The Crown of Jesus Christ!
Jesus Christ the King of Kings and Lord
of Lords! (Rev. 19:16)
And on His head are many crowns (Rev.
19:12).
The word 'GOD' is not a name, but a
CROWN, it is the title which belongs to the King, Jesus Christ our
Lord.
Jesus Christ is the only person who
holds that title 'God' from Genesis 1:1 throughout the entire Bible
to Revelation 22:31-36, I (JESUS) am the Alpha and the Omega, the
First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
The word 'LORD' is not a name, but a
CROWN, a title which belongs to the King, Jesus Christ our Lord and
God.
The word 'FATHER' is not a name, but a
CROWN, a title which only belongs to the King, Jesus Christ our Lord
and God and Father of all (Eph. 4:6).
Jesus said, “You do not know me or my
Father, if you knew me, you would know my Father also, but from now
on you know Him and have seen Him (John 8 :19 and John 14:7).
For to us a child is borne, to us a son
is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be
called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince
of Peace. (Isa. 9:6).
The word 'HOLY SPIRIT' is not a name,
but a CROWN, a title which belongs to the King, Jesus Christ our Lord
and God.
The Lord is the SPIRIT (2 Cor. 3:17)
and he who worships Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John
4:24).
The name 'JESUS' is not a crown, but it
is the Name who holds all the above CROWNS plus many more.
But to me the CROWN of THORNS is the
crown which has cancelled all of my sins against me and I am free at
last (John 8:36).
Please give me a comment.
Add Your Comment(68)
The Crown of Jesus Christ!Posted by Paul G Saturday, February 15, 2014
After reading many creeds and belief statements
I decided to stick to my own
68 Comments:
Paul,
I like this.
Thanks Tim.
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I appreciate your writing and most of it is correct. However, you continue to miss the mark on the Y'shua/God connection. As with all false doctrine, God anticipates your false doctrine in the Tanakh.
A Little History Lesson
Remember when Moshe asked God to revealed his name, God responded, "Hayah…Hayah. I AM THAT I AM" and he said, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
And God said moreover unto Moses, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name FOREVER, and this is my memorial unto all generations."
Did you notice that it says FOREVER.
God is not into names, because he knew that you and others like you would elevate his name above God himself and his Word. In essence, you have made an idol out of the name, Jesus. It’s not about the name, it’s about the one behind the name. That is why he didn't answer Moshe with a definite name.
Even in Psalm 138:2, he tells us, "...for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." It was the Word of God, the Truth, his promise that came to fruition. Y’shua or Jesus is the gift of salvation. His name even means deliverance through a human agency and salvation in the spiritual sense.
In Psalm 119:41 David, seeing his salvation in the future, says to God, “Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy Y’shua (Jesus), by the way of thy word.”
As for the Y'shua/Jesus/God connection, it was the man Y'shua/Jesus that was indwelled by God's Holy Spirit.
In Isaiah 11:2, talking about the Messiah, it says, "...and the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and he will be in awe of the Lord."
In Isaiah 42:1 and Matthew 12:18 it is written, "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles."
Acts 10:38, It is written, "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."
Finally, the connection or division can be seen in Mathew 12:31-32. Jesus says you can sin against me and say anything about me that you want and you will be forgiven, but sin or blaspheme the power behind me, God, and it will be held against you forever. He is sying there's a difference between me and the power or Spirit of God that dwells inside me.
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
I firmly believe that you are a child of God. Your testimony displays that. You rely on God for your Y’shua, Jesus, Salvation and that has saved you. However, you are breaking the first commandment by making the name of Jesus, an idol. Also, you are guilty of doing the same thing as our Jewish brother did when Y'shua/Jesus came to proclaim the Gospel of God. You are failing to see that separation between Messiah the man and Messiah the God.
Praise God!!!! The perfect sacrificial blood of Y’shua, Jesus, covers all our sins.
No Doubt;
Brother Keith 'I AM THAT I AM' is NOT a name, 'YHWH' it is unpronounceable, that is because the Lord Jesus didn't want them to know His Name till He was born into His own creation in Luke 1:31, and that is the first time when the whole world knew the Name of God 'JESUS' which is the Name who is above all names and only at that Name every knee ought to bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord God the Almighty to the glory of the title God the Father.
Remember the Lord declares that His NAME is 'jealous' (Ex. 34:14) and we both know that this is NOT a name, it is a declaration to say that you shouldn't have another god next of Jesus Christ, or you will experience the consequences of His jealousy.
He is like the husband of a bride who finds out that his bride has another lover next to him, what do you think he will do with here?
I see the free gift of salvation is 'ETERNAL LIFE' and Jesus is the giver of that life.
Also, David did not know the Name of the Lord, he only called Him by the title Lord or God, and you should know that there are not two Lords, the Lord Jesus and the Lord God.
You see my friend, if you do not worship Jesus only, you cannot worship the Father in spirit and in truth.
If you think the Father to be another person than Jesus, you then worship two persons whom you claim to be God.
But we will worship only Jesus Christ just as they did in the Scriptures (Matthew 2:11 + 9:18 + 14:33 + 15:25 + 18:26 + 28:9+17) and many more.
By the way Keith, there are not two Messiahs, 'the Messiah the man and the Messiah the God', but only one Messiah Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
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I hate spelling errors and then you have to delete and retype it...
Keith,
I did not take it that way as you did. I did not think this one was about the trinity concept. But I have used your words in one of my arguments so I thank you for backing that up.
Paul,
A couple of things now that it has been brought to the front here:
1. Why would God tell Moses to tell the Israelites that "I AM" sent him? WOuldn't it be because that is what they knew Him as? If you know someone as something wouldn't that be considered a name?
