True Love - The definitive guide
First let us rule out what love can not be. The bible makes this easy.LOVE NEVER FAILS
"Gods love never fails us but we can fail God"
It doesn't matter how it fails. If it fails then it is not True Love because Love NEVER fails. True Love always;
PROTECTS, TRUSTS, HOPES & PERSEVERES
but most of all:
LOVE NEVER FAILS
Conclusion
If you believe in a love that has failed even once. If just one person is in hell who was loved by your god then your god is not love. Love that fails is of no use to you or anyone else so it is a false love and a false gospel.
Love worth seeking is true love and it can be found in Jesus alone. For Jesus is Love and Jesus never fails those He loves. For we love Jesus for He first loved us.
Are you loved like this?
Add Your Comment(51)
True Love - The definitive guidePosted by Correy Monday, February 12, 2007
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
51 Comments:
An interesting post, PB, and I'm not sure how to approach it. If God "is Love" but, as you imply, doesn't love everyone, then His love discriminates based on whim (or luck, or cosmic chance). Thus, He is not love and the Scripture lies (if what you're suggesting is true). I think you're going to box yourself into a corner with this one (you just don't see it yet).
Here's another question: why is it that a Calvinist who believes so strongly in "election" is always convinced they are among the elect? There's no wrestling with whether they're going to "fall away" from the faith, no concerns over whether God has "led them to believe a lie" (as Scripture has said He has done to others) ... it's always "I am saved because I SAY I am saved". What reason is there to have such assurance exactly? After all, I don't see how one can "KNOW" they are among the elect until after they're dead.
You asked if I believe there's a God. My honest answer is that I don't know. I'm not opposed to the idea. I must say, however, His spokespeople need to come to some consensus about what to believe ABOUT Him! A certain Canadian street preacher turned on you very quickly for your beliefs in the Trinity, and while that dude is about as charming as a puddle of mud, he knows his Bible. A few posters here seem to have their own equally "certain" ideas about Him as well, backed up by their own favorite Bible quotes. Who are we to listen to exactly?
Try to put yourself in the reader's POV. There are a lot of conflicting beliefs out here.
- James
James,
From now on, I think I'm going to refer to that "certain Canadian street preacher" (who has banned me because he disagrees with me) as the "dude who's as charming as a puddle of mud."
BTW..."My honest answer is that I don't know." You're not fooling me. You may say that (and may even think it), but you have an opinion one way or another.
Peace...
James:
Firstly I agree with you on the instances in scripture and will even strengthen your argument by saying God commanded them to torture the animals as well as kill the women and children.
I am not going to make excuses for this other then to ask does not a perfect person have the right to destroy wickedness to show his hatred for it and the right to spare and forgive others to show his mercy?
Not all Calvinists believe they are among the elect.
Your favourite example Esau sought for repentance with tears but never got it. As did Judas who committed suicide and is in hell.
Assurance of salvation goes like this. You must be born again. When you are born into newness of life you will know because you will know who your Father/creator is. You will cry out on His name Jesus Christ. His love just for you will be spread abroad in your heart. This love is not imaginary and when it happens you will know.
Spokesman:
All believers do have the same spokesman/message they testify to Jesus Christ as Lord and God. (Not a cliche Lord and God)
You are not to listen to me you are to listen to Jesus. Unless you hear His voice scripture and the message of salvation will be foolishness and a disgusting story for you
theden: No, I'm actually being honest. At times I "feel" that there is a God and at times it even seems quite rational. At other times, I don't feel that way at all, and the universe feels cold and dark and random. The universe "behaves" as if there were no one guiding it. This is why I go to various blogs and read people's apologetics (on both sides) -- to see if there's something I'm missing, because I honestly don't know.
PB asks: "I am not going to make excuses for this other then to ask does not a perfect person have the right to destroy wickedness to show his hatred for it and the right to spare and forgive others to show his mercy?"
Are you saying that the OT prophets were "perfect"? I'm not sure this is actually supported by Scripture. Sure, some were considered "just", but it also states that "no one does what is right", so "just" may be only relatively speaking.
Back to this "love" thing, though. You state: "If just one person is in hell who was loved by your god then your god is not love"
PB, I'm sure you've heard of parents who love their children dearly, yet these same children return the parents' love with contempt or who, because of drugs or whatever, become something unrecognizable to their parents. Do their parents not still grieve over them? Of course they do!
It seems like you're saying that "If God really loves souls a, b and c, He will make 100% sure that these souls enter Heaven, with or without their consent." In fact, this does seem to be the Calvinist opinion, and I believe J. Edwards himself called this "the holy rape of the soul" (not my words). I'm not sure this is love, either, is it? After all, how can one love someone or something and at the same time deny that being its very freedom and will? This sounds more like that crazy guy in high school who wanted the cheerleader so bad he put a "love spell" on her after she rejected him. This isn't love, at least not in my understanding of it.
I'm fully aware of the intellectual dilemmas here, though. How can God supposedly "love" souls whom He permits to enter Hell? This question is the one side of the coin you're attempting to answer. The other is of course how can God "force" people into Heaven and still "love" them?
I'm not sure these are answerable questions, but I appreciate that someone is at least thinking about them.
- James
No I am not saying that the OT prophets were perfect? I was saying that the Lord must repay wickedness. He either does this by as you say killing wicked tribes/nations including the woman and children who are also wicked or By taking their place and paying their punishment with His death.
--
Jesus put it like this. If God were your Father you would love me.
