Puritan Belief

The Puritans are the men of God who started in the 16th century building on the purity of the gospel message that Salvation is by Grace alone.

Scripture explanation (monotheistic)!

(Part 3) Jesus on the cross!
Matthew 27:46 Jesus said, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” and in Luke 23:46 “Father into your hands I commit my spirit.”

Q:= How is that possible for the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Lord God the Almighty to make such a statement?
How can that statement be explained and understood with a sound mind?

A:= It is NOT that God sent someone else another person, His Son to die on the cross for our sins.
Rather it is that the Lord God the Almighty who is Spirit (John 4:24) became a man, or clothed Himself in flesh and took upon Himself the punishment for our transgressions and sins in His body. (Isaiah 53:4-6) And the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities.

It is impossible for God who is Spirit to die, because a spirit cannot die and God is the Holy Spirit.
The only way for God to die is, if He became a man, or clothed Himself in flesh (Jesus Christ our Lord and God).
Bear in mind that death is NOT annihilation, death is separation, being separated, the body from the spirit.

At the cross, Jesus Christ the son of man, the son of David, the son of Mary, the son of the Holy Spirit, the son of God gave His life, (the separation of His flesh from His Spirit) as a ransom for many who have inherited eternal life.
Plainly; Jesus from His flesh as the perfect man cried out to the Spirit who is in Himself, “Father, why have you forsaken me, and into your hand I commit my Spirit”.
That does not mean that Jesus was separated from another person, or that He committed His Spirit into the hands of another person.

Again it is absurd to say that God is many persons and that one person of God would talk to another person of God and so to have a dialogue.
To say so, would be a deception and foolish speculations!

Any dialogue within God is from the position of man to God, from the flesh to the Spirit, from a Son to a Father. All in one person Jesus Christ our Lord and God, to Him be all the glory for ever and ever, amen!

Add Your Comment(27)

Scripture explanation (monotheistic)!
Posted by Paul G Saturday, June 14, 2008

27 Comments:

Blogger Kc said...

Hi Paul.

I have read the articles on this page and your objections to the Trinitarian doctrine. As I understand it your main contention is not against the Trinitarian perception of God but rather the use and meaning of the term “person” in describing that perception. It seems that you would assign the term “person” to God as opposed to the term “being” and use the term “part” to make distinction between Father, Son and Spirit as opposed to the term “person”.

Is my understanding above an oversimplification of your arguments?

June 14, 2008 9:19 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

You skipped over the part about forsaking. Forsaking denotes separation. How did He separate from Himself? You said, "That does not mean that Jesus was separated from another person, or that He committed His Spirit into the hands of another person." So that's what you believe it doesn't mean, but what do you think it DOES mean?

I'm not a trinitarian, but I also cannot ignore the scores of instances in scripture where more than just semantic distinction is made between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Personally, I think it's a mystery than cannot be understood, and one that the enemy uses to divide us and keep us distracted from the real work of the gospel.

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10)

June 14, 2008 10:21 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Hi kc;
I have been strongly opposing the trinity doctrine as a whole.
The trinity is a plural doctrine and the Scriptural teaching of God is singular just as I have previously explained in many posts.

I use the term 'person' but not 'persons' and also the term 'being' but not 'beings'.
The deception of the trinity is not in the words but in the plurality.

And also the spirit is a false spirit who points to someone else other than Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

June 15, 2008 9:11 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Dorsey;
I’m glad to hear that you are not a Trinitarian.

Remember that the mystery of God namely Christ has been revealed to us who are in Christ Jesus our Lord. Colossians 2:2-4
A mystery is only that which the Lord Jesus has not yet revealed to you, but be patient, in due time the revelation will come.

Jesus Christ the Lord God the Almighty on the cross was forsaken by God must be understood in the light that God became a man or clothed Himself in flesh and subjected Himself to the cross and as a man took upon Himself the sins of the world and in that sense from the position of man to His Spirit who is God (John 4:24) Father why have you forsaken me.

God who is Spirit rejected and condemned His own flesh that was full of our sins and iniquity on the cross.

June 15, 2008 9:21 AM   Edit
Blogger Kc said...