2. When He said His name IS jealous. I am not for sure if He saying that this was something we should call Him but an adjective. Such as "I am alive". This does not mean my name is alive. It is desrcibing me. His NAME is jealous. An adjective showing the Name in and of itself is powerful and as you would agree we should not serve any other God with any other name: Allah, Shiva, MamboJambo, or whoever. But when He is taking to Moses He gives him something that is unpronouncable. YHWH as the best we can translate is His name. And I explain what that is on my blog. And as Keith said it is His name FOREVER.
3. Why would God not want people to know His name? Wouldn't He want people to pray to Him calling on His name? Genesis 4:26, when they began to call on His name what did they say if they did not know it?
4. Do you think no one else was named Jesus? Or Yehsua? The Bible even says there were others with that name. Why would His Godly name be similar to humans? Jesus is an earthly name so we can communicate and connect with Him. His name means or IS savior.
5. Lastly, again, YOU say we are worshiping two gods. YOU can not understand how they are one. Maybe this mystery has been hidden from you...
Tim and Paul,
I apologize. I did not mean to imply that my comments were about the Trinity, but more about holding one name above another as God's name. I meant to imply that Paul's reverence is all about idolizing a name above God.
Paul,
You said,
"Brother Keith 'I AM THAT I AM' is NOT a name."
Please reread my comment again. I said that God was being allusive about giving his name. The exact words I used were:
"God is not into names, because he knew that you and others like you would elevate his name above God himself and his Word. In essence, you have made an idol out of the name, Jesus. It’s not about the name, it’s about the one behind the name. THAT IS WHY HE DIDN'T ANSWER MOSHE WITH A DEFINITE NAME."
You also said the God's name is unpronounceable. This is another incorrect gentile teaching. The Torah says that God forbids you to say his name IN VAIN, not pronounce it.
The Talmud tells us that the name of God was uttered ten time only by the High Priest on Yom Kippur. This was done out of fear that anyone else would use it improperly.
I really wish you could get past your erroneous traditional teachings and get back to the Word of God and allow his Spirit to lead you into the truth instead of your local minister.
You said,
"I see the free gift of salvation is 'ETERNAL LIFE' and Jesus is the giver of that life."
I am sorry for keeping on pounding your erroneous teachings back upon you. But, once again, if you read the scriptures for yourself and be led by God's Holy Spirit and not let others do it for you, then you would know that you have eternal life with or without relying on the sacrifice of Y'shua.
By believing and relying on the sacrificial blood of Y'shua/Jesus, you have chosen to spend it with God instead of Hell.
As for the multidimensionality of God, I will not get back into that discussion with. I know God will explain it to you either here on earth or in paradise with him.
Shalom, Your Brother in the Messiah
Tim;
You said;
"1. Why would God tell Moses to tell the Israelites that "I AM" sent him? Wouldn't it be because that is what they knew Him as? If you know someone as something wouldn't that be considered a name?"
Well Tim, it was Moses who wanted to know God's Name (Exo. 3:13) just like Manoah wanted to know the Lords Name and He answered, "Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?" (Jud.13:18).
So then the Lord told no one His Name till He was born into His own creation in the likeness of a man.
In the Old Testament the Lord was only known by titles and descriptions.
Moses did not go to Pharaoh and said, the YHWH sent me, because he couldn't pronounce it, so he called Him Lord and God just like anyone else.
If you are a dentist, that title would not be considered to be your name.
YHWH is impossible to translate. The Jehovah Witnesses tried and cooked up a name 'Jehovah', but not everybody agreed to that name, so others thought that 'Yahweh' would be better.
But all that is only because they will not believe that Jesus Christ is that Lord and God of the Old Testament.
YHWH is not a name and neither is that FOREVER.
But "The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob has sent me to you." "THIS is MY name FOREVER, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation (Ex. 3;15)."
Tim, there is only one 'JESUS' who is called the Christ, and the whole calendar is dated after the one who is called JESUS CHRIST.
You said;
"5. Lastly, again, YOU say we are worshipping two gods. YOU can not understand how they are one. Maybe this mystery has been hidden from you."
I surely understand that 'THEY' are not ONE.
If you think for a while, I'm sure you will give me an Amen.
Concerning the mystery of Christ it has been revealed to me (Col.1:26-27) and I proclaim that mystery to everyone (Col.4:3).
Yes Keith, God is all about His Name, His Name must be made known throughout the whole world (Isa. 52:6 and Isa. 43:6-7 and Heb. 2:12 and Rev. 22:4) 'Holy be thy Name'. The reason for that is, there is NO OTHER NAME given whereby we must be saved.
Tom, Dick and Harry can't save, ONLY Jesus Christ can, and whoever believes in him will be saved and those who don't believe will be condemned.
If you suffer from a deadly disease and there is only one doctor in the world who can heal you, you surely would want to know his NAME.
Well brother, it seems to me that you have a problem with names. Why can't you call Moses 'Moses'? If you talk about a 'MOSHE ', nobody will know what you mean, perhaps your local minister taught you that, but surely not the Bible or the Spirit of the Lord.
You said;
"I am sorry for keeping on pounding your erroneous teachings back upon you. But, once again, if you read the scriptures for yourself and be led by God's Holy Spirit and not let others do it for you, then you would know that you have eternal life with or without relying on the sacrifice of Y'shua.
By believing and relying on the sacrificial blood of Y'shua/Jesus, you have chosen to spend it with God instead of Hell."
I'm sorry Keith, but I don't understand what you mean. Can you please explain a bit more so that I know what you are talking about.
Paul,
"Well Tim, it was Moses who wanted to know God's Name (Exo. 3:13) just like Manoah wanted to know the Lords Name and He answered, "Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?" (Jud.13:18)."