Or if you like before someone is born again they are haters of God and lovers of self. When Jesus saves them though they do not seek Him and yes none are righteous not one. He gives them a new heart that loves Him.
There is no other way. God makes sure souls a b and c Love Him and enter heaven in this fashion.
100% success rate that never fails and is by definition LOVE.
Does he not have the right to show his hatred for sin by punishing some and His mercy by saving some?
Thanks for the dialogue, PB, I'm enjoying your perspectives on a day that I am snowed in! :-)
You state: "100% success rate that never fails and is by definition LOVE."
Again, I must use the parent/child analogy. No matter how much money some parents spend on their children's education, there is no guarantee that the child will not drop out and join the circus. I'm not sure what you mean by "success". I've been generous to some people, providing assistance to them when no one else would. It helped for a time, but a couple ended up going back to their old ways. Did this mean I didn't help them sufficiently? Should I have done more? Surely you've been good to and even loved some people who did not, for whatever reason, return that favor, yes? If you are human, you've experienced this. That is life. We can either clam up and love no one or hope that they respond in a positive manner.
You state: "God makes sure souls a b and c Love Him and enter heaven in this fashion."
Okay, let's say that this is so. Why the hassle of creating this difficult, painful world filled with illness, sufferings, disasters and all sorts of troubles merely so that He can drag a few souls into Heaven against their natural wills? Why bother creating all those people whom He does "not love"? Why not just create the "elect" as He wants them to be from the get-go and avoid the trouble of creating millions of others just to toss them into a flaming Hell? It can't be because He is in need of entertainment, I am certain. Certainly the "non-elect" are not better for having been born if they were never and will never be loved, right? Furthermore, what possible benefit is it to God for them having been created (who can need or desire nothing)? I just cannot wrap my mind around why such a fruitless and even misanthropic endeavor would be undertaken.
- James
James:
Australia as always is having fantastic weather at the moment you should live here.
Your parent child analogy is not comparing apples with apples I say this because it does not consider the new nature.
I am sure if you have noticed kids some kids have a placid nature willing to learn etc. Other kids no matter how good your intentions they are total brats they return your good intentions with bad ones no matter how hard you try.
Now what if you could change the nature of the bad child you would succeed wouldn't you.
The bible puts it like this:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
and again
"Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation."
Jesus is the ultimate Father in that he can make someone who was far from Him come to Him.
The lost sheep is from Jesus perspective and the prodigal Son is from mans perspective both the same story if you like.
Your other line of thought which is basically why do all this my reasoning would be along the lines.
From Gods perspective God wanted to be a Savior he wanted to become part of His creation and show parts of his character such as grace and mercy.
From our perspective i would put it like this have you been without water for ages. When you finally drink it you are rejoicing. Now if you go to the tap right now and drink some water I would not appreciate it at all.
Same as with Jesus we are the redeemed the ones that were as far away from Him as possible but Jesus bought us back and now we drink the living water which is Jesus.
love it, jesus is true love, jesus first loved us and showed us how to love. was thinking the other day even about those in marriage... read in eph or something marriage is not a place to stick up for your rights, but a place to serve the other... much like God he came and served us completely till death...he served us out of knowing who he is and where he had come from and who we are...his bride. When God gives us a revelation of who we are in him and who he is, we are free to love jesus and people like jesus has loved us. man i LOVE this topic!
Kellie, that's a Gospel I can understand. I know where I fall short in these areas. In the end, I have a hard time believing that when we die, we're going to be quizzed on heady theological concepts:
"Essay 1: Explain the difference between supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism. Incorrect answers result in eternal punishment"
Sadly, you think this would be the case when you talk to some!
- James
i totally agree james. when we die, we wont be quized on how much theology we know, but more its bout entering heaven based on relationship we have with jesus. how much he knows us...how much we know him and not from a text book, but from the inside...
Love is the fruit of his spirit in us - rom 5 :5 he has poured out his love into our hearts through the holy spirit which he has given us.
The more i stand on this promise, the more i see the fruit come ... i just want and need more revelation because without it its impossible for my eyes to open. :)
May God bless u james!
kellie
Kellie & James,
I too agree with you James it is not what you know it is who you know.
Therefore:
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ
PB, if you know the name of jesus christ like the back of your hand will this get you into heaven?
True love doesnt force itself on others...thats also in the corinthians passage.
so how does that correlate with love never fails? do we love God out of a free will or were we predestined to love him?
just a question from the top of my head, maybe i will figure it out later...
Kellie in terms of knowing the name of Jesus Christ like the back of your hand. Well I guess you would need to know the front of the hand as well :)
I don't think the Lord forces his love directly.
When we were haters of God instead of arguing with someone who hates Him forcing them to like Him He gave them a new will which loves Him. And from our perspective it doesn't seem like force.
A word which sums this up very well is called propitiation
PB, I don't think anyone is "given a new will", as if one day, *poof*! they all of a sudden love what they used to hate.
I think what happens is that people see things (sometimes reality, although not always so) in a different light then what they used to. They are given a different perspective. From there, they can make a choice about whether what they view as "good" is worth striving for or not. They must still make that effort of will.
One simple example I can give you is that I used to find being "selfish" a sort of natural thing to be and even "desirable". I never understood as a child why I should keep certain areas of the house clean just because it was important to my mother when it didn't matter to me. I didn't care if it was clean or not, and that's all that mattered. Eventually, I saw that this was a bit selfish and that whether it was important to me or not, it was something I needed to do.
