Trinity Confusion Solved!
The Lord Jesus Christ said, “I and
the Father are ONE” (John 10:30).
Consequently the Lord Jesus and the
Father are NOT TWO!
'FATHER' is a TITLE and NOT a name.
The TITLE 'Father' belongs to only ONE
person, to Jesus Christ our Lord (John 14:9), the Prophet Isaiah said
about Jesus, “He shall be called EVERLASTING FATHER” (Isa. 9:6).
If the TITLE 'Father' belongs to
ANOTHER person, other than Jesus Christ, then Jesus Christ and the
Father are TWO, (two separate persons or identities).
This is simple and intellectually
sound, therefore every one who believes the Trinity teaching stands
condemned before God, because he or she would NOT believe in the NAME
of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18) whom He has sent, which
is Jesus Christ our ONLY God (Jude 1:25).
It is NOT that God sent someone else,
His so called 'Son' into this world (John 3:17), to the contrary, He
Himself came into this world (Luke 1:35 and Mat.1:23), and thus 'John
3:17-18' is called a metaphor.
Condemned, because they do not believe
when Jesus said, “if you do not believe that I am 'HE', you will
die in your sins” (John 8:24).
The word 'HE' does not mean 'the Son of
God', since every denomination, cult and all the demons believe and
know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Mark 3:11 Luke 8:28).
So then the word 'HE' is referred to
the title Father, just as the Prophet Isaiah said, “He shall be
called everlasting Father” (Isa. 9:6), the TRUE God (1 John 5:20),
the ONLY God (Jude 1:25) and beside the Lord Jesus there is NO OTHER!
(Isa. 43:10).
Jesus said that the greatest
commandment of the Lord is this “Hear O Israel! The Lord our God
the Lord is ONE; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR
HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH (Mark
12:29-30).”
It is not possible to love or serve two
persons who are God (Mat. 6:24), therefore the Lord your God is ONE
and not two as all Trinitarians preach and teach.
Elijah the Prophet said, “How long
will you HESITATE between TWO options? If the Lord (Jesus) is GOD,
follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.”
And no, you cannot follow both.
Because you have read in the Word of
God that Jesus Christ is GOD over ALL (Rom. 9:5) and you have read
this post, therefore you are without excuse before the true and only
God Jesus Christ our Lord.
Please let me hear your thoughts.
Any comments good or bad, strong or
weak are welcomed, except swearing and blasphemy.
Add Your Comment(155)
Trinity Confusion Solved!Posted by Paul G Sunday, December 01, 2013
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
155 Comments:
I was not going to respond because I think it is still the same argument posed by you but maybe there some things we can add.
Your graph is almost correct but instead of "is not" and "is" on the connectors, both shoould say "is".
Anyway, I have a question for you. Jesus was tested by satan in the wilderness. What would have happened if Jesus actually bowed down to him? The answer before we get started is not "He could not have been tested or bowed down." Because He could have. If that is another topic then let's keep it as another topic for later.
Hear from you soon, Thanks Paul.
Thanks Tim for your comment.
The graph on the post is the base teaching of the trinity.
Some trinitarians can see the irony of that teaching and try to modify it slightly. However the trinity is such a powerful Satanic lie, therefore any alteration to it will always be as such, a LIE!
I have been exposing the danger of this doctrine for many years. The problem we see in most churches, assemblies and individuals that they start of right in Christ Jesus our Lord and end up dead and irrelevant.
They can't see that when a church divides God into 'THREE' separate identities, the Lord will leave such assemblies and they end up with the name ICHABOD written over that assembly, (Ichabod means 'the glory has departed').
A modified trinity is as dangerous as the trinity. The only way by which a person or an assembly can be freed from the punishment of this evil doctrine is to confess the trinity to be a sin against the Lord and then actively preach against that devilish doctrine.
To your question;
The Lord Jesus created Satan for this very purpose, therefore it is impossible for the creator to bow down to that which He has made.
It is possible for men to make an idol and then bow down and worship it, but God is not a man who can be deceived.
All though God came in the likeness of man Jesus Christ, or more specific, He came in the likeness of Adam, therefore He is called the second Adam.
The first Adam is from the earth and was made to sin and to die, but the second Adam (Jesus Christ) is from heaven and He could not sin or fail on His mission to save to the utmost ALL His children, first Adam His son (Luke 3:38) and through Adam all Gods children.
The graph is a base for some perhaps. I would not agree with it. You still may call that a lie started by satan. I of course will accept your view.
I think you opened up a whole new topic we may disagree on. Do you think Jesus was not a man? Hear my thoughts on this without jumping into a answer. If Jesus was a man (and God at the same time) then He went through all the same temptaion man has done (heb 4:15). If Jesus was not man but God only then His life and gesture of coming to His creation has less value. Please do not get me wrong I believe His life has complete value which gave us value. I see what you are saying that God will not bow down to satan but as a man He had the option, otherwise He was not a man. Do you see what I mean?
This is why I said in my post that the answer is not "He could not have been tested or bowed down". If He was man He had the option like we do, unless what Paul wrote is a lie.
I will let you respond to that before I go on and pose the other question I was going to ask. I think we need to discuss this first.
Take care.
Sorry, I said Paul wrote Hebrews. That was a mistake. I should have said whoever wrote Hebrews, did he/she lie in 4:15?
That is right Paul,
God is Spirit, and the original Adam knew only that Spirit until He questioned the word of God, brining death upon himself through a disobedient spirit. Now Jesus is come bringing forgiveness for that disobedience and we are able, through His sacrifice, to be born again of that Holy Spirit.
Tim I'm sorry for my delayed reply, but my house is like a railway station, especially during those festive times and I find it difficult to sneak away to my computer.
Yes my brother, Jesus was a man, but not like you or me. He is the 'only begotten Son', which means the only one of a kind. According to 'kind' Jesus is like Adam and according to the 'only ONE of a kind', Jesus differs from Adam because Jesus was born through a woman, while Adam was made from the dust.
God is Spirit (John 4:24), and that Spirit is the Lord Jesus without a physical body or flesh. We know that God does not need a physical body, but in order to sympathise with our weaknesses and to accomplish our redemption He prepared for Himself a body.
The Lord Jesus is the Lord God in flesh, and only in the flesh as a man it was possible for Satan to tempt the Lord in all things the same way as all of us, but Jesus was without sin.
Yes Tim, Jesus had an option to bow down to Satan, but what is an option when the infallible Lord God the Almighty is living in the son of man Jesus Christ and His mission was to defeat Satan?
Looking from men's perspective, we like to think that we have an option, but the reality of that matter is that the first Adam did not have an option to sin or not to sin, and neither did the second Adam Jesus Christ. The first was created to fail the second was to succeed in victory and salvation for all His children.
If we have been created for a purpose, then we will fulfil that purpose regardless of options.
I do not see that a perfect man has an option, but only fallen men have options. Adam and the Lord Jesus both were perfect man.
Thanks Brenda for joining in.
What do you think; does disobedience warrant a total destruction, death, sickness, demon possession, hell and damnation to your only son?
Would you utterly destroy your son if he has been disobedient?
Perhaps you might see that it takes a lot more than disobedience for a righteous judge and loving father to condemn and destroy his first and only son Adam.
Disobedience brought 'separation', not 'condemnation' Paul.
Disobedience brought both, separation and condemnation.
But does that deserve death and condemnation?
Separation is condemnation, to a life away from God's presence, which in turn is spiritual death. It was not a matter of what was deserved, it was what was chosen. Sin against God is self-condemning.
Sin against God is self-condemning.
I like that statement :-)
Yes Paul,
If a person walks within a shaft of light, and then walks away from that shaft of light into the darkness, then things change only for the person that has walked into the darkness. The shaft of light remains the same.
Yes Brenda, if that shaft of light is the Lord Jesus and the person who has walked away into the darkness belongs to Him, the Lord will leave the ninety nine and goes after him who has walked away into darkness and He will bring him back into His marvellous light, then there will be great rejoicing.
Yes Paul,
the shaft of light example can be looked at in two ways. One is when we go astray as a believer in Jesus - after we have been born again. The other way I see it is that all have been born into sin Romans 5:12 'Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:' This walking into darkness representing the sin of Adam being the walking into darkness when he chose to sin against God by questioning His word - thereby losing eternal life. Now all men have been given the chance to be reunited with God through the Holy Spirit being sent as a result of Jesus' sacrifice. We were not sons of God before because although Adam was son of God, Adam's descendent Seth was created in Adam's own image, (the image of a man who had sinned against God). So Adam's descendants were not created in God's image because God is without sin, Adam was not without sin when he had his son Seth. Now, through Jesus sacrifice we have been given power to become sons of God. John ch.1 vs.12 and 13. 'But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.'
Jesus was a man, but not like you and me. That is a statement we will be in unison forever with. But let me add why. His blood line is not from man. He was born of a woman but not conceived by her. His physical traits are from the line of David, Abraham, and Adam. But His blood line is only of God. This means that the sinful nature was not passed on to Him. But!!!! When Adam was created, yes out of dust, he was created without sin as well. He had not the sinful nature yet but he did have free will. Jesus had no sinful nature but He still had free will as the first Adam did.
Jesus had all opportunity to sin. Hebrews 4:15. I agree with almost everything you said about John 4:24. And that is why Him being able to succomb to sin IF He desired is so valuable. If He was not able to do so then Him coming to us and living our life means nothing. It would be like a rich man going to live in the slums but still have all access to money in His pocket every minute and uses it. Sure He came to live with us but if He was not completely like us then so what. Instead He is like a rich man who still had access to all of His money but still did not use it so He could feel everything the poor person had. That means more than anything. He was here and felt ALL the things we do. When he defeated satan He proved that sin can be dealt with. Paul told us to fight sin with the word of God which means we can pass it up if we really really really want to. But the flesh is so weak. This is also why Jesus quoted the scripture to fight the temptation. He was weak from hunger. His flesh was weak. But He was fed by the Spirit.
With that all said, this brings us back to the main point. What would have happened if Jesus bowed down?
Thanks Brenda for this clear explanation. I did know that you believed that, because I read that in your posts without actually leaving any comments.
I agree with your first section of this comment, but on the second part we greatly differ.
You said, 'Now all men have been given the chance to be reunited with God through the Holy Spirit being sent as a result of Jesus sacrifice. We were not sons of God before because although Adam was son of God'.
Brenda, I do not see that any men have a CHANCE to reunite themselves with God. To the contrary, they ALL are haters of God, lovers of pleasures, lovers of self, there is NOT ONE who seeks after God, no not even ONE! (2 Tim 3:2-5 and Ps. 53:2-3).
It is actually worse than that.
Remember that in Adam ALL have died, therefore ALL are DEAD. And dead people can do nothing, that is because they are dead. They are not a little bit alive and a little bit dead, oh no! In that area where they are dead they cannot function. They are spiritually dead and they cannot give themselves a new birth or make themselves born again and neither can their free will, John 1:12-13 as you have quoted will confirm that what I have said. Therefore they desperately need a saviour to call them out of their tomb, they need to hear the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:25) and only those who hear the call of the Lord Jesus will be born again and come out of their tomb just like Lazarus.
You said, 'We were not sons of God before because although Adam was son of God'.
Again to the contrary, we were sons of God before the foundation of the world, and it is impossible for the sons of the devil to become sons of God.
A son of the devil was, is and always will be a son of the devil, just like a son of God was, is and always will be a son of God, and the new birth 'eternal life' is ONLY for the sons of God. That is because in Adam all the sons of God have died and the Lord Jesus resurrected everyone of them to a new life, while the sons of the devil never had spiritual life, they were born spiritually dead just like all of us, and it is impossible for them to ever become born again. Yes they will have a life of the flesh and of the soul but never ever of the Spirit.
It is important to understand that the Lord Jesus laid down His life only for His sheep (John 10:15), that is for His children and not for the devils children, the wolves in sheep clothing.
Tim, so you think that Adam used his free will to sin, and Jesus used His free will not to sin?
What would happened if Adam used his free will never to sin?
But as it is, perfect Adam could not stop sinning, even with his free will, and what makes you think that we as sinners and born in sin could be better than Adam and use our free will NOT to sin?
If that would have been possible, then we wouldn't need a saviour, we could have saved ourselves by exercising our free will to quote the Scriptures to the devil. I wonder how long that would last?
Because the Lord Jesus has defeated the devil, we have been taught to resist the devil and to live in the Spirit of God and then we will not fulfil the desires of the flesh, in other words, walking closely with our Lord Jesus Christ and then we truly walk in the light.
Answer to your main point.
'What would have happened if Jesus bowed down?'
If Jesus would have bowed down, he wouldn't be the Lord God the Almighty but a sinner and a devil worshipper and nobody would have believed in him and neither would we, or bear testimony to him. Worst of all, we still would be dead in our sins and transgression.
Paul, do you not believe that we should evangelize to all? The Lord is not willing that any should perish as stated in 2 Peter ch 3 v.9 'The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to ward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'1 Timothy ch.2 v.4 says that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. He has His ways of doing this and those who have become born again of His Holy Spirit are used to do this. No man can come to Jesus except he is called by God and no man can come to God except through Jesus. 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;' 1 Timothy ch.2 v.5 Yes I know that the Lord spoke to me through the words of 'I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb', and these words confirmed what I believed I had been shown in my 'near death' experience, but if you notice Paul- Jeremiah had to become a prophet to the nations.
Paul,
I want to thank you for your answer. I believe it opens some good conversation without anyone saying "No, you're wrong", like many do.
Yes. I think Adam had free will to sin. Now, do I think God already had a plan for Jesus to come to earth to save us, yes to that too. I believe there is a huge difference between predestination and fore knowledge. God of course knew Adam would choose sin even before He created him. But does that mean God caused (predetermined) Adam to sin so that billions upon billions would suffer the fate of being separated from Him in the end? I hope not. But, it is an option. I do not think the Bible backs that up enough to be a part of my faith. Jesus had the same free will. If He did not then He would never had called for another cup to drink from or would not have had to be ministered by angels in times of tribulation. And since He was able to sin and had the same free will that we do then His coming to save us is now all the more valuable and shows even more love for us. He walked in our shoes!
If Adam chose not to sin, who knows? He may still be living in paradise. But since the tree was there I am sure sooner or later he may have doen it anyway. I do not know. I do believe he was supposed to live forever until he chose the path of sin allowing sin to enter his blood stream and then able to pass it on to the rest of us, except Jesus. Jesus was born of God and not the sinful nature but still the free will. Adam was perfect in creation. That is why God said it was not only good but very good compared to everything else He created. Satan was also created this way until evil was found in him. Perfect in beauty. But sin entered both of these beings causing imperfection. And now Adam could not stop sinning due to his own desires not because of his inability and satan was now bound to hell. We are no better than Adam. We have the same make up as Adam. Free will, desire to sin as a natural element, but the capability to pass sin up. We need a savior because we all mess up. Do you think a baby is sinful? Is that baby bound to hell without having the free will to make its own choice? The baby has a savior but since it is still innocent there is no law against it. Paul said against these there is no law but where sin is more then grace is more.
Walking in the light of His grace, yes! I like what you said.
If Jesus would have bowed down, he wouldn't be the Lord God the Almighty but a sinner and a devil worshipper and nobody would have believed in him and neither would we, or bear testimony to him. Worst of all, we still would be dead in our sins and transgression.
That is what I think too. Now we can get back to your original post. If He sinned He would have been separated from God. We would have no chance except by staying under the LAW. But Jesus would no longer be God. Do you think if Jesus bowed that God would no longer be around? No, scripture said God is forever. Jesus, the man would have His soul become like ours. The man of Jesus would NOT be God anymore. Then who would He be? And who would be God then? Of course we do not have to worry about that because Jesus did exactly as you said, He defeated satan and gave us the way to the Father and Himself, the same person.
We may disagree but this is all hypothetical so we can venture that way a little...a little within reason.
Tim,
where does it say that Satan was 'perfect in beauty'? You are not speaking about Lucifer are you. Satan was a liar from the beginning.
Satan means 'adversary', Lucifer means 'light bearer'.
Brenda,
I have a long answer for that, way too long to post here. If you want the whole idea then go to Christian Thoughts on my blogpage and look at IX and X called the Satanic Verses. This is not a plug for my page but you will see how long it is.
Short answer, yes. Lucifer is not satan's name but only stands as a symbol. Angels were light bearers. Stars are symbols of angels (see Revelation) Lucifer was the brightest. Isaiah also compares satan with King of Tyre. many do not believe that but see everything Isaiah says about him, only satan could fit that description.
Sorry, I meant Ezekiel as well.
We are light bearers Tim
Anyone that brings light to darkness is a light bearer. But there are different kinds. Jesus was the light. Angels show His glory. We represent His glory. This particular passage that Isaiah and Ezekiel are talking about are angels.
The devil was a sinner from the beginning Tim (1 John ch. 3 v.8).