All true. Here is my take on it. Many other translations will not say it is a secret but will will say it is "wonderful". I agree it would be too hard for Manoah to understand and say. But look at the different results. Both of them spent time with the LORD but Moses came down with the Sh'kinah glowing around him. Perhaps the difference is Moses was given way more (not just the commandments) then Manoah did. Perhaps. I just don't think we got the full story in either one but thanks for reminding me of this passage.
"In the Old Testament the Lord was only known by titles and descriptions."
I will agree with that for 99.9% of the time. See above to remember why. Most Hebrew writing just says HaShem (the Name) or Adonai (LORD).
"Moses did not go to Pharaoh and said, the YHWH sent me, because he couldn't pronounce it, so he called Him Lord and God just like anyone else."
Correct, he went to the Israelites who would know.
"YHWH is impossible to translate. The Jehovah Witnesses tried and cooked up a name 'Jehovah', but not everybody agreed to that name, so others thought that 'Yahweh' would be better."
Really? Are you sure aout that? The Jehovah's Witnesses started that? Here is just one site I went to to try and find something about that: http://www.yhwh.com/jehovah.htm
"YHWH is not a name and neither is that FOREVER."
Disagree but you knew that.
"Tim, there is only one 'JESUS' who is called the Christ, and the whole calendar is dated after the one who is called JESUS CHRIST."
Of course. But that does not answer my question. There were at least three or four Jesuses in the Bible alone. Why would God call Himself Jesus if humans would have the name as well? How did humans hear of the name before He said it? Jesus is just an earthly name. Flesh would not hold the "NAME" of God. This is why Jesus was a man and God. His flesh was human. Everything about his flesh was human. Everything about His Spirit was God.
"I surely understand that 'THEY' are not ONE."
Amen!!! :) Just remember I am not like the Trinitarians you have described. I do not even like the word trinitarian as a desription.
"Concerning the mystery of Christ it has been revealed to me (Col.1:26-27) and I proclaim that mystery to everyone (Col.4:3)."
Nice. I wish we would agree on all things but alas we are still brothers.
Maybe I am skipping over it but I still don't know why God would not want anyone to know is name when He says call upon Him. Did you address that?
PS: Would like more input from you on my site on Bible Lessons. I have a new one about creation versus theisitc evolution. Promise me not to change the subject though. :)
Yes Tim, Isaiah said the same, 'His Name shall be called WONDERFUL ' (Isa. 9:6).
But again, wonderful is not a name, it is a description telling us how wonderful the Lord Jesus is in the flesh, forgiving our sins, healing our sicknesses etc.
Manoah was a wise man who also met the Lord and he dared to ask Him for His Name, but in his time the Name of the Lord had not been given and no one knew His Name, they only knew Him by the title Lord, or God.
But from the time of His birth everybody ought to know His Name and also confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord and God of all creation.
There never was, there never is and there never will be an other Name for God, other than 'Jesus' who is called the Christ.
In the Old Testament men called on His titles God or Lord.
According to my understanding, 'the Christ' means, God came in the flesh, (veiled the incarnate Deity).
The Israelites did not know the Lords Name to this very day. They still wait for Him to come and set their nation free, but when He came to His own, they received Him not, but handed Him over to sinful man and crucified Him according to the will of the Lord.
Yes the Lord Jesus wanted an earthly Name, He came in appearance just like one of us, the carpenters son from Nazareth. He was not wearing different clothing to stand out of a crowd, He didn't raise His voice in the streets, He was in appearance just like an ordinary man with an ordinary human name JESUS.
Because of that and that He claimed to be the Lord God they took offence of Him.
They expected the Lord to turn up in the latest model chariot and in a purple robe with a crown of gold and in great splendour etc. to physically set the nation Israel free.
Concerning the JWs. We both know that every lie and deception originated from the father of lies which is the devil and it makes no difference whether it came through one man or a body of people.
The JWs happened to own that name 'Jehovah Witnesses' and are in disobedience to the command of the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:8), just like the Catholics who cooked up the trinity, but originally it came from the devil who used his servants to promote his lies.
In English, he is called Jesus.
In Russia, Hungary, he is called Esus.
In Israel, he is called Yeshua, Yahoshua and Yahushua.
In Arabia and the rest of the Middle East, he is called Yishua.
In Chinese, Japan and Korea, he is called Yezu.
In Spanish, he is called Jesús.
In Albania, he is called Yezu.
In Armenia, he is called Yesusan.
In Czechoslavakia, he is called Yezish.
In Greek, he is called Esus.
In India, he is called Eshu.
In Iceland, he is called Yeshus.
And on and on, it goes.
You see Paul, Jesus, as the name of the Messiah, is a newcomer, occurring around the 16th century. Even Tyndale,in his 12th century writing, pronounced it Yeshu. Yeshua or Yehoshua has been used as a name since the 3rd century before the Messiah's birth.
Bottom line is that not whether you use Jesus, Yeshua, or whatever, it's all about giving praise and honor to the one behind the name and that is God.
In the end, when time is no more, it will be
I AM.
Paul,
You wrote:
""By believing and relying on the sacrificial blood of Y'shua/Jesus, you have chosen to spend it with God instead of Hell."
I'm sorry Keith, but I don't understand what you mean. Can you please explain a bit more so that I know what you are talking about?"
Rather than write the whole explanation, please read my post on how to be saved at the following link.
I Want To Be Saved
"Well brother, it seems to me that you have a problem with names. Why can't you call Moses 'Moses'? If you talk about a 'MOSHE ', nobody will know what you mean, perhaps your local minister taught you that, but surely not the Bible or the Spirit of the Lord.