This DID NOT mean that doing it was in itself easy or desirable always. There was still that element of "ugh, I hate doing this". But DOING it anyways was an exercise of my own will. It was the same effort I utilize when pushing myself in other areas of life, whether it's an extra few minutes on the treadmill or whatever.
I realize these aren't the best examples, but I think there's an analogy there.
- James
"i will not forget you! See, i have engraved you on the palms of My hands." Isaiah : 15 - 16
Wow, when i think about that i realize not only is my name on the front of his hands, but the work on the cross is there also...
James your right in that our perspective changes, the way we see things. right now im reading the gospels again and with new eyes im thinking, if this is true, what does it mean for me right now. Im taking it more seriously and its messin me up , all the old desires of having stuff, being someone...going somewhere...its all changing ... im looking for people with the sold out heart for God im reading about in the bible and its hard to meet them here in the city, in the church, seriously, where are all the christians!
James:
Since we are swapping examples let me use a pig and a cat.
If you put a cat into the mud what will it do?
If you clean a pig and put it in a clean house what will it do?
In your example you say well although I don't like doing it I do it because....
The pig and the cat example shows different natures. The cat may swim in the mud like a pig but it's whole nature hates that and the moment it is out of the mud it starts cleaning itself.
To become a christian I see it is that the whole nature of the man changes. From the nature of a pig to the nature of a cat if you like.
I would love for you to know this change first hand.
PB: Well, yes, I see what you're saying. The nature DOES change. Are you saying that change occurs instantaneously, though? I don't think it does. There would be no mandate in Scripture to "take up one's cross", otherwise.
It seems that one's nature changes as one chooses to put away the "old self", but that has to happen through a choice of will.
I think this is theologically and Scripturally sound. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think the "old man" becomes the "new man" through both grace and one's choice to respond to it. It seems to happen slowly and incrementally, not like an instant "cure".
That would be nice, but I've yet to see a new believer become a "different person" overnight.
- James
James:
Yes, that change occurs instantaneously, a person who has died with Christ and is born again, is a brand new man.
It is not like the Theologians say, that the old man turns into a new man, or is converted, or even conforms into a new man.
That would be like PB’s illustration of the pig who tries by its will to be converted into a cat by mimicking its behavior.
This kind of understanding is preached from most Pulpits.
Jesus speaks very strongly against that idea.
James, the new birth is experiential and not theoretical.
The cat is a cat experientially even though there are similarities to the pig.
It is impossible for the pig ever to become a cat.
The pig must die, and be born again a cat, and that cat is not a converted pig, it is a new creation, a cat.
James:
take up ones cross
The way I see this verse is perhaps opposite to you which highlights our differences in this debate.
The verse ends like this:
... for whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will save it.
We don't take up the cross to improve or save ourselves for the "old man" only ever does evil even when doing so called "good works".
We take up our cross so that we will die. So that the Pig nature in our example will be put to death for whatever dies with Christ will also be raised with Him.
To me this highlights the putting off of the sinful / pig nature in death and a spiritual change into the new nature which is done fully by Jesus which no man can do.
I am trying to point out that grace mixed with mans own choice and mans will is the type of grace I like to call "grace that is no longer grace"
To be frank this grace fails everyone eventually and could never be given to you by a god that loves you.
There are some things in life that you really need to get the best quality you can possibly obtain and anything less is a total waist of your time. Grace is one of them.
Pure grace will save you James so that you are left with nothing but to cry out Jesus thank you. To me everything else is a counterfeit.
In your closing statement you said you are yet to see a new christian do this overnight.
Well I have. To me you can always spot a new Christian. They have a love for the one who saved them, Jesus. They don't have faulty premises like God is 3 persons all they know and love is Jesus. Their conversation is flavoured with Him. They never boast that their will and choice made the difference for they know where they came from.
What happens, in my experience is that in churches today the truth is taught out of them in man made businesses called churches so much that the the mantra they learn overshadows the truth that saved them.... if this were possible :)
An interesting thought;
Any person can join any Church, belief or creed they choose to.
Example;
Any person can become a Muslim, Buddhist, Hare Krishna, Jehovah Witness, and Mormon, also Christian.
All by their will, they have to subscribe to that religion, doctrine (teaching) and practice them.
To be a disciple of Jesus, and a child of God in His kingdom and His Church, that is the only Church, faith and belief which you can NOT join by your own will.
Everyone in His Church is born again by the will of Jesus into His Church. They are the Elect, Chosen, Sanctified, Purified and Glorified children of God; everything is accomplished by Jesus and for Jesus.
I still dont see where the Lord crushes the will of the individual.
A reading of Genesis will show that mankind, in particular Adam was created for a simple purpose. To have fellowship with his creator. Once sin entered the world Adam's first act was to try and hide his sin to maintain that fellowship with God. He failed, mankind cannot fix our own sinfulness. The Lord had to spill blood to make a covering for Adam and Eve and then still punish the wickedness and bannish Adam and Eve to the wilderness.
We were created for fellowship with our Creator. While blinded by sin our desire is for ourselves, for our own indulgences. However, once our eyes are opened by His Holy Spirit to the complete work of atonement and salvation on the Cross where Jesus became sin and died, the sinner can then see what His true desire is. Repentance and worship of the Lord.
Spiritual blindness is much like physical blindness. If a blind person walks past a written sign saying "stop here for $100 cash" he will not stop. It is not for any reason other than he cannot see the free money, so he does not desire it. However, that same man, after surgery to restore his sight to perfect vision, will not walk past the free money. He will stop and collect. Not because he is different, apart from having the ability to see the sign.
