He is not constrained by it and though He was born at a specific time and lived on earth for a specific perion He has existed for all eternity. Eternity is not simply 'a lot' of time but it is the absence of the limitation of time altogether.
I think the point you are trying to make is the sovreighenity of God requires a deterministic creation, i.e. that God is the cause of all things which happen. I disagree with this. Jesus is soverign but he does not force all things to happen. E.g Jesus doesnt really care what breakfast cerial you eat, what shirt you wear, what car you drive, or how well you or your neighbour drive it. man does have a will and we can exercise it.
Our will cannot ever gain salvation though, that is the work of Grace alone, through Jesus Christ.
MDM
Modern day magi;
Your answer is still not satisfactory.
I know that you disagree with the point I am trying to make.
By the way, the Lord does really care about everything even cereals, shirts and cars.
He commands us to take special care about everything, even our words which we speak, how much more does He care about His creation.
I was looking for an answer which portrays God to be sovereign.
Like, the future has not yet happened.
Or, tomorrow has not yet happened.
It is the Lord who creates everything unfolding at present.
The only way God knows what is going to happen tomorrow is, He knows what He is going to create for tomorrow.
He can tell you the future because He knows exactly what He has planned to make in the future.
It is not that the future is already completed, and He looks from above at its completeness, and sees what is going to happen.
He is creating the future, “My word shall go forth and shall not return empty, it shall accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. Isa. 55:11
lets look at one example paul g,
The cross of Christ.
1) On the cross What did Jesus say to the criminal who honored Him?
2) In regards to the work of salvation, at what stage did Jesus say this work was?
1) He said "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Now the new earth has yet to be created, according to our time line that is. So 2000 years ago it was not created either. According to you understanding that the Lord creates everything as it happens could Jesus have said "today you will be with me in paradise." If He was in fact telling the truth and the new earth was not yet created?
2) Jesus said of redemption that "It is finished." So if your understanding is correct that all things are created in order as they happen could Jesus have said that redemption "is finished"? If so then no person born since then could be saved as all salvation was "finished." For you or I or any christian since calvary to have been saved, according to your 'as it happens creation' Jesus should have said "It is well on its way to being finished, and will be in 2000+ years." He did not say this. Redemption was completed on the cross once for all time.
How can this be?
Because the Lord is OUTSIDE time, not within it. He does not create 'as it happens' along a time line, we just view it that way.
Notice that this does not discount in any way the sovreigenity of the Lord.
MDM
Modern day magi;
I have read your comment a few times and I am not sure whether I understand you correctly.
Do you think that paradise is the new earth?
I do not hold that view!
When Jesus said, “It is finished” He was talking about Redemption, the reason He came into His creation to shed His blood as a ransom for many, not for everyone.
With other words, He paid the price for all the elect past, present and future, even though the future elect have not yet been born, or if you like’ created’.
The work for salvation is finished, completed by Jesus for everyone who is saved and will be saved.
Mdm. the Lord is not outside of time as you have said, He is within time. That’s why He could say, “My time has not yet come”!
Also the Lord is within His creation and not outside of His creation. That’s why Jesus is called the first born over all creation. Col.1:15
paul g,
Did time have a beginning?
Will time have an end?
Did our Lord God have a beginning?
Will He have an end?
MDM
Modern day magi;
Time does have a beginning and an end, (the Lords creation).
The Lord Jesus is God and has no beginning and no end, He is eternal.
When He was born into His creation, the son of man had a beginning, (the birth of Jesus) and He had an end, (at the cross).
Because He is the Lord God the almighty death could not hold Him and He rose again.
Question;
Where is He now?
paul g,
you answered well.
"Time does have a beginning and an end, (the Lords creation).
The Lord Jesus is God and has no beginning and no end, He is eternal."
Jesus who is God had no beginning and will have no end. Thus He is not limited by His creation which does have a beginning and which will end. Although He chose to enter His creation to reveal Himself to mankind He is still above, unlimited by, outside time.
you asked "Where is He (Jesus) now?"