As I said before, I interchange names, first, to edify you, secondly, to follow the Lord's command given to us through Saul, Paul.
First to the Jew then the Gentile.
You see, I believe that's the major difference between you and me. You appear to be gentile-centric. Embracing the worldly side of the Gospel while shunning your Jewish roots.
Correct me if I am wrong.
I won't be correcting you because AMEN!
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Paul and Tim,
"Well Tim, it was Moses who wanted to know God's Name (Exo. 3:13) just like Manoah wanted to know the Lords Name and He answered, "Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?" (Jud.13:18)."
First of all, this was clearly a physical manifestation of God.
Secondly, if you perform an exegesis on this verse, it becomes very clear. It is NOT specifically about God's name, but who he is.
The Hebrew Word translated as "wonderful" here is "Pele". In one verse, it used as a noun while the other uses it as an adjective.
Also, the Hebrew Word, "Shem" is translated as name.
An exegesis of the verse gives us an insight into what the Angel of the Lord was saying to Manoach, Manoah. He was not saying that God's NAME is SECRET.
The word, "Pele" means Wonderful, admirable, obvious but not fully understood, partially secret.
The word, "Shem" is used as a one word description of the individual or circumstances surrounding his birth or perceived life.
A great example of this can be seen in our native American culture. When a baby is born, the father will walk outside and name his child with the first thing he notices with any of his senses, IE: Running Bear, Babbling Brook, etc.
Let's look at Judges 13:17-18 again, with this understanding.
When Manoach asks the Angel of the Lord, "What is your name, that when your words happen, we may honor you?" He is asking, "Who are you, that we may honor you.
When the Angel of the LORD responded to him, he was saying, "Why do you ask, Who I AM?" Isn't it obvious?" "Do I actually have to paint a picture for you?"
This becomes clearer later in the chapter in Judges 13:22. Read it for yourself, the Angel of the Lord never said who he actually was, but Manaoch said to his wife, "Manoach said to his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God."
In another flavor, and this is where Tim is more correct. An alternate response to Manoach and, if I may, to Moses at the burning bush.
"Even if I told you fully, who I AM, you could not fully comprehend me."
I hope this helps. In lieu of this, I ask to to follow our instruction found in Acts 17:11, "..to receive the message with all eagerness of heart, but search the scriptures to see if it were so."
Keith,
I do not see where I would disagree with that. I would say that is what I was saying. :)
Paul,
He wanted to choose a human name? Well, since He was human when He was born I can see that. But are saying His heavenly name from the beginning of time has always been Jesus and man just happened to pick the same name? I still do not see why He would hide His name if it was that easy. I get that the fact that Jewish people do not see who the Messiah is but they had all other prophecies as well and many Jews did believe, even without knowing His name as Jesus. As Keith said, the name, although is above all names, is not what we need to focus on but whom He represents---God. Jesus is the image of God.
Brother Keith, the major difference between you and me.
You appear to be a Jewish-centric and I would be considered Jesus Christ-centric, perhaps that's obvious.
Tell me what message should we receive with all eagerness of heart?
Is it that the message of the Scriptures really means something different than what it says?
Perhaps you should ask yourself; why is it that you are trying to diminish the the Name of God.
If you want to be encouraging, you are supposed to magnify His Name and not diminish it in another language so that nobody can be sure in which God to believe.
I think you do that because you really don't believe that the God of the Old testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. You think that the God of the OT. is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and that it was the Father who sent his Son Jesus into this world.
Well brother, that is far from the truth. You need to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and preach only Christ and Him crucified and nothing else.
You see, even if you have the knowledge of the meaning of every word in the Bible but don't believe it, it will profit you nothing, and you are wasting your time.
There is no point of having a religion and not believing in the Lord Jesus Christ alone.
Paul,
Jesus was a Jew. You can't change that. He said that he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfill. Not one yod or title shall shall in no way pass away before all is fulfilled.
My friend, I have only attempted to expose you to the truths of the scriptures. I attempt to edify you with things that has the only intention of breaking down the man made traditional teachings that you cling to and are holding you down.
I will continue to stop in an reveal to you where you are going awry and let the God guide your way.
Whether you choose to change is between you and God. Honestly, I have no stake in it, except for a sadness that you are missing out on a closeness that I know you really want with God. He's calling you to step up to the next level. Will you answer?
Shalom Aleichem,
Your Friend and Brother in the Messiah,
Keith
Ah brother Keith, you are so kind to me, even though I have been so horrible to you at times.
I'm so glad that you are so patient, kind and long-suffering, a Godly quality which I obviously lack.
I know that the Lord Jesus has forgiven me much, and to him whom has been forgiven little loves little (Luke 7:47).
And yes my brother I nearly agree with you that Jesus was a Jew.
All though He was considered to be a Jew according to the flesh and He was called the Lion of the tribe of Judah. But according to God Jesus had NO father, NO mother, NO genealogy, NO beginning and NO end, (Hebr.7:3).
So that makes it clear that Jesus really had NO nationality and He didn't belong to anyone, therefore He is called the only begotten Son of God, which means the only one of a kind.
You do well to expose me to the truth of the Scriptures, but I preach and proclaim the truth.
The truth is not a theory or a doctrine or a revelation, but it is the Lord Jesus Christ just as He said, 'I am the truth' (John 14:6).
And no man can have a closeness with God unless he is close to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul,
I have to ask you. How can what you say line up with this 'For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.' ! Corinthians ch. 15 v.27?
'For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.' 1 Corinthians 15:27 ? '
Brenda, that doesn't say or indicate that God is two persons or two different identities.
If you believe that, and I know that you believe that, then it makes it impossible for you to rightly interpret the text, because you are already starting with the wrong premise.
It is so important that you believe in only ONE God and not in TWO.