See Acts 9 for the dramatic conversion of Saul/Paul. Pay close attention to verses 17-19 Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit and "Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again..." This is a physical example of what happens when one is 'born again'. The sacles fall from their eyes and they can see their Lord and God, their Creator. Their saviour Jesus Christ.
MDM
AS to why God choses some and not others, a better question would be why does He save any at all. There is not one who deserves salvation.
Now I have heard, in speaking with a friend (I am still undecided on the merits of this point), his version of why the Lord sends some to hell.
The Christian loves Jesus with all their mind, soul and strength. The non-Christian does not, the gospel is foolishness to him, and he hates God.
Now a loving and compassionate God, (among His many other attributes) sees the desire of all men's hearts. What they truley want.
The Christian wants eternity with the one who saved them, Jesus. This is granted through eternity in heaven, with the one they love.
Now the non-Christian hates Jesus, cannot stand to be in His light, they prefer darkness. Would it not in fact be cruel to send this person to heaven? To force them to spend eternity in the presence of the one they Hate. No a compassionate Lord, gives this person their desire, an eternity apart from God.
MDM
Modern day magi;
I have not once said, that the Lord crushes the will of any individual, (this is your terminology).
I say the Lord is the power behind you to will or not to will.
He causes you or anyone to do and to will as He chooses, Christians and non Christians alike.
MDM you said;
‘The Christian loves Jesus with all their mind, soul and strength. The non Christian does not, the gospel is foolishness to him, and he hates God”.
That is true.
The Bible says that every human being is a hater of God, 2 Tim. 3:2-5
Question;
Who causes the difference in the Christian to love God?
They too were haters of God like the rest of them.
Who opens the eyes of the Christian and closed the eyes of the reprobates?
You said; “God sees the desire of all men’s hearts, what they truly want”.
Answer;
The human heart is desperately wicked and deceitful who can know it. Jer: 17:9 and Gen. 8:21. All they really want is to tear God from His throne of glory and power, and seat themselves on it.
Just look around you and see the Popes, Cardinals, Bishops and all the Church leaders.
They are supposed to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and not full of their self-importance.
paul g,
Your mind and heart are really closed to the true Gospel.
Your message is a message of hate and draws people away from God.
Theden;
What true Gospel??
My message is the Lords message that will draw you away from your false gods who are three persons to the only true God and the Lord Jesus Christ who is God over all.
Hebrew 10: 31 it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I know that the fear of God is not in you, if it was then you would say ‘amen’ to that which I am saying.
Jesus said, “I came not to bring peace but a sword”. Matt. 10:34
He divides a father against the son, a believer against the unbeliever, the true Church against the false Church, the truth against the lie etc.
I know you don’t like to hear what I say, and that troubles me.
Paul G.
I don't like what you're saying because it is blasphemous. You have a preconceived notion and you pick lines out of the Bible to support it.
The Gospel is that God loves man and wants man to love Him back. He loved us so much that He sent His only Son into the world and offered Him up as a sacrifice to give man an opportunity to come back to Him.
That's not your gospel. Your gospel is not "good news" it's "bad news" and it's about a god who hates who wants to bring division to everyone. It's elitist and quite honestly doesn't even make sense. And you ignore 99% of the Bible to justify your point.
Quite honestly, I haven't really commented on this post much because it doesn't make that much sense to me. PB still hasn't given a definition of what love is. He just keeps saying that "Love never fails." Well, what is that???? The love that man has is an imperfect love. Why? Because we are imperfect.
If love never fails, then do I love my wife? If you asked her, I'm sure I have come up short in my expectations.
Do my parents love me? I know that they have been awfully angry with me at times. Does that mean they failed me and that they don't love me?
From PB's post, the only thing I can conclude is that love is God (as I concluded in the previous post). Because everything (except God) will fail. So, his post justifies my belief that God is love.
And as such He cannot hate.
Theden:
I am glad you commented like you did because I would like to discus this topic with you and was hoping that someone would bring the point about can a man love like you did.
Firstly you bought up marriage and asked me if you love your wife.
Statistically [most/a lot] marriages fail especially among [christians/catholics].
Therefore if a marriage ends in divorce would you say that there was "Love" for even one second between the couple?
My Answer: No, The couple lied to each other in their vowels, probably cheated and it didn't last.
But if you would have asked them at a high time at least one of them would have said that they were deeply in love with their spouse.
And to tell you the truth I believe that in their mind they think that they are deeply in love and there is nothing you could do to convince them otherwise.
Therefore they believe they are in "Love" But really this "feeling" or even the actions that they are expressing through "love" to the other person are in actual fact a counterfeit.
Now I would like to say that those who are not truly born again those who are not saved by the Love of God do not know Love.
If you can't say with certainty that you will be in heaven with Jesus when you die then you don't know what love is and any talk about this love the bible says will be a deadly stench to you.
For Jesus loves like this:
"having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end."
"but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you."
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love"
When I hear of something that never fails that hopes and trusts to the end no matter what the obstacle I think of Love.
The God I believe in loves his bride like this and when we the bride of Christ make a covenant with Jesus and Jesus says his vows over us "I have loved you with an everlasting you are mine. The moment Jesus makes this covenant with us we know what True love is for it was lavished upon us, all other love before this was counterfeit."
Have you been Loved like this by Jesus theden. Has his cup overflowed in you so that you can say with certainty I am loved of God and will certainly be with Him forever?