Paul,

Thanks for the kind reply. Please forgive my density but I am still having difficulty in distinguishing your perspective from my own understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity. Using your language:

”God is Spirit and soul in one vehicle, the body of Jesus Christ! (John 4:24 and Isa. 1:14)
You have been created in His likeness, spirit soul and body. (Heb. 4:12)”


and

”The body of Jesus is the vehicle of the Holy Spirit, where the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father”

it seems you clearly hold a triune distinction in your perception of God (Holy Spirit, Father and Son) while maintaining the oneness of the Divine Nature (gr. theios) or Person of God (your language) or Godhead (Trinitarian/ Old English laguage).

Dorse,

I don’t care to be labled anything other than a believer and I agree with your take on the normal use of the doctrine of the Trinity as divisive and distracting. Is it the label you reject or the the doctrine specifically or something specific in the doctrine?

June 15, 2008 8:31 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

Kc, I reject the label because I cannot get past the mystery of it sufficiently to justify embracing it as a doctrine. On the other hand, I think Paul G's charge of pluralism can be interpreted as a bit of a strawman. I don't know any trinitarians who would even entertain the notion that they worship multiple gods.

I can accept the idea of the Trinity as a means of assimilating an unknowable concept to a finite mind, but I won't hang my hat on it. Likewise, a rigid argument against it falls apart in Matthew 28, when Jesus tells His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Why not just say, Me, Me & Me?

An absolutist argument one way or the other can never amount to anything more than semantics, except for the division that it causes between brothers.

June 16, 2008 12:55 PM   Edit
Blogger Puritan Belief said...

dorsey.

Not one disciple in acts was confused with exactly which name to baptise in.

They all baptised in the name of Jesus. Check it up for yourself.

If you have 3 different people/persons who are god and yet call them 1 God this doesn't stop the obvious amount of god's you have regardless if you say otherwise.

June 16, 2008 2:54 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Kc;
The Trinitarian thought is that the Father is a separate person from the Lord Jesus Christ.

I say that the Father is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Father is the title of the Lord Jesus, which means Creator of everything, Originator, Alpha’ the beginning, the first!

Because Jesus is the creator of everything, He is the Father or creator even of His flesh Jesus Christ His Son.
It is God who became a man or the Holy Spirit became visible in the flesh or body of the Lord Jesus.

You see, the Father is Jesus, the Holy Spirit who came upon Mary and the Holy child shall be CALLED the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)
So when Jesus speaks about His Father, He refers to the Holy Spirit within Him.
Because you cannot see a spirit, unless he clothed himself in flesh and God is Spirit in the body of Jesus.
Therefore you can look at God and live! Jesus Christ our Lord and God!
And we have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

June 16, 2008 8:53 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Dorsey;
The doctrine of God is the most important doctrine and is above all other doctrines.
If you err on that, you most likely err on all other doctrines.
Just like on the doctrine of the baptism. (Matt. 28)

Jesus did say Me, Me & Me!

Jesus never told you to baptize into three titles!

Father is the title of Jesus and not His name.
Son is the title of Jesus and not His name.
Holy Spirit is the title of Jesus and not His name.

Just like PB said, in acts they baptized them into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
In today’s Churches they baptize them into three titles; this kind of baptism is disobedience to the Lord Jesus and worthless.

June 16, 2008 9:02 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

"If you have 3 different people/persons who are god and yet call them 1 God this doesn't stop the obvious amount of god's you have regardless if you say otherwise."

PB, I think this is a mischaracterization of the previous comments. Again, I don't hold to the doctrine of the Trinity, but if Jesus Christ himself used the terms Father, Son and Holy Spirit to describe one God, this doesn't stop the obvious amount of names you have regardless if you say otherwise.

I still think this is a semantic argument. Paul, Jesus did not say Me, Me & Me. He used three distinct terms to describe Himself.

I don't think we're going to convince each other, and I don't want to argue merely in an effort to win an argument. Nor do I want to be a part drawing you into a position of judging me or anyone else. I wish you well.

June 16, 2008 10:35 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

My closing paragraph sounded smug. I'm sorry. I did not mean it that way at all. Peace.