And that 'ONE' God has to be the Lord Jesus Christ alone.
This duality or trinity doctrine is like a cancer of the soul, it erodes and eats away and muddles a clear view of the Glory of our Lord and God Jesus Christ.
The whole chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians is an explanation of the resurrection from the dead. Starting with the fact of Christ's resurrection from 1 to 20 and from 20 to 50 it explains the order of the resurrection, and from 50 to 58 is the mystery of the resurrection explained.
Now I think that we need many pages to explain those metaphors and illustrations.
First, we need to know, who is putting what under who's feet?
Both of us are mature to know that there isn't one God who put everything under another God's feet.
In fact nothing has been put under anyone's literal feet, Brenda, those are called metaphors, those are illustrations to show us the shifting and exchange of powers, authorities and domains from the Spirit to the body, from God to Christ and from Christ to us etc.
Now, from God to Christ I do not mean from one person to another person, but from the Spirit to the body as it is in the resurrection so that death is swallowed up in victory.
Even though we are born again, our body's still die, therefore in the resurrection they must be changed and take on immortality, and to explain that change they have used metaphors.
That chapter of the resurrection is so interesting and exciting that it needs closer attention than just in a few words.
In Chapter 11 verse 7, God said let us go down and confound their language. Who would the "us" be in that verse?
I posted this on several of your posts because I did not know which ones you were still reading
I'm not sure Tim. What do you think?
One thing is sure, there were NOT three Gods who came down from heaven to confound their language.
If you carefully read the text, verse 5 and 8 and 9 tells you that it was the Lord (singular) who did it.
So, perhaps a Royal 'US' ? what do you think?
No Paul,
I did not say there were two Gods, only One God, the Father, and the Son of God Jesus who has been made our Lord by that Father. 'For He hath put all things under his feet.'(v.27a) Jesus is the express image of God to us.
However, this is how it will end. 'And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.'
Paul,
You are right, there was not three gods who went down but One God. But you know how I feel about that.
God is speaking to someone. SOmeone who has the power to do Godly things. Could He be talking to angels? Perhaps. But then the next verse says God scattered them, not messengers of God. Putting all the verses (5, 8, 9) together means He was speaking to someone and that someone who was God also. Not another God but Himself. Three IN One. I know you will not accept this but it is quite simple to understand.
Elohim is plural but whenit is used it has a singular verb.
Brenda, you said, 'I did not say there were two Gods, only One God, the Father, and the Son of God Jesus who has been made our Lord by that Father. 'For He hath put all things under his feet.'(v.27a) Jesus is the express image of God to us.'
But do you believe that is a metaphor?
Or do you believe that the Lord Jesus has been made Lord by somebody called Father?
Tim;
So then we agree that only one God went down to confound their language, if there is only one, now please tell me which ONE?
Yes Paul,
He is the Father, but because His Son is the mediator between Him and us, the Son acts as a surrogate which is as the dictionary puts it 'a substitute, especially a person deputizing for another in a specific role or office.' God the Father is the Almighty, the Spirit.
Paul,
I am not going down that road again. It doesn't matter if I think God has 1000 manifestations, he is still only one. I can not help it if you can not understand that concept. I can keep asking you the same thing. If you go to the store, which one of you goes, your spirit, your soul, or your body? Your answer would or should be, all three yet still only you.
Brenda, you are excellent in the English language, and that adds to your gift in poetry.
But the problem is still there.
Because you don't believe that Jesus is the Father, therefore the back door is still open for another identity to enter and take the place of the Father.
You said, "He is the Father", seemingly correct, but tell me Who is that 'Father'? Who is that 'HE'?
If it is not Jesus, then it has to be someone else, so please give me his name?
How can you worship the Father in Spirit and in truth if you don't know His Name?
The Scriptures tells you to worship one God and that is the Father, therefore you ought to worship the Lord Jesus Christ alone in Spirit and in truth just like all of us ((Matthew 2:11 + 9:18 + 14:33 + 15:25 + 18:26 + 28:9+17) and many more.
Brenda, if you don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Father, then necessity demands that you believe in two gods and that you will pray through one god to another god, and worst of all that you will worship two gods.
Therefore it is most important that you deal with that serious problem.
You said. "but because His Son is the mediator between Him and us"
Again Brenda, that is a metaphor.
God does not have a son whom He sent into this world to mediate.
God 'IS' the Son who came into this world, so when you speak to the Lord Jesus Christ you are speaking direct to the Lord God the Almighty the creator of heaven and earth.
Tim, the Lord has not three manifestations.
The Lord manifested Himself in flesh, one person the Lord Jesus Christ and no other.
Paul,
you believe so many things in the Bible to be metaphors that in order not to be double minded you would have to believe that Jesus Himself is a metaphor.
The Father is the Almighty - El Shaddai. The Son is Jesus Christ who was born into this world as a sinless man, born of the Spirit of the Almighty so that sinful man could be reconciled back to God. While I am in this world Jesus is my Lord, the express image of God the Father to me, that is because God has given all authority to Him. Through Jesus we can see the face of God.
What is yet to come is described in 1 Corinthians ch.15 v.24 'Then comes the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.'
He was here on earth in Genesis when He walked the earth and He now walks the earth as the Holy Spirit. He has manifested three ways.
Please answer my question: When you went to the store who went, your spirit, your soul, or your body? If your body went then what happened to your spirit and soul? If your spirit only went, how did you get there? Of course the answer is you went, all three parts of you. Three in one. And if you are three in one and you are made in His image then you can figure the rest out.
I am not trying to be facetious or provoking. I just want you to listen instead of just hearing.