Hey PB,
Nice comment.
I agree with you that divorce is rampant. I also agree that maybe people who think they are in love may never have been in love.
Again, what is love?
For me, people who got divorced means that God was never in that relationship. A marriage is more than just a husband and wife. It's husband and wife joined together to emulate God's love. Where the husband and wife are joined to one flesh, God calls us to be joined to Him so that we are one with Him.
If God isn't part of the relationship then the marriage is in jeopardy.
You ask me if I've been loved by God. What does that mean?
My answer is yes. Because God is love. To have a relationship with God is to love God for God can only love and cannot hate.
What is love?
Question to everyone;
If you think that God loves every human being.
Why has it failed those in hell?
1) Was His love not an agape love?
2) Was His love not good enough?
3) Why has His love failed for some and not others?
4) Why was grace not applied to those in hell?
5) Why did he create hell, if He wanted nobody to be there?
6) Was His blood not sufficient to pay for their sins?
7) Why was His mercies not extended to them?
8) Was He lacking power, to save those He loved?
9) Was salvation the work of Jesus alone?
10) Why did the Almighty God put those He loves to hell?
11) How do you know, whether His love will keep you out of hell?
Please tell me why!
Remember God’s love never fails.
I have asked a few questions which every believer in Jesus should be able to answer.
If you can not answer them, then you have to ask yourself what kind of spiritual food you are getting from your church leaders and teachers.
Jesus said to Peter, “Do you love me? Feed my sheep.”
If you are a church leader, then what kind of teaching are you feeding your church congregations?
Don’t you know that all who teach will be judged more strictly! James 3:1
Can anyone of you walk up to Esau and say, ‘Jesus loves you!’ even though He said in His Word, that He hated Esau?
Do you really believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God?
Feel free to correct me if I have said anything wrong.
OK then!
If somebody says anything contrary to Scripture, do you think that person is lying?
If the Bible says God hates Esau, and you say He loves Esau, who do you think is telling the truth?
How many lies can a person say, till he is called a liar?
Do you believe that ALL liars will be in hell as the Bible says? Rev. 21:8
Perhaps you might think that Christian liars are excluded?
If you want to be wise, start with the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom.
If I am challenged that I am in contradiction with any thought, doctrine or conduct of any Scripture, then I severely judge myself and seek repentance from the Lord that He might cleanse me and lead me into all the truth.
It is better for me to be on the narrow Road the on the broad Road that leads to destruction.
paulg said, "Perhaps you might think that Christian liars are excluded?"
If they are saved, then YES. :D But I wouldn't say a true Christian would "practice" lying. A real Christian would be convicted of their sin and repent. But that doesn't mean that Christians don't lie.
paul g and PB,
please read the following posts, they very eloquently point out what I have clumsily been trying to write.
God’s Gracious Choice: Election
The Love of God and the Non-Elect
They do not take long to read.
MDM
Magi:
What conclusions are you drawing from these writings. You know how much I would rather your own words.
PB,
1. Election is biblical and True.
2. There are many types and levels of Love.
3. The Love Jesus has for the Elect is different from the love He has for the non-Elect.
4. Because He loves the Elect does not mean He Hates the non-Elect.
Please read the posts if you have not yet done so. They are not long and are more eloquent than I have been. They also include scriptures to support the conclusions.
MDM
Modern day magi;
I have understood what you have said.
It would be better if you do not believe John Mac Arthur but rather Jesus Christ our Lord who is God over all.
John Mac Arthur is not my teacher; he just regurgitates some of the wicked doctrines of the Catholic Church.
His election doctrine is with a small ‘t u l i p’.
The Lord Jesus Christ is my teacher and He is more reliable than any mortal man.
MDM, the Word of God is BLACK or WHITE.
Any man who tries to amalgamate the two and call it gray, does not understand the Word of God, whether John Mac Arthur, the Pope, John Calvin or you.
If so, you would become the judge of the Word of God, and we have to come to you to inquire what shade of white it is.
Love is no longer love, and grace is no longer grace etc.
The wise men have never come to know the truth, because they search the Scripture and think in them they find the truth, but they are unwilling to go to Jesus. John 5:39
This is nothing personal to Paul G., but why does he usually assume that everyone is part of the Catholic Church, when most of those people are clearly not? If they differ on one issue, they must surely be Catholic, correct? I bet in the next comment, I'm going to be accused of being a Catholic. I'm just waiting for someone to say that, so they can prove my point and I can tell them to stuff their whole foot in their own mouth.
Seriously, people waste too much time on blogs debating each other, when they could be doing something more productive that will edify and minister to other people. I mean how sad is that? When one stands before their Maker, what are they going to say? "Lord, I spend 50 hours every week for the most part of my life pointing out the wicked Catholic doctrines in their theology." And please, don't say to me, "I'm concerned about your soul." Be concerned about how you use your time wisely.
This is basically my REBUKE to people here. Some people even say to "feel free to correct [them] if they're wrong" and so here I am correcting you. Get off your computer and do something meaningful for God instead of wasting your time debating people on other people's blogs.
PB: I actually did enjoy your blog entries when it was about the Puritans, hence the title of your blog "Puritan Belief" and I think many people would enjoy reading more blog entries about the Puritans.
Truth & Zeal:
In my experience the people who point fingers at people waisting time talking about doctrine when they should be out preaching the gospel usually don't do this themselves.