That is true. But from the beginnig of what? Time? Creation? his own creation? Do you think God created satan with sin? I do not think so. I think what John is saying here is satan is the first sinner. Hence, the beginning of sin. If God created satan IN sin already, then God created created evil itself. I do not think this. I think He created opportunity (free will) but not evil. satan, remember was an angel of light too. A light bearer. But no longer, since he is full of sin.
Yes Tim,
Isaiah ch.45 v.7 says about the Lord 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.' What would be the point of having free will if there was no choice between good and evil. I can not see in the scriptures where it says that satan was a light bearer. satan is the spirit that tries to tempt us to disobey God, the spirit that we can learn to overcome when we put our trust in Jesus to teach us the difference between good and evil. I respect the fact that we can all think differently Tim, but what I have written here is what I see in the various scriptures as going together to reveal something to me. Maybe we have to agree to disagree here eh?
Not that big of a deal.
Angel of light ot me means he was a light bearer. Lucifer means light bearer. If satan and lucifer are the same then there is your connection. If they are not the same then I need to find out who lucifer actually is.
Yes Brenda, to ALL! To every creature under the sun.
The problem we have is to rightly understand the Scriptures.
(2 Tim.2:15) The natural man does wrongly divide the word of truth, but we who are spiritual ought to divide the word of truth 'rightly'.
The Antichrist church, which is the universal church of all denominations whose mother is the catholic church divides the word of truth incorrectly.
They divide God into TWO or three persons, a division is forbidden in the Scriptures and by the Spirit of the Lord Jesus, and that which they should divide, which is mankind they do not.
They say that all men are children of God.
As for me, I do NOT divide God, but I divide mankind into TWO, the children of God and the children of Satan.
You said, "The Lord is not willing that any should perish as stated in 2 Peter 3:9".
Also in that verse I distinguish between God's children and Satan's children, the elect and the non elect.
Do you think that God would like to save every human being on the face of this planet?
If the Lord Jesus wanted to save Tom, Dick and Harry and then lost them in hell, what kind of a saviour would He be?
Not only that, if the Lord Jesus lost only one whom He loved and wanted to save from hell, then you could NEVER trust Him to save you. If He couldn't save him who He wanted to, what makes you think He could save you?
Brenda, for you to have a full confidence in Jesus Christ our saviour, you need to understand salvation in the light of election.
According to the Scriptures, there is a salvation for only the elect (God's children), and a salvation for ALL mankind. One from death unto eternal life Born again, the other from punishment to salvation.
All problems and disputes occur when we amalgamate the two.
2 Peter 3:9 speaks to us, to God's children and not to Satan's children. It admonishes us to be eager to REPENT! To live a life of repentance, so that we will not suffer the consequences for disobedience like the rest of the world.
It does not use the word salvation, but it is OK to use the word salvation. In that sense, we are saved from perishing with the world.
It is important to understand that 2 Peter 3:9 does not speak about the free gift eternal life (the new birth).
Saved from sin, trouble and natural disasters is NOT the FREE gift of God.
I Tim.2:3 the Lord is also speaking to us for instruction. It is our saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The phrase "all men to be saved" is for us the natural salvation and for the rest of the world it is also natural salvation, but that passage is speaking to us.
Again, for us it is the spiritual salvation (the new birth) which is the free gift, but the natural salvation comes by repentance and believe, which is for both the elect and non-elect.
Yes Brenda, Jeremiah was a prophet to the nations, but now it is us who hold the oracle of the Lord and we will speak in Jesus Name to the nations.
Well brother Tim, a debate between truth and error will always accompany the term "No, you are wrong". And even that is the dealing and pruning of the Lord in our lives.
To solve that problem, we need a small ego and a big heart to quickly repent when wrong :-)
Yes Tim, I'm fully convinced that God predetermined Adam to sin.
The Lord told Adam beforehand saying, "....for when you eat of it you will surely die." (Gen. 2:17).
Now Adam was created perfect and he had the mind of Christ just as we have the mind of Christ, therefore he, just like Abraham fully knew and believed the Lord to the extent that even if the Lord would kill him (Adam), the Lord would be able and have the power to raise him back to life from the dead at the appropriate time. And such the Lord has done.
But there was the second part of Gods plan.
The Lord wanted to introduce children into the human race who are not His children and not from Adam, but from another male the Serpent (Gen. 3:15).
That is called the fall of men, or the sin of Eve.
From that time on men were divided into two groups, the children of God and the children of the devil, or in other words the children of Adam and the children of the Serpent and Eve became the mother of both (Gen.3:20).
Out of all those children, the Lord knew His own and laid down His life for His own and gave them life and eternal life, to only to His own children. (Election).
You have asked, "Do you think a baby is sinful? Is that baby bound to hell without having the free will to make its own choice?"
Providing that you believe that the Lord is absolutely just, that He doesn't punish anyone for something they haven't done.
A baby hasn't sinned, therefore it cannot be punished, and it cannot be punished for someone else's sin, not even for Adams sin (original sin).
If that baby is a child of God through Adam, it will be born again to eternal life, no matter how long it lives on earth.
If that baby is a child of the Serpent (the devil), it will never see life, to be born again, but it will abide in death, no matter how long it lives on earth.
If both live long enough to commit sin, the punishment for the children of God fell upon Jesus Christ on the cross and the punishment for the children of Satan will come in justice upon them.
For this reason God commands that ALL men repent and believe in Jesus Christ our Lord and be saved.
Hi Tim,
happy new year to you. The only place I can see where satan and angel of light appear to be mentioned together is in 2 Corinthians ch. 11 vs. 13 - 15. where it is mentioned about false apostles being in the church referring to these men as servants of satan. 'For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.' I would say that disguising yourself as an angel of light does not make you an angel of light. When Jesus told Peter that He must suffer at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and raised on the third day, and Peter said 'God forbid Lord, this shall never happen to you', Jesus said 'Get behind me, satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.' Just as satan entered Peter, this is happening today, satan is trying to persuade believers to do what is comfortable to the flesh, not what is required of them by the Spirit.
Happy new year to you too Paul.
That is what I was saying regarding Jeremiah, that just as Jeremiah was sent to the nations (and I felt the Lord speaking to me through that passage of scripture because of my near death experience revealing to me that God had known me before He formed me in my mother's womb) so too I was being told to speak to the nations (outsiders) as in evangelizing. I am not sure what you mean here, 'According to the Scriptures, there is a salvation for only the elect (God's children), and a salvation for ALL mankind. One from death unto eternal life Born again, the other from punishment to salvation.' or what scriptures you are referring to , so I can't really comment on this subject. Perhaps you could explain it to me. I am well aware however that there is much said about the 'Heavens' and the 'earth', and their spiritual meaning.
And now we have started back into the last post. But I have enjoyed reading and hearing more from both of you. Come on over to discuss satan being an angel if you want. I will come back and see what is going on soon. Both of you take care and may God make this year favorable to you. In love from above...
Also a happy new year to you Brenda.
Luke 18:42, tell me please, from what was the blind beggar saved?
And also, why was he saved?
(Ephesians 2:4) "But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions it is by grace you have been saved. (Verse 8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works so that no one can boast."
Tell me, from what have we been saved?
And if you can, please tell me why did the Lord save us and not everybody?
Other versions of Luke ch.18 v.42 say that the blind beggar was 'healed', not saved Paul. However, whichever way it is translated, I believe that the man was healed because he believed that Jesus could heal him. If I was to discern that passage spiritually it would mean to me that the spiritually blind can receive spiritual sight through belief that Jesus is able to give them this. As for Ephesians ch.2 v.4, to me it means 'saved' from spiritual death (separation from God). As far as your question about saving us and not everybody, we are saved, as the believers referred to in Ephesians ch.2 are because of that belief in Jesus through our faith. I believe that, because God desires that all men be saved, and no man can come to Jesus except he is drawn by God, there is a time for everyone to be called, just like when God called me and called you Paul. That is the point of evangelizing, and because everyday in my life is written in His book before even one of them was formed (something the Lord spoke to me a long time ago) then the timing of my evangelizing, and other people who have been called to evangelize, is in God's hands.
Thank you Brenda so much for your answer.
Yes, the KJV said "saved", and we both know that 'healed' or 'saved' is correct. If a man is saved from drowning, he is SAVED, but it only means saved from drowning and to read anything else into it is wrong.
It doesn't mean that he is saved from from eternal death and damnation.
Luke18:42
You said, "I believe that the man was healed because he believed that Jesus could heal him."
Yes, that's exactly right, and it doesn't mean anything else.
It is the second part of your answer which is not right.
You said, "If I was to discern that passage spiritually it would mean to me that the spiritually blind can receive spiritual sight through belief that Jesus is able to give them this."
No Brenda, absolutely not!
This is where we differ, you think that it is possible for a man to get spiritual sight and spiritual life through believing in Jesus.
Jesus said, 'unless a man is born again, he cannot SEE or enter.' (John 3:3-8 and 1-13).
The blind beggar was a natural man and he wanted natural things, like his eyesight. The natural man does NOT know or want anything of the spirit, that is because he is spiritually dead. He cannot even come to Jesus for spiritual things.
You see, God wants no one to perish, but ALL men to be naturally saved, just like the beggar.
Brenda, this is important, if a man is spiritually saved (born again), he cannot spiritually perish or spiritually die, that is because he has received eternal life as a FREE GIFT.
That new spiritual life he has, is NOT because of his will, but only by Gods will, but the beggars was saved is by his will.
Ephesians 2:4 and 8
You said, "to me it means 'saved' from spiritual death (separation from God)."
That is absolutely right.
We were not saved from anything natural, unlike the blind beggar who was saved only natural.
But it is the second part of your answer which nullifies the election of God.
You said, "we are saved, as the believers referred to in Ephesians ch.2 are because of that belief in Jesus through our faith."
No Brenda, it is the opposite to that.
It is by grace alone, through faith and that faith is not of yourselves. The complete salvation is the GIFT of God, which includes FAITH. So then the whole salvation is not by what what we do, or what we will.
If it would be by OUR faith, we surely would have something to boast about.
You see, it is the 'FREE GIFT of God' which is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Brenda, I'm not trying to be controversial , but I really would like you to see the majesty of the Lord in election.
In every doctrine of the Scriptures God's purpose in election must stand (Rom. 9 and v.11).
I boldly state that if a doctrine does NOT contain election, the doctrine is not true. Also it affects all other doctrines of the Scriptures, Like grace, the free gift, the atonement etc. who are so important to fully understand.
Yes Paul,
I do think we differ in how we think here regarding spiritual sight, or you misunderstand me,because I believe that once you are born again then the scriptures are discerned spiritually. 'But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' 1 Corinthians ch.2 v14. So a person has to be born again to be able to receive spiritual sight, and I believe, and have experienced in my own life,once a person becomes born again then they discern the scriptures spiritually. So that scripture would speak to the newly born 'baby in Christ', in a spiritual way regarding giving them spiritual sight, not to the person who has not been born again. I agree that the natural man, as I once was, cannot come to Jesus for spiritual things, and that he can not come to Jesus except he is called by God. However, as I have already stated I believe that as part of the body of Christ one of the things I have been called to do is evangelize to those who do not know Jesus as their Saviour. One plants, one waters and God adds the increase. As for someone not being able to spiritually die once he has been born again, I think here we differ in our beliefs. There are many 'ifs' regarding salvation and we are told that we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. There is a 'blaspheming of the Holy Spirit' spoken of, and I believe that Ananias and Saphira may have experienced this, and that their story is included in the Bible as a warning to us not to wilfully sin. When you quote 'it is by grace alone, through faith and that faith is not of yourselves', the question arises 'What is faith?' It is the 'substance' of things hoped for, not just 'things hoped for', and I believe that the trial I am in now is revealing to me that to really 'believe' enables that word spoken to be brought into existence. At this moment in time I would say to the Lord 'Lord, help me in my unbelief' and would hope that by doing this the Lord would increase my faith (as the apostles did in Luke ch.17 v.5) and I would be brought into the realm of 'believing is seeing', not 'seeing is believing'. How often do we trust in the Lord to heal us, how often to we believe in the power of God to do what the Bible says He can do? How often do we act on the word spoken to us, not just hear it? Romans ch.9 is simply saying that it is not the Israelites in the flesh that are the children of God, but the spiritual Israelite. Salvation can not be gained through works of the law but through belief in Jesus, which includes learning and obeying. I don't mind Paul if you disagree with what I believe, the main thing is that if we seek, we shall find. We shall all be taught by God if we are willing to learn.
Brenda, the new birth is a free gift from the Lord which is eternal life, meaning that this life is never ending, and that has been given to us as a free gift.
If you would lose this life for whatever circumstances then it wouldn't be ETERNAL and it wouldn't be a FREE GIFT and it would not be by GRACE.
Worst of all, it would make God to be a liar and an Indian-giver and untrustworthy. (An Indian-giver is a person who gives you a gift and then takes it back).
Brenda, for you to fully trust in the Lord, you need to understand election.
You know in your heart that if the Lord Jesus lost only one of whom He loves and has given eternal life as a free gift and then has lost him at the end to eternal death for whatever circumstances, it would be impossible for you to fully trust the Lord. Yes Brenda, IMPOSSIBLE!!
Your walk would be a so called YO YO walk with the Lord, when you feel good you think that you are saved and when you feel bad you think that you might end up in hell and have lost your salvation.
All that is because you don't understand election or predestination. It causes you to preach a God who wants to give everybody a new life, but He somehow can't get His act together to do so.
Instead of ascribing greatness to our saviour Jesus Christ, you present Him to be impotent.
And the forgiveness of sins does not depend only on the shed blood of Jesus Christ, but on the faith and belief of the sinners.
Instead of salvation depending on our saviour Jesus Christ, you will preach that salvation depends on our faith, decision, the performance and the will of the sinners, and the list goes on and on.
It always will be contrary to the Scriptures and the Spirit of the Lord and for this reason I urge you to pray-fully seek the Lord so that He might cause you to see and understand the election of God.
I purposely speak like that, so that you can see the irony of the universal thinking.
Brenda,
Where there is an election, there must be a rejection. We can't have an election without a rejection. One without the other has no meaning. Election demands a rejection, election is division.
We as the Saints have to work out WHY did the Lord elect some and reject others?
WHO are elected and WHO are rejected?
Elected for WHAT and rejected for WHAT?
Every other doctrine depends on the correct understanding of the above questions.
Without election we will not understand God's love. We will always say that God loves everybody, and exclude the fact that God hated Esau.
We believe and say that God wants to save everybody, but somehow He can't do it.
We will always say that God cannot save a man against his will.
And again we will always say that all human beings are the children of God.
And that we have a free will, even though the Scriptures said, that we were captives to Satan and do his will (2 Tim. 2:26).
We think and say that men have a free will, and men's will always prevails, but God's will is not free even though He is willing to save everybody.
It is alarming that all universal doctrines are always contrary to the Scriptures and not many are willing to challenge those teachings.
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I have never gone by a doctrine Paul, only from what the Lord speaks to me from the scriptures. I believe we can build one another up by sharing testimonies and experiences, but I don't believe that any man can say 'Know the Lord', especially when they belong to a denomination that has been formed by man. It is like the difference between leavened bread and unleavened bread. When I look back on my thirty years of knowing the Lord, I can honestly say that my teaching has come from the Holy Spirit enlightening my daily 'manna' to me. I believe that stories such as the Jacob and Esau ones are to spiritually speak to those who are born again as instruction on what to do and what not to do - as in Esau selling his birthright for food, although I don't fully understand this story, but then the secret things belong to God, those revealed belong to us.
Yes Brenda I know that the Lord speaks to you by the Scriptures, but all that which you say, preach and teach is all called doctrines.
Doctrines is that which you interpret from the Scriptures, it can be right or wrong or inconclusive.
The Bible is full of doctrines and statements, but it is your interpretation of those statements which are your doctrines.
Wrong doctrines produce confusion, deceptions, insecurity, transgressions and judgement.
Right doctrines produce understanding, trust, security and salvation.
Let's quote a statement of Jesus, (Mark 12:29) "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one."
Now that statement must have a doctrine attached to it.
There are three different doctrines to that.
The first is that of the universal Christians who say and teach that God is two or three persons, just as taught on the graph of this post.
Jesus is one person of God and the Father is another person of God and the Holy Spirit is the third person in God etc. etc.
The second doctrine is that of the Jehovah Witnesses and of many other Churches who teach that the Lord Jesus is only the Son of God and His Father is the real true God and His name is Jehovah etc. etc.
The third doctrine teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only one true God of the Bible and beside Jesus there is no other God. It is the Lord Jesus who is the one God of spiritual Israel etc. etc.
Brenda, if you quote a statement like Mark 12:29, the quoting would not be a doctrine, the doctrine comes as you explain that statement and it will fit one of those three doctrines above.
The first and the second doctrines are not true, they are false and you need to make every effort not to preach them.
The third doctrine is the only true doctrine of God and you need to preach that just as I do or better.
It is not possible to fully understand and believe the third doctrine and then not condemn the other two doctrines. Remember, there is no middle ground. Either you are for the Lord Jesus Christ or against Him.
This doctrine is the most important doctrine of the entire Bible and is far above all other doctrines and no one should err on that.