Jesus is the lord. Jesus is the father. Jesus is the savior and the spirit. It is an easy concept. Why is this so hard for you to understand? There are not three separate gods, but one God. I have never said or meant anything different than that. Trinty does not mean three different. It means three as one.
Yes Brenda, the Bible is full of metaphors and I think it is important to discern the difference.
When Jesus said, 'I am the door and any man has to enter by me'.
That doesn't mean that the Lord Jesus is a literal door etc.
If the Father is the Almighty God and Jesus is the Mighty God (Isa. 9:6), then you believe in TWO God's.
You said, 'that is because God has given all authority to Him.'
Which God has given Him all authority?
You said, 'Through Jesus we can see the face of God.'
No Brenda, when you look into the face of Jesus you look into the face of the Lord God the Almighty the creator of heaven and earth.
Yes Tim, 'trinity' means three different people or identities or persons, and every trinitarian will tell you that, I surely know.
A body without the spirit is dead, it will do nothing and it will go nowhere.
You said, 'it means three as one.'
Do you mean three apples as one apple? Or three slices as one apple?
No Tim, think it through.
If the Father is not the Lord Jesus Christ, then you believe in TWO gods, it's as simple as that.
Hi everyone!
(I've read some of the previous comments re freewill)
Question re freewill:
If God is Love, wouldn't Love be the reason that we were given freewill?
Without freewill how could there be sincere, genuine Love towards each other, or towards God?
Could there be perfect Love without freewill, or Love at all for that matter?
Sev
To finish my comments on this post Paul, all I can say is 'Thank God for Jesus'.
God bless.
On "Yahoo! Answers" (@RICOCHETakaSC) 2 years ago I posted this:
A King and a Crown of Thorns.
The rather simplistic thought that I had was, that if we were all given a Red Rose that day, then it was without the thorns attached.
. . . but is there a deeper meaning ???
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What was/is the significance/meaning of the thorns, and the relevance to how Life and Love are viewed today ???
Of all the beautiful flowers that exist, why is it that a Rose (a flower with thorns, and a red one at that) is the one most often given as a show of Love ???
What did that Crown made of thorns, some 2000 years ago, symbolise ???
_______________________________
PS: I know it's probably a strange question, but it's somewhat relevant I guess... problem is I have a lot of questions that I can't ask for fear, because I'm still unsure about what is/isn't blasphemy, what is/isn't forgivable.
Sev
Paul,
You did not answer my question and you kind of twisted the rest of my points to make your own.
You said "every trinitarian will tell you that, I surely know". And yet, I have not said three different people or persons. I can agree with identities but not as in schizophrenia but because we all have different identities when it comes to who we are talking to and who we are projecting ourselves to be. You didn't compare apples to apples, not even apples to oranges but compared apples to divinity. Three as one is totally realistic. If you answer my question you will see that. But to answer your question it would be one apple with its core, it rind, and its meat.
Jesus is lord. Jesus is my savior. And yes Jesus is the father as well. I will let it go at that. We agree there but you can not comprehend the real concept of the Trinity or Triune God.
So, as with all these other conversations so far it will start to go into circles. Until next time...
Brenda, I agree with you, but it is better to say, thank you Jesus for giving yourself to me.
Well Sev. I have a problem tuning into your frequency of thinking.
What does love have to do with free will?
And what does God's love have to do with His free will?
What do you think that love is, is it a feeling? Or an attitude? Or an action?
Tim, if Jesus is not the Father, then both together have to be two persons, I mean two complete persons and not aspects or parts or whatever.
It doesn't need to go in circles, if you would believe in Jesus.
It is Jesus who said , 'Hear O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE.'
If you would believe that, then you also would believe when Jesus said, 'If you really know me, you would know my Father also, but from now on you know him and have seen him. He who looks at me has seen the Father, and anyone who has seen me has seen the one who sent me.'
Brother Tim, if you would believe that Jesus Christ is the 'ONE', the only ONE, then you would agree with me and the Scriptures and condemn the trinity just as I do or better.
Because you're of the circumcision of the heart, therefore it is easy for you to repent. The world and the Churches may not love you, but no one can separate you from the love of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul
"What does love have to do with free will?
And what does God's love have to do with His free will?
What do you think that love is, is it a feeling? Or an attitude? Or an action?"
Are you seriously asking me these questions?
I would have thought the answers were obvious!
I REST MY CASE
PS: Lots of Love, Sev.
Ciao!
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous,
You are correct. True Love is a manifestation that grows out of free will. Without free will, we would be nothing but robots.
Brenda,
You said, "Thank God for Jesus!"
Amen!
Thank God for our Messiah who is the Son of Man and the Son of God, the ultimate and worthy sacrifice for the covering of our sins and our reconciliation!
"No Doubt"
Thanks for understanding the important point I was trying to make... others appear too busy going around in circles trying to trip each other up, and contradicting themselves in the process.
A time will come when all questions asked will be answered and the Truth will be revealed... but until then, I think instead of trying to trip each other up, we should try to understand each others point of view and ALWAYS SEEK THE TRUTH ...admitting we simply don't know all the answers is a good place to start!
Sincerely, Sev.
No doubt
Amen to what you have said.
Sev,
It is good to discuss the scriptures (as long as there is no disrespect and rudeness to one another) because that is where we will find all the answers, but it is not good when we argue. We can learn from one another if we encourage one another, and we must be long suffering and patient with one another. There is a vast difference between trying to 'trip someone up' and having a discussion, and I would not say that anyone has been trying to trip anyone else up in this discussion.
However, I think there comes a time to refrain from speaking on a particular subject when nothing else can be said on the subject.
Yes Sev. I'm serious about asking you those questions, please enlighten my understanding, since you you think that the answers are obvious.