June 16, 2008 10:38 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Dorsey;
I am confused!
You said that you do not believe in the doctrine of the trinity.
And you do not agree with me that the God of the Bible is the Lord Jesus Christ, the only true God and that there is no other.

Then please tell us, who is your God? And what is His Name?

June 17, 2008 12:06 AM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

Yes, you are confused. That's not what I said at all.

I certainly believe there is one God. I believe He has many names. And I believe scripture is clear throughout that there is some sort of "three-ness" about Him. I do not distinguish that "three-ness" into individual persons, which is why I do not adhere to a doctrine that does, although there is clearly some sort of interaction among the "three-ness," which your "doctrine" has not adequately explained. I do not comprehend that "three-ness" sufficiently to make any kind of absolute statement about it.

Your insistence that there is no distinction between Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the way you explain it away as if those names don't exist defies reason to my small mind. That is why I think it's best to let it go.

June 17, 2008 6:15 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Dorsey;
It is interesting that all Scripture speaks always of His name, the name of God, and nowhere in the Bible says 'His Names'(plural) as you have said.
Please read The name of God

Also you said that you do not understand or comprehend it.
We say that we fully understand and comprehend it.
We proclaim the God of the Bible relentlessly and unashamedly, His name and His person in whatever way necessary!
So that everyone would turn away from their own gods and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved!
Please read the doctrine of the Father the Holy Spirit the Son.


You still have not told us in which god you believe?
Everyone who says that they believe in a god, should be able to tell us in which god they believe and also his name?
Every religion can! Why can't you?

June 17, 2008 11:04 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

Sorry, man. If you're going to suspend the rules of language, this word game will have to continue without me. I'm sure you don't think so, but I think we'll have a laugh together about this in eternity.

Be well.

June 18, 2008 12:41 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

H'm; that's sad Dorsey!
Haven’t you read in the Bible,'as iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another?'
The only time when you will grow in your spiritual life is, when someone tells you the truth.

That which we are talking about is what matters most.
I am serious about that and do not laugh and neither should you.

Churches today, whichever denomination are lukewarm and some dead because they have departed from the Lord Jesus and don't even know it, just like Israel who always turned away from the Lord and in their hearts burned incense to other gods.
Do you think that today's generation is any different?
I don't think so!

The man of God is forged on the battlefield and not in a hideaway place where he gets the praise of his so called friends.

June 18, 2008 5:47 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

In the sharpening process, BOTH pieces of iron are sharpened as each sheds its dull spots. The analogy falls apart when one of the pieces fancies itself a diamond, hard enough to sharpen iron, but impervious to the process itself.

Good luck, sparkly friend.

June 18, 2008 11:09 PM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Dorsey;
It seems to me that you do not understand a sharpening process.

By what kind of a teacher have you been taught??

To sharpen a knife (iron), you never use an equally hardened iron.
One has to be harder than the other, preferably Diamond as you said.

I have been sharpened by the master Diamond sharpener Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
I tell you, I did not like it, just like you!

June 19, 2008 4:48 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

"I have been sharpened by the master Diamond sharpener Jesus Christ our Lord and God."

That leaves me a little speechless. When I read that in the context of your comment on another post indicating that you have received permission from the Lord to judge another man's salvation, I begin to wonder if you haven't created your own reality.

You denigrate the notion of a spiritual hierarchy (as do I), but then you set yourself above others as one having some special favor or understanding or authority??

Jesus (the one and only God) had words for guys like that.

June 20, 2008 8:04 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Dorsey;
As for me receiving permission from the Lord to judge another mans salvation.
I did not really say that!
But since you put it into those words;
Yes I do judge another mans salvation, whether he or she is saved or not, and so should you!
How can you or I minister the gospel of salvation, if we do not know where they stand in regard to salvation?

You said; "Jesus (the one and only God)".
That is the best statement you made since you appeared on the radar!

You claim NOT to believe in the trinity.
Then why do you oppose me??
Shouldn’t you publicly agree with me and expose this lie that God is three persons?
Well Dorsey, you can NOT have one foot in both camps just like you cannot serve two masters.