Of course I would like you to understand and believe the election or predestination doctrine and many others, for they profit much and are beneficial in our walk with our wonderful Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.
Concerning leaven, I see the leaven to be the part in our teaching which deforms our doctrines (teaching) and makes it false. In the doctrine of God the leaven would be the trinity.
And yes, as a born again believer your teaching does come from the Holy Spirit which is the Lord, but you need to eradicate the leaven within that teaching just as I do.
We all should trim the wick of our lanterns, so that our doctrines shine brightly and light up the path for all of us who walk in this evil dark world. As we trim the wick, the light will shine brighter and the trimming is the cutting off the burned out parts of our doctrines.
Well Brenda, I feel almost bad to correct you on the Jacob and Esau doctrine, but it is for your good if I do so.
Was that the reason for the Lord to hate Esau, because he sold his birthright? If you think that, then please read
Jacobs and Esau,s life and you will see that Esau was a much more honourable man then Jacob.
No Brenda, the story of Jacob and Esau are not written for our instructions, they are written to show the election of God, not by those who will or not will, but by God's sovereign choice in order that election might stand.
As I have said, you need to work first on the doctrine of God, to cut off everything so that only the Lord Jesus remains in that doctrine.
The second is the election doctrine, that one is not easy either, remember, we have an adversary who does not want you to change your thinking, that adversary I call the 'election thief', he cuts off the election in every doctrine you percent. Believe me, he is an expert and the father of lies, but with the help of the Lord you can do all things.
Paul, the only way I can respond to your comment is to pick out certain sentences from it and that have stood out to me:-
'but all that which you say, preach and teach is all called doctrines'
You would have to point a particular thing out that I 'say, preach and teach' before I could answer you here.
'Was that the reason for the Lord to hate Esau, because he sold his birthright?'
I did not say that the Lord hated Esau because he sold his birthright, I have not looked into the story enough to know why He hated Esau. I merely implied Jacob and Esau a person could be taught not to give up their birthright by desiring someone's food. I have to admit that I would have to study that story to understand what it means.
'The first and the second doctrines are not true, they are false and you need to make every effort not to preach them.'
You would have to give me instances of where I am preaching these two doctrines in order for me to discuss this.
'The third doctrine is the only true doctrine of God and you need to preach that just as I do or better.'
I do not really 'preach' anything, I share on my blog. I have answered you before regarding this issue with the scripture ' In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
'In the doctrine of God the leaven would be the trinity'
I do not use the word 'trinity'
'Concerning leaven, I see the leaven to be the part in our teaching which deforms our doctrines (teaching) and makes it false. In the doctrine of God the leaven would be the trinity'
I say again, I have never used the word 'trinity', and neither do I see it in the scriptures.
'but you need to eradicate the leaven within that teaching just as I do'
Show me the 'leaven' within what I say on my blog and I will be able to answer you, and are you trying to make yourself my teacher, by telling me that I should believe the 'doctrine you preach' 'just as you do'?
Brenda, when you pray to the Father through Jesus, or in other words, when you give thanks to the Father in Jesus Name, who is that Father you are talking to?
When you pray, "Father send them Jesus just like you did with me shine the light towards them and change their destiny Cause them to see their saviour Your wonderful precious Son bring them into your kingdom and let your will be done Father how I love you and I want to praise Your name I'll bless the name of Jesus....."
Again, who is that 'Father' you are talking to? And does He also have a Name?
"Amen. No one can come to the Father except through Jesus. ( John ch.14 v.6 ) - our 'Father who art in Heaven' that is."
Who is that Father we have to go to, through Jesus?
Jesus said, 'Our Father who art in heaven, Holy be thy Name'. Please can you tell me His Name?
Paul
He is the Father that Jesus was talking about, and to, while He was on the earth, the God (Spirit) that He spoke of on the cross when He said 'My God, My God why have You forsaken me.'
He is the God who sent Jesus (The Word that was with Him in the beginning who was with God and who was God) into the world. 'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.' John ch.1 v.14, the only person born of a woman, but with the insemination of the Holy Spirit which is God (that is why He is called His only begotten Son). The only One who could cause us to be born of that Spirit which was not given until after He was glorified. ' In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.(But this spoke he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John ch. 7 vs 37 - 39
I did not know Jesus as my Lord until God called me to Him. Jesus said 'No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.' John ch. 6 v.44 (Jesus' words, not mine)
I would not be able to even speak to the Father (God the Spirit) unless Jesus was my mediator. He is the only mediator between man and God 'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;' 1 Timothy ch.2 v.5
I had a vision of being in a lighthouse and the poem came as a result of it and I pray that those who are lost in the world come to know Jesus, and interact with those who do know Him, as I believe I have been brought to do.
Brenda, that is a very good explanation. That is about the best I ever heard.
Now, just to make sure that I totally understand you, the answer to my question 'Jesus said, "Our Father who art in heaven Holy be thy Name".
So then would you agree that the Fathers Name is 'Jesus'? And that it is the Name 'Jesus' which we need to keep Holy?
Paul,
I find it very difficult to answer you because my explanations of things are from scripture and what is said there. All I can really add is that God,( who is spirit,) has made Jesus, (who is the Word who in the beginning was with God and was God,) my Lord. Jesus came to earth in the form of a man ('And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'), and before He left this earth said 'And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counsellor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever—'John ch. 14 v.16. I am now part of the body of Christ on earth, He is the head, and have been given gifts, as others have to spread the gospel of salvation.
Yes Brenda, your explanations are from Scriptures, but so are my questions.
The difference between you and me is that I close the back door so that no other identity can sneak though that back door and proclaim itself to be God.
It always troubles me when the believers (including you) don't call Jesus 'Abba Father'.
I then ask, if Jesus is not their Abba Father, then who is their Father who is in heaven?
I think that is a legitimate question, especially when Jesus said to keep the Fathers Name Holy.
How can anyone keep the Fathers Name Holy, if they don't know His Name?
And how can a new convert know God if we don't tell them His Name?
How can we preach the gospel of God, if we don't know who it is?
As in my opinion, the gospel of God is more important then the gospel of salvation.
You see, if you say that Jesus is our God, but not our Father, then necessity demands that you believe in two gods and you are called a polytheist, but we supposed to be monotheist, believing in ONE God Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yes there are differences between you and me Paul. I have to say that a lot of what you' preach' is not 'scripture' but appears to be 'doctrine', possibly 'puritan'doctrine - I don't know.
I could go over and over again telling you what I believe but all you seem to want to do is judge me by what is your own plumb line.
There is no way a new convert can be taught about God, salvation or anything else by one person. If we are in Christ there are many parts to the body, and each part has to do what it is called to do.
The Father in Heaven to me is the Father in Heaven that Jesus called 'Father', the one who begot the Son Jesus, in order that He should be crucified.
I don't think we shall ever agree on certain issues, but it does not really matter. I am to do what I am called to do, as are all others who are called to Jesus.
No Brenda, I do not judge you according to my own plumb line or the puritan doctrines.
Remember that most of the puritans believed and tout the trinity doctrine.
My plumb line is the Lord Jesus Christ and I measure everything against Him alone. He is my foundation and my cornerstone, the stone that the builders rejected, they have replaced Him with another and call that 'other' Father.
You said, "The Father in Heaven to me is the Father in Heaven that Jesus called 'Father',"
If the Lord Jesus claims to be the Father (John 14:9 + Isa.9:6 + John 12:45 and many more), do you think that Jesus is calling someone else Father?
We both know that if the Lord Jesus would call anyone else Father, other than Himself, then He would not be the 'Lord, God, Alpha, Omega, the Almighty'.
When the Lord Jesus swore, He had to swear by Himself, because there was no greater one than Himself (Jer. 22:5).
If there would have been another person also a God, surely He would have sworn by that other person, don't you think so?
And in an other passage Jesus said, 'I thought you would call me 'Father' (Jer. 3;19).
Isaiah boldly said, 'You O Lord are our Father and our Redeemer' (Isa. 63:16). Do you think that the Redeemer had a Father?
No Brenda, absolutely not!
Because you don't agree with me on that, it makes it very difficult for you to understand the passage of the Bible you have quoted.
John 14:16
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever".
That is not Jesus, but the Father who will give you another person to be with you.
Because you don't believe that Jesus is the Father, then necessity demands that you believe in a third person the Counselor whom the Father will give to be with you forever.
By no stretch of imagination you would be called a trinitarian, whether you think so or not.
If Jesus is God and the Father is also God and here we have ANOTHER, the Counselor also God, then there are three God's (a trinity) and the Scriptures can't be broken.
Why is it that we should not agree on this most important issue?
After all, it is the Lord's will that we ALL come to an agreement in doctrine.
You cannot preach one thing and I another thing opposing to you, a house cannot be divided against it self.
As for me, if I have been convicted by a brother or a sister or the Spirit of the Lord and the Scriptures, of having and entertaining a false teaching, then I quickly repent and accept the teaching which is true. It would be silly for me to go on in my own futile way of thinking and suffer the consequences of my pride.
In Jeremiah ch. 22 v.5 the people that Jeremiah was speaking to did not even know the name 'Jesus'. Their God was know by various names, including 'I am'. When I read that verse as a person who is born again of Gods Holy Spirit (God is Spirit) I understand it spiritually, as a spiritual Israelite (as in the church), and the LORD being Jesus. That does not take away the fact that other scripture says 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the word was God. I discern the scriptures spiritually as they are shown to me. The scriptures are a vocabulary to me and just as I would not say 'yes' and 'no' at the same time, those scriptures speak to me daily as the voice of God who is Spirit, and bring me to mature in Christ. As for what most 'puritans' believe, I neither know nor want to know, because it is a doctrine that is taught by man. As for 'By no stretch of imagination you would be called a trinitarian, whether you think so or not' I do not mind what people call me, they called Jesus many things, and He said that we will be hated for His names sake, and I am not going to change the words that He speaks in the scriptures. Yes we can be convicted by what comes out of a brother or sisters mouth - providing it is scriptural, or the Spirit showing me through the word and then we know that we have to change. We all have to work out our own salvation.
That's right Brenda, Jeremiah and all the people of the Old Testament did not know the name 'Jesus', that is because God's Name had not been given at that time.
The first time the Lords Name was revealed in Luke 1:31, when the angel said to Mary, you shall give Him the Name JESUS.
God never had another Name, other than Jesus.
The problem we have in most Christian Churches is that they think that the God of the Old Testament was a different person to the God of the New Testament. In the OT. it was the Father whom they call 'Jehovah or Yahweh, and in the NT. it was another person the Son whom they call Jesus. All this kind of teaching is trinitarian, un-Biblical and not true.
You have quoted John 1:1. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
I know that you did not explain what that means, you have left it open for interpretation, and the Word of God is not for private interpretation.
As a minister of Christ you ought to expand and explain what it means, just quoting a verse is not good enough.
Now, because you do not believe that Jesus is the Father, therefore you would interpret John 1:1 just like all trinitarians do.
You would say that in the beginning was the Word, which is Jesus, and Jesus was with this other person called God who is the Father, and the Word which is Jesus was also God, or a God.
Brenda, this is trinitarian thought and interpretation, it makes no difference whether they rearrange the wording and give it another flavour or not. A lie is a lie and every lie is darkness and the Spirit says that darkness does not understand it (John 1:5) . In fact it makes it impossible for them to understand most passages from the Scriptures.
This is the little leaven which leavens the whole lump, and it is you and everyone of us who holds the testimony of Jesus Christ's duty to remove that leaven from our teaching.
You and I both have breath, spirit and are able to speak words. So does God. Just the same as I would not say I am three persons because I have spirit, breath and am able to speak, neither would I say that about God. He breathed the breath of life into the first Adam that He formed from the earth. The second Adam (Jesus) is able to give us the Spirit of God which could not be given until after Jesus was crucified. That Spirit enables me to talk with God and become a child of God,and thereby have eternal life. 'And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.' John ch.17 v.3. I could not know God and Jesus while I was the old creation because I, just the same as the first Adam was, was denied eating from the tree of life. I love the way that 'All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.' 2 Timothy ch.3. vs. 16,17.
Brenda, who breathed the breath of life into Adam?
If you say 'God', I would say yes, but that is just not good enough, since every devil knows and believes that God breathed life into Adam.
But you as a believer in Jesus Christ ought to proclaim Jesus Christ to be that God who breathed life into Adam.
What troubles me most, I think that you don't really believe that it was Jesus who breathed life into Adam. You still think that it was this unknowable God who breathed life into Adam and later He sent Jesus into this world.
Well Brenda, this is far from the truth.
You said, "I could not know God and Jesus while.........."
Do you think that God is another person, other than Jesus?
I f you don't know Jesus, you don't know God.
If you say that you know Jesus, then you would know that Jesus is that 'God', and that beside Him there is no other who is also God.
God is not divided into TWO.
God is ONE, it is Jesus Christ our Lord and everything was made by Him, through Him and for Him, and nothing came into being apart from Him.
In the entire Bible when the word God is said, it refers to Jesus Christ.
John 17:3 Jesus prays, "that they may know you the only true God".
Here Jesus is referring to Himself as the only true God, and that is confirmed in 1 John 5;20.
It is most important that you believe that the Lord Jesus is the only true God, and if you don't you will die in your sins.
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Paul,
I am not going to go on and on speaking scripture to you. I think all that I have to say is contained in all the comments that I have left on this post. It appears to me that you would never believe that anybody who thinks differently to your doctrine could be saved anyway. It is the Holy Spirit that convinces and convicts, so I think I had better leave all the convincing and convicting to the Holy Spirit, for both of us. I leave you with Acts ch. 2 vs.35,36 ‘The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’
'Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified. At least it appears that the apostle Peter thinks the same way as I do.
Brenda, yes you are speaking scriptures to me, but I am waiting for you to interpret those passages without ending up with two or three God-persons or identities.
I need an explanation from you which does not teach that there are two Gods or two God-persons.
Acts 2:34-36
Are you suggesting that one Lord is saying to another Lord, 'sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool'?
How many Lords do you think there are?
Do you think that there are two God-identities having a dialogue with one and another?
No Brenda, I know that you can see that there is a great problem and you need to deal with that in your own understanding, otherwise your testimony concerning God is not true, and you have run in vain.
Look I understand that the greatest hurdle for a professing Christian is to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the only God and beside Him is no other.
In the days of the Lord, what would you have said or thought, If I would have introduced you to the carpenters son from Nazareth and said, 'Brenda, I like you to meet Jesus, he is the Lord God the Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth.'
I really would have liked to see your face, and from the expression of your face I could have told you what you were thinking. :-)
That did happen, but two thousand years later and I still preach on the highway and byway, in season and out of season, convenient or not convenient Jesus Christ to be the only Lord and God so that all who would believe in Him would be saved.
The apostle Peter was an Israelite and no Israelite ever believed that God is two persons.
This doctrine of multiple persons in God was taught after the rise of the antichrist the pope of Rome in about AD 80-90.
Paul,
the apostle Peter when he spoke those words was an 'Israelite' turned follower of Christ and those words are clearly written that he spoke.
Trinity Believers,
Before I begin, I expect all believers who read the next two comments to do exactly what Acts 17:11 tells us to do.
“To receive the message with all eagerness of the heart, but diligently search the scriptures to determine whether it is true.”
If you don’t, then we all know what camp you are in.
The Sh’ma tells us that The Lord our God is one God. However, he is not finite.
As a matter of fact, the Word of God tells us that he is limitless and inhabits eternity.
The problem with what I’ve been reading here is that you are attempting to explain God in natural terms and by traditional and erroneous church thought. I think we can all agree that God is supernatural and that the church is not quite what God planned it to be.
Let’s look at the concept of the Trinity. Can God exist as three different personalities, beings or as a Trinity? The answer is absolutely yes. He is God. He can do whatever he wants. However, does he? No. Why? Because God reveals himself, his way and his will within his Word. God tells us that he doesn’t do anything without first revealing it to his prophets. Amos 3:7.
I challenge you to find the concept of the Trinity within the scriptures. By the way, when the scriptures are referenced in the Bible, it refers to the Torah, not the B’rit Hadashah or New Testament. After that, if you still believe in a three in one God, then call him a liar and an untrustworthy God. Obviously, he is not.
The concept of the Trinity is not only not biblical, but it limits God. It defines God as a limited being, not the infinite Master of the Universe that he is.
It has been established that God enjoys an existence that enterains at least ten dimensions. The Mishneh Torah tells us that. It is the only way that Y’shua (Jesus) could have passed through the walls of the upper room.
With that established, instead of the Trinity, do we now refer to him as the Decagonity. Obviously, that’s absurd. Then why do you hang on to erroneous church teachings.
I challenge to be led into all truth by God’s Ruach Hokadesh, God’s Holy Spirit, not by church leaders that most likely have agendas of their own. John 16:13.
Paul.
You are correct about the Trinity concept but, unfortunately, you have the same issue that most Christians and non Christians alike have. You do not look at God through spiritual eyes but tradition. This is the same problem that my Jewish brothers had at the time of Y’shua.