You said that God is love, if you would believe that, then you should rather say that true love grows out of God, since He is love, rather than out of free will.
What can free will do? And what do you think that God says about free will?
Do you think because God is love therefore He cannot and does not HATE?
So the question still remains, what is love?
And please tell me where I'm contradicting myself?
Perhaps that is so with you 'ALWAYS SEEKING THE TRUTH' and never come to the knowledge of the truth.
But that is not so with me, I do know the truth and the truth has set me free.
Keith, you got a point there brother :-)
And I'm sure that all of us love and respect you to. Jesus said, that he who hates his brother is a murderer.
1 John 5:6-7)
If you read that carefully, you can see in verse 6, "This is the 'ONE' who came by water and blood Jesus Christ."
There is no need to look into any other dimension. All you need to do is to believe what the text says.
It simply says that this ONE God came as a man, by water and blood, just like you and me.
You said somewhere that you are not a trinitarian, if so, then you are supposed to stand with me against any form of trinitarianism and preach Jesus Christ to be that ONLY GOD (Jude 1:25) just as I do or better.
Issues are caused by not believing in Jesus Christ.
Also I like to say that again, there are NO ORIGINAL TEXTS.
All texts are copies of copies. The reason for that is that the Word of God is NOT Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek or Latin, but Spirit and truth.
Brenda;
A comment to your post on your blog, "Abraham believed God".
That is a good post, but the most important part is missing, and that is the testimony of Jesus Christ our Lord and God in your post.
As a believer in Jesus Christ it is your duty to put His Name into your post, so that everyone will know of which God you are talking about.
But as it is, the Muslims, Jews, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and Catholics etc. all think that you are talking about their god.
Believe me Brenda, their god is not my God and neither should their god be your God.
My God is the Lord Jesus Christ and He is a jealous God who does not tolerate you having another god next to Him, or put Him on the back burner so to speak.
I too am jealous with a godly jealousy that a believer in Jesus Christ of your caliber would not preach a God with no Name, leaving His Name out of your preaching, no matter what reason you might have.
This is not a debate so that you can have your point of view and I can have my point of view.
This debate is from the Lord, so that all of us who believe in Jesus would proclaim Jesus and magnify His wonderful Name in all our preaching posts and testimonies and NO OTHER.
We have not been going around in circles as you may think, in all my comments I have clearly demonstrated that you believe in two gods and that the Bible teaches one God and that God is Jesus Christ alone.
There is only one way out of this dilemma and that is called 'repentance'.
Yes I understand that repentance is a dirty word and no one likes it, but that is the command of our Lord for the removing of our sins.
Therefore I suggest that you make repentance your closest friend.
Paul
Hi Paul,
I apologize. I had deleted that comment because after reading it, it sounded too offensive and mean spirited. It was not meant to be read.
I also reafirm and agree that there is no trinity.
Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad.
It's not Biblical to chisel up God into different parts.
However, as I was attempting to say in the deleted comment, there is scriptural evidence of different aspects or dimensions of God, such as seen in I John 5:7, where it says,
"This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."
John then starts to break it down into the dimensionality of which I mentioned earlier.
God bears record in heaven of these things
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
In the same way that we are mind, body and spirit and Echad, God is mind(Father), body(Yeshua) and spirit(Holy Spirit) and Echad.
He is not three separate entities but multidimensional.
I like Tim's comment where he said that we go everywhere as body, mind and spirit not separately. God does the same thing.
However, this is where I stop and get off the bus and separate myself with Trinitarians. Most Trinitarians believe exactly what I stated. However, they are unable to comprehend that God is one mind, body and spirit and give them individual thought and action which is not biblical.
With that said, God also has the ability to extend himself into our reality and that is where Yeshua or Jesus comes in.
When God extends himself into our reality, he does it with a manifestation that can keep him separate from our sinful nature. That manifestation is 100% God (The Word of God, Yeshua, Jesus) and dwells within eternity. He is also 100% a physical manifestation in our reality and that is what is meant by 1 John 5:7 and then 1 John 5:8 as seen here:
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
He bares witness as God and the physical earthly witness of the Messiah.
That perfect physical manifestation of God went to the cross as the perfect sacrifice for our sins and fulfilled the Torah. That same physical manifestation still stands with and as God today. He is not separate entities but one, Echad.
In addition, I want to apologize again for what I wrote in my deleted comment that you were unable to comprehend or refuse to comprehend. It was the wrong thing to say. Please forgive me.
Finally, and as for the original text, you are 100% correct. However, there are more reliable text in which we find the truth.
Also, we find that certain versions of the Bible were deliberately modified to convey a certain belief system of the interpreter. One of those bibles, is unfortunately the most popular NIV version.
I can show show many instances where the NIV interpretors actually removed text, but that's for another time.
Brenda, I respect and I agree with almost everything you say, but...
In any event, I don't call the shots here, so feel free to go around in circles all day/night.
Also unlike some, I'm NOT going to pretend that I know ALL the answers, or disrespect and belittle others who have a different point of view.
Apologies if I've offended anyone by stating the obvious, but what matters most is the TRUTH ...whether you like it or not!
PS: At this stage I don't feel like playing this game, but with great interest I'll watch from the sideline.
All the Best, Sev.
Sev,
you have said that what matters most is the truth, and that is what this discussion is all about.
nice to meet you anyway.
Sev,
"In any event, I don't call the shots here, so feel free to go around in circles all day/night."
Sometimes, in races, you have to go in circles you achieve the goal. Isn't someone's salvation or edification worth getting out of your comfort zone?
"Also unlike some, I'm NOT going to pretend that I know ALL the answers, or disrespect and belittle others who have a different point of view.