He is omnipresent, all places at once. He is in heaven, in His place of glory. He is within the hearts of every believer.
Allow me to ask you this.
Suggesting that Jesus Hates Osama (based on the fact he is an islamic terrorist) flies in the face of Unconditional Election does it not? Did Jesus hate Saul/Paul because he persecuted and killed Christians? How do you know that Osama is not of the elect and will not be saved at some later stage of his life?
MDM
Modern day magi;
I like your answer, especially that Jesus lives in the heart of every believer.
It is exceptionally wonderful to know that the eternal God made His dwelling place in the heart of every believer.
Answer;
Jesus hates Osama just like Mother Theresa of Calcutta.
It matters not what Osama and Mother Theresa were doing, it matters WHO they are!
Jesus said that they are children of Satan, regardless of their deeds.
Saul was no different to Osama, Jesus hated Saul.
In order that God’s purpose in election might stand Rom.9:11.
Saul had to die with Christ and rise in the newness of life, to be born again a brand new man, with a new name PAUL.,
Saul could never enter heaven, only the new man Paul did.
Jesus loved Paul with an everlasting love and not Saul.
If Osama would be born again, perhaps he would be called ‘Hosama’ our brother in Christ.
So then what counts is the new birth and not a Religion or good deeds.
Magi & Paul:
I to agree that Magi answered the question where is Jesus now very well.
He is within the hearts of every believer.
Jesus says if I do not go the helper will not come.... and yes He did come in the hearts of the believer.
Paul you did answer Magis question very well. The answer is not Osama goes to hell because he is a terrorist or his deeds although he will be punished for this. He goes to hell because of who he is and that is a Son of his Father the devil.
Same as Bill Gates who is the most giving man monetry in the world. He has made a far greater impact on the poor then a million mother theresas.
He will not go to hell because of his enormous charity work. He will go to hell because he would not enter through the narrow Gate (pun intended).
Everything hinges on the new birth.
We go to heaven because of who we are in Christ, a new creation.
The Lord can not love a wicked man. But he can love us as the new man made of the seed of Jesus Christ.
TIME
Jesus did become a part of time and yes limit himself to time just like you would say he limits himself to righteousness and no wickedness can be found in him.
When Jesus made creation he started time and is still creating it he has not finished yet.
Jesus does not know the end from the beginning because he has already seen the movie. He knows the end because he will make it happen this way. Because he is the sole director. Every piece is layed out by him and nothing happens apart from Jesus.
The future has not happened yet.
SO you are saying His love is conditional.
"The Lord can not love a wicked man. But he can love us as the new man made of the seed of Jesus Christ."
He can only love AFTER the new birth. But aren't we called before we were knit in the womb, before we had done anything good or bad?
If Jesus only Loves AFTER the new birth then it is a superficial love and NOT agapae, or unconditional. It is not a Love of Grace that is unmerited but if your suggestion is correct then Jesus only Loves because we are righteous.
It was my understanding that we are made Righteous because He loved us.
MDM
Magi,
The answer was in both my comment and really plain in pauls comment here:
Saul was no different to Osama....[the answer]...
Modern day magi;
His love is unconditional only to the elect.
I have stated that very clearly.
It is as Puritan belief said!
“The Lord can not love a wicked man”, as it says in Psalm 5:5 and 11:5+6 “But He loves the new creation the new man born of the seed of Jesus Christ.”
Now the Lord has the power to create out of the same lump of clay a brand new man. He has the right to create one for destruction and another for salvation. (Election) Rom. 9
Jesus loves the new man with an everlasting love before creation, like I said, He hated murderous Saul, but He loved the new created Paul.
The agape love was only for Paul and not for Saul.
MDM. You said;
“It was my understanding that we are righteous because He loved us.”
If you say that God loves everybody, then He would have made everybody righteous, and that is just not true.
Perhaps you can see that there is no election in your teaching and understanding.
Any doctrine or teaching without election is universal (Catholic) and is not true.
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