Y’shua is not God. Y’shua is one with God. Sounds confusing but looking at it from a multidimensional view resolves the issue.
Let’s start at the beginning and I will try to make it concise. Man sinned and fell from Grace, which caused a cosmic rift between man and God. To reconcile this divide, God required a flawless sacrifice of the likes of the one who committed the infraction, otherwise a perfect human sacrifice.
The problem with that is there was not and never could be a perfect human since disobedience now resided in the very nature of man. We also later find that the sin nature is carried on by the males of our species. Therefore, the sin offering must be 100% man. Can I assume that we are in agreement so far? I hope your are shaking your head in agreement.
Since no man, born of a man/woman union, is perfect, then God had to provide a solution. That solution was through an undefiled woman impregnated by the spirit, making the offspring 100% man in the flesh, 100% God in the Spirit, the son of man, the son of God. Thomas recognized this when he proclaimed him, My Lord and My God.
If that doesn’t do it for you, then how about answering a couple of questions. If Y’shua is our Father, then:
Why did he tell his apostles that he must go so the Spirit of Truth can come and lead them into all truth? In your version of the truth, that verse could have been read, “I must go so I can come back to lead you into all truth” John 16:13
Who is presently standing at the right hand of the father? Y’shua. Once again, in your version, the Father is standing beside himself. It doesn’t work.
This also resolves the apparent discrepancy found in Psalm 110:1, Acts 2:33-35 and Acts 7:55
There's a lot more, but I didn't want to go too long.
Finally, it’s not about whether you are wrong and I am right. It’s all about removing any obstacle that prevents you from getting closer to God, your efication. That is my goal,
nothing else.
Yes Brenda, God did make Jesus both Lord and Christ.
But remember, it's a statement.
What does that mean to you?
Do you think that one person called 'God' made another person called 'Jesus' both Lord and Christ?
If you think so, then the Lord Jesus is NOT 'God', but the other person whom you call 'God'.
What does the title 'LORD' mean to you?
And what does the title 'CHRIST' mean to you?
No Doubt,
I appreciate your challenge brother.
And no doubt that we are in different camps my friend.
But I agree with you that we have eagerly received the message and we will search the Scriptures to expand our understanding concerning the knowledge of God.
We have three different camps ;
The first is the trinitarian camp who teach that God is three persons in one God, as on the post chart (graph).
They say that the Father is one person who is called God and Jesus is another person also called God and the Holy Spirit is the third person also called God and all three together they are one God. What ever that means.
Simply, they divide God into three persons or identities.
The second camp are those who teach what the Bible and I and whosoever believes in Jesus Christ teaches that God is ONE person Jesus Christ the Lord.
He alone is the Lord God the Almighty, He is the FATHER, just as He has said (John 10:30), and the SON, and the Holy Spirit just as the Scriptures said (2 Cor. 3:17).
To all of us who believe in Jesus Christ is but ONE God and that is the Father (1 Cor. 8:6) Jesus Christ our Lord and beside Him is no other, perhaps I say that again, NO OTHER!
The third camp is yours my friend.
You said that God can exist as three different personalities.
Absolutely not! The Lord does not have a split personality or a multiple personality disorder.
Brother, we believe that the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation is the Scriptures and the Word of God and nothing else.
In the English language and in every English Bible the Lord Jesus is called 'JESUS' and not Y'shua.
Everyone who blasphemes the Name of God in English blasphemes the Name JESUS CHRIST and never Y'shah, and there is no other name given in heaven and on earth and under the earth whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12), Yes Jesus!
Why you don't like to call God's Name JESUS?
Are you ashamed of His Name?
I have noticed in your blog-posts that you have never mentioned God's Name.
You call 'God' by His title 'God', just like every Muslim and all unbelievers do.
Well my brother, that is not acceptable to me and to the one I represent to be the Lord God the Almighty Jesus Christ our Lord the only God (Jude 8:25) and God over all (Rom. 9:5).
You say that you believe in God, but so does every demon and they tremble.
Perhaps you can see that you are in the WRONG camp, and I invite you come into the camp of our Lord Jesus Christ and believe in Him and then you shall be saved, believe not, you shall be damned.
I am willing to help you to navigate through all those difficult Scripture passaged you do not yet understand.
No Doubt, can I ask you a personal question.
Did you ever had a new birth experience? Or did you just decided to believe in God and have joined a church because it's a sensible thing to do?
You said it yourself Paul, 'God did make Jesus Lord.' Which God are you now talking about Paul? Lord means the One whom I serve. I can not come close to God while I am in sin, Jesus is the mediator between God and myself. Christ means 'anointed One' (anointed by God His Father). God is Spirit, and that is who Fathered Jesus the man child. It was the beginning of mankind being able to become 'children of God' as in 'born of the Spirit'. Eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ the Word of God.
Ok, you said, "Who is presently standing at the right hand of the father? Y’shua. Once again, in your version, the Father is standing beside himself. It doesn’t work."
Well my brother, you need to believe in Jesus and not in Y'shua to be able to understand that passage.
(John 16:25) Jesus said, "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father."
Do you believe what Jesus has said?
If you don't believe that, then you cannot understand that passage.
Ok, Because the Lord Jesus is the Father just as He has said, therefore when He speaks about His Father He ALWAYS speaks FIGURATIVELY which is metaphorically.
Jesus Christ is the Lord God who became a man, and as a man He has to speak figuratively about His title 'God', 'Father', 'Spirit'.
(Acts 7:55-56) Is a metaphor, saying that the son of man Jesus Christ is equal to God, is one with God, is the Lord God the Almighty. And for that reason they stoned Stephen to death.
I know my brother that is not your testimony, but surely it is Stephen's and it is mine.
You said, "Why did he tell his apostles that he must go so the Spirit of Truth can come and lead them into all truth? In your version of the truth, that verse could have been read, 'I must go so I can come back to lead you into all truth' John 16:13".
Yes that's right! Jesus the man (flesh) had to get out of the road so that the Lord Jesus could come in the Holy Spirit and make His abode in you and lead you into all the truth.
Brenda, If Jesus is God, then it is Jesus who has declared Himself to be Lord and Christ and not another person who is called 'God'.
If God, which is Jesus made His abode in you, then it is God who lives in you and there will never be a separation or division between you and God, regardless of your sins.
Do you believe that Jesus has forgiven all of your sins?
Brenda, when you said "Eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ the Word of God."
I hope you don't believe that you need to know two person, God and Jesus to have eternal life?
That verse said in other words, 'eternal life is to know that Jesus Christ is that only God.'
Paul, there are many things that do not add up to the carnal mind, as in Genesis ch.3 v.22 - And the Lord God said 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.' The word 'us' indicates that God is speaking to someone, and the fact that He says that eating from the tree of life causes man to live for ever indicates that Adam would have had to live in Paradise and eat of the tree of life to have eternal life. Ephesians ch. 2 v. 6 'And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,' appears to put us spiritually back in the third Heaven, eating from the 'tree of life'(Jesus) because we have to have our daily 'manna', the word of God.
Paul, after looking at your last but one answer to No Doubt, can I too ask you what kind of new birth experience did you have?
Paul,
1. First of all, I want to make sure your understand that I am not saying these things to upset you ,which is evident that I have. Again, it is not my intent.
My only intent is to provide you with a non-gentile, non-Jewish, non-humanistic way of looking at the Word of God for your edification, the way that God intended before it was defiled. You have to admit that Satan has done a fantastic job at infiltrating Basar Meshiach, the Body of Christ, if you prefer.
2. This brings up one of your questions. Am I ashamed of the name of Jesus, the English version of Y'shua's true Hebraic name?
No, Y’shua, Jesus, is my Salvation, the Word of God, the Perfect Sacrifice for our sins, the Window through which we see God. No, I am no ashamed of the name of Jesus, I just like to stay close to pure as possible. No, I am not proclaiming that I am perfect, but God's Word, Y'shua is. I will not argue semantics with you. As I matter of Fact, I will not argue anything with you, but only do my job. My job is to provide you with the Truth and let God’s Holy Spirit guide you into the Truth. However, if you are offended by Y'shua, I will use the name, Jesus. Just say the word. Until then, I will assume that I misunderstood you and you are not ashamed of God.
3. Talking of a misunderstanding.
When you stated,
“The third camp is yours my friend.
You said that God can exist as three different personalities.”
Absolutely not! The Lord does not have a split personality or a multiple personality disorder.
I will not discuss this with you because you obviously, either misread, misunderstood or deliberately took it out of context, unless you are saying that God is limited and cannot do whatever he wants to do. If you are looking little befuddled at this, please reread my post, in context, and get back with me.
CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST
4. “In the English language and in every English Bible the Lord Jesus is called 'JESUS' and not Y'shua.
Everyone who blasphemes the Name of God in English blasphemes the Name JESUS CHRIST and never Y'shah, and there is no other name given in heaven and on earth and under the earth whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12), Yes Jesus!”
Before we discuss this, you do realize the Word of God was originally in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? I write to you in English out of respect to you. For you to imply that the original text , the Word of God, Y’shua is blasphemy is, in itself, blasphemy. I hope I misunderstood. I must remind you that the only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the God’s Holy Spirit, which inspired the original text, the Word of God.
As for the name Jesus, it is a transliteration of the Hebrew Y’shua. Actually, it does not transliterate into Greek exactly. There are letters in Hebrew that are simply not there in Greek. In some Greek, translations, it is rendered as Joshua instead of Jesus because that is the name readers will be familiar with. That "Joshua" transliterates as "Jesu"s is easy to see when you examine the respective alphabets. Even though I would gladly use Jesus to reference Y’shua for your sake, it is NOT his name and the English Bible is a translated interpretation of God’s Word.
5. You said, “You say that you believe in God, but so does every demon and they tremble.”
I will take this as a statement of fact that I do believe in God and that you are not throwing me with the likes of the demons. I say this because otherwise it sounds like you doubt my salvation along with what I am teaching you. Let me remind you that Y’shua said “Judge not, lest you be Judged”. It is ok to doubt God’s teaching but not my salvation. You can even continue to blaspheme Y’shua, but not my position as a B’nai Elohim. That is even in your English version.
6. You wrote: “No Doubt, can I ask you a personal question.
Did you ever had a new birth experience? Or did you just decided to believe in God and have joined a church because it's a sensible thing to do? “
Interesting question. Fall on your hands and knees, close your eyes and prostrate yourself before God. Praise him and worship him and ask him your question and you will know the answer to your question. God will lead you into all Truth.
I will pray for you….please pray for me. Shalom Aleichem.
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Paul,
I took the time to sit down and read some of your blog. It states that you looked at everybody's doctrine and decided to make one of your own instead. Is this correct?
If so, I believe that you are on the right track towards God's true doctrine, because so many doctrines within the church today are a little off kelter or plainly false.
Both you and I refuse the doctrine of the Trinitarians. We believe in one God. The only difference is the fact that you have not been able to look beyond the time space dimension that we live in.
I do believe, after much prayer the past couple days concerning you, that your eyes will be open eventually. However, I don't believe your lack of understanding, concerning the nature of God, will get in the way of your salvation. As always, your salvational position in the Lord is between you and God.
As I read your blog and continue to read it, I become growingly concerned about your misquoting of Scripture. Maybe misquoting is too strong of a word. I apologize. What English interpretation of the original scriptures do you read? And do you compare it to the original scriptures on a regular basis?
Finally, I would like to know why you feel the need to be so abrasive to anyone that has even the slightest difference of interpretation than you?
I know that the written word fails to convey the sentiment or emotion of the writer. So maybe, if we begin to get to know each other better, we will be able to to converse better and we will both learn something
Brenda, yes the carnal mind does not understand, but we now have the mind of Christ and we understand the whole Scriptures, for that is the will of the Lord. The Bible is written by the Lord so that we can understand it, and we understand the Scripture by the Spirit who lives in us as you already know.
(Gen.3:22) "And the Lord God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
First we have to establish, who is that 'Lord God'?
I say that this 'Lord God' is the Lord Jesus Christ. If you do not agree with me, then you have a serious problem, and you need to deal with that.
You see, if you transgress on that, you have transgressed the first commandment of the Lord.
The second part, 'the man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.'
Here the Lord Jesus makes a statement, that the 'man' has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
The 'us' does not mean 'us gods', but one of us 'MAN', the fallen man.
The third part, 'He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.'
This is a metaphor of predestination. Who tells us that man cannot reach out and take salvation by his will and live forever, or have eternal life. Salvation is by GRACE alone and not what a man can do, or will do.
The tree of life (metaphorically) is the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, just as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the beast, the serpent or the devil. And man was barred from partaking (or eating) from the tree of life (Jesus) till after the new birth which is salvation from the dead unto life forever.
That's what grace is all about.
After Adam was born again by grace, he was told to eat and drink of the blood and the body of Jesus Christ just like you and I and all of us who are born again, (the Lord's supper), or our daily 'manna' as you have said.
Continued in the next comment.
My new birth experience in short.
Before I was born again, I did not know that I needed to be saved, or to be born again, in fact everything was good for me and I was quite happy the way I was.
In early February 1982 I was by myself in my front yard at morning 9 am looking intently at one of our most beautiful butterflies we have here in Australia. I observed that butterfly for a while and by carefully examining it, I knew for sure that this butterfly did not evolve through millions of years from a one cell into a butterfly etc.
I thought that there must be an intelligent designer and maker of that butterfly. But who is that?
A God?
In short, I thought that if that God whoever it is, is so smart and imaginative to design and make a butterfly like that and give it life and eyes and everything else, he for sure would be able to turn up and stand in front of me and make himself known to me.
Why not? If he is that good to make a Zebra, a Giraffe, a Lion or even a fly, why would it not be possible for him to stand in front of me?
I really wanted to know this God who could make all this things around me.
All I had was a catholic knowledge of God, therefore I called out to the Lord with a determination to know him and with a loud voice for a period of about two hours till the Lord Jesus tuned up and made Himself known to me.
It would take too many pages to tell you of my dramatic new birth experience.
I finally knew this living God personally and I never would have suspected that it is the Lord Jesus Christ and I can assure you that there wasn't anybody else there who is also a God.
Numerous powerful things has happened to me as you can imagine when you meet the only true God in person and in power.
I knew that I was born again and so did all my neighbourhood and my local town at that time.
32 years I have been walking closely with my Lord and at last I have an Anchor for for my soul and a saviour, helper, counsellor, comforter, Father and deliverer. This is my Jesus and in Him will I trust.
Well my brother N.D. I know that you don't want to offend me and I am not easily offended, a little argument does not hurt anyone, perhaps it does us a lot of good. :-)
I'm not sure where to start. In many things you have said I agree with you and in others I don't.
Concerning the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek language I have a problem. Most people I know don't speak those languages fluently or not at all, that is apart from the Greek language. But we both and all who read this comments surely speak English, although English is not my mother tongue, I speak Swiss, which is related to German and I speak fluent German, which we call 'High German' and also the unknown tongue (1 Cor. 14:2) which is more important to speak than Aramaic or any other language .:-)
But I always say that the Bible, the Word of God is NOT Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek or any other language, but SPIRIT and TRUTH. If it would be a particular language, then those who speak that particular language would have the monopoly over the Word of God and we would need to submit to their interpretation.
No my brother!
The Bible is there for everyone to read, to obey and to believe. If they believe, they will be saved, if they do not believe, they are already condemned, that is because they don't believe.
We both know that 'ONE' means one, it does not and cannot mean THREE.
If the Lord your God is ONE, then we don't need to know what it means in Aramaic.
If the Lord your God is ONE, then we need to know which ONE? And not which THREE.
If His Name is JESUS, then we ought to call Him JESUS, and not any other name, whatever that name may be.
To me the TRUTH is JESUS just as the Scriptures say (John 14:6) and not a diminished name who sounds different. Y'shua is not an offence to people, but Jesus is.
Yes my brother, it is as you have said that Satan has done a fantastic job to infiltrating the Church, I'm not sure whether the Body of Christ, since the Lord Jesus has said that 'Satan has nothing in Me'.
You see my brother, that which we preach must be simple so that every person can easily understand without needing a degree in theology or asking those religious clergy.
A question; do you believe that God can be three different persons? Or have three different personalities?
I look at Jesus and I see ONE person with ONE personality. Now, is it possible for Jesus (who I proclaim to be the only GOD) be three persons, or have three different personalities? Judge for yourself whether God can do all things, not unless you think that there is another person next to Jesus who is also a God.
Continued in next comment.
In P4 you said,"Even though I would gladly use Jesus to reference Y’shua for your sake, it is NOT his name and the English Bible is a translated interpretation of God’s Word."
Yes, but so is every translation. The Bible is made up of lots of different texts carried together into one Book, called the written Word of God, it is 100% reliable and without fault, suitable for training in righteousness and correction in doctrine.
(I acknowledge that Y'shua and other Hebrew names are used in the Jewish Bible by Stern.
As I have said that the name Y'shua is not in the English Bible and may not even be in the English language.