I would be very surprised if you had shared the gospel to even one hundredth as many people as Paul G who is a painter and more then likely would be talking about Jesus to someone he just met as you read this.
In relation to catholicism if you hold catholic doctrines such as universalism or their 3 people in one god rubbish you are a catholic as these are core catholic doctrines.
You obviously have no idea what a a puritan belief is?
Truth and zeal:
If you look like a horse and have black stripes over your body, then I will call you a zebra, regardless what you like to call yourself.
Catholics do not differ on one issue, they differ on all issues.
The Catholic Church is called the Antichrist Church because they call the pope Holy Father.
For us there is one God that is the Father Eph. 4:6 by that I mean Holy Father and next to Him there is no other Holy Father.
The Antichrist has taken the title ‘Holy Father’ which belongs to Jesus Christ alone.
All the Antichrist people call the pope or somebody else Holy Father, other than Jesus Christ.
Truth and zeal; who do you call Holy Father??
If Jesus Christ is not your Holy Father who is in heaven, then you belong to the Antichrist Church who has another Father, and you know who their Father is.
Truth and zeal; perhaps you have a zeal, but so do the Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, the Muslims etc.
You should have a zeal for Jesus Christ because He is the TRUTH and not any other persons who are also called god.
I know you would like me to talk about the Puritans to tickle your ears, but you need to hear the truth.
Jesus said; the way is narrow and only few are those who find it.
Truth and zeal;
The Bible says there is only one God.
We are testifying to that one God, that that one God is the Lord Jesus Christ.
He is the only one person who is the true God and there is no other person beside Him who is also God.
Any other person, who claims to be God, is a false god and an imposter.
If anyone including you or an angel from heaven says, that there is another person, other than Jesus Christ who is also God. That one is a deceiver and a false teacher.
Now, why did Satan invent that wicked doctrine that God is three persons?
Answer; Satan had been granted to deceive the whole world even the elect if possible.
The whole world is under the power of the evil one that is Satan, except the elect who belong to Jesus.
Satan, who is craftier than anyone, knows by dividing God into three persons he divided the worship due to the one God, and caused them to worship three gods.
He deceived them to believe that the three gods are one God.
In them the Scripture is fulfilled; that they have received another Jesus and another Spirit and another Gospel than the one which we preach.
Revelation 13 v.11+12
He exercised all authority to WORSHIP the first beast, and all who refused to WORSHIP the image to be killed v15.
Rev. 14:9 if anyone WORSHIPS the beast; v.10 he will be tormented with burning sulfur, v. 11 there is no rest day or night for those who WORSHIP the beast and his image.
V. 12 But the elect remain faithful to Jesus.
To everyone;
Are you faithful to Jesus alone?
Or do you have another person next of Jesus whom you WORSHIP and also call your God?
If so, then I counsel you to buy from Jesus some eye-salve, so that you are able see! Rev. 3:18.
V. 19 to those whom Jesus loves He rebukes and disciplines.
So be ernest, and repent from that wicked Antichrist doctrine the Trinity, and be faithful to Jesus.
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Puritan Belief:
“In my experience the people who point fingers at people wasting time talking about doctrine... "
When did I say that talking about doctrine is a waste of time. There’s nothing wrong about talking about doctrine. I said that people waste too much time “on blogs debating each other.”
From my experience, debating on blogs generally (but not always) result in fruitlessness. Actual non-online, public “in-person” debates have facilitators, and a time frame to work in, so not to talk off the main topic.
" ...when they should be out preaching the gospel usually don't do this themselves… I would be very surprised if you had shared the gospel to even one hundredth as many people as Paul G who is a painter and more then likely would be talking about Jesus to someone he just met as you read this."
I understand that you can only vouch for those that you know very well. Although, how would you know that I do not share the gospel as much as Paul G.? Are you my pastor? Are we part of the same local church? Do you serve in ministry with me to make that assessment? It seems that you are assuming too much again. Should I assume that you and Paul G. are very arrogant and presumptuous people (even though you two may not be)? Please do not take personal offense to this, as I’m just making the point that you assume too much about me without doing your research.
From my experience, there are many bloggers who love to talk about theology, but lack grace in their speech. I posted only two comments on your blog mainly to caution individuals not to be arrogant and to apply Ephesians 4:29 in practice (not to imply that they should compromise their doctrines, but mainly to exhort them to be wise in choosing to engage into discussions that would be fruitful) and the discussion should have ended there, but it was actually you who digressed into the topic of Catholicism.
Perhaps, our use of terminology is different.
1. Are Catholics the only ones who believe in Universalism and the Trinity? How do you define “Catholicism?” When I refer to Catholicism, I’m referring to the Roman Catholic Church? How do you define “Protestantism?” Be specific. Are there not liberal evangelical denominations in the U.S. that believe in Universalism, but not be necessarily categorized as Catholic. What about conservative Southern Baptists? Please don’t make generalizations by grouping Universalism and the Trinity as Catholic doctrine (and just to make sure no assumptions are made, no, I do NOT believe in Universalism). The Southern Baptists in the U.S. believe in the Trinity, but they are never considered by Americans as Catholics. The reason why I ask you to define it is because your use of terminology may be different from the way we use it. I’ve met Christians from the United Kingdom that have told me that their definition of “Baptists” are very much different from our definition of Baptists in the U.S. I’m Protestant, so for you to say that it is Catholicism seems very absurd to me (and even insulting to make that association). One of the main differences between Protestants and Catholics here in the U.S. is the issue of Justification and the authority of Scripture as our source for theology and doctrine, not the papacy. Protestants here don’t believe in papacy.