I think you misunderstand what is going on here. This is a frank discussion of the issues. There is only one who thinks he has all the answers. That's Paul. :-) LOL
I'm kidding Paul.
Also, I think that you'll find that in order to maintain a level of civility towards each other, we are constantly backing up and apologizing for any possible infraction.
"Apologies if I've offended anyone by stating the obvious, but what matters most is the TRUTH ...whether you like it or not!"
I think I can honestly speak for everyone here that no feelings have been hurt, maybe some bumps and bruises, but that's life. I appreciate and welcome your concern.
"At this stage I don't feel like playing this game, but with great interest I'll watch from the sideline."
At least for me, I hope that you would reconsider and engage in the conversation for everyone's edification. Remember, the most important thing is your position in the Messiah, not necessarily your position on certain issues.
Shalom,
Keith
Sev,
I am sooo sorry for missing this in your earlier comment.
You said: "I know it's probably a strange question, but it's somewhat relevant I guess... problem is I have a lot of questions that I can't ask for fear, because I'm still unsure about what is/isn't blasphemy, what is/isn't forgivable."
As you have seen here, I could honestly go on and on concerning the subject of "what is/isn't blasphemy, what is/isn't forgivable."
I will try to keep it short. Thank God for our position in the Messiah. He has made it possible for everything to be forgiven except Blasphemy of the his Holy Spirit.
In a nutshell, steer clear of attributing anything of God to Satan or evil.
and remember 1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Other than that, let's stand on the ROCK together.
Shalom Aleichem,
Keith
Brother Keith, you don't need to worry about offending us, for love covers a multitude of sins. :-)
Remember that the gospel of Jesus Christ is an offence to all who are perish, and if we are seeking the praises of men, we would surely go to another blog where they only speak well of us, and you know the danger of that.
How do you think that Peter had felt, when Jesus his Lord turned around and said to Peter, "get behind me Satan." (Mat. 16:23), tell me was that offensive to Peter?
And when those of the Jews who believed in Jesus; Jesus told them that they were of their father the devil etc. (John 8:31 and 44). After that offence they surely didn't believe the Lord Jesus any more.
Now, if they took offence of the Lord Jesus, they surely will take offence by us, if we speak in His Name. And if we haven't offended anyone, then we haven't preached the gospel.
Keith, I do not see 1 John 5:7 to be dimensional, I am a very simple believer in Jesus Christ our Lord.
I know that the Holy Spirit is the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 3:17) without a physical body (John 4 :24), that was before His incarnation, He then had NO dimensions, that is because a Spirit does not have a dimension.
Only when Jesus became a man or was clothed in flesh, He then has three dimensions, width, hight and depth, just like you and I, after all, we have been created in His image.
Now the body of Jesus was water and blood (1 John 5:7), not just water but also blood because the life is in the blood, just like our bodies.
But the Lord Jesus is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17) who came in a body of water and blood so that we can look at God and not die.
The body is only the vehicle to carry us around on earth, but we really are spirit and soul.
Some brothers say that the spirit is the soul, I don't have a big problem with that explanation, but I like to stay close to the Scriptures.
Jesus who is the Spirit ( John 4 :24) has a soul (Isa.1:14) and a body just like you and I, NOT dimensional or separate parts or whatever.
You said to Sev., "Sometimes, in races, you have to go in circles you achieve the goal. Isn't someone's salvation or edification worth getting out of your comfort zone?"
Oh brother, I give you a big AMEN to that.
You also said, "There is only one who thinks he has all the answers. That's Paul. :-) LOL"
Thank you Keith for saying that:-) after 32 years walking closely with my Lord, surely one can expect to know everything or most, and if there is something I haven't thought of, I'm not to proud to ask, even you, if you happen to know it.
Paul,
"Only when Jesus became a man or was clothed in flesh, He then has three dimensions, width, height and depth, just like you and I, after all, we have been created in His image."
Just a glimpse into my world of thought...please follow your comment to Ephesians 3:17-19.
"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."
Notice that there are more than three dimensions mentioned here. That's all I'm saying...that God is more than what we see or perceive. To fully understand him, we must look beyond our limited existence.
As to how we correspond with each other, we both probably come across as mean sometimes. But that is not what is intended. First and foremost, we are B'nai Elohim, sons of God and we should be able to be frank and honest with each other.
Shalom Aleichem my Brother.
Well brother Keith, it seems to me that my mind is geared a little different to yours.
A short explanation how I see (Eph.3:17-19). To me love has no dimensions like ' breadth, and length, and depth, and height', that to me is a metaphorical language used to describe the amazing love of the Lord which surpasses knowledge.
If you have any other idea, then please explain to me, how long is God's love, and also how high is His love?
When I look to Jesus Christ, I see the fullness of God and there is nothing missing to God. The fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Jesus Christ my Lord and I am complete in Him.
You see, the deeper things of God are REVELATIONS and not dimensions.
Paul,
On the subject of God being more than meets the eye, we must agree to pray for each other that God opens our eyes to what he wants revealed. I would think that you would want to know the things that God has hidden for you to find and to know him fully. Oh well...in due time...in due time. He will explain it to us on the way up. :-)
As for interpreting the scripture metaphorically, it ok to have a metaphorical interpretation as long as it has an anchor in the literal. Jesus never interpreted scripture metaphorically, he always interpreted scripture literally before entering the metaphorical. I would hope that you would follow his example.
"Puritan Belief" has been included in the A Sunday Drive for this week. Be assured that I hope this help to point even more new visitors in your direction.
http://asthecrackerheadcrumbles.blogspot.com/2014/03/a-sunday-drive_23.html
I'm glad to hear from you brother Jerry.
It has been a long time.
Thank you for taking the time to check out my blog and for the encouraging comment! I appreciate it!
-Alyssia
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