We both refuse the doctrine of the trinity, but if you do, then would you agree with me that this God of the Bible is the Lord Jesus Christ alone the creator of heaven and earth?
You said, "What English interpretation of the original scriptures do you read? And do you compare it to the original scriptures on a regular basis?"
No my brother I don't. There are not many people who have access to the original Scriptures, and who is to say which ones are the originals, they all are copies of copies.
If people don't understand the Scriptures in plain English, do you think they will understand them in Hebrew?
If they did not listen to the Hebrew children who preached the same gospel as I, do you think the will listen to me?
So then, the Bible is good enough for me.
You said, "I would like to know why you feel the need to be so abrasive to anyone that has even the slightest difference of interpretation than you?"
Yes I know that I have a problem in that and I wrestle with that, I also know what the Word of God says about that. For my sake I'd rather be silent, but for your sake I must speak, the Lord commanded me to do so, even to use stronger language if necessarily, except I'm not allowed to call anyone a 'HERETIC'.
When I asked the Lord why I am not allowed to say that, He said, 'with that word they have murdered your brothers and sisters throughout the centuries and burned them at the stake'.
I have been called heretic on many blogs, but I have never called anyone a heretic.
Well since something new was added I will jump back in.
I must be a different type of Trinitarian than the ones you both mention then. I thought they were all like me. Or maybe "we" are being misrepresentated.
I think if we put all of our ideas together we have the right picture.
There is ONLY ONE GOD. We all agree in that. We disagree in how He mainifests Himself to the world. Paul says it's all about titles only. I say it's all about personnas and roles. No Doubt says it's all about dimensions and greatness over man. Brenda seems to be somewhere in between but closer to my stance. Maybe it is all of them, in a way.
But, to make my stance more clear. I also feel God can transcend all dimensions. He rules time. He rules space. He rules matter. I am not limmiting Him. But it goes back to what I feel He manifests Himself as to us. I disagree in that i think it is a biblical concept. Two verses stcik out for this: Acts 10:38 and Matthew 28:19. Acts talks about how God annointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit. All three are mentioned. Nothing more, nothing less. Matthew says we are baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Again, the three, nothing more, nothing less. YET ALL THE SAME PERSON.
That does not mean God is only works on a 3-D basis. It only means He manifests Himself to us in the terms we would know. He is also called the bread of life but He does not manifests Himself as actual bread. Same with a gate. However He is a father. He is a son. And He is a holy spirit.
Now about the language deal.
It doesnt matter what language you read the scripture in but No Doubt has a point that the original language has the original meaning. English loses its emphasis. We have phrases that others do not use and there fore it ould not make sense to others. So even though it may be plain English it would not mean what it says. Cool? Am I referring to the temperature or how I feel about the topic? When Spanish say "de nada". I can translate it as you are welcome but in reality it means of nothing. Plain Spanish would not make sense to me.
Yeshua, Joshua, Yhoshua, Iesous, Jesus=====all the same.
Paul, Paolo, Raul==== all the same
Timothy, Timoteo, Timotheos =====all the same.
But depending on where I was born it might make me feel better.
No Doubt feels it is more respectful to use the name His mother would have called Him.
This is an argument over semantics and should not be in thi topic. Cool? (feeling, not temperature)
Let's agree to move forward and try our best not to use inflammatory words, phrases etc. If a word used is offensive, then we agree that it was not intended as such and just move on.
Addressing the Scriptures
In engineering, we have a standard from which we build all tools. If at any point, we doubt the accuracy of the tool, we go back to the standard for calibration or clarification.
The same thing can be said about the Bible. God has preserved his Word in the original tongue to be used as the standard. Any translation, after that, must look back to the Standard for clarification or calibration.
Even though the standard is in a foreign tongue, we have God given tools in which to interpret. This is done in the same way that you learned English while growing up as a German speaking Swiss.
There are words and idioms in every language that cannot be exactly translated into another language. Therefore, concepts, in the translated word, are used. Over time, these translated words require recalibration or a modern translation. At that time, the reader must go back to the standard or, in this case, the original tongue.
I think we can agree that Satan has done a great job in defiling God's word through some, not all, but some of the versions available today.
Also, you miss out on so many treasures that can be found only in the original tongue. A great example of this is where the Gospel first appears within the Bible. This can only be found by interpreting the genealogy from Adam to Noah into their true meaning.
We all know that Adam means man and Noah means comfort or peace. Interpreting all the names from Adam to Noah, we get the following.
Man is appointed mortal sorrow, but the Blessed God shall come down, teaching that his death shall bring comfort or peace.
Jewels like us are hidden by God in order for his people to search them out and be edified. It’s a special gift given by God to those who truly and deeply want to know their God and Savior. In Proverbs 25:2, we are told exactly that.
“It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.”
Thanks Tim for jumping back in the ring.
You said,"There is ONLY ONE GOD. We all agree in that."
No my brother, absolutely not!
You say that as a cliche, and when I ask you 'which one'? You say 'Jesus AND...' !!!
I say to the contrary, 'Jesus ALONE'!
That is not semantics.
You say that Jesus is God and the Father is also God and the two are one,
I say that the title 'Father' belongs to Jesus.
You say that the Father is a separate identity from Jesus, therefore you can pray to the Father through Jesus.
Because you believe that, you are transgressing the first Commandment of the Lord.
Actually it is a lot worse, you have left the back door open so that Satan can enter and proclaiming himself to be that 'Father' God.
Just look at the Antichrist church the originator of the trinity, the Pope has already taken that TITLE, the 'HOLY FATHER' the Pope.
That is the title which belongs to JESUS and NOT to the Pope, or to Jehovah.
In the Scripture it is forbidden to call anyone FATHER except your Father who is in heaven (Mat.23:9-10).
Now, If that FATHER is not Jesus, then WHO is it??
If there is anyone else who is the Father, then Jesus Christ is an imposter and I have preached in vain.
But the mystery of God namely Christ has been revealed to me and I do not lie (Col. 1:26-27).
I know my brother that you can see the error of the trinity. But you still are a trinitarian and you need to denounce, yes publicly denounce that doctrine and preach actively against the trinity and then promote and proclaim the Lord Jesus Christ as the only true God forever praised.
Continued in next comment.
You said,"Matthew says we are baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Again, the three, nothing more, nothing less. YET ALL THE SAME PERSON."
The same person, WHO? Tom, Dick and Harry?
I have explained that to you on your blog.
You need to believe in Jesus and not in me or your pastor!
It seems to me that you don't read the Scriptures properly, you need to carefully listen what the Lord Jesus is saying and then you need to believe it and do it.
(Mat.28;19) 'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, BAPTIZING them into the NAME of the FATHER'
What is Jesus saying here? He is saying that you need to baptize a convert into the NAME of the Father.
Note, Jesus does NOT say 'NAMES' as in many, He said NAME! Only one NAME.
Before you can baptize anyone into the NAME of the FATHER you first need to know the NAME of the Father.
Because you don't know the NAME of the Father and neither do you believe that the Fathers Name is Jesus (John 17:11), therefore you transgressing the first commandment of the Lord.
You, just like ALL trinitarians baptize a convert into a TITLE which is 'Father', contrary to what Jesus has commanded you.
Baptizing means 'IMMERSING' or submersing or totally saturating, and no! you don't need to know what it means in Greek, you need to know what the Lord Jesus is telling you to do, in English.
(Mat. 28:19) Jesus is still speaking, 'and the SON'
Jesus is saying that you ought to baptize or immerse a convert into the NAME of the SON.
Jesus does NOT say that you ought to immerse a convert into a TITLE called SON.
So then, the NAME of the SON is 'JESUS', and NOT 'Y'shuah' or any other name.
Why the Name Jesus? Answer, because 'Jesus' is the ONLY Name which is an offence to the unbelievers, and there is no other name given whereby they must be saved.
(Mat. 28:19) Jesus is still speaking, 'and the Holy Spirit'.
Jesus is saying that you ought to immerse the convert into the NAME of the Holy Spirit, and NOT into a TITLE called 'Holy Spirit.
Before you can immerse a person into the Name of the Holy Spirit, you first need to know the NAME of the Holy Spirit.
The Bible tells you that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17), so then the Name of the Holy Spirit is JESUS.
Here you can see, the title Father and the title Son and the title Holy Spirit belong to JESUS which is ONE Name just as Jesus has said in (Mat. 28:19) and you ought to immerse every disciple into that Name 'JESUS' and NOT into WATER! Please read it again, it doesn't say 'WATER', it says 'NAME'!!
Plainly, you must immerse and saturate a disciple with the Name JESUS.
So when you baptize a disciple of the Lord publicly into WATER, which is symbolical, you tell the bystanders that you immerse that disciple into the Name 'JESUS Christ'.
Please read how they baptized in Acts 10:48 and 18:5.
In (Mat. 28:20) the Lord Jesus tells you to teach them everything He has commanded just as I do, or better.
I always can tell who is baptized into His Name and who is not. You also can tell, just read their posts and comments on their blogs and then you'd know.
Do you think that someone who hardly mention the Name 'Jesus' is immersed (baptized) into His Name?
Do you think that someone who diminishes His Name is baptized into His Name? Judge for yourself.
Brother Tim, I want you to know that I am not against you but for you, and I do love you as a brother loves a brother. I'm speaking like that so that you will believe in Jesus and enjoy the blessings of the Lord in every regard.
No Doubt;
Well my brother, to go back to the original tongue would be to complicated.
Any language changes dramatically during hundreds of years, and who is to say what is what.
As I have said, that there are no original manuscripts, they are all copies of copies in various different languages and even those copies differ in some sections.
Imagine thousands of people copying copies. Will they be totally accurate?
I think not! In fact I know that they are not.
But I can assure you that the Lord God is capable to give us a 100% accurate copy of His Word in English, and for that reason men are without excuse.
Jesus said "It is written".
While reading the other comments, I realized that they all revolved around your original post about the Trinity. Therefore, I would like to continue with a definition of the Trinitarians belief.
“Trinitarianism is the theological belief in Christianity that God is a Trinity. The Trinity is the teaching that there is only one God in all existence and that God exists in three distinct, simultaneous, co-eternal, co-powerful persons known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Their creed is stated as such, “I believe in God, the Father, God, the son and God the Holy Spirit.” They continue to state that “…they work together as one God”.
I reject this non Biblical concept that God exists of three separate and distinct entities because it doesn’t reflect the Full Counsel of God, that God is one.
However, the whole Bible does teach us that God is our Father, our Savior, our Guiding Spirit, etc. and that these are the outwardly expressions of God depending on what he's doing within our time-space at that time. I also reject that Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
As I stated previously, Jesus is the outwardly expression of God’s Word, which is our Salvation and is 100% man and 100% God.
Jesus was and still is a man enjoying a multi-dimensional existence with and as part of God, an existence that all true believers will enjoy upon being received by the Messiah when he returns.
Two supporting conundrums, which no one can logically and Biblically explain in the realm of the Trinity or the “Jesus is the Father and the Father is the Son” belief systems, are:
Can God die?
Can God coexist with sin?
The answer is obviously no, which is what the Full Counsel of God proclaims. He is eternal and everlasting to everlasting and sinless.
If you are a believer in either the Trinity or the “Jesus is the Father and the Father is the Jesus” belief systems, then God died as a sinful being for three days approximately 1930 years ago.
However, according to the original scriptures, Jesus was crucified upon the alter of God, the Cross. During this event, God withdrew himself from Jesus. This is when Jesus cried out, “My God, My God. Why has thou forsaken me?”.
Paul then tells us that the sins of the world were put upon him at this time. In fact, he states that he was made sin for us all.
Jesus could not be God at this point in time because God cannot and will never exist as or with sin. It’s against his nature.
Also, this would make God a hypocrite, holding our sin against us while forgiving the same sin within himself, which is preposterous and blasphemous. After this, Jesus died as the ultimate sin offering, not God.
The man part of Jesus feared the withdrawal of God and being made sin so much that he sweated blood in Gethsemane and asked if there was another way. He was about to experience something he had never experience in his existence, the absence of God, sin and death.
Three days later, according to scripture, and before the Body would naturally see corruption, God rejoined the man and together resurrected Jesus in a transformed body.
Later, on Shavuot, Jesus ascended to his rightful place, the right hand of his Father, where he makes intercession for us on a daily basis.
Paul, you said:
"Well my brother, to go back to the original tongue would be to complicated."
Would you really feel comfortable giving that excuse before the throne of God?
You also said,
"Will they be totally accurate?
I think not! In fact I know that they are not.
But I can assure you that the Lord God is capable to give us a 100% accurate copy of His Word in English, and for that reason men are without excuse."
You can honestly say that when you know that the English translations come from the same scriptures that you say are not accurate?
Finally, you said,
"Jesus said "It is written"."
When Jesus said this, he was refering to the original scripture in the original tongue.
I say there is one God as truth not as a cliche. Please know that it is with all sincerity and passion I say that.
Paul, someties I am not sure if you read everything. I said names in langauages are semantics not what the concept of the triune God. This is why I feel you do not represent the concept in its fullness. I do believe you do not know the whole idea or at least how I feel about it. Yet, you keep putting those ideas and words into my mouth.
Yes, I say that Jesus is God and the Father is also God AND the Spirit is God as well and the three are one. It is an easy concept to understand. But we can use our standards or our own limitations to measure Him by and ssay He can not be this way. Even I can not fully comprehend the whole idea since I am not Him. But I again do know that I myself am three in one. My being acts on three different levels, separately, yet still together. Actively, yet distinct. And our God is higher than we are. This in no way is taking away the importance of the name of Jesus Christ. He and the father are One. While he was on the earth however He submitted to the authority of the father. That is why He prayed to Him. That is why He called to Him. That is why He called Him HIS father. If it is just a title, it means nothing. Son of God means nothing if it is just a title. But, I can deal with that because the term son can be role so title goes with it, but not only.
I pray that way because Jesus told me to. What ever you ask THE FATHER IN MY NAME. John 16:23Plain English....Why would Jesus be so redundant? He should have said whatever you ask for in my name I will give you for I am your father. But He didn't. he had not been glorified yet. John 7:39, plain English. I still hold on to the 1st Commandment because I believe they are ONE, noo contradiction except what you add to my words.
This does not open the dorr for anyone because I know there is only one God. I do not call anyone here holy father. They can claim anything they want. What do you call the person who raised you by the way? If you do not mind me asking?
"Now, If that FATHER is not Jesus, then WHO is it??"---Again, I never said he wasn't. You added that to my words.
I see an error in the ideaa of a trinity if the person actually believes that there are three complete separate gods roaming the universe unconnected doing their own thing, in charge of their own dimension or truth or whatever Hindus believe, but I am not one of those. And I do not think most of us who have thiss belief do either.
I will NEVER denounce anything of God. I believe in the Father, in the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God. Jesus is of God. Jesus is from God. He was. He is. And He will be. He is the Great I AM---YHWH. All authority haas been given to Him since He is now glorified and sits at the father's right hand Acts 2:33. He was with God and He was God. How can He be both? Easily....
I like what you said about baptism. I will disagree somewhat as you would expect. I would say that being baptised into the name of the father AND the son AND the spirit is the emphasis. But, these names are inclusive of each other. But anyway, go a few verses before in Acts and read some more. God raised Him from the dead. God annointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit. Being baptized in the name of Jesus is our covenant and being baptized in His name is the same as all three, since they are One.
I know you are not agianst me. Nor am I of you. I just want you to understand I do not undercut Jesus. I do believe that while He was a man, he was lower than the angels. When He was glorified He went back to His throne along side the father and at the same time still being the father. I am sorry you can not comprehend that.
Paul, when you say 'The 'us' does not mean 'us gods', but one of us 'MAN', the fallen man.' How could God be speaking to a 'fallen man' when there was no fallen man other than the one He was speaking about?
Regarding the word 'Father', it is used as a term for the one who inseminates. God,who is Spirit, ('God is Spirit.. John ch.4 v.24a says that Jesus Himself spoke these words,) was the Father of Jesus, and He inseminated Mary in order to achieve this. All we have to do is search the scriptures to see if this is so.
It does not take away the fact that 'In the beginning was the Word, (The name Jesus is not used here, although John 1 v.14 makes it clear that this is who is being spoken about)and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1v.1., or the fact that 'The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.' John 1 v.14 We can also search the scriptures and see that this is so.
Paul,
Maybe you already did this so point me in the direction of where you if you did and I would appreciate it so i could read up on it. But could you explain the meaning of Exodus 3:15....This is my name forever. Did he tell Moses his name was Jesus at that point? Because I do not see it in English. I am writing a post as we speak about this whole topic and I would like your input when I am done as well.
No Doubt;
Your explanation of the trinity is perfect.
Just like you I also reject this non Biblical doctrine, and for years I have been posting against it.
Also thank you for stating your belief.
You said, "I also reject that Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."
If you reject that Jesus is the Son, please tell me who is the Son?
Concerning the Scriptures;
You see my brother, the Bible is the Scriptures and not the copies.
The copies are not complete, they are only sections with missing parts and some differ from other copies.