2. Puritan Belief is the name and theme of YOUR blog. Why would you even ask me that question?
Paul G.:
1. Interesting horse/zebra analogy and that whole “I’ll call you a zebra regardless of what you call yourself” statement, but what do you actually know about me to actually justify that statement? Seriously, have we even met? Are we married? Am I a big-name preacher, in which you read all that I published or heard all my sermons as to label me as you would like to label me? Am I a prolific blogger who posted all these theological articles that you know everything about what I believe? I should ask Puritan Belief the same question. Would you and Puritan Belief readily admit that it was an error to first assume things about me in your comments and then justify it by saying, "I was hoping that my comment would cause you to write something that would show where you stand for Catholicism or for Jesus. I read what you had to say three times and I certainly don't want to associate you with the doctrines of Catholicism" (an actual comment from Puritan Belief from the Virgin Birth blog entry)? I would actually respond to that as being presumptuous.
2. When I read your comments, I ask myself, “Is he being deliberately presumptuous, so he can have a reason for talking excessively about theology?” and “Is he just talking to me about theology or is he genuinely interesting in having a fruitful discussion with me?”
I do not believe in the papacy, so why even mention the Pope? I could care less about the Pope and I’d probably even agree with you on that matter.
Who said I don’t believe in one God? When did I mention that Jesus was not God? When did I explicitly say or even hint to you otherwise.
Who said I don’t have zeal for Christ? Have you even been to my blog before making these statements? I really don’t think so.
I don’t want YOU to talk about the Puritans to “tickle my ears.” I was recommending Puritan Belief to write more on the Puritans, since it fits the theme of his blog. It’s his blog, he posts the entries that he wants to post on it.
3. What exactly is your definition of the Trinity? Don’t just respond to this, but explain to me your definition of the Trinity. The Christian definition is ONE God manifesting Himself in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Equal in essence, equally fully God, equally eternal, but ONE God, NOT three gods, NOT three different beings. Jesus is God. I agree, but all throughout Scripture, Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Scripture refers to Him as God the Son. If anything you say in response to this comment, you must at least answer the question about how you define the Trinity. Don’t talk to me about the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons or how Satan deceived the whole world (things that I already know). I just want to understand your definition of the Trinity.
Are you saying that Jesus is God the Father and NOT God the Son or are you saying that the person of Christ is Jesus the Father, Jesus the Son and Jesus the Holy Spirit? If so, what specific verses indicate this? Don’t just tell me, but show me the verses in Scripture within its context. Why would the gospel accounts say that Jesus is Son of God instead of saying, “Jesus the Father”? Who is the person speaking in Matthew 3:17 (the baptism of Jesus)? Is it not the Father acknowledging the Son? In John 17, Jesus is praying to whom? What does Jesus say, “Father, the hour has come, glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You.” Please explain who is the Father in this passage? Who is the Son in this passage? 1 John 1:3 indicate the fellowship we have “with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ,” but why does it say the “Son Jesus Christ” and not “Jesus the Father?” How do you explain this? I mean, I’m reading this in the Bible as I write this comment. Get your Bible and read 1 John 1:3 and all these verses I mentioned and provide your explanation.
Thank you.
Truth and zeal:
In the Bible there are only two churches, the true church and the false church, the church
Rome is the mother of all Catholic churches and Catholic meaning ‘Universal’.
so every church and denomination that holds and teaches Catholic teachings is called a ‘UNIVERSAL’ church, regardless of her name, whether Baptist, Pentecostal, or Lutheran.
Now in a lot of denominations there are some true born again believers, and all they together make up the body of Christ, which is the mystical, true Church of Jesus Christ. They all will be corrected and disciplined by the Lord. Rev. 1+2+3+4
You have asked me to define the Trinity.
Answer; I cannot define the Trinity, because there is no Trinity in the Bible.
Nowhere in the Bible is it said that God is three persons, or that there are three persons in one God.
The doctrine of the Trinity is the core doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Truth and zeal;
I have read your blog, I know what you believe, and what you have said about the Trinity. Many other writers say the same thing as you do.
The statement “God the Son” is not in the Bible, because there is no God the Son, for us believers there is only one God and that is the Father Eph. 4:6
Like all Trinitarians you preach another Jesus other than the one we preach.
I have spoken very clearly, and have explained most of the Scriptures you quoted; perhaps you did not read PB’s blog.
Do you believe Jesus, when He said that He is the Father John chapter 14 especially v.7 ?
Why is it that you want to add a second person to God?
Why is it so difficult for you to believe that Jesus Christ is the true God and there is no other person beside Him who is God?
Yes! In the Bible certain passages may suggest that there could be another person who is God.
If you would have received the Spirit of God, then you would know that all Scripture is fulfilled in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Spirit has been given to testify to Jesus, especially that the fullness of the Godhead bodily is in one person Jesus Christ.
If you can’t see the Father in Jesus, then you don’t know the Father and you don’t know Jesus.
If you can’t see the Spirit in Jesus, then you can’t see God.
Truth and zeal;
Perhaps that might help you.
It is always one person.
God is Spirit, (the Holy Spirit) John 4:24
He created all things. Gen. 1:2
He came upon Mary, and the Holy offspring shall be CALLED the Son of God. Luke 1:35
He, the Holy Spirit clothed Himself in flesh, Jesus Emanuel. Matt.1:23
Many difficult passages can be understood in that Light.