June 21, 2008 7:05 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

I think your "foot in both camps" remark identifies the root of your perplexity with me. I don't consider that my feet are in anyone's camp. I don't think trinitarians make their case, and I don't think you make yours. That's really it. Further, I don't think either of your explanations rises to the level of a lie, merely a difference of perspective.

Where I do oppose you is your absolutist approach (agree with me, or you're the purveyor of a lie), and your entirely anti-scriptural posture of judging the salvation of others. I have little patience with that.

June 23, 2008 1:16 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Yes that is exactly the problem we have, that you are in nobody's camp.
I wish you would be in somebody's camp!

Perhaps I am an absolutist as you said, because I have both of my feet in the camp of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If you would be in His camp, then you would give me an 'Amen'.

There is only two ways; Either Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty and there is NO other, or He is NOT!
This is not a question of interpretation or perspective.
It is between truth and error!

June 23, 2008 11:33 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

HAHAHAHA!!!!!
I bet my friend five dollars that you would twist my foot-in-neither-camp comment to say that I'm not in Christ!!! Beautiful.

I've looked through your blog, and there are plenty of places I will give you an amen (i.e. tithes and church hierarchy), but the reservations I have stated still remain.

Let me ask you this: if I served you meat that had been blessed in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, would you eat it?

June 24, 2008 11:13 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Thank you Dorsey that you call me friend!
To say that you are not in Christ; I would never say such a thing!

Many thanks for the 'amen' on tithing and Church hierarchy!
I think that you have your eyes and ears open to this kind of false teachings which has polluted most of today's Churches.

I think that the men of God ought to rise up from their slumber and boldly rebuke such teachings and practices.

Answer to your question;
Of course I would eat the meat you would serve me!
I would be thankful to you for being so kind to serve me the meat and to the Lord Jesus for providing the meat.
As I would enjoy the meat, perhaps I would ask you; exactly, in which name has that meat been blessed??

June 24, 2008 10:20 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

I do call you friend, Paul, and I hope you do not interpret my opposition as antagonistic or personal, even though it is my natural bent to lapse into sarcasm sometimes.

I have perceived you as unyielding and absolute, and I think you have perceived me as wishy-washy and trying to please everyone. Let me see if I can explain the point I'm trying to get at. If I asked you whether you believe that you have a perfect understanding of the truth of God, I would assume your answer would have to be no. So then, the implication is that your understanding (and mine, and everyone else's) bears some measure of error. So if I can grant that measure of error in myself, it must necessarily temper any dogmatism I possess in my approach to others.

In other words, because of the darkness that remains (until I see Him and know fully) in my understanding, I cannot treat everything as utterly black and white.

In my reading of scripture, as I mentioned in an earlier comment, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10). That is the only absolute I hang on to. Everything else is up for discussion.

And so, we discuss.
: )

June 25, 2008 1:55 AM   Edit
Blogger Paul G said...

Dorsey;
Yes, rightly you said that I am unyielding and absolute.
But that would be to the knowledge of God.
I fully know the Lord my God Jesus Christ and there is no error.
It does sound dogmatic and many find that offensive.

I think that an offense for the sake of an offense is sin and an offense for the sake of truth is the divine will of God.

In your situation, I would not tolerate the slightest measure of error in the knowledge of God.
Because the knowledge of God or the doctrine of God is the most important doctrine and everything hinges upon that.
Everyone who fully understands that doctrine has laid the foundation of their life and faith upon an unshakable rock and that rock is Jesus Christ our Lord.

Churches and Christians of all denominations have so many problems and are in a mess spiritually and physically, because they don't really believe that Jesus Christ is LORD. They always entertain the thought that there has to be somebody else who is God and Jesus alone is not sufficient.
The root of all that is the teaching of the trinity.

June 25, 2008 11:40 PM   Edit
Blogger dorsey said...

"I fully know the Lord my God Jesus Christ and there is no error."

Then there's really nothing else to talk about is there? If that's true, then you should turn off comments, and just let everyone hear from you.

Personally, I think you're in for a big surprise. I hope to be present to see the joy break out on your face when you realize that your understanding of Christ didn't even scratch the surface.

I wish you all the best, my friend.

June 26, 2008 12:42 AM   Edit

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