A group of men, perhaps full of the Holy Ghost carried together thousand of copies and sorted them out in many different languages from the far east to the far west, all tested and cross-referenced. Hundreds of copies have been rejected and on others they used only parts till they came to a complete collection of 66 Books called the Bible.
I believe that the Spirit of the Lord Jesus controlled and directed those translators so that the Word of God was totally complete and without fault or error.
I judge everything according to the Bible and the Spirit of the Lord. If the Bible doesn't say it, I don't believe it. If the Bible says it, I believe it, teach it and do it. If I don't understand something, I ask the Lord Jesus to reveal it to me.
And now I say 'it is written'.
Brother Tim, I read you loud and clear.
You said, "Yes, I say that Jesus is God and the Father is also God AND the Spirit is God as well and the three are one."
Because you believe that and teach that, you are a trinitarian and stand condemned before the Lord and before men.
With that teaching you are leading the children of God astray to other gods.
That is a very serious charge my brother! And I stand in fear and trembling before the Lord for your sake.
I have been posting against that concept for years.
You said, 'you don't call anyone holy father'.
But you are supposed to call someone Holy Father if you believe in God.
Isn't God your Holy Father?
If He is, then tell me WHO is your Holy Father? Or what is His Name?
And please don't say GOD, otherwise I have to ask you which God.
Tim, you said, 'you still believe THEY are ONE,.
We have talked abut that before, THEY cannot and never ever will be ONE!
This is an IMPOSSIBILITY!
Why is that so hard for you to accept and understand ?
The Lord Jesus has not given you a spirit of stupor, but Spirit of power, love and a sound mind.
Also, I need you to agree that 'FATHER' 'SON' 'HOLY SPIRIT' are not names, but titles.
Response to your last comment.
(Ex. 3:15) No Tim, 'God', which is the Lord Jesus did NOT tell Moses His Name at that time.
'I AM who I AM' is not a name! Like I have said many times, that nobody knew the Name of God in the old Testament.
http://puritanbelief.blogspot.com.au/2007/10/name-of-god.html
Looking from the new Testament back to the old Testament, we know the Name of God is Jesus. So then, God who spoke to Moses was Jesus, and Jesus Himself confirmed that in John 5:46 when He said that 'Moses wrote about Me.
Not only that, but all the Prophets spoke about JESUS without knowing His Name, and we, the disciples of Jesus Christ testify that this God of the old Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Brenda, the Lord Jesus created first the male beast the Serpent and after him Adam and Eve.
After Eve sinned with the Serpent and had conceived her first son, the Lord said that the man has now become like one of us, referring the first born man Cain while he still was in her womb.
Consider this, Cain was half beast by his father and half human by his mother Eve, so Cain became just like one of us of Adam and Eve's descendent, sinful man. Therefore Eve became the mother of all living (Gen.3:20), the mother of the Serpents children's children and the mother of Adams children.
Later in (Gen. 6:1-2) we can see that the sons of God, Adams line of children saw that the daughters of men, Cain's line of children were beautiful and so the cross breeding began and produced the three races etc.
(John 1:1) Is an explanation that Word became flesh, or that the Holy Spirit clothed Himself in flesh, or that God became a man Jesus Christ.
It says that in the beginning was the Word. But it also says that in the beginning GOD! (Gen.1:1).
So here we can see that God and the Word are the same person Jesus Christ our Lord.
The written Word is the Word of God or the Word of Jesus.
More accurately, the Word was in the mouth of Jesus Christ and He 'SAID', Let there be light (Gen.1:3) and (John 1:3).
Therefore it is ONE person who created all things Jesus Christ our Lord (John 1:3), and darkness cannot and will not understand that (John 1:5). they will always say that there are two gods or three gods, because their minds were darkened.
You hear me loud but I may not have been so clear because i see some misunderstanding still.
If I believe in God who has manifested Himself as three beings (not in the way as three humans are but only in the way God can) and if that makes me a "trinitarian" then you can call me that. But my label is follower of Christ. Jesus is my LORD. That is my creed. That should settle a lot.
I honestly do appreciate your concern. I just do not think there is cause. I am saved by grace through my faith in Jesus Christ. I believe He is the same God of the OT. He was, He is, and He is to come. He is not separate from God the Father, nor Godd the Holy Spirit. For God is Spirit anyway. He came down as man. Man is not His true form. He was given the human name of Jesus to reveal who He was. He was the savior of the world and I follow Him and Him only. It is concept you can not accept. I am not asking you to accept it. I do not believe you are in jeopardy for what you say. I am against any doctrine that says that my God is three completely separate gods. You keep putting me in the same boat. I am not.
You took my words out of context about calling someone Holy Father. But it's okay I see how. No one on earth will I call Holy Father. Only Him above. Jesus my King, yes God, the Holy Spirit=====ONE.
You have still not "proven" how it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to be a "trinity", even the way you describe it. Even in Jesus' own words He said nothing is impossible for Him. But even so, the only scripture you use is God is One. I have shown you that is still true even with a "trinity" idea, at least three or four ways.
"Why is that so hard for you to accept and understand?"---same question.
I don't know if I ever said that 'FATHER' 'SON' 'HOLY SPIRIT' were names. I have said things like El Shaddai is a name. Yeshua is a name. YHVH is a name. But I don't recall saying father, son, and holy spirit are names. I said they were His personnas and/or manifestations. Name are what we call them and address them when we talk to them. I do not call you Person, but Paul. I do no call you Internet guy I talk to, but Paul. So, I think we agree here. By the way you did not respond to my question about what you call the person who raised you. If you choose not to I respect that choice, just did not know what your choice was.
God did not tell Moses His name? Then why in plain English doe it say that "This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation." What did He mean by the word name?
Why was the name of Jesus hidden for so long? I of course agree that the prophets spoke of Him. And that everytime God spoke that Jesus was speaking, for they are One. They were prophets, of course they wrote about Him. What does that prove?
I appreciate you and your time. I stand before God innocent because of the blood of Jesus. The measure of which you use will be used to measure you...be careful.
Paul,
can you tell me what version of the Scriptures, what Bible, you use?
Brenda, I read 'the Word of God' which is Spirit and Truth.
Any translation is good enough for me.
In front of me I have a copy of the original 1611 King James Version with all the typographical errors, spelling errors,punctuations, capitalization, and the use of italics. With a few of exceptions the typos did not materially affect the meaning of the text.
Which one do you read?
Paul,
Out of curiousity. How do you feel about British Israelism? I know it is off the topic but I kind of see a connection. Do you support the idea or not? I will not criticize nor comment one way or the other. Like I said, just curious. You have my word.
At the moment I have the New Oxford annotated Bible with the Apocrypha expanded edition. The reason I asked is that I thought maybe the Puritains had their own version of the Bible. Regarding the line from Adam and Eve, both Adam and Eve sinned against God, that is why death came upon all of mankind and eternal life denied to all. All who descend from Adam are born into sin, that is why the Bible tells us that in Adam all die.
No Doubt,
I have been thinking about your idea about God dying and can God coexist with sin. It did make me think but the only answer that kept coming back to me is that we have to remember even Jesus' body was only flesh. His body was not God. His body was man. So He did not die. His body which was man did. He did not coexist WITH sin. His body which was man became sin as did the escape goats ocf the old sacrifices. Jesus was in the body of man. His brain was human. But He the Spirit of God was with Him and when He was glorified all authority was bestowed upon Him as the God He was, is, and is to come. Again, it is something we probably can not comprehend, as you would attest to since He is in a higher or complexed dimension than we. Does that makes since? Therefore Jesus is still man and God simultaneously.
Tim, In my wife's family were some who believed the British Israel doctrine and then slowly departed from the Lord Jesus.
Personally I don't believe the British Israel doctrine, I think it doesn't stand up against the Scriptures and the covenants.
I believe that there are two covenants with God's people, the old which is the old Testament and everyone broke that covenant, and the new covenant which is the new Testament and that is in His blood.
By that I mean that the Lord Jesus knew that if we could not keep the first covenant we surely couldn't keep another covenant, therefore He made the second covenant in His blood. And that is is for every nation, tribe, colour and tongue and not only for England, America and the western white Europeans.
Brenda, the new Oxford Bible is a good Bible, but it is only as good as you believe it.
The Apocrypha is not considered to be the Word of God, and therefore it is not for correction in doctrine or conduct.
Personally I submit myself only to the 66 Books of the Bible and the Spirit of the Lord without hesitation or restraint.
Concerning the Puritans; I don't believe in the Puritans, I only believe in Jesus Christ my Lord.
The Puritans are a group of people considered to be pure to the doctrines of the Scriptures, but I or we think that there is only ONE true Puritan who stayed true to the Scriptures and that is Jesus Christ our Lord.
Brenda, what you have said about Adam and Eve is absolutely correct and I agree with you, but as for me or us it is not good enough, because we are accustomed to the meat of the Word and not only the milk.
No Doubt;
That is very good my brother, but I'm sure that you can do better, so keep on thinking. :-)
A short explanation on death.
Death is NOT annihilation but separation.
When we die, the body goes to the grave and is separated from the spirit and the soul and that is called death.
The same is with God Jesus Christ. The Spirit (John 4:24) prepared for Himself a body Jesus Christ our Lord and when He died on the cross He's Spirit was separated from the body which is called death.
Because Jesus was without sin, therefore it would have been impossible for Him to die not unless he took upon Himself our sins, and only then it was possible for Him to die.
Hi Paul,
I totally agree with you as far as the Apocrypha, I have in the past found some nice messages in the early verses of Ecclesiasticus as far as conduct is concerned, but it is not the word of God. As far as meat and milk are concerned, I am well aware of the scriptures being spiritually discerned (as in the 'meat') as we mature in Christ. As for Cain, he is used as an 'avoid being like him' instruction in the New Testament, but he and his descendants were wiped out in the flood. Paul, if you are not a puritan, can I ask 'Who are the 'us' you tie in with in your last comment to me. By the way, I also love Jesus Christ my Lord.
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Tim,
I wrote this three times and finally condensed it down to:
Re-read my comments. You took my words out of context. Your comment is just reiterating my original point with one exception.
Keith
Paul,
My friend you talk in circles. I appreciate a good discussion but this is turning out to be fruitless.
You claim my statement that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man is false and then use it in a different form during your last comment.
The whole point is that Jesus is an extension of God. God's Word coming forth into our limited dimensionality.
I am happy that you are now admitting that there can be a separation between Jesus and God as that is what I've been saying.
It all tense and purposes, God and Jesus is one in spirit. At the time Jesus walked upon this earth, they were separate in the flesh.
Your statement that death separated them completely for a moment in time, (three days) is making my point.
I leave this discussion with me promising to continues to pray for you as I do for all our brothers and sisters.
God Bless You my friend.
Brenda;
Yes Cain died before the flood, and his DNA was mingled before the flood and went onto the Ark and after the flood it spread throughout the world and is now in all of us.
That DNA is the sin in the flesh , also called the original sin.
The 'us' in my comment is for all of us who hunger for more, and that includes our regular get together in fellowship as the disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ of any denomination.
Also, I like your last sentence, that is the sign of a true disciple of the Lord Jesus.
No Doubt,
Keith, I do not use that kind of language 'Jesus was 100% God and 100% man'.
Is there such a thing as 90% God?
What do you think is 100% man?
Do you mean 100% like you or I?
If you think that, then I disagree.
According to the flesh Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, which means the only one of a kind, as in the flesh He is like Adam, except Jesus was born through a woman and Adam was not.
That's the reason why Jesus is called the second Adam.
So then, Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty clothed in flesh and dwelt among us.
There is NO separation between Jesus and God, that is because the Lord Jesus is the Lord God.
On the cross there was a separation between the Spirit and the flesh and that is called death.
The flesh, which is dust went to the grave and the Spirit is the Lord (2 Cor. 3:17 and John 4:24).
There is not such a thing as 'God and Jesus' or 'Jesus and God',
This kind of terminology states that God and Jesus are two persons which is trinitarian thinking.
You are making a mistake by thinking that 'God' is a person and Jesus is the other person.
No my brother, 'GOD' is a TITLE belonging to Jesus Christ our Lord.
There is only one person Jesus Christ and He alone holds the title God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit and whatever other titles you like to give to Him.
Therefore the Lord Jesus cannot be separated from His title 'God', and death is not separation from a title, but from the flesh.
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Paul,
the sin of the flesh was not only in Cain, it was in all who descended from Adam and Eve, because both Adam and Eve sinned. However, In Genesis ch. 5's account of the generations of Adam there is no mention of the fall or of Cain, but it speaks of Seth, and I believe there is a reason for this. Seth means 'the appointed'.
Ch. 5 of Genesis refers to man being made in the likeness of God, yet in chapter 2 of Genesis it makes no mention of man being made in the likeness of God, only of man being formed of the dust from the ground and having the breath of life breathed into him.
This man of dust in ch. 2 of Genesis was made before any plant of the field was in the earth and so would have been formed before the third day according to Genesis ch. 1 v.13. Yet Genesis ch.1 vs. 26 - 31 goes on to say that God made man in 'our image' on the sixth day.
I believe absolutely that the difference in these two chapters is highlighting the difference between carnal man and spiritually born again man,(the appointed) as in 'Let us( God the Spirit and Jesus the Word ) make man(of dust, already created ) in our (spiritual) image,yet also revealing through Genesis ch. 5 onwards that spiritual man can be capable of sinning against God also.
Brenda, the problem with that theory is that you start of with two God's, 'Let us (God and Jesus the Word) make man (of dust, already created) in our (spiritual) image'.
In our spiritual image?
What image is there of the spirit?
I assume that you mean in the image of those two Gods, God and Jesus the Word?
Well Brenda, I have a real big problem with that.
You know that I have been posting for many years against that idea.
Man has not been created by two Gods and neither was man created in the image of two Gods.
Look Brenda, it is so important that you deal with that problem, otherwise it distorts most of your understanding of any doctrine.
I have a simple rule to understand the doctrine of God.
'There is only one person who is the Lord God the Almighty and that is Jesus Christ our Lord.
If it is not Jesus Christ, then the doctrine is not true.'
So, (Gen. 1:1) In the beginning GOD.
That God is the Lord Jesus Christ. Any other is NOT GOD.
(Rev. 22:13) The Lord Jesus Christ said, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Again, that is the Lord Jesus in the Beginning of Genesis 1:1 (the Alpha) right throughout the Word of God to Revelation 22;13-21 the (Omega), the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
If you believe that and apply that in all your interpretations of the Scriptures then you can never fail.
So then, the 'US' and the 'OUR' image in (Gen.2:26) cannot and does not mean 'US GODS'.
If you think so, then you are breaking the rule.
Or worse, you are braking the first Commandment of the Lord.
Please Brenda, try again and explain to me who are the 'US'? But don't forget the rule.
The rule is very simple, but to understand the fall of man is difficult, because the Lord Jesus has hidden that from most Christians, and He gives it only to those who diligently seek Him.
Paul,
who do you say the 'us' is?
Jesus Himself said in John ch. 6 vs.45 - 47 'It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.…'
He states here that no one has seen the Father except the One who is from God (Jesus Himself). It is not a question of two or three Gods, it is a question of God being a Spirit (which is not visible to the eye) and Jesus the express image of God who is able to relate to mankind (who was cut off from God because God and sin do not mix )because Jesus came in the form of man but with the divine mind.
It is our carnal thoughts and ways that have to be changed in order for us to become children of God, and that could not be done without a mediator between God and man. That mediator was Jesus.
Just as Paul says in 1 Corinthians ch. 9 v.20 'To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. so as to win those under the law.' ,so too God did for all mankind 'For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.' Who am I Paul, or anyone who says they are believers, to argue with what is plainly written in the Bible. It all makes perfect sense when it is not mixed with doctrine or when anything is added or taken away.
Yes Brenda , we all shall be taught of God and so we are, therefore we know who the 'US' and the 'OUR' is.
In the beginning 'God'!
If that God is not Jesus, then who is it? That's a legitimate question, just the same as, if Jesus is not the Father, then who is the Father?
From Genesis 1:1 to 1:26 was only God and the serpent and the rest of the animals.
And then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness" v.26, and that was before Adam was made.
If God is ONE, then to whom was He speaking?
And no, it isn't a metaphor, nor was He speaking to Himself.
The term 'US and OUR' is plural and God is singular and neither was it spiritual.
You see, if you would believe that God is one, then you it would be impossible for you to say that God spoke to another person who is also God.
Therefore it is a question of the trinity or not the trinity.
You said, "It is our carnal thoughts and ways that have to be changed in order for us to become children of God, and that could not be done without a mediator between God and man."
No Brenda, If you would understand the fall of man in Genesis, you would not say that.
Previously I have said that we cannot become children to God no matter what we do, just like we cannot become children to the Queen of England no matter what we do.
We were children of God before the beginning of the world, and the children of the devil are those who are born of the devil (Gen. 3:15).
It amazes me that you don't believe that.
We all believe in the written Word of God, but not all interpret it the same way.
Paul,
I don't think you have taken in what I have said regarding what the scriptures say in Genesis ch. 2 about which day Adam was created.