Always remember; God is never two or three persons.
The Lord thy God is one. Mark 12:29
Truth and zeal;
The most important question is;
Is there another person who is God next of Jesus?
Many sincere people stumbled on that question.
The Jehovah Witnesses say that Jehovah is God the Father, and Jesus is His Son.
Sounds familiar doesn’t it!
Except, you add that Jesus is also fully God.
I like to say it again, that the doctrine of the trinity is the most powerful deception Satan has ever produced.
Everyone who believes this doctrine is stumbling on the cornerstone, and Jesus who claims to be God became a rock of offence.
Paul G.:
You stated the following:
"I have read your blog, I know what you believe, and what you have said about the Trinity. Many other writers say the same thing as you do."
I don't think you have read my blog. If you have read my blog, then you would realize that there isn't much articles on that blog. Sorry to disappoint you, I'm just not an active blogger like the rest of you folks. You should also note that as of today, I have not yet written a single post on the topic of the Trinity, with the exception of a few responses to PB's comments (which was why I pointed out that he had to assumed too much without really getting to know me first).
Perhaps, you're not really reading my comments. PB stated, in response to my comment in his old blog article, that he had to read my comment a few times to make sure he understood correctly what I had said. I commend him for paying close attention to detail, especially in what I write, since I choose my words carefully. I think you should do the same as PB and read my comments a few times.
I asked you in an early comment to explain your definition of the Trinity, but it seems you're avoid the question by saying it is not mentioned in the Bible. I'm not asking whether you believe in it or not, because I already know what you believe. I'm asking you what is your definition of that word. Words don't always have the same meanings in different countries. American "Football" is not the same as "futbol" in other countries, even though the word sounds the same. I'm asking you to clarify your definitions of words.
Yes, I have read John 14:7 and do believe the Jesus is one with the Father (and yes, I do pay close attention to detail and read every word you write and read every passage you quote to see if you are explaining it within its context and not proof-texting it).
I don't think you have explain the verses that I mentioned in the earlier comment. I specifically asked who is the "Father" and "Son" mentioned in the context of Matthew 3:17 and John 17. The words "Father" and "Son" are explicitly mentioned in the Bible in the context of John 17. If not, then you are using a different Bible and there is no need for further discussion. So, in the context of John 17, are you implying that Jesus was praying to himself?
You also stated:
"The Spirit has been given to testify to Jesus, especially that the fullness of the Godhead bodily is in one person Jesus Christ."
Please list the actual verse numbers when you cite Biblical passages, if possible. If you don't have the exact verse number in memory, then at least quote the book and chapter (and the verse you quoted was Colossians 2:9).
Anyways, you noted "Godhead." What do you mean by the word "Godhead?" If I was a complete stranger who has never read the Bible, how would you define it to me?
Colossians 2:9 reads "the fullness of Diety dwells in bodily form," not the "fullness of the Godhead in Jesus Christ." The original greek word is "somatikos," which means bodily, corporeally or physically. It does not say Christ, which the greek word is "Christos" as used in Colossians 1:3 and note that in Colossians 1:3, it says "We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," but why would the apostle Paul state it like that instead of saying, "We give thanks to Jesus"? This is why I ask people to note the verse number, so they don't paraphrase it or state it incorrectly.
Also, what does it mean when the Bible says, "Son of God" in Ephesians 4:13? (Just answer this question only. You don't need to answer the other questions, as those are just rhetorical questions. You don't need to talk, debate or preach about anything else. If you just respond to this comment with only the answer to this question about Ephesians 4:13, then I know that you've actually been paying close attention to what I have written.).
In response to your first statement: No, Baptists, Pentecostals and Lutherans are not the same as Catholics. You are making a bad generalization to make this statement. Yes, there are a few similarities, but some further research and perhaps actually visiting churches of these denominations would actually provide a better understanding of the differences between Catholics and Protestants. On a different and final note, I know of one church in my area that specifically stated, "Jesus the Father, Jesus the Son and Jesus the Holy Spirit," but they are actually a cult. I hope that is not the case with you.
Truth and zeal;
The Lord did not call me to quote numerous Biblical passages, but to tell you the truth.
Most people on the ( blog ) are well read and have an excellent understanding of the Scripture.
I reserve the right to speak by the Spirit and not just by the letter; I was not quoting a Scriptural passage. The early disciples of the Lord Jesus did not have a Bible to quote endless passages; they spoke by the Spirit of the Lord Jesus.
If you have not come to know your heavenly Father by this time, do you think by quoting more passages you will know Him??
I don’t think so!
Jesus said, Matt. 11:27 (2) no one knows the Father, except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
So then, it is not a question for you to search the Scripture, because through the Scripture you will never know the Father. You have to come to Jesus; perhaps He will reveal the Father to you.
Son of God always means God in the flesh.
You said, you believe that Jesus is one with the Father.
But what you really mean is that Jesus is one with someone else.
I have stated many times, that Jesus is the Father and there is no one else who is the Father, why do you ask me?
If you believe that there is another person who is god or someone other than Jesus, then you believe in a FALSE god.
Jesus said, in John 8:24 that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.
The church in your area who states Jesus the Father, Jesus the Son and Jesus the Holy Spirit, do you call them a cult because they do not believe the same doctrines as you? Or do you call them a cult because they glorify Jesus in the father and Jesus in the Son and Jesus in the Holy Spirit?
Is that not what you supposed to do! Glorify Jesus in the doctrine of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
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