You know what I believe about the Adam created on the sixth day, which obviously has to be a different Adam to the one on the second day in Genesis ch. 2. The difference is that the first one was carnal, the second was spiritual.
Genesis ch. 3 v.15 does not imply that Eve's children were children of the devil, as you have stated previously. It actually says there will be enmity between the descendants of both, so they are not the same descendants.
Yes there was only one God in Genesis ch. 1 up to the sixth day, the Spirit God, but the word was with Him and was God. The word was the part of God that could communicate with mankind while mankind was in a sinful state.
On the sixth day when God said 'Let us make man in our image' Jesus, who is that word according to Scripture, was seated at His right hand.
It was on the fourth day (as in one day is as a thousand years with God) when Jesus was sent to earth as 'the only begotten Son, (reflected in the sun that gives light to the earth also being formed on the fourth day)
It is John ch. 1 v.12 that states 'But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:' - not me Paul. I was simply quoting what is written.
Our mind has to conform to what the scriptures say, (and they can be discerned spiritually). We can not have it the other way around where the scriptures conform to our mind.
Brenda, which Adam was the carnal and which Adam was the spiritual? We know that Gods son was called Adam (Luke 4:38), but the other Adam, what is different and what is his name?
You said, 'Genesis ch. 3 v.15 does not imply that Eve's children were children of the devil, as you have stated previously. It actually says there will be enmity between the descendants of both, so they are not the same descendants.'
descendants of both, both who?
You said, 'Yes there was only one God in Genesis ch. 1 up to the sixth day, the Spirit God, but the word was with Him and was God. The word was the part of God that could communicate with mankind while mankind was in a sinful state.'
Up to the sixth day was only one God, are you saying that after the sixth day was another God?
You said, 'It was on the fourth day (as in one day is as a thousand years with God) when Jesus was sent to earth as 'the only begotten Son, (reflected in the sun that gives light to the earth also being formed on the fourth day)'.
No, no Brenda! We are talking about the beginning and the fall of man and not something in the future, but in a 24 hour six day creation.
You said, 'It is John ch. 1 v.12 that states 'But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:' - not me Paul. I was simply quoting what is written.'
'Our mind has to conform to what the scriptures say, (and they can be discerned spiritually). We can not have it the other way around where the scriptures conform to our mind.'
Our debate is about what the text MEANS and not what it says. We both are old enough to read and quote a text, but we need to know what the text means. When the text says that the Lord our God is ONE, then at no point of interpretation does it mean TWO or THREE. That is with the exception of a metaphorical explanation.
If the text speaks about a 24 hour day creation, then it does not mean a thousand year creation.
To you John 1:12 surely means something completely different then it does to me.
Perhaps you like to test me on that?
Yes we can and do discern the Scriptures spiritually. But it is better to discern it naturally before spiritually, if we cannot discern it naturally how then can we discern it spiritually and who is to say that we rightly discern it spiritually.
Genesis is God's physical creation of the world and man, which is the natural, it is the family tree of the good and the evil, and how evil entered into the perfect man, which is the original sin.
I think you may have quoted the wrong scripture regarding Luke ch. 4 v. 38. Which scripture did you mean to quote?
Enmity between Eve's children and the serpent's children, so Eve's children can not be the serpent's children can they?
No, I said ', 'Yes there was only one God in Genesis ch. 1 up to the sixth day, the Spirit God, but the word was with Him and was God' - not one God, but one God and the word who was with God and was God.
What do you say 1 John 12 means Paul?
Can you tell me why Genesis ch.2 v.5 says that no shrubs or plants were around when man was formed, which would have not been on the sixth day?
Yes Brenda, I did, I meant to say Luke 3:38.
You said, 'Enmity between Eve's children and the serpent's children, so Eve's children can not be the serpent's children can they?'
I can see Eve to be the mother of both, the serpents children and Adams children, remember Eve is the mother of all living (Gen.3;20).
So then, what does Genesis 3:14 and 15 say to you?
To me it says,'Because you have done this,'
What did the serpent do??
now the explanation to that is in verse 15 b, 'I will put enmity between your (the serpents) children and her (Adams) children.'
Here I can see that the whole struggle of life, good and bad is between those two groups of children, the serpents children and Adams children. Now Adams children are also Eves children just like the serpents children are Eves children, that is because she is the mother of both (Gen.3:20).
I cannot see that Eve ate an apple as most Christians say, or just disobedient only.
All though, all disobedience is sin, but it is the action which is the sin.
Interesting the punishment for Eves sin is in her childbearing department (Gen. 3:16).
Genesis ch.2 is a recount of ch1 from a different perspective, ch. 2 v.5 seems to me that the Lord put the seed of the shrubs etc. in the ground on the third day, but they haven't yet appeared. If we put a seed in the ground, it also takes many days till we see the plant or shrub appear.
You said, 'No, I said ', 'Yes there was only one God in Genesis ch. 1 up to the sixth day, the Spirit God, but the word was with Him and was God' - not one God, but one God and the word who was with God and was God.'
Well Brenda, you are very good with words, that's why you are a good poet. But I still have a problem with that explanation, I still can see the back door open.
"Not one God, but one God AND the word who was with God"
Do you mean one God and the word which is Jesus and He was with God?
I think you mean John 1:12.
"But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God,even to them that believe on his name:"
Most Christians believe that they first must accept Jesus, and then believe in him, or even believe on his Name, and perhaps jumping another few hoops and then, if they qualify they might become the children of God.
However, I reject that interpretation.
But as many as HAVE received Him is a statement not an encouragement to take Jesus.
It is those in whom Jesus has made His abode (the born again) that are the children of God, and to them alone He has given the power to become the sons of God "Which were born, not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." (v.13)
I say again Paul that according to Genesis ch. 2 man was formed from the dust before the plants were formed. As far as God and the word who was with God and was God you shall have to ask the writers of that scripture what that means being as we could disagree on that forever. You have said that Jesus was speaking to Himself when He was on earth speaking to His Father in Heaven. I can not accept this, but it does not matter if we disagree, the word is the judge.
Yes I believe that you can become sons of God through believing on Jesus. Jesus was said to be, according to the written word in the Bible, the only begotten son of God at the time He was born on earth, and Jesus said of those around Him 'For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.'
What would be the point of spreading the gospel of salvation if God did not want all to be saved.
I am not sure what else I can say to you Paul. The end of the matter is that God has made Jesus my Lord and I must serve Him as I am instructed.
Thanks Brenda for being patient with me and long suffering.
But it really does matter whether we disagree or not. It is the will of the Lord that we are in unity and agree in the most important doctrine called the doctrine of God.
All other doctrines depend on the right understanding of the doctrine of God.
I have clearly demonstrated that and will continually do so in all other doctrines, even in salvation or the children of God.
And remember that the Word of God is not for private interpretation, but it must be tested against other members of the family of God, even me.
It is not pleasant at this time but once you can see it, you surely will love it just as I do and it will profit you in every way.
Concerning the children of God.
I know that you believe that we can become the children of God through believing, but you are greatly mistaken.
Brenda, all those who are advocates of your interpretation say, that all human beings are children of God.
Tell me, how does someone who already is a child of God, needs again to become a child of God?
No Brenda! Some people are the children of the devil just as Jesus has said in John 8:44, and look at verse 31, they even believed in Jesus.
Well, did their believing make them children of God? I think not.
You see, the children of God were in Christ before the foundation of the world and at the appropriate time the Lord Jesus revealed Himself in them and caused them to be born again, born of God and that is not by their will or their doing, but only by the doing of the Lord, lest they will boast.
You said, "What would be the point of spreading the gospel of salvation if God did not want all to be saved."
Brenda, concerning the gospel of salvation I have posted my understanding in the third last post called 'SALVATION= Two Sided (according to Scriptures).'
You and nearly all Christians don't divide salvation and for that reason we have two groups called Calvinists and Arminianists.
The Arminian persuasion present the salvation by works and the Calvinists a salvation by grace alone.
They have been arguing for hundreds of years about that.
I believe and present both sides, just as I have demonstrated in my post 'Salvation two sided'.
And for that reason I preach the gospel of salvation which is by works to all man, to the children of the devil and to the children of the Lord so that ALL might be saved.
Within the gospel is a salvation which is only for the children of God, that is from a spiritual dead state to a new life eternal, a new birth which is by grace alone and not by works lest any man should boast.
Yes, you are right that God made Jesus Christ to be your Lord and also mine. :-)
I am not sure what you mean here Paul, it is the scriptures we have to search for the truth, not people's doctrines.
Where you say 'No Brenda! Some people are the children of the devil just as Jesus has said in John 8:44, and look at verse 31, they even believed in Jesus.
Yes, many believed in Jesus but they did not recognize Him as the Messiah as John ch.7 v.31 implies:- 'Still, many in the crowd believed in him. They said, “When the Messiah comes, will he perform more signs than this man?”'
Where you say
'Well, did their believing make them children of God? I think not.',
No they could not have been children of God then because the Spirit was not given until after Jesus was glorified, and in order to be children of God (who is Spirit) we have to be born of that Spirit.
We were all born into sin and were never children of God because Adam was formed from dust and it does not say in Genesis ch. 2 that he was made in the image of God. It only states in Genesis ch.5 that Adam was the son of God, and it only names Seth(which means 'appointed') as his son (no mention of Cain or Abel). I know there is a reason for this but I would find it difficult to explain at the moment.
I have not got a clue what Calvanists and Arminianists are. I do not belong to any denomination, and only go wherever the Lord leads me.
I believe that no man can come to Jesus except he is called by God, that there is a time for everything - natural birth and spiritual rebirth, and that salvation can not be got by anything except God's grace but that it involves repentance and water baptism.
I may have already read and commented on your post 'Salvation - two sided', but I will check and see.
Brenda, it's not a question of recognising Jesus in order to become born again.
They first must be the children of God before the foundation of the world. In other words, they must be in the line of Adam, Gods children through the line of Adam Genesis 5:3-31 starting with Adam, Seth etc. to this day.
Only that line can be saved from eternal death and be born again.
The children of God are the only ones who will receive the Holy Spirit at the time of their new birth (born again). Remember that it is a FREE GIFT not by works lest anyone will boast.
Anyone who has not received the Spirit of the Lord does not belong to Him (Rom. 8:9).
The devil's (serpents) line through Cain etc. Genesis 4:17-23 can only be naturally saved as I have demonstrated that in my post 'SALVATION = Two Sided (according to Scriptures)', their salvation is only for natural things like saved from a disaster or save from drowning, sickness etc.
You said, "We were all born into sin and were never children of God because Adam was formed from dust and it does not say in Genesis ch. 2 that he was made in the image of God. It only states in Genesis ch.5 that Adam was the son of God, and it only names Seth(which means 'appointed') as his son (no mention of Cain or Abel). I know there is a reason for this but I would find it difficult to explain at the moment"
No Brenda, we all, by that I mean Satan's children and God's children were born spiritually DEAD.
And only God's children will be born again.
Satan's children will NEVER be born of the Spirit of God.
Remember that the new birth is a different salvation then the salvation from disaster, blindness etc.
It doesn't say in Genesis ch.2 that Adam was in the image of God, but it says it in ch.1:27. And it states in Luke 3:38 that Adam was the son of God, and Seth was Adams son who was in Adams image and not in the serpents image.
Remember, there are two images, Adams image and the serpents image. The serpents son Cain was in his fathers image and murdered Adams son Able who was in Adams image and after Abel was dead, Adam wanted again another son who was in his own image (Gen. 5:3).
You said, "I believe that no man can come to Jesus except he is called by God, that there is a time for everything - natural birth and spiritual rebirth, and that salvation can not be got by anything except God's grace but that it involves repentance and water baptism."
Again, the spiritual birth is only for the children of God.
Brenda, it seems to me that you don't know what grace is.
You said that salvation can not be got by anything except God's grace but that it involves repentance and water baptism.
In that sentence you say that grace is works.
Grace does not involve anything!
Grace is the UNMERITED favour of the Lord.
You see, repentance and water-baptism is works-based, but we are saved (born again) by grace alone lest we boast.
If it would be by repentance and water-baptism then you really can boast about what you did.
Look Brenda, you need to deal with all those false teachings and remember that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Paul,
repenting, baptism and faith in Christ Jesus are not works, and are clearly written instructions in the New Testament section of the Bible. They are what is required by all in order to become children of God. 'To become children of God' is not the same as 'you are already children of God'. Romans ch.8 v.29 states 'For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.' as in Jesus (His Son, as the scripture says) being the first born of many brothers and sisters. The brothers and sisters who were born of the Spirit came after Jesus was born in this world.
1 Corinthians ch. 15 vs.45 - 49 says So it is written (as in Genesis ch. 2 v. 7)'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear(some early manuscripts say 'let us bear) the image of the heavenly man.'
1 Corinthians ch.15 v. 22 says 'For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.' 'All' means 'All' Paul, and 1 Timothy ch. 2 vs 3 - 5 state (regarding petitions, prayers, intersession and thanksgiving for all people:- 'This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…'
Jesus even went to preach to the spirits of the dead as it states in 1 Peter ch. 3 vs.18-22, (also speaking about water baptism)
'For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits — to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also — not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand - with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
I had to do what I want to say in response to your comment in two sections Paul.
Here is the second part.
Jesus has bought us eternal life, yes, through His crucifixion, but we still have to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling'(Philippians ch.2 v.12) or we could 'fall away' as in Hebrews ch. 6 vs. 4 - 8 'For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.'
These verses imply that the ones who have been born again, who once bore the image of the earthly man, have a choice of whether they continue in 'working out' there salvation which was granted through grace (God's unmerited favour).
The Adam referred to in Genesis ch. 1 v. 27 is the Adam of the sixth day, formed after the 'vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds' were formed, the second life giving spiritual Adam.
Where Romans ch. 8 v. 1 states that 'there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus'. The whole of the verse reads 'There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' There is a condition in 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'
OK Brenda, we first tackle your first two sentences.
"Repenting, baptism and faith in Christ Jesus are not works, and are clearly written instructions in the New Testament section of the Bible. They are what is required by all in order to become children of God."
Plainly, that is indisputably WORKS.
It is most important that we come to an agreement on that, otherwise we run around in circles.
GRACE, which is the unmerited favour of the Lord, and grace is the absence of works.
WORKS, is that which you DO, works and grace does not mix, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
WORKS is that which you DO to get something, whatever it is you want.
And GRACE is the opposite to that! The new birth is a FREE GIFT and you have done nothing for it.
If you have to do something for it, then it is not a free gift, you have earned it.
So then, if the new birth (to be born again) has a requirement of repentance and water-baptism and faith in order to become born again or to become the children of God, then they are born again by those REQUIREMENTS, which is called WORKS.
WORKS is that which you have done and earned.
So, repenting is that which you DO, water-baptism is that which you DO, faith is that which you use.
So then you have acquired your new birth by what you DID, which is called WORKS.
But the Bible says that you are born again by GRACE and NOT by WORKS lest any man should boast (Eph. 2:8-9).
Brenda, this is sound intelligence and I need you to agree with that.
After that we will talk about the other sentences in your comment.
Also, please feel free to comment about that on my new post-page.
Paul, in these verses there is instruction to do what is right and not to keep on sinning:- 'Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous' 1 John ch.3 vs.4-7', just as we are told to 'work out our salvation with fear and trembling'.
'We have to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.', not just carry on doing whatever we want to do in this world regardless of whether it is right or wrong.
In John ch. 3 vs.5 and 6 'Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' There is a physical birth and a spiritual birth. The spiritual birth enables us to enter the kingdom of God.
If what you are saying is right then how could anyone who is already born again fall away?
Regarding repentance,water baptism, and faith (without which it is impossible to please God)Hebrews ch.11 v.6, they are all clearly written as instruction to believers, as I have shown in my last comment, and I can not take one or two verses from the Bible and ignore the rest.
I can not see anywhere in the Bible where it says, as you say it does, that I am born again by grace. I am saved by grace, through faith, which is a gift from God, as stated in Ephesians ch. 2 vs 8 and 9, but v.10 says 'For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.', so 'good works' are involved too
Perhaps we shall never agree on this issue, and we must carry on doing what each of us believes is right, but I can not change what is written in the Bible, otherwise I would be following the doctrines of man, and I have to do what God is telling me to do and not anything that man is telling me to do which could cancel out these things.
Yes Brenda, I know all about that and surely I agree with you in all those good works which we are eagerly to do.
You said, "If what you are saying is right then how could anyone who is already born again fall away?"
Yes, as you know that many of our brothers and sisters have fallen away from the Lord and it is our duty to turn them back again to Jesus and restore them to the faith.
If a person has received the FREE GIFT of God, which is eternal life, also called life from the dead, then it is impossible for that person to lose that LIFE. Why? Because it's a free gift, and the Lord is not an Indian giver, and remember, it's eternal life, which means that this life does not and can never end and they can never die again.
If they could die, then that life wasn't ETERNAL.
You may ask, can those who fall away from the Lord perish? Yes, they certainly will perish and even prematurely die, but that death is only physical death and by no means spiritually.
So then, do you agree that there is a salvation which is by GRACE alone and not by WORKS?
I agree with you that there is a salvation which is by WORKS or works-based, a salvation which is by you believing, having faith and doing whatever the Lord Jesus said in His Word.
But we are debating the salvation which is by GRACE alone and NOT by works. That salvation is the new birth, life from the death, that is the only salvation which is by grace alone.
A person is dead in their sins and trespasses and they cannot make themselves alive (spiritually).
Does Eph. 2:8 say that you are saved by works?
If you cannot be saved by works, then which salvation is Eph. 2:8 talking about?
Yes Brenda, we can agree on that, all we need is to interpret the Scriptures rightly.
Brenda, you said, "Romans ch.8 v.29 states For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."
Question, who did He foreknow and predestine?
Did He foreknow what they would DO? And according to their deeds He predestined them to conform....?
No Brenda! The Lord does not have a crystal ball to look into the future.
The answer is simple. The Lord knows who are His children, or who are His sheep and He knows them by name, therefore He predestined them alone to conform...., (predestined means also foreordained).
You said, "1 Corinthians ch.15 v. 22 says 'For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.' 'All' means 'All' Paul,"
Yes that is correct, but have you noticed, it says 'in Adam', that means that ALL Adams children were born spiritually dead.
Jesus Christ is also traced back to Adam and not to Caine, therefore ALL who are in Christ Jesus will be made spiritually alive again (born again). Yes ALL! And they can never die again.
You said, "Jesus even went to preach to the spirits of the dead as it states in 1 Peter ch. 3 vs.18-22, (also speaking about water baptism)"
No Brenda, Jesus did not speak about water-baptism.
WATER-baptism is symbolic and most certainly it does NOT save and cause you to be born again, it doesn't even properly remove the dirt from the skin.
Remember that every Jehovah Witness, Mormons and every devil is water-baptised, does that make them saved?
Paul, as I have already said 'I can not add or take away from what the Bible says, as in Romans ch. 8 v.29, and God does not need a crystal ball to see what is happening at any particular time.
Isaiah ch.46 v.9 and10 state ' remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
I did not say that Jesus spoke about water baptism I said that those verses did.
I have been water baptized according to instruction that I received from the Bible, and know it was right that I did.
Jesus genealogy is traced back to Abraham in the Bible.
Brenda, Romans 8:29, On What grounds did He foreknow them?
Why did He predestine some and rejected others and still be just?
You said, "Isaiah ch.46 v.9 and10 state ' remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done,"
Who is that God who is speaking? And what is His Name?
I'm glad Brenda, that you got water-baptised, but that didn't save you. You were saved before water-baptism , and water-baptism was only a declaration that you have died with Jesus and that you were raised again in the newness of life etc.
I was also water-baptised, but that wasn't for my sake, It was for those around me who witnessed that I have started a new life in Christ Jesus my Lord.
Luke 3:23 traces Jesus back to Adam v.38.
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Blogger Brenda said...
Paul,
I know that I was shown in my 'death experience' that God knew me before I was born, and maybe many other people have had that experience, but I can not see that He rejects people. I believe that because Jesus is not on the earth now in the form that He was in the gospels, we are His body on earth doing the work He has called us to do, including evangelism. God wants all to be saved and gives all a chance because He so loved the world.
Luke ch.3 v.23 traces Joseph back, who was not the father of Jesus. Luke ch. 1 v.35 states that when Mary asked how she would have a child when she was a virgin 'The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.'
Brenda, I'm fully convinced that the Lord knew you from before the foundation of the world.
He knows all His children by name and He eagerly watches over them and brings them to a new birth and they all will call Him Abba Father.
All of His children were dead in their sins and trespasses, but the gospel of Jesus Christ caused them to be born again, just as it is written, "I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live."
Yes Brenda, the Lord wants ALL to be saved, but not all to be born again. The new birth is only for His children by grace, but the works-based salvation is for everybody, because the Lord wants none to perish but all to be saved.
If anybody believes in Jesus and does what He says, they will be saved according to their belief, faith and obedience.
When you said, 'He loved the world', do you mean everybody in the world?
Concerning the the family line of Jesus.
Because the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty, therefore He is nobody's Son.
He is called the only begotten Son, which means the only one of a kind and His DNA line cannot be traced. That is because He has created for Himself a body without the sin of the flesh, which is the pollution of the beast DNA.
I think that Mary was a surrogate mother to the Lord Jesus, and Jesus did not share the DNA with Mary.
I haven't seen where the scriptures say this Paul. '
Yes Brenda, the Lord wants ALL to be saved, but not all to be born again. The new birth is only for His children by grace, but the works-based salvation is for everybody, because the Lord wants none to perish but all to be saved.
If anybody believes in Jesus and does what He says, they will be saved according to their belief, faith and obedience.'
As far as the following is concerned:-
When you said, 'He loved the world', do you mean everybody in the world?
this is what John ch 3 says about it:-
'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.' It uses the word 'whoever'.
Brenda, If the new birth salvation is by grace alone and not everybody will be born again, then it is obvious that the the Lord does not want all to be born again.
If the Lord wants all to be saved from their sins by the condition of believing in Him and do what He says, then salvation is up to every individual and not up to the Lord.
John 3:16 doesn't say that He loves everybody in the world, that's why I have asked you whether you think He did.
If there is a statement, it is good to know what that statement means.
The 'whoever' are those who believe.
That's right Paul,
'whoever believes', and there is a great depth to that word 'believe' that involves being 'doers' of the word, and not just 'hearers'. So you see there is choice in both believing and being doers of the word.
So then you agree that 'believe' is doing something, which is also called works.
But remember that there is a salvation which is by grace alone and not by works lest anyone should boast (Eph. 2:8). It is this mystery which for ages past was hidden in God and now has been revealed.
Paul,
Jesus is the word and He speaks to me through the scriptures since I have been baptized with the Holy Spirit. I am told that I must not be just a hearer of that word but a doer of that word. So are you saying that is 'works', and are you saying that we can carry on living according to the flesh or should we walk according to the Spirit? If you are then what is 'believing' in Jesus portraying to you if it does not bring a change in the way we live in this world?
Brenda, I am speaking about two types of salvation's, one by grace the other by works.
I know that you understand the salvation by works and you made that clear, but in the salvation which is by grace you make no distinction.
You think that anyone can be born again if they want to, all that they have to do is to believe or whatever and then they are born again.
You have not answered my question Paul.
You said;
"So are you saying that is 'works', and are you saying that we can carry on living according to the flesh or should we walk according to the Spirit?"
Look Brenda, we are not questioning whether we should do good or bad. We both know that we and everyone should do good and walk according to the Spirit and then we will not fulfil the desires of the flesh.
But we are talking about something which is for the mature who are in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I said;
'You think that anyone can be born again if they want to, all that they have to do is to believe or whatever and then they are born again.'
That's what I said, knowing that you believe that.
But that is contrary to the Scriptures, as I have demonstrated that.
Brenda, I will ask you a leading question.
What must a man do to become born again?
Being born again means being born of the Spirit and involves repenting of my old ways, believing on Jesus, being baptized in water and receiving the Holy Spirit as my teacher. What do you say a one must do to be born again Paul?
Brenda, that's the difference between you and me.
You think that a man must do something and then he will become born again, that is called salvation by works and that is not Scriptural.
Simply, it's not by repentance or anything you do, but by grace alone.
I believe that a man can't do anything in order to be born again. That is the sovereign choice of the Lord Jesus Christ alone and only those whom He has chosen will be given a new birth.
The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8). (v. 11) We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and you do not receive our witness.
It seems to me Paul that you do not believe those words that I have quoted from the new testament as scripture. The wind is the Spirit and contained within the words of John ch. 3 v.8 regarding the 'wind' is the revelation that those who are born of the Spirit hear the sound of it. I hear what it says to me Paul.
Yes Brenda, but that revelation does not come by repenting, believing or water-baptism etc. but by grace alone.
Please tell me, if the new birth is not by what you do (works), why is it that not everybody will be born again?
Not all accept the Gospel, some want to stay in darkness.
No Brenda, the new birth is NOT by you accepting or rejecting.
The new birth is life from the dead as a FREE GIFT from God.
It is just like your first birth in the flesh. You didn't have a choice to receive or to reject that life, it was your physical fathers choice for you to be born in the flesh.
The same is with your spiritual birth. You were spiritually dead in your sins and trespasses and your heavenly Father caused you to be born again apart from you having a choice to accept or to reject that life.
So the question still remains, Why has He given you a new birth and not to everyone else?
We are just going around in circles here Paul. It appears to be doctrine verses scripture. I would rather try to stick to scripture.
In Chapter 11 verse 7, God said let us go down and confound their language. Who would the "us" be in that verse?
I posted this on several of your posts because I did not know which ones you were still reading.
Don't know what others have said, but i happened to read your post and had to correct your false understanding of oneness. The Bible says:
(John 8:17, 18) It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
(John 7:16-18) Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
(John 8:50) And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
(Mark 9:35) And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of all.
(Philippians 2:7, 8) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(Ephesians 5:2) And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
(John 15:10-14) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
These verses are very clear. The Father and the Son are distinct Persons, not three figureheads.
Thanks Sean for your comment.
'A false understanding of oneness', my understanding is that two cannot be one, in fact it is impossible for two persons to be one God.
I think that you have bought into the biggest lie Satan has ever produced and perhaps it is a good time for you to deal with that non biblical doctrine the trinity.
The trinity doctrine makes it impossible for you to understand the Scripture passages you have quoted.
You said,"(John 7:16-18) Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him."
Well my brother, do you think that the Lord Jesus is preaching another persons doctrine?
Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the creator of heaven and earth?
Or do you believe that the Lord Jesus is a little god next to a big God called the Father?
"(John 8:50) And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth."
Tell me my brother, who's glory is the Lord Jesus Christ seeking?
Is He seeking another persons glory?
No, no my brother, you should know better than that.
I previously have been reading some of your posts and have given you an Amen because they were very good, but the doctrine of God you need to rethink, or you are transgressing the first commandment of the Lord .
Kind regards
Paul
Hi Paul, i'll post a response to your reply over at my blog after i respond here. I believe that the Father and the Son are distinct Persons. The Bible indicates that Christ did nothing of Himself (of His Person apart from the Father's will). Notice what these verses are saying:
(John 5:30, 31) I can OF MINE OWN SELF do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness OF MYSELF, my witness is not true.
Christ seeks not His own will, but the will of the Father who sent Him. This clearly indicates that the Son has a will, and the Father has a will. Two wills indicate two Persons.
(John 7:17, 18) If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak OF MYSELF. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Christ clearly indicates that He spoke the Father's words, and if He spoke of Himself (His own words apart from the Father's will), He would be seeking His own glory. As our sinless substitute, he could not do so because to do so would have been a sin.
(John 7:28) Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come OF MYSELF, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
Here, we see that Christ didn't come of Himself, but the Father sent Him. He says that He who sent Him is true. In John 5:31 (above), Christ said that if He bear witness of Himself, His witness is not true.
(John 8:28) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing OF MYSELF; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Christ does nothing of Himself, but the Father teaches Him. Does the Father teach Himself?
(John 8:42) Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I OF MYSELF, but he sent me.
The Son came from God (the Father). How do you explain that?
(John 12:49) For I have not spoken OF MYSELF; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Here, we see the Father sent the Son and gave Him commandment, what He should say. Does God the Father give commandments to Himself?
(John 14:10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not OF MYSELF: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
The Father dwells in the Son and does the works. The Son did not speak of Himself. He spoke the Father's words.
(John 5:18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
(John 3:35) The Father LOVETH the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
(John 5:20) For the Father LOVETH the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
The Father loves the Son. Are these just words with no meaning attached to them? Like Calvinism, those who try to make God one Person, have to make a number of verses not mean what they say. Hope you reconsider your position of not recognizing the Persons of the Father and the Son. If you make them one Person, you deny both, in a sense.
Yes Sean, I know that you believe that and that is a great error.
If the Lord Jesus can do nothing of himself, then he is useless and he would not be the Lord God the Almighty.
If you believe that the Lord Jesus is the Lord God and this other person whom you call Father is also a God, then you believe in TWO gods.
That puts you in a very dangerous position my brother.
You need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and Jesus made it clear that He and the Father are ONE and not TWO as you have said.
Now, if He and the Father are one, then Jesus would be the 'ONE' who is called the Father.
Jesus said,' Have I been so long with you, and you have not come to know Me, Sean? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him and have seen Him (John 14: x)'.
Hi Paul, i know you think you speak on behalf of God, but you've put words in Jesus' mouth in your reply to me. May God draw you unto a true understanding of salvation so you can receive the gift of salvation that is only by grace, not of works.
As for your comments, you made a number of misrepresentations and errors:
You said: "If the Lord Jesus can do nothing of himself, then he is useless and he would not be the Lord God the Almighty."
That's your opinion, but the Bible says:
(Philippians 2:7-9) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
I already showed that If Christ had spoken His own doctrine, He would have been seeking His own glory and in sin. Christ only sought to glorify the Father. He only sought to do the Father's will. This is why He was taught of the Father. This is why He could do nothing of Himself. You miss the whole concept of the last becoming first. Christ washed feet because He was acting as our substitute and example setter. He became the last and was made the first. He was obedient to the Father's will, unto the death of the Cross. Likewise, the Bible says:
(Ephesians 5:2) And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
(John 15:12-14) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
The Bible says:
(Mark 9:35) And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of all.
This concept of the last becoming first and the first becoming last, is something you're not familiar with, i see.
You said: "If you believe that the Lord Jesus is the Lord God and this other person whom you call Father is also a God, then you believe in TWO gods."
If you believe that the Father and the Son are one person, then you deny both. The titles become meaningless when you do that. God has revealed Himself to us in the form of 3 Persons, not 3 figureheads. God is not suffering from a mental disorder that causes Him to talk to Himself. Such a notion is blasphemy. He really is 3 Persons. This is what the church has historically taught as a foundational truth of Christianity.
You said: "Now, if He and the Father are one, then Jesus would be the 'ONE' who is called the Father."
You could just as easily say that the Father is the ONE God:
(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Christ said:
(John 12:44) Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
See how your position, when taken to it's logical conclusion, leads to the denial of Christ? It doesn't matter which Person you deny, if you deny the Father-Son relationship, you deny both Persons of the Godhead. It's very dangerous to redefine God.
Thanks brother Sean for your patience with me.
And yes my friend I do speak the word of the the Lord just as He has equipped me to do so (1 Peter 4:11), and any man who does not speak according to His Word (the Bible) is because there is no light in them (Isa.8:20).
I have been walking very closely with my Lord and only God Jesus Christ (Jude 1:25) for 32 years, therefore one can expect that I ought to know Him after all that time and I can assure you that He is not three people at all, and neither is He revealed in three persons.
God is revealed in Jesus Christ alone (one person).
The trinity is NOT in the Bible!
I think that the devil, the father of lies has cleverly cooked up that nonsensical doctrine the trinity to deceive even the elect if possible and many good men of God have fallen headlong into his master-deception.
OK, let's deal with the roots of the trinity doctrine and I need you to answer a few questions so that we will have a solid base to work from.
After we have established a right foundation I will answer all those Scripture passages which seemingly indicate that God is many persons.
According to your understanding and belief;
1# Is the Lord Jesus Christ the Lord God the Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth?
2# Is the Father another person, other than Jesus Christ and also the Lord God the Almighty?
3# Is the Holy Spirit a separate person from Jesus and the Father and also the Lord God the Almighty?
God is not a mental case. He really is 3 distinct Persons. If He isn't a Triune God, then you have to believe that He talked to Himself and acted as if He was a Father and a Son when He never was those Persons. How can you believe that God spoke as figureheads and basically play acted like in a movie?
The definition of Modalism:
"the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature."
The problem with this definition of God, is that the Son talked to the Father, and the Father to the Son. Did God change modes inbetween His speaking to Himself? This still sounds like only 3 figureheads to me, and not 3 Persons.
Sean,
"God is not a mental case," and neither is He a Siamese triplet.
Well my brother, you should have said, 'THEY really are 3 distinct Persons.'
But you said, "He really is 3 distinct Persons."
'HE' is singular and it is impossible for Him to be 3 persons, and I think you would agree with me.
If God is ONE, then the Lord Jesus has to be that ONE, so then He has to speak to Himself because there is no other God to talk to, just the same when He had to swear, He had to swear by Himself because their was no greater one than Himself to swear by (Jeremiah 22:5).
This is important, if the Lord Jesus is not your God and your heavenly Father, then who is your God and Father??
No my friend, I'm not a Modalist and God did not come in three different modes.
I'm a simple believer in Jesus Christ who is God over all (Rom.9:5) and before Him was no god formed nor will there be one after Him (Isa.43:10). He is the same yesterday, today and forever and He does not change.
The trinity doctrine is such a destructive doctrine and I'm glad that the Lord has brought it to your attention. It would be kind of you to answer my 3 Points, so that we have some platform to work